So it's not clear for me if you can select also C-Log2, because you're saying if I've understood clearly that C-Log 3 is baked into CRM files.

Clog2 is not available on the C200. Only Clog for the 8-bit (as a choice) and Clog3 for the raw files (baked in).

You can choose Clog2 or Clog3 (plus BT.709, DCI, Wide DR gammas) when converting the CRM files in Canon's Raw Development program. CRM files are shot in Canon's Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut, Clog3 is not "baked in".

From the C200 Post production Brief available from Canon:

"C200 captures its RAW information in a proprietary RAW Gamut and RAW Gamma. This data needs to be taken from their RAW spaces, and conformed into one of the many gamma curves or color spaces to begin the post-production process. The footage from the EOS C200 can be conformed into a wide range of spaces, from Cinema Gamut down to BT.709, and from Canon Log 2 to Wide DR. The choice is yours and dependent on the amount of post-production resources you’re planning to allocate. However, if you are shooting in the RAW format presumably you’re going to want to take full advantage of the information captured utilizing a combination of Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut. This Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut combination is the most ideal starting point for an HDR workflow, providing the full 15 stop dynamic range the sensor has to offer, as well as the widest range of encoded colors."

You can choose Clog2 or Clog3 (plus BT.709, DCI, Wide DR gammas) when converting the CRM files in Canon's Raw Development program. CRM files are shot in Canon's Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut, Clog3 is not "baked in".

This is very different from the previous Canon raw format. I wonder if they'll add it to the C300 II/C700.

You can choose Clog2 or Clog3 (plus BT.709, DCI, Wide DR gammas) when converting the CRM files in Canon's Raw Development program. CRM files are shot in Canon's Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut, Clog3 is not "baked in".

From the C200 Post production Brief available from Canon:

"C200 captures its RAW information in a proprietary RAW Gamut and RAW Gamma. This data needs to be taken from their RAW spaces, and conformed into one of the many gamma curves or color spaces to begin the post-production process. The footage from the EOS C200 can be conformed into a wide range of spaces, from Cinema Gamut down to BT.709, and from Canon Log 2 to Wide DR. The choice is yours and dependent on the amount of post-production resources you’re planning to allocate. However, if you are shooting in the RAW format presumably you’re going to want to take full advantage of the information captured utilizing a combination of Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut. This Canon Log 2 and Cinema Gamut combination is the most ideal starting point for an HDR workflow, providing the full 15 stop dynamic range the sensor has to offer, as well as the widest range of encoded colors." Thanks Barry, but how do you choose the Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut if you directly import in Da Vinci without using Canon's Raw Development program?

This is very different from the previous Canon raw format. I wonder if they'll add it to the C300 II/C700.

You'd think it would be possible, but I kinda doubt it will ever happen....(I've said forever that 4kp60 should be possible on the C300markII, and that's never happened :-)

-- maybe the C700, as it will likely be 2-3 years before they mark II it.

Thanks Barry, but how do you choose the Raw Gamma and Raw Gamut if you directly import in Da Vinci without using Canon's Raw Development program?

Dunno. Don't use DaVinci Resolve and I haven't seen the beta yet. Reading between the lines in the PP Brief I posted here earlier, it would seem that you'd be working with their Raw Gamma as opposed to one of the LOGs...which at first seems strange, but that's really how you traditionally work with RAW files in say Photoshop (along with some metadata that gives you a linear preview). It may be that there is an ingest profile similar to an ACES workflow that converts to a specific LOG or something else altogether. You might pose this question to Seb over at C5d, as he's apparently done some work with Resolve and the CRM files when he reviewed the camera...

Just saw the C200 in person today at InfoComm. I wanted to make absolutely sure that the HDMI was indeed locked down to 8bit. Sadly, they fully confirmed this. What a shame that Canon crippled this beautiful camera this way.

I told them this little fact completely killed it for me. I have zero use for CLog in a low spec 4:2:0 8bit CODEC and very little use for raw sensor data on small cards. The only thing I want this camera for is 10bit log in external ProRes. And, this C200 cant do that simple thing for me because the C300 needs protection.

Its officially off my radar screen now. The EVA1 right now is in my sights for Christmas.

They told me they understood my problem with the camera and would pass it along to Canon management on the final show report.

[Sigh].....oh well. What can you do?

"If you dont canabolize yourself, than somebody else will" - Steve Jobs

I have zero use for CLog in a low spec 4:2:0 8bit CODEC and very little use for raw sensor data on small cards.

