Sony has announced three new 4K camcorders:

Sony Unveils First Camcorders with Phase-detection AF at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/sony-unveils-first-camcorders-with-phase-detection-af.html)

No UHD 60P. Fail.

No UHD 60P. Fail.

Agree. I think Sony now is the only manufacturer without a 50/60P UHD camera in this class of camcorders with Canon and Panasonic having products in the class/price range. Pity since Sony was the first with the FDR-AX1 ( which I have and have been waiting for a nice upgrade ) and the PXW-Z100. They do not even have 50/60P UHD on the FS5. Not sure what their thinking is on this topic as it is clearly left off deliberately on all their lower priced models for camcorders and still cameras. I gave up waiting and bought the GH5 !!!

But, I don't think the Canon and Panasonic competition have 422 10-bit in any mode and don't have a Log option.

So it depends on what one's needs and priorities are.

Yup, I'm moving my recommendations to Canon and Panasonic now.

I bet the next A7S/R III will also be limited to 30p. They're now standing to lose a lot of market share.

Adding this vid to the press release (link in first post).

https://youtu.be/wNacyT3E91w

But, I don't think the Canon and Panasonic competition have 422 10-bit in any mode and don't have a Log option.

So it depends on what one's needs and priorities are.

Yes I understand that. The X90 is only 4:2:2 10 bit in HD but for UHD it is the same as all the others 4:2:0 8 bit. So if the focus is UHD it is at a disadvantage. I think the Canon XF405 has 4:2:2 10 bit from the SDI or HDMI outputs though.

No surprises with this latest from Sony. It was just the other day Sony recovered from a very serious life-threatening lack of profitability situation. They recovered due to looking hard at the various business bottom lines. They made it quite clear that cameras and camcorders would not receive serious R&D funding unless there was a compelling business case to do so. Clearly they have not been able to generate a compelling business case and that's hardly surprising to me.

Regarding cameras and camcorders they are seemingly in milk mode (other than higher priced full frame models). Take existing components off the shelf, tweak things here and there, no R&D, give it a new name, some but not a lot of promo and get what they can.

Panasonic, and now perhaps Canon, is where the action is.

Forget Sony; when it comes to cameras and camcorders they are elsewhere, like yesterday, and rightfully so in my opinion. Gone are the glory days of the EX1 and the NEX-7.

There are two things Sony guards with their life; 4k 60p and 4k 10bit. They are deathly affraid to put it on any camera below the FS7.

Ridiculas....

Coming from an AX100 I'm ready for an upgrade. I was sold on the XF400 until this announcement. No 60p is very disappointing but then i remembered my lack luster experience with the Canon XF300 & HF G30. They weren't horrible, but i wasn't blown away either. I"ve yet to find a YouTube video on the XF series that will change my opinion on this. You can throw the XC10 in with this assessment too.

The early footage from the XF400 has me a little worried that this trend will continue. It's not even on par with the AX100. So it's looking like the NX80 will win this battle for me and i'll just have to deal with the lack of 60p. I know I can get a GH5 but i prefer the ergonomics of a camcorder for run & gun plus it's still not a match for my NX1 (until the firmware upgrade at least).

XF400 Pros
Dual Pixel AF, 60p, 15X Zoom, Hardware ND Filter switch, Max Bit Rate 150 & upcoming codec upgrade, 5 Axis OIS

NX80 Pros
Full sensor readout, OLED Touchscreen, HLG, $700 less than XF 400, can use my existing batteries

On paper the XF400 wins so I hope the footage stands up, but he full sensor readout of the Sony and Canon's history of soft unflattering footage has me leaning heavily toward the NX80. I'm not trying to spend a lot of time in my NLE editing I need great footage right out the camera.

What good is 4K/60p if the image is subpar?

I have an XA20 and a CX900 right now.

I have to say I really prefer the control layout on the body of the Sony over the Canon.

