I have searched for a while for how to convert color spaces, but run into things like BBC white papers and such that talk about the science and such, and nothing that gives FCPX settings or other such usable information. Do you have any handy links that could assist? If converting color space involves any "grading", then "I'm out". I am still not able to figure out how to export an SDR REC709 file out of my REC709 HLG camera files...that is pretty sad in itself :-\

The HDR to SDR REC709 HDR Tool effect in FCPX seems to be tailored for converting PQ into SDR 709, not HLG. Resolve is worlds ahead of FCPX in HLG compatibility. Cannot understand why FCPX cannot export HDR Metadata in HLG...as indicated by it's little exclamation mark popup warnings when attempting to do so.

Paul

Resolve is worlds ahead of FCPX in HLG compatibility.
True, but they got to keep on moving.

NAB 2018 may show some new HDR goodies in Resolve, the update cycle has been quiet for awhile ;)

FCPX always seems to be 6-12+ months behind in anything useful. HLG in FCPX is more of an afterthought, meant to just check an HLG box. The new free Resolve 14 does a lot the old 12 didn't do, like export in 4K. So many color management options to play with, perhaps one will match my needed settings. I believe HLG conversion to HDR10 (normal PQ HDR) should be considered pretty mandatory for these programs. The camera companies are putting HLG in new consumer grade gear, so true "Instant GDR" that is other than plugging your HDMI cable into your brand new 2017+ HLG TV would be helpful.

Paul

Shot another HLG clip, but this time in HDR friendly 10 bit 4:2:2 HLG, using 720p60. I specifically shot this to try to highlight intense light at a dark scene...so I picked a lot of angles with lights shining into the lens. First clip is raw HLG upload, the second clip is HLG to PQ (HDR10) conversion. I still have an issue with using these clips for normal SDR REC709, as I can get levels looking correct, but their is an overwhelming amount of grain and noise across the entire image. This wasn't an important story, so SDR to air quality wasn't a big concern.

Paul

HLG
https://youtu.be/Ip0GWn8brVQ

HDR10
https://youtu.be/MCqZeB9FxCc

Another HLG to HDR10 Z90 file, this time in 1080p60. Picture profile was out of the box HLG/BT2020, no color corrections or other alterations to the factory picture profile. No grading performed, just dropped onto timeline and converted to PQ HDR10.

I also
figured out how to process HLG/BT2020 into SDR/REC709 in FCPX. Project set as REC709. Color space override set to BT2020. Export out and you get the normally saturated REC709 version. I guess the color space override conforms the clip within the project color space, which in my case was a REC709 project.

https://youtu.be/CbCr2u5ww14

https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/professional-cameras/broadcast-instant-hdr-workflow

Sony's in depth step by step guide to working with HLG. Ignore the fact that the text spouts "without needing grading" and every example is specified as being heavily graded.

Another...I could almost use the HLG mode full time, if not for the fact that it kind of requires grading to bring down the blacks and mids slightly for SDR, to not look like a greyed out mess in the shadows. It also may handle highlights better...clipping is the same, but seems like it is able to see more in the area that would normally be assigned knee response, is in HLG assigned a log function. On the below clip, if you are seeing it in SDR on YouTube, the police lights that are flooding the back of the car...typically, in normal REC709, I would be expecting those to be a washed out overexposed white area...but they hold a lot of detail in the HLG conversion.

https://youtu.be/bpgqJQo7BU4

Another one. Noticing, even in 720p, HLG originated footage, used in HDR or REC709 renders, looks excessively noisy, especially in the shadows...like at least a 6db drop in s/n ratio.

https://youtu.be/qH2F1HRB1k0

Another 4K one.

https://youtu.be/2snfr1ocJhc

Paul

Here is a pretty colorful daytime HDR file I just shot for fun. :)

The 10bit 4:2:2 codec really can STRETCH...even with the REC709 EVF assist, it was hard to determine exposure of the bright sky...everything I shot looked blown out, but I could gain it up a long way still before seeing zebras. Back in FCPX, I found I could pull the gamma down A LOT and still looked good, blue gained a lot of color.

Paul

https://youtu.be/TEvV98LojZg

OK, so an update. I bought a brand new 2018 Sony X900F HLG capable 4K HDR TV set, so that I could see my HLG footage in original unmolested unconverted HLG glory...or so I thought. Every HLG exported timeline, be it FCPX or Resolve, with all settings retaining all HLG with no alterations, resulted in pathetic inaccurate video files, that looked like raw slog. I gave up on that, and thought, hey, just plug the camera directly into the TV and see what HLG looks like...yeah, didn't work. Brand new Sony HLG camera and brand new HLG TV...the TV does NOT recognize the HMDI output of the PXW-Z90 as an HLG/HDR signal, and as such, it looks horrid. I can though manually switch the TV into HLG mode for the input, which I did, but all this did was increase the backlight to maximum, and the image was still a washed out colorless log looking grainy disappointment. Switching the TV to HDR10 mode even looked better, but still did not look as you would expect. The TV was set to enhanced mode, the camera was set to HDMI 2160/1080p output.