Clog was built for 8-bit 4:2:2. Shooting 10-bit in Clog gives you the basic benefits of 10-bit color, but nothing in regard to Clog. Clog2/3 is for 10-bit.

"If you dont canabolize yourself, than somebody else will" - Steve Jobs

Your quoting of the late CEO and co-founder of Apple raised a lot of questions in my mind. First, did he really use such bad spelling and grammar when he talked? :-} (he didn't), did he actually say such a thing (he did), and what was he really talking about when he said it.

Back in 2007, Apple was riding high on sales of it's iPod, an innovative product that, along with the iMac, led to its recovery from the doldrums of the Sculley-Gil Amelio era, a period where apple's overlapping product lines led to market confusion, declining sales and profits turned into losses. As iPod sales began to crest, Apple announced the iPhone, a revolutionary product that, for the most part made the iPod, it's biggest selling product in units and profits, obsolete. History of course will look back on this new product as perhaps the greatest success in technology history, as Apple's revenue has grown more than ten-fold since its introduction. When Apple "cannibalized" the iPod, it was to shift the fundamental axis of the company's trajectory, and it was done to a product line that had matured, was at the end of its growth period, and largely, had run it's course.

Jobs, otherwise, was famous for protecting Apple's products, by focusing on incredibly lean product lines with almost no overlap. Apple products during the Jobs period had an elegant "uniqueness". His goal was to get you to buy multiple apple products versus cramming all the features in the world into one single gadget.

So you, Cliff, have placed the importance of one single i/o feature of the Canon C200, on par with Apple's destruction of the iPod in favor of the iPhone. In fact, one could argue that Canon, with the C200, by offering a new approach to RAW, is doing something closer to what Steve Jobs had in mind. For many users, the offering of a simplified RAW will make this camera seem MORE attractive than the C300II to some users.

Canon has always struck me as an Apple compared to Sony's IBM. It has generally eschewed headline features (like speed) over a certain elegance of the product. When it does innovate, like it did with DPAF, and it's now doing with its approach to RAW, it does so to shift it's own axis, but also that of it's customers.

Yeah, my Steve Jobs quote is just a general concept that applies to all industries. I really dont care about Jobs saying it or it being specific to Apple products. I think its just a good "general" term and I think it applies to all the camera companies. Henry Ford could have said it and it's still relevant.

For me, at that price, 8bit 4:2:0 video is not what I want. For me, raw sensor data is great but not on expensive CFast media. Anybody know what a single 512gig CFast card costs? I want long form 1-2 hour 10bit "video" recordings.

For me, I need 10bit video into ProRes. I can even live with no internal recording at all. 4:2:0 8bit is useless for 4k high quality color grading. Panasonic will provide that AND 5.7k raw data. I strongly suspect that Sony will also have a lower cost 10bit answer to the EVA-1 at IBC too.

Its very possible that the C200 could be THE most expensive 8bit 4:2:0 "video" locked down camera on the market. No, raw sensor data is not "video".

Look, i get it. Many people will pay any price and go to the ends of the Earth to get "Canon colors" but for me, I think that blocking out external recorders is going to far for me to accept. Especially when there are other extremely attractive and higher spec options for that same cost.

If you like the C200, thats cool. I did love it myself until I found out they killed my 4k ProRes recorders. Luckily I will have some other choices soon.

Im pretty sure this locked HDMI thing makes Panasonic and Sony happy as Hell. :-)

Its very possible that the C200 could be THE most expensive 8bit 4:2:0 "video" locked down camera on the market. Raw is not "video".


Raw Light is however a way to enable end users to TREAT it like video... like the way that RedCode works; you don't HAVE To transcode it into an editor friendly format if you have a decent GPU in your system these days.

I suspect that Canon is banking on that, though odds are Red's scalable implementation will continue to exceed it in terms of efficiency. Red's put a lot of optimization time into that.

Yeah, my Steve Jobs quote is just a general concept that applies to all industries.

General statements of this nature cannot, by their very definition, be true.

For me, raw sensor data is great but not on expensive CFast media. Anybody know what a single 512gig CFast card costs? I want long form 1-2 hour 10bit "video" recordings.

Then there are other options for you, including a GH5 + Shogun. Or even a GH4 + Shogun.

But for some reason you don't want those other options.

Then there are other options for you, including a GH5 + Shogun. Or even a GH4 + Shogun.

But for some reason you don't want those other options.

Even a Raven is in the same price range... and has both RAW recording options as well as ProRes. ;)

Dont get me wrong. I appreciate the coolness of raw-light files. Im glad the C200 does this.