So just based on that, I'll probably go with the new Sony's. For what I do, I don't need 60p in 4K. At least I can't see why I would need it....

^That is setting up a dangerous trend, my friend. Most broadcast IPTV based 4K right now that isn't live is 4K 30p. (Like the Stingray 4K channels) We may be growing up in a generation that won't know what true 60hz content is if this dangerous trend continues. Bravo to Canon and Panasonic for at least trying.

Sony finally updated the AX100 (not sure what happened to AX200-600!? Maybe someone at Sony thinks "7" is their lucky #?), adding a few features, but most importantly going to a current generation sensor (after skipping several versions that appeared in other cameras). Not going to be running out to get one right away (I'm happy with a couple RX10M2/M3s for now!), but should be a good upgrade for the focus features and newer gen 1" class sensor.


Speculation on why 30p - Sony has always struggled with heat issues, going from 30 to 60p might add just enough to the heat generation to cause problems... if that's the case, not much can be done until they get some engineers to beat that bugger!

Other possible reasons... 60p requires faster memory cards, and Sony has been bitten in the backside by all the fake/counterfeit cards out there that cause the camera to malfunction, customers blame the camera instead of the cheap a** cards they bought. I've seen some speculation that marginal memory cards can add to the heat issues as well.... again, camera gets blamed, cheap a** memory gets a pass...

Here's a crazy possibility... IF Sony sees these cameras (and the RX10's) not selling because of the lack of 60p, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they could release (and dammit, they SHOULD, if the hardware can handle it) a firmware update as they have with the RX's and earlier AX that would magically enable 60p with some specific crazy fast memory cards (and of course ONLY those cards) - you want 60p, you have to buy the expensive memory cards (like that's really such a hardship on a $2K camera!?!).


I know we all would like to so 60p become the standard (my low end 4K TV's only do 30hz), but sometimes technology has limits that we don't see on our side of the fence. Of course there have been some challenges shooting 30p, but once you get a handle on lower shutter speeds, it's not really that bad on the shooting side of the game, and the output looks phenomenal, plus these sensors also produce 1080/60p that will look pretty good on a 4K screen. Most people would not be able to spot the difference between HD and 4K, and would consider the detail of the HD to be sufficient in many cases. There is a difference in quality of "HD", and if the HD you're shooting is very sharp and clear due to everything else the camera is capable of, it will "look" much like 4K.

I suspect that the lack of 60p4k is not a technical problem for Sony. I think its way more of a "political" problem inside Sony.

Look,....Sony easily has the technology and processing know-how to do 60p and 10bit on any camera it "wants" to. However, they lack the "will" to do it. I strongly suspect that its the Sony Pro marketing managers that are protesting any "consumer" level camera to step onto their 10bit and/or 60p turf.

I'd bet a thousand bucks that Sony engineers would love to do 60p and/or 10bit on a $2500 camera but they are getting shot down by higher decision makers.

The only way Sony would do 60p and/or 10bit would be if an exec very high up in Sony would step in and demand it.

Look,...Panasonic does 60p, 10bit with no heat problems...probably buying Sony sensor and 6k scaling algorithms. Their managers happily pay for those chips and turn those switches on while Sony is against doing it.

Its politics, not technical problems.

"No 60p for you!"
Whether it's technical issues or feature rationing, doesn't matter really. If the camera doesn't do what you need, you don't buy it. I'm leaning towards technical issues on this one, based on the fact that my little FDR-X3000 DOES overheat, and shut down. Goes over 120 deg. Also, folks say they can see image degradation on the FDR-AX100 when shooting 120fps vs normal 30fps. So, the bits per pixel ratio drops in HFR mode and why is that? Chipset can't read out the full sensor fast enough? Heat management and the data pipeline are limiting factors in other cameras, why wouldn't they be with the newest little handycams? On the flipside, yes, I'd agree that Sony has made design choices to either distinguish between the camera classes or to provide an additional revenue stream, such as when they totally rework the friggin' hot shoe or remote/LANC interface, or go to a totally different battery pack for no apparent reason. Want 4K 60p? Scrape together $12K and get a FS7.