So my final thoughts on Sony "instant HDR" workflow...well, there is still nothing instant about it, and the ONLY workflow I can make usable is to AQUIRE in HLG, and DELIVER in HDR10. If you know about HLG, then this would seem backwards, as you are not supposed to shoot in HLG, as HLG is supposed to be a delivery format. If I had a way to grade in HDR, I would play around with Slog3, but I don't know the first thing about grading slog, even in SDR. All HDR10 material starts life as slog type footage or film...RAW too, so not sure what Sony was going for with this "instant HDR" marketing ploy.

See the below link "if you plug in said camera to a 4K TV with HLG HDR support, it will immediately play it back with the appropriate contrast and tones, including the brighter highlights and increased contrast that make HDR so appealing. This ability is also what makes this an “instant” HDR workflow"

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/understanding-hlg-and-instant-hdr-workflows/BI/2855/KBID/3801

Paul

What are your settings in Resolve, both your color managed settings and the output codec.

Color managed by Resolve, all three selectors to HLG 2100, luminance output turned on.

Paul

Color managed by Resolve, all three selectors to HLG 2100, luminance output turned on.

If you destination is HLG you should not tone-map.

What codec did you use?

Oh crap, maybe thats why it looks better when viewed in HDR10 mode. I need to buy a cheap HDR/HDMI output device so I can see what is happening prior to several hours worth of encoding a file just to see the results.

Typically use ProRes, so that I can Handbrake it into 10 bit HEVC.

Paul

Oh crap, maybe thats why it looks better when viewed in HDR10 mode. I need to buy a cheap HDR/HDMI output device so I can see what is happening prior to several hours worth of encoding a file just to see the results.

Typically use ProRes, so that I can Handbrake it into 10 bit HEVC.

I personally find x264 using high10 or high422 in an mkv container easier all you need to do is to re-encode your encoded mov file with this:

ffmpeg -i file.mov -c:v libx264 -profile:v high422 -crf 14 -color_primaries bt2020 -colorspace bt2020_ncl -color_trc arib-std-b67 file.mkv

Im trying to find the easiest way to view my darn files on my TV, which has limitations on what codecs it supports. Trying another Resolve export with tone mapping set to off, then a quick conversion to 10 bit h264 in HandBrake to see the results.

Paul

Im trying to find the easiest way to view my darn files on my TV, which has limitations on what codecs it supports. Trying another Resolve export with tone mapping set to off, then a quick conversion to 10 bit h264 in HandBrake to see the results.

But I would make sure the metadata is added as well: -color_primaries bt2020 -colorspace bt2020_ncl -color_trc arib-std-b67

Speaking of metadata, here is what FCPX says when you attempt to export an HLG project. I think the term "not ready for primetime" applies here. :-|

I also attempted an HLG ARIB STD-B67 export out of Resolve, tone mapping off, and it came out extremely dark.

Paul

I also attempted an HLG ARIB STD-B67 export out of Resolve, tone mapping off, and it came out extremely dark.

Assuming you exposed it properly it should be just right for a monitor or TV that is HLG compatible.

How are you watching this?

Are you trying to upload an HLG video or are you trying to convert a HLG video to Rec.709?

Footage was exposed using the Z90 built in EVF/LCD gamma adjust settings. I am watching these files plugged into the USB jack of my Sony 4K TV. There is no other means to view HLG for me other than HEVC through the USB, or ChromeCast Ultra after uploading to YouTube.

As for exposure, these HLG files, when converted to HDR10 (PQ) in FCPX, looked perfectly fine and have normal shadows and midtones, with extended bright colorful highlights up to 1000 nit. Nothing I have attempted so far in passthrough HLG looks right. I would say it ends up looking the same on the HLG TV as it does on my SDR computer monitors, washed out and grainy.

I found out how to properly export REC709 from HLG BT2020 in FCPX...you must set the files to REC2020 colorspace override in the settings info menu...the rest of the project/timeline is left as REC709. Doesn't look quite as good as native REC709, but close enough you would have to know the camera to really tell.

Paul

Can you show me a screen grab of the RGB parade?

This is HLG2100 timeline, ignore the previous ARIB reference in the export window. I don't know how to read these values, I am used to IRE and NIT from FCPX.

Paul

Same clip scope view in FCPX.

And FCPX when conformed to PQ using standard HDR tools effect.