However, as much as I love it, would have traded that feature for an unlocked 10bit HDMI output. If im going to shoot a 1 or 2 hour concert or play, Id much rather have a 10bit ProRes video file. Short raw data files are nice but I dont want long form recordings in 4:2:0 8bit.

Its an HDMI 2.0 chipset. So, its quite possible that Canon could reverse their 8bit cripple with a firmware revision. Ill be crossing my fingers all summer long.

If im going to shoot a 1 or 2 hour concert or play

Are you planning on buying the c200 for concerts/plays? Are you not better of getting a fixed lens camera with a motorized zoom for this purpose?

Dynamic range with log gamma is what I'm after. And there are allout more things out there to shoot as well. Most fixed lens camcorders are rec709 with 6-7 stops of latitude.

Yeah but for concerts and plays they are a better choice.

If im going to shoot a 1 or 2 hour concert or play, Id much rather have a 10bit ProRes video file.

I don't know any guys shooting theatrical that do a lot of grading to their footage. And when I do, I'm usually reducing contrast and saturation unlike most other subject matter.

FWIW ...this is C300 HD 4:2:2 8 bit (equivalent to 4:2:0 4k 8 bit). Graded from C-log. I don't remember if this was shot to card or recorder...either way...still 8 bit, and I think it looks pretty good.

Civic Ballet SLO Nutcracker 13 Highlights on Vimeo

Even a Raven is in the same price range... and has both RAW recording options as well as ProRes. ;)

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Raven is $9k for the body, which doesn't include a display. Every 120GB Red Mag is $850. It's a crop sensor and not even close to the same price.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Raven is $9k for the body, which doesn't include a display. Every 120GB Red Mag is $850. It's a crop sensor and not even close to the same price.

I thought the C200 was also $9000... then realized that was the price in Euros. The crop is pretty minimal from Super 35 though. And you get 120 fps in 4.5K, and don't need an external recorder for 10-bit ProRes...

The crop is pretty minimal from Super 35 though. And you get 120 fps in 4.5K, and don't need an external recorder for 10-bit ProRes...

Yet you don't own one, and it makes no sense in the context, so why are you pushing for it? The crop is 1.87 to Full Frame, and even higher in 2K. ProRes is only 2K, so that's a 3.74x crop for all ProRes shooting. And you still haven't considered the display costs and the $850 per 120GB Red Mags. It's not even an option, and to continually suggest one in this thread continues to render an example of your poor suggestions.

Yet you don't own one, and it makes no sense in the context, so why are you pushing for it? The crop is 1.87 to Full Frame, and even higher in 2K. ProRes is only 2K, so that's a 3.74x crop for all ProRes shooting. And you still haven't considered the display costs and the $850 per 120GB Red Mags. It's not even an option, and to continually suggest one in this thread continues to render an example of your poor suggestions.

You're right, I don't own one, I have a different model of Red.

However, to address your obvious cluelessness, Red's ProRes is, as is the case with most cameras that support it, scaled from the full frame rather than cropped.

However, to address your obvious cluelessness, Red's ProRes is, as is the case with most cameras that support it, scaled from the full frame rather than cropped.

Yes, I'm the clueless one, not you who thinks an $17k Red package (not including batteries of course) shooting 2K ProRes and *all* 4K being in REDCODE is totally comparable to a C200. Clearly, I'm the one who is clueless.

Yes, I'm the clueless one, not you who thinks an $17k Red package (not including batteries of course) shooting 2K ProRes and *all* 4K being in REDCODE is totally comparable to a C200. Clearly, I'm the one who is clueless.

It doesn't take much to figure out that you CAN rig up a working Raven for around $13K + batteries, and when you account for an external recorder, the difference is still less extreme than you think it is. The bigger down side to the Raven is that so many people are buying them... because they're so inexpensive.

Besides "all 4K is in RedCode" isn't a down side; it imports natively into almost every NLE out there, which will probably be true for Canon's Raw Light format pretty soon also.

Either way, it's more competition, though this time I suspect that it's Black Magic that will get the squeeze.

It doesn't take much to figure out that you CAN rig up a working Raven for around $13K + batteries, and when you account for an external recorder, the difference is still less extreme than you think it is.

And the C200 is $7500. So why don't you break down what you get for $13k + batteries exactly?

And as for an external recorder, that's something most people already have, so you can't really count that.

And the C200 is $7500. So why don't you break down what you get for $13k + batteries exactly?


Figure out yourself. It's not hard.

Figure out yourself. It's not hard.

Like the rest of your advice, you just made that number up here on the spot without knowing if it's correct or not.