Mark

OF course Sony has the technology they did it first on my FDR-AX1 and the PXW-Z100. This is purely marketing. So I made my decision and bought a GH5 and will sell most of my Sony cameras in time.I have AX53 and AX100 that since I only like to shoot 60P are just used as HD cameras and I like both for what they are. Would love to have had the AX53 with 60PUHD. I am waiting for Panasonic to bring out a FZ3500 with UHD 60P !!! The Panasonic WiFi app is also far superior to the Sony too. Very disappointing after being a Sony user for years since VHS days.

I totally agree that Sony could do consumer and prosumer 4k 60p as has Panasonic, and yes, it is a marketing decision not to go down that road the reason being such a venture would require significant R&D input and at the end of the day would not generate the required profit. It's probably no more complicated than that. They can only just pull off 4k 30p with existing technology, some would even say, me included, their current 4k 30p doesn't really cut it.

Customer focus is all well and good - provide what the customer wants - but if the business case does not deliver then these days it is not going to happen. I don't fault them for being business-like. Inadequate profit means a slow but sure death for corporations such as Sony.

I too have been Sony since the beginning but now after too many frustrations and disappointments I've gone elsewhere.

You can add one more to that list of 4K 60p capable prosumer cameras... This one is under $600.

GoPro.

The Hero 6 will support 4K 60p, and none of Sony's options close to that price range will.

Move on people. Most everyone is right when they say Sony's golden days of the EX1 are long gone. I predict they will have no 4K 60p competition in the prosumer market even at next year's IBC.

I totally agree that Sony could do consumer and prosumer 4k 60p as has Panasonic, and yes, it is a marketing decision not to go down that road the reason being such a venture would require significant R&D input and at the end of the day would not generate the required profit. It's probably no more complicated than that. They can only just pull off 4k 30p with existing technology, some would even say, me included, their current 4k 30p doesn't really cut it.

Customer focus is all well and good - provide what the customer wants - but if the business case does not deliver then these days it is not going to happen. I don't fault them for being business-like. Inadequate profit means a slow but sure death for corporations such as Sony.

I too have been Sony since the beginning but now after too many frustrations and disappointments I've gone elsewhere.

R&D costs?, nah....there are non, really. Sony engineers could do that overnight with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind their back. Its really zero technical problem for them and would not create a significant cost for them. This is 100% politics only.

Now,....we all know what Sony is updating next that uses this same technology. First, it was the RX100-IV, then the RX10-IV, now the new Z90/NX80. Whats next? The $3200 Z150 will get these same guts added to prolly a Z170. We ALL see this comming a mile away. Prolly NAB 2018 if not sooner.

Now, the Z150 does have an actively cooled body. "Maybe" Sony is saving 60p 4k for this model? Im betting these three are just too cheap to justify 60p. However, this new "Z-170"? Possibly could have 60p because it will likely be a $3500 camera with these PDAF gutts installed. $3500 could be a happier price point for Sony marketing geniuses to accept.

I do not expect cheap for UHD60P. Several years ago when I bought the FDR-AX1 is was $4500. By the time I got my GH5, lens, XLR unit etc , batteries etc it too was almost $4000. My real surprise was the fact Sony did not put UHD60P on the FS5 because I would have bought one. They missed the opportunity for me and likely lots of others too. I am not surprised with the current cameras I am just upset they have not introduced a range with UHD60P and charged appropriately for it. Like Cliff I do not feel it is R&D costs or anything like that. Since they were very early into UHD/4K they have had the technology for a long time. I believe it is pure marketing.

You can add one more to that list of 4K 60p capable prosumer cameras... This one is under $600.

GoPro.