This is HLG2100 timeline, ignore the previous ARIB reference in the export window. I don't know how to read these values, I am used to IRE and NIT from FCPX.
Paul
What happened to your blacks and shadows? For any night scene you must have close to 0 IRE blacks.

The way to Read the built-in Resovel parade and waveform is to ignore the numbers and consider 0 as black and 1023 as white. You can switch the scopes to use nits in HDR in the user preferences.

It looks like everything is raised. Highlights looked clipped, is this a straight out of camera video or in any way processed with LUTs or transcoded?

You are looking at the raw clips on the timeline, no grading or correcting, only conformed as noted. Yeah, this is what HLG looks like in any way I touch it, like washed out log footage. Again...if I conform it to HDR10 (PQ) in FCPX, it comes out with great contrast, looking light a nice REC709 clip with colors that pop and highlights that peak at a real 1000nit. My HDR10 exports also include no grading, and look even worse on the SDR viewer, but on an HDR TV, they look correct.

Here is what the Resolve exported HLG2100 file looks like on my Sony HLG TV...and the TV did kick into HLG HDR when playing this file. The highlights are excessively low, like 100IRE low on my 1000nit TV at max backlight. :(

Here is the raw HLG conformed to REC709 with no grading, which looks the same as if I had shot it in REC709 SDR as you can see...a bit noisier thanks to HLG though. If conformed to HDR10 (PQ), that streetlight would be like a laser beam shooting out of my TV set.

Paul

Yeah, this is what HLG looks like in any way I touch it, like washed out log footage.
Well that's a problem, did you enable some black level setup in your camera?

Note that the scopes in resolve work in float32, that means regardless if the video clip is video or data level the scope should show all values between black and white (super whites and blacks while not clipped are not shown on the Resovle scopes.

Could you share the mediainfo of the clip?
https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

These clips are standard PXW-Z90 HLG/BT2020 with no other alterations to the picture profile settings.

Paul

These clips are standard PXW-Z90 HLG/BT2020 with no other alterations to the picture profile settings.

Paul
The problem is those scope readings have black start at 64 (10- bit) for HLG they should start at 0 in Resolve (I am aware that in other software this may be different) in case of a night shot.
You are absolutely sure they are not log shots?

Confirmed, I don't ever shoot in log. I also find that he Z90 black level is always a few IRE above 0...if you close the iris and put the lens cap on, record a completely black clip, it will show above the 0IRE mark.

Paul

Every professional Sony camera I've ever used has elevated black levels at around +2 to +3 IRE. The first paint menu that needs to be changed when you take a new camera out of the box is to drop the master black level on a Sony camera so that the a waveform sits right at zero with the lens cap on. That one change makes all the difference.

Every professional Sony camera I've ever used has elevated black levels at around +2 to +3 IRE. The first paint menu that needs to be changed when you take a new camera out of the box is to drop the master black level on a Sony camera so that the a waveform sits right at zero with the lens cap on. That one change makes all the difference.
Looking at the chart it is a lot higher than that for Paul's camera, black pretty much starts at 64 (10 bit levels). Now for software that scopes super whites and blacks that is exactly right but not for Resolve (and also for Premiere), both video and data levels are mapped the same way between 0 and 1023, super whites and blacks are not normally shown on the scopes.

It's rather strange if this came straight out of camera.

Every professional Sony camera I've ever used has elevated black levels at around +2 to +3 IRE. The first paint menu that needs to be changed when you take a new camera out of the box is to drop the master black level on a Sony camera so that the a waveform sits right at zero with the lens cap on. That one change makes all the difference.


Agreed Doug, I can CONFIRM this. ON my PMW320, and the PXWX320, the master black level must be set to -2 for the black to sit on the 0IRE line. Same for the X70/Z90/Z150...I tend to leave mine stock, because honestly, most viewers of our news don't calibrate their TV's, and run dynamic contrast, so they typically have monitors with way too low black levels. I think that's probably why Sony pushes the cameras out like this.

On my Z90, I found I need to set the master black to maximum -15 just to get shadows and blacks to not look elevated in daylight video. Even with gamma assist I find it hard to shoot in HLG, exposure in daylight is difficult to determine, not hard at night though. Zebras don't work in HLG...I mean they work, but not as expected or in any predictable manner...Doug?

Paul

On the Resolve media page set the clip attribute data levels to 'video'. Black should now be at 0 IRE for a clip you shot in HLG.

Looking at the chart it is a lot higher than that for Paul's camera, black pretty much starts at 64 (10 bit levels).