For $12.5k I can purchase a C200, 1TB of CFast media (over 4 cards, for about 120 minute of raw recording), 4 A30 batteries, and an Atomos 7" Flame Recorder with 1TB of media.

For $15.5k I can purchase a Red Raven with 120GB of media (for 14 minutes of recording), 2 batteries, and a 4.7" screen.

Anybody know if the C200 will accept any size CFast card? Is it locked down to 128, 256 or 512...etc?

I certainly hope Canon didnt do that. Although these days, I wouldn't put it past them. ;-)

I know Canon updated the firmware on the C300 II to allow for recording on the new Sandisk CFast 256GB cards and Lexar says their 512GB 3500x cards are compatible as well. I have never heard of a Canon camera of any kind being directly crippled in that way, unless those Lexar cards can't support the lite raw codec for some reason (usually sustained write speeds aren't quite up to snuff)

General statements of this nature cannot, by their very definition, be true.



Then there are other options for you, including a GH5 + Shogun. Or even a GH4 + Shogun.

But for some reason you don't want those other options.

I actually have a GH5 rig with a Pix E5 on top. I'm completely blown away by how well the 5k readout to 4k scaling looks in 10bit VLog. The GH5 is literally no joke! Wow!

I actually have a GH5 rig with a Pix E5 on top. I'm completely blown away by how well the 5k readout to 4k scaling looks in 10bit VLog. The GH5 is literally no joke! Wow!

I have one as a B-camera to my C300 Mark II.

I still haven't understood this : when do you record in 4K RAW, the LCD display shows desatured colors, ( I mean a LOG image) ?

I still haven't understood this : when do you record in 4K RAW, the LCD display shows desatured colors, ( I mean a LOG image) ?

On the C100/C300 II models, whenever you record in a log image you have the option of turning on a viewing LUT for the built-in display. I would assume that is the case here as well.

I have one as a B-camera to my C300 Mark II.
I'm thinking of getting a GH5 as well to go with my C300 MkII. What are your thoughts after using this combo?

I'm thinking of getting a GH5 as well to go with my C300 MkII. What are your thoughts after using this combo?

I am very pleased with how close the color is on the GH5. It's nowhere near as clean as the C300 in higher ISOs (1600+), but the picture is really nice in the 400-800 range and 1600 is totally useable. In my testing, I found that the Natural with contrast and sharpness turned down all the way, and then saturation at -3 made for a good foundation to finish matching to the C300 in its Rec.709 mode. I also like that it can record 10-bit 422 so that it's in the league as my C300 II as well.

The Sony PDAF was good for AF like DPAF on the C300 (although Canon's DPAF is better), and I do miss that, but everything else is spot on for a B-camera. I used it in conjunction extensively just yesterday with the Speedbooster Ultra and the Canon lenses in my kit and I am very pleased with the results.

Thanks for the response!

Correct me if I am wrong but we do get clean 10 bit 4:2:2 through hdmi for 1080P right?
It's just that we only get 8 bit 4:2:2 in 4K through hdmi.

I am pretty confident that Canon will fix all these concerns in the formware update that's coming, it's very logical of them to do that.
They are delaying giving that codecs to C200 until C300 replacement is released not to kill that line.

Once C300 mkiii is released, they will give C200 10 bit 4:2:2 I am sure.

The C200 is 8-bit only unless you are shooting raw.

Recently I've tested the camera in a presentation in Italy. I've found quite heavy to hold with one hand with the kit lens Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS II USM. The camera needs to be hold with two hands to be stabilized. Does anyone else find the camera heavy? I think with that zoom lens is more than 6.6 lbs (about 3.0 kg).

The camera needs to be hold with two hands to be stabilized. Does anyone else find the camera heavy?

What camera are you using that you can hold with one hand? Outside of small Handycams, I have never owned a camera that only needed one hand.

What camera are you using that you can hold with one hand? Outside of small Handycams, I have never owned a camera that only needed one hand. I'm still using my old HPX170 with just one hand, as alternative maybe the Sony FS5 is a better camera to work with (I've read online that is very lightweight), I'm interested about EOS C200 but considering this problem I hope Sony will make a FS5 Mark II soon.

I'm still using my old HPX170 with just one hand

I also had an HPX170 back in the day and did not find footage acceptable shot with one hand. It was okay in a pinch, but definitely not a "feature" of that camera.

Correct me if I am wrong but we do get clean 10 bit 4:2:2 through hdmi for 1080P right?
It's just that we only get 8 bit 4:2:2 in 4K through hdmi.

I am pretty confident that Canon will fix all these concerns in the formware update that's coming, it's very logical of them to do that.
They are delaying giving that codecs to C200 until C300 replacement is released not to kill that line.