The Hero 6 will support 4K 60p, and none of Sony's options close to that price range will.

Move on people. Most everyone is right when they say Sony's golden days of the EX1 are long gone. I predict they will have no 4K 60p competition in the prosumer market even at next year's IBC.

I guess you do not keep up with the action cam market. The Yi 4K+ does 4K60P, and it is $339 and has been out for months, and it is the same size as the GoPros. And it does not overheat (the GoPros overheat terribly). And the quality is better than the current GoPros. Check the action cam forum here.

The key is having a new processor. The new one in the Yi 4K+ is 14nm, much smaller and energy efficient than past processors. If you cram a processor into a small space and there is no fan, it has to be very efficient. It is not clear that Sony has developed such processors, since in none of their small cameras (RX100, A6500, A7's) is there a 4K60P ability, and they all tend to overheat even at 4K30p.

There are ways to reduce or eliminate the well documented and known HEAT problems, going to 14nm if they are using older fab tech would definitely be one approach....

Sony could bring a camera to MARKET, but if there's overheating issues, it goes back against the brand, as we all well know! So, not a single shred of "politics", just a matter of Sony engineers presenting a cost effective solution that DOES NOT HAVE HEAT PROBLEMS.

Could they... YES... have they... NO!



The RX100M5 with the hack will go about 8 minutes (of 4K30p) before it overheats and shuts down to self protect - that is with the latest sensor that is in these new releases, or an early iteration thereof. The RX10M3, with it's larger body and one generation older 1" class sensor will run fine with the hack til the battery drains under the same conditions...

There may be cost constraints, and we will see 4K60p from Sony in time (and I can shoot with my current 4K30p cameras until that time, with excellent results, IMO). With both Canon and Panny offering "larger sensor" 4K60p, Sony really dropped the ball on leadership in a category they pioneered, and have OWNED for several years. I don't know whether recapturing that leadership would come from just ONE feature (60p), it would appear that the fast focus capability was deemed to be the "knockout" feature for these 2017 1" class sensor releases.....

I still have to wonder if they can, with further "tweaking", issue a firmware update that would squeeze 60p out of this generation of sensor/processor... the RX100M5 would seem to suggest that the heat issue prevents it, but....

Ron, I believe we might be saying the same thing, other than the need for R&D to bring 4k 60p to the consumer/prosumer market. I presume that when you say 'pure marketing' you mean the decision to not compete with Panasonic and others in this market is driven by the marketing people within Sony.

It is well documented that the 4k implemented in the AX100, the RX series and other models suffer from crippled EFV's and LCD's and in some models serious overheating occurs, all said to be because of over-stressed power needs, rightly or wrongly. I won't get into a discussion regarding components that might or might not be problematic as that's way outside my core competency but it is my perhaps overly simplistic, perhaps naive thinking, that there is a problem using off the shelf components designed for HD and shoehorning them into a 4k environment.

Be that as it may the bottom line in successful corporations these days is indeed determined by the marketing department, and I can agree that might well be called pure marketing. Let me add somewhat in jest, that it was impure marketing that got Sony into the deep trouble they experienced not that long ago. Being somewhat familiar with how large corporations operate these days I have no doubt that before one wheel is turned, one penny of R&D spent, to expand an existing market or enter a new market a business case is conducted.

Along with my colleagues I have sat around the table drinking way too much coffee (now retired but still drinking way too much coffee) deep drilling into the numbers and sometimes unceremoniously killing a project stone dead before you could say Jack Robinson simply because the numbers did not meet the corporate profit requirements no matter how sexy the project looked before the number crunching. Pure marketing indeed. It has to be that way or my colleagues and I would be out on the street sooner rather than later and new product development would come to a complete standstill because of lack of funding required to bring the project forward.

Pure marketing means meeting profit goals set by top management along with meeting and exceeding customer needs. But make no mistake, if the profit goals are not met the customer ceases to exist, so to speak.