Look at the RH side of the Resolve WFM. Blacks are at 0.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul,

1.) In Resolve Project Settings - Color Management:

- Color Science - DaVinci YRGB Color Managed
- Check the box for 'Use Separate Color Space and Gamma'
- Set Input Color Space to 'Bypass'
- Set Timeline Color Space to Rec.2020 - ARIB STD-B67 HLG
- Set Output to Rec.2020 - ARIB STD-B67 HLG

2.) On the media page:

- Right click on clip
- Set Attribute Data Level to 'Video'.
- Set Input Color Space to 'Bypass'

3.) On the render page - Advanced Settings:
- Set the Data Levels to 'Full'.

Proceed with the render.

Zebras don't work in HLG...I mean they work, but not as expected or in any predictable manner...Doug?

I have zero interest in HLG right now and consider it a complete waste of time, but with that said, I have no doubt that zebras could easily be used to set exposure.

Look at the RH side of the Resolve WFM. Blacks are at 0.

That is just some noise, the overall black level is way too high.


3.) On the render page - Advanced Settings:
- Set the Data Levels to 'Full'.

HLG requires video levels.

Look at the RH side of the Resolve WFM. Blacks are at 0.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul,

1.) In Resolve Project Settings - Color Management:

- Color Science - DaVinci YRGB Color Managed
- Check the box for 'Use Separate Color Space and Gamma'
- Set Input Color Space to 'Bypass'
- Set Timeline Color Space to Rec.2020 - ARIB STD-B67 HLG
- Set Output to Rec.2020 - ARIB STD-B67 HLG

2.) On the media page:

- Right click on clip
- Set Attribute Data Level to 'Video'.
- Set Input Color Space to 'Bypass'

3.) On the render page - Advanced Settings:
- Set the Data Levels to 'Full'.

Proceed with the render.

OK, finished a quick low quality test clip using the Resolve settings you provided, looks much better. I found that on my PC spitting out normal SDR 8 bit RGB, that if I switch the TV to HLG mode, I get the same HDR picture as playing the file back through my TV via USB...that's nifty. So I might have a bit too much black crush? Here is the clip on YouTube, tell me what you think...it looked brighter when I shot it, and the shadows are brighter, but noisy, on the raw. I also included a side by side of a Resolve export FULL vs VIDEO levels on the render setting as the only difference. The YouTube version is FULL on render output.

Additionally, the settings you provided produce a file that plays back looking like a normal REC709 on an SDR screen, and HDR on HLG enabled monitor, so that is good. :-)

Paul

https://youtu.be/lgybEArn32E

Great news Paul! Thanks for posting the clip, looks excellent.

THANK YOU TOM...looks like you posted the "secret sauce" that makes it possible to work in Sony HLG...at least in Resolve. Seems FCPX is totally incapable of properly dealing with HLG at this time. Not surprising there, they are always way behind.

Paul

Using a Sony PXW-Z90, I set PP1 as SDR REC709 manual knee, and PP2 as HDR HLG/709 auto knee (auto knee required for HLG). I then turned gain to max 33db, started pointing at things that would blow out and clip the highlights, and toggled between PP1 and PP2. I laid the clip on a standard SDR REC709 timeline, and exported without any grading or color space changes, as it was set to 709 instead of BT2020 under HLG color space selector. As you can see, the HLG1 (Sony 87%) PP just sees things that the REC709 doesn't. Exposure was locked down, so no exposure changes were happening when I toggled the PP's, you are seeing the HLG gamma doing some sort of magic...W.O.W.

https://youtu.be/IDGM11NSoFM

Hi Paul,
I know this is an old thread however, did you find any advantage using HLG on Z90 vs Cine 4 or Cine 2 for your style of work.

I've just started shooting HLG3 on my Sony A7III with excellent results and I also use my Z90 in Cine 4 with Doughs profile, I know these are completely different cameras, so was wondering about your results with the Z90.
Cheers mate

Not playing around with HLG any longer. The black level on the Z90 in HLG ios too high, and I am not motivated to figure out how to set it properly. I did slightly play around with creating an HLG calibration for my Sony HDR TV with a meter, but the lack of real time HDR/HLG output without spending $500 makes it a real PITA to do even simple grading right.

Anything that I shoot in HLG to output as REC709 always looks pretty bad, specifically because the black levels are all wrong, too high, looks bad. The monitor on my Macbook has such a high black level and bad contrast it's not really possible to grade blacks or shadows on it.

Paul

Thanks for that info mate, this is what I also found however I needed a second opinion.

HLG is designed to be used ONLY for "live" output and broadcasting with 10-bit cameras. It is not intended for processing in post and it is not intended for 8-bit video.

HLG is designed to be used ONLY for "live" output and broadcasting with 10-bit cameras. It is not intended for processing in post.....
That's just sheer nonsense.

It's right in Sony's own documentation. Look it up.

I have to say that using shooting HLG on my Sony A7III and delivering this as rec709 via FCPX has resulted in the best looking footage I've got outa that camera to date with the least amount of post grading work.