Once C300 mkiii is released, they will give C200 10 bit 4:2:2 I am sure.

The C200 is 8-bit only unless you are shooting raw.

There is 10bit 4:2:2 1080p coming through both the SDI and HDMI outputs. I would not expect this to change after launch, but we might see 4k 10 bit XF-AVC internally to the Cfast card, if the gods are listening.

we might see 4k 10 bit XF-AVC internally to the Cfast card, if the gods are listening.

And everyone would immediately sell their C300 Mark II and buy this, makes zero sense to do it.

And everyone would immediately sell their C300 Mark II and buy this, makes zero sense to do it.

I'll be surprised if the XF-AVC isn't 8-bit for the reasons Gary mentions. Canon definitely protects their own product lineup. That's why internal Cinema RAW Light is such a surprise as it totally breaks with Canons traditional marketing segmenting.

I'll be surprised if the XF-AVC isn't 8-bit for the reasons Gary mentions.

Here is a quote from the Post-Production Brief with the EOS C200: (http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/eos-c200-post-production-brief.shtml)

"However, with a future firmware update the EOS C200 will gain the ability to record both UltraHD and FullHD to Canon’s purpose built XF-AVC codec inside of an .MXF OP-1A wrapper. This format will allow for an abundance of metadata to be captured to the file"

I would be willing to bet that the XF-AVC codec will be nearly identical to the MP4 option, just with the additional metadata that Canon cannot store in MP4. An 8-bit 4:2:2 XF-AVC codec already exists, it's in the XC10/15. However, an 8-bit 4:2:0 XF-AVC codec does not exist save for the low-bitrate proxy mode found in the C300/C700. That would need to be worked on and would explain why it's going to require a future firmware.

Also, it may be possible that the external 10-bit recording modes in 2K/1080 disables internal recording. I can't find any info about that. I do know that all VFR modes will be in 8-bit, unlike the C300.

Here is a quote from the Post-Production Brief with the EOS C200: (http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/eos-c200-post-production-brief.shtml)

"However, with a future firmware update the EOS C200 will gain the ability to record both UltraHD and FullHD to Canon’s purpose built XF-AVC codec inside of an .MXF OP-1A wrapper. This format will allow for an abundance of metadata to be captured to the file"

I would be willing to bet that the XF-AVC codec will be nearly identical to the MP4 option, just with the additional metadata that Canon cannot store in MP4. An 8-bit 4:2:2 XF-AVC codec already exists, it's in the XC10/15. However, an 8-bit 4:2:0 XF-AVC codec does not exist save for the low-bitrate proxy mode found in the C300/C700. That would need to be worked on and would explain why it's going to require a future firmware.

Also, it may be possible that the external 10-bit recording modes in 2K/1080 disables internal recording. I can't find any info about that. I do know that all VFR modes will be in 8-bit, unlike the C300.

My hope is that for a large majority of my shoots with the C200, I will be able to buy enough inexpensive, large CFast cards so I can just shoot Cinema RAW Light with the 2K proxy and not worry about all of this. It seems lately I have not been doing as many full days with shooting all day/event kind of footage. And for those clients, the .Mp4s will suffice, they do not pixel peep. That would make my life better and would give my projects a very good camera master to do whatever with.

Here is a quote from the Post-Production Brief with the EOS C200: (http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/eos-c200-post-production-brief.shtml)Also, it may be possible that the external 10-bit recording modes in 2K/1080 disables internal recording. I can't find any info about that

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/cinema-eos/eos-c200

Wide Range of Connectivity Options:

Output Signal Configurations (During Shooting)

Recording Type - MP4, 1920×1080 - HDMI 1920×1080, YCbCr 4:2:2, 10 bit (*3: Output will be YCbCr 4:2:2 8 bit when the recording mode is slow motion mode.).

What camera are you using that you can hold with one hand? Outside of small Handycams, I have never owned a camera that only needed one hand.

I also find it disgusting that someone has made a professional broadcast and cinema camera that weighs more than 0.3lbs

Shame on Canon for making a cine camera than can't be juggled by a newborn lemur.


(emoji for laughing while typing)

we might see 4k 10 bit XF-AVC internally to the Cfast card, if the gods are listening.

Here (https://twitter.com/brentramseydp/status/889963187541610496) is the official word.

Here (https://twitter.com/brentramseydp/status/889963187541610496) is the official word.

Straight from the horses mouth. Now the questions are, "4:2:2?" and "At what bit rate" although signs are leaning toward 4:2:0 and 150 Mbps.