Yes I understand marketing as I spent a lot of my professional career in marketing and also R&D before I retired. The strange thing for me about Sony as I mentioned is that they did the R&D a long while back or they would not have been able to make the FDR-AX1 that I still have. It uses XQD cards rather than SD but I will forgive them for that as at the time getting fast SD cards was likely not that easy. However fast SD cards were available when the FS5 became available but still did not include the technology they had several years before for the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100. Maybe marketing was protecting the FS7 market for those people who wanted UHD/4K 60P. Nice move but the business case was lost to Panasonic for the DVX200 and later the UX180 and HC-X1 and now of course the Canons. Sony had/has the technology and the great marketing minds seem to be giving it to Panasonic and Canon. They still do not have a replacement for the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100, 3 ring ENG style 4K/UHD cameras that have now been discontinued and effectively replaced by the Panasonic HC-X1 and UX180. Good business case !!!

All too true. Somewhat puzzling I agree however I am disinclined to believe that the marketing management at the Sony helm are stupid, idiots, incompetent or asleep at the wheel.

In my somewhat uninformed opinion Sony have in their wisdom with the aid of numerous business case studies decided to quietly milk away and in due course exit the market that is our subject. If true, vexing for us for sure, but I just bet dollars to donuts that that decision, cool and highly calculated, has been deep drilled, kicked to death by some of the ablest minds in the business. My guess, belief, is that lack of profitability in this sector versus better profitability in other sectors determined where Sony would invest for the future.

We must look beyond our immediate frustrations and seek to understand the big picture regarding the direction that the tools of the trade are taking.

Yes, the lack of 60p is the same reason why no 10bit in 4k is available on camras below the FS7 )and the other model that uses a cell phone sensor.)

These things are not accidents and are not technical hurdles. Sony is performing a "calculated action". They believe these cameras will sell fine without 60p.

Camera marketing people are funny. When a new camera comes out, they have a certain number of units in mind to sell. If they sell that predicted number than they are perfectly happy. If they sell way MORE than they anticipate?...they begin to say "Oh no....what higher camera lost sales because of this thing' sucess?"

Many camera companies try to ride a very fine marketing line. Sell lots of cheap cameras but not so many that it begins to hurt more expensive model sales!

By the way...The Z-150 today has a cooling fan. I always wondered why the body was built that way when we know the 1inch-type sensors dont get hot inside any normal sized body. Unless 60p is planned for this Z-150 body (Z-170) in the future. Or....it can already do 60p now but they have it locked at 30p today.

Not sure what the thinking is but if lack of resources is the issue why introduce 3 cameras with very similar specs, new sensors and electronics all I am sure capable of UHD 60P and leave it off the list. Has to be market segmentation issues either agreements with other suppliers/competitors or between divisions internally. I am convinced it is not technical.

It looks remarkably like milk mode to me. Three so called new camcorders and the RX10 version IV same old same old. Milk mode I reckon.

I agree; it's not lack of technical capability. Seems to me Sony are executing a planned long term strategic exit from this market segment and you well may be correct about deals with other manufacturers.

Whatever, for me this is now academic as the way things are looking new product wise my run with Sony gear is over.

A couple things still bother me about the technical/marketing debate:

Sony makes a 4K 60P prosumer camera 4 years ago (FDR-AX1) and now they've had a change of heart and are withholding that feature? That camera had a larger body, so possibly more room for heat dissipation. Maybe that camera did not hit the sales numbers they wanted, and deemed 60p to be not so important to the prosumer crowd. The camera straddles the fence with it's pro and consumer features. Maybe too expensive for the consumer and not pro enough for the pros.

Sony makes the FS7 pro camera with 4K 60P and lots of other pro features and it sells like hotcakes, or so I've heard. Sony could have determined that 60P was mostly important to the pro crowd and not worth putting in lower class cameras.

Also, just because GoPro or Panasonic have figured out how to do 4K 60P in a smaller sized camera doesn't mean another manufacturer (Sony) automatically has overcome those engineering hurdles. Otherwise, JVC, Panasonic and Sony would all have Canon's best auto-focus system. Or would you say that everyone can do what Canon does and they are all just holding back due to marketing?

As was said earlier in this thread, what good is 4K 60P if the image quality is no good?

Pure marketing? Pure technical? Probably a little of both.
If Sony could chime in here to clear it up, that would be great, but then again they might just lament that we all want a pro camera at prosumer prices.

I would like to point out that citing a 1/2.3" (which if memory serves is more or less a "1/3 inch" small size) sensor camera (AX1) that offered 60p is comparing apples and oranges...

I've tried the "small sensor" 4K cams, and they are not in the same league as the 1" class cameras, two very different animals in pretty much every respect. Even on a "cheap" 4K30p playback system, the verdict on sensor size is quickly rendered.

You could certainly argue the "marketing" point in relation to the AX33/53 (small sensor handycam) and why a sub $1K camera should not be the first one to offer 4K/60p... seems somewhat obvious...


This leaves the problematic issue of why Canon and Panasonic ARE releasing 1" class 4K60p "prosumer" cameras, and Sony is dropping the ball... if it's because of (as it appears) technical reasons (the well known and documented overheating issue), someone has some 'splaining to do, and more importantly catching up to do! You can't argue it's not technically possible, when the other guys are doing it...

It seems highly unlikely that with the GH5 and now several new small camcorders entering the market WITH 4K60p.... that somehow a marketing guy or team could make a plausible, supportable argument that Sony should leave that feature OUT...

If the market EXPECTS a feature, it's marketing suicide to simply ignore the demand, as the $$$$ can and WILL go elsewhere, relatively quickly, in ample evidence right here on this thread!! I will admit that the sample video I've seen from the GH5 would convince me to switch, aside from the cost of switching systems!

Sony has had a couple rough years (the earthquake, financial struggles in the parent company), yet the Sony digital imaging division has produced some excellent cameras that produce excellent output... it's tough to see that "bleeding edge" success slipping...

I had bought into the Sony prosumer product line since the Hi8 VX3. Replacing each time with the latest including he NX5U and the FDR-AX1 which I still have both. That segment was in the $4000 range. For all these they always had a full pro version ( example the NX5U pro had the AX200 prosumer. the FDR-AX1 the PXW-Z100 ) Usual difference was SDI interface and timecode and in the case of the PXW-Z100 10bit output at a very high data rate. These were all 3 ring cameras now Sony have the new NX5R that I had hoped would have UHD60P as really the only model in the class for Sony. I was looking for a camera to replace my NX5U and FDR-AX1 and the closest is the Panasonic HC-X1/UX180.

I am loving the GH5 with its WiFi app that I can control it from my tablet.

AX100 update …. It’s been a LONG time coming!
[I know this is VERY LONG but I couldn’t take it any more!]
[very frustrated, ready for a new cam]

No UHD 60P. Fail.
Like they say, you can get a 1,000 “at-a-boys” but one “aw shit” wipes them out.

Agree. I think Sony now is the only manufacturer without a 50/60P UHD camera in this class of camcorders ....
*sigh* ain’t that the truth. What will that do to the resale value of a used 30p cam that was just bought?

Coming from an AX100 I'm ready for an upgrade. I was sold on the XF400 until this announcement. No 60p is very disappointing ....
NX80 Pros
Full sensor readout, OLED Touchscreen, HLG, $700 less than XF 400, can use my existing batteries
I really wanted the X70 but didn’t want to deal with the, umm ..., “features”, so got the AX100 as a placeholder and have been really satisfied with it. No problems. Then got the AX53 and, WoW, what a cool cam with that BOSS system. The two cut really well together but still waiting for either the X70 or AX100 replacement. The AX700 at first glance looked like my go-to cam replacement where I’d use the JuicedLink low-noise pre with it’s XLR connectors and controls.

I have to say I really prefer the control layout on the body of the Sony over the Canon.
Yes! Yes! And/or over a bridge DSLR.

I'd bet a thousand bucks that Sony engineers would love to do 60p and/or 10bit on a $2500 camera but they are getting shot down by higher decision makers.

The only way Sony would do 60p and/or 10bit would be if an exec very high up in Sony would step in and demand it.

Look,...Panasonic does 60p, 10bit with no heat problems...probably buying Sony sensor and 6k scaling algorithms. Their managers happily pay for those chips and turn those switches on while Sony is against doing it.
Yes, *and shaking my head*, so what’s management thinking? That previous loyal Sony customers will stay within the fold? Hey, “money talks” and customers walk. What ever happened to the upgrade path? The customer that starts out with their first cam then graduates to better and more expensive cams? If the cam isn’t competitive then “the upgrade path” will have a missing link. Then what?

"No 60p for you!"
Whether it's technical issues or feature rationing, doesn't matter really. If the camera doesn't do what you need, you don't buy it.
For me, I can wait. On to other stuff at the moment (just bought a couple AKG C414 microphones) and my current AX100 and AX53 will do me fine until spring. It would have been nice, though, to pick up one of the new cams. Come spring, maybe the Yi 4K+ … ? Hey, I know it’s cheap but it’s got 60p AND I can get it wet! So who knows? (he, he)

This leaves the problematic issue of why Canon and Panasonic ARE releasing 1" class 4K60p "prosumer" cameras, and Sony is dropping the ball... if it's because of (as it appears) technical reasons (the well known and documented overheating issue), someone has some 'splaining to do, and more importantly catching up to do! You can't argue it's not technically possible, when the other guys are doing it...!
Amen! Good point. I'm sure the Sony engineers knew full well, or pretty much so, what the heat generation from the sensors and other components were when they came up with the AX100 body. Tooling is costly so they wanted a body that would last a few generations, or iterations, and I’m sure they had a safety factor included in the body design.

It is possible, though, that the new features where all the processing would obviously generate heat overtook the heat balance equation but my guess still is, it’s what many have surmised, that management is trying to protect the higher-end models. Ironically, a decision like that may be just shooting themselves in the foot.

If the market EXPECTS a feature, it's marketing suicide to simply ignore the demand, as the $$$$ can and WILL go elsewhere, relatively quickly, in ample evidence right here on this thread!!
According to their PR stuff, their two [edit: three] main target audiences seem to be wedding, church, and news people and I can see that. After the initial sales (IF that works out as planned), and sales start to fall off, THEN they might add 60p - - for a couple hundred dollars - - to boost sales again. But they better be careful because the technology landscape is changing and if they wait the potential buyers of today who went elsewhere aren’t going to come back. What’s the latest catch phrase? Anytime soon?

Note: By having 60p as a PAID upgrade and going direct instead of through distribution channels it will cut out the retailers so more profit for Sony’s bottom line.

Bottom line (and it's all about the bottom line): Not including 60p when everybody else has it may be a major management decision mistake.
[sorry for the long post but I just couldn't take it any more]

Since no one mentioned it, I'd thought I'd point out that when the 4K upgrade became available for purchase for the x70 it was only 60Mbps whereas their own and other consumer cameras were already doing 100Mbps. Later the 4K feature had an update which added 100Mbps.

So it doesn't surprise me in the least that the z90 doesn't include 4k 60p. I'm not entirely certain it's just a marketing decision just as I'm not sure originally offering only 4K 60Mbps was a marketing decision. I don't think companies make marketing decisions that put themselves at a market disadvantage. If Sony held up 4k 100Mbps for a time, it may be a similar hurdle to deliver 4k 60p at 150Mbps as well (being able to deliver the data rate is certainly a factor). In fact these look like the same decision in that they can't (yet?) deliver the data rate given the technology they're using or standards they're holding themselves to.

I'm inclined to believe that Sony is taking a different approach which may present them additional hurdles on encoder quality since this is now a twice repeated pattern.

When I make a camera purchase decision I look at the whole package because any given camera can beat any other given camera with a given feature.

For me, camera size (small) is very important. Perhaps being able to shoot 1080 at 120fps continuous is more important than 4k 60p is more important to some. Perhaps the new autofocus features are much more mission critical as well. Maybe 10 bit 4:2:2 HD internal recording is more important.

While there are other cameras that have 4k 60p, depending on the camera, they each seem to lack something the z90 has. It does not mean the z90 is "better" but it does mean there may be other feature advantages the z90 has that may rank higher for some.

Form me, the NXCAM NX-80 offers something way better than its more expensive XDCAM brother.....mp4 wrapper!

I dont know about anybody else but I feel the .mp4 container is WAY better than .mxf. Mp4 plays back soooo much smoother for me. It plays back perfectly on almost any media player and device. Meanwhile, .mxf seems to unpack slower and many players struggle with it. The 100mbp/s h.264 CODEC settings are virtually identical with the exception of fixed GOP structure vs variable GOP structure. As far as quality goes, they appear 100% identicle.

Anyhoo....im ready to sell my NX-70 just for the sole benefit of dropping .mxf and gaining .mp4 instead! I dont care about 1080 SDI as I only shoot UHD today.

I've really enjoyed my X70, bought in Dec. 2014 and upgraded to 4K. Compared to the X70 the Z90 is a pretty nice upgrade, even though it's basically just bringing the existing better Sony tech to the X70:

--a newer, better, cleaner sensor that should be a bit better in low light/higher gain
--SLog and HDR - I've been approximating flatter settings with Picture Profiles
--a more responsive and adjustable auto focus
--a true lanc port that doesn't require an adapter cable
--120fps instead of 60fps in HD, and limited bursts of even higher HD frame rates

There may more minor things that I've omitted. I find the Image Stabilization on the X70 pretty average, so I hope that is better as well. But, these are true improvements to the X70, things that many X70 users have long wished for. There was a time when I'd have jumped at this @ $2800.

But, with the Canon XF400 having 60fps in 4K, probably better image stabilization than either Sony, and a longer, wider optical zoom for only $200 more, I'd definitely look at it. My previous camera was a Canon XF100, bought in 2011. It was also $3000 and I enjoyed the extensive picture customization it offered and its 422 8-bit HD. The XF400 looks to me like an upgrade to the XA series hardware, not the XF, so I hope it would retain the deep customization of the XF series.

I also like the features of the Panasonic HC-X1 @ $3200, especially its longer zoom. But that lens also makes it bigger and heavier than I would probably be interested in.

I'm wondering why people value 4k 60p over other features. I guess it depends what kind of work you do.
At the moment it looks like the Canon XF405 shoots 1080 at 35mbps 4:2:0 8bit whereas the Sony Z90 is 50mbps 4:2:2 10bit. That's far more important to me in day to day work. Having S-Log adds further value if you want to push a grade around.

While I can't be sure how Canon encodes but my understanding is that Sony is doing a 2 bass VBR to push quality but that may well be the hurdle they face when pushing data rate or frame rates higher in normal shooting. The 2 pass is obviously a very short interval. Maybe Canon does this too but I haven't heard such.

The value for me in UHD60P is reframing in a 1920x 1080 project. I like the smooth motion of 60P ( 59.94fps ) and most of the time the camera is fixed. So in post I can emulate a multicam shoot from one camera. Of course I would like 4:2:2 10bit as well and in fact is also possible using an external recorder like the Atomos Inferno if the camera will output this stream. In my case the GH5 will do this. Having a camera that could operate in different modes would be the advantage.