I know this has been covered before but if anyone feels like it I'd like to revisit cinema settings, I don't know where the 'knee' should be and so forth, and/or shooting J-Log and using LUTs.

1. How are 709 and Cinema different? If you have a settings for 709 or cinema that you really like I'd like to try them out.

2. Expound on shooting J-LOG and using LUTs, and/or point me to a good link resource that explains it well or gives practical tips for using it with FCP.



I know I'm years behind on some of this, but it's new to me I appreciate any input even if it's just a quick link.

I don't use the cinema setting so can't comment.

Regarding Log shooting, make sure that you have the spot meter switched on and watch the high number reading. Also that the camera is applying it's LUT to the camera screens for you.

When shooting in Log the Gain/ISO is automatically changed by the camera, so 0db is now 800ISO. Peak whites will show on the spot meters as '800%' You can drop the gain back down to -6db/400ISO if you wish, but the camera will now record peaks at '400%' and the recording is using less of the 8bit DR. I use varying gain in Log, aiming to set it as low as I can.

A useful exposure technique for shooting in Log is known as ETTR - Expose To The Right, where the histogram show an image which seems quite overexposed (to the right) but looks good once a Lut has been applied later.

I've filmed quite a bit in Log now after dismissing it for some time because it seemed like exposure was going to be very hard to get right. Frankly it's been a breeze and while I might not get it perfect all the time, I think it's worked out OK.

https://youtu.be/jmLy1QbkNLE

I edited that in FCPX, but I didn't use a LUT, just added a look instead.

When I am using LUTs I use mLut which is free and installed the free official LUTs for JVC. There's a Tungsten and a Daylight version depending on how you originally shot a scene. I bought the Leeming JVC LUT but have never used it.

mLut lets you tweaks the exposure settings, and it's worth mentioning that you can also slowly pull the parameters bars above the default maximums by holding down Alt and sliding up (or using a scroll wheel on the number selector)

Shooting in Log does shift colour hues around so simply crushing the blacks and adding saturation won't give a true reflection of your original colours, but if you like how it looks then just run with it.

Thanks for the reply, and your video was cool thanks for posting it. I was wondering what lenses you used on it.



-"When shooting in Log the Gain/ISO is automatically changed by the camera, so 0db is now 800ISO. Peak whites will show on the spot meters as '800%' You can drop the gain back down to -6db/400ISO if you wish, but the camera will now record peaks at '400%' and the recording is using less of the 8bit DR. I use varying gain in Log, aiming to set it as low as I can."
My problem is I'm almost thinking in a different language, I'm an old-dog ENG shooter, mostly think in basic terms like "gain" and "zebra", zoom in to a white card for a white balance whenever the light changes and move on. I've never shot stills or film, don't use a histogram or a spot meter. That may sound goofy but I always related terms like ISO 800% to "still photography" or "DSLRs", not a term I used daily when flipping the gain switch to 6 or 9 and back, or turning an ND filter when stepping outside.

I've used a 2/3" or 1/3" CCD for 15 years until now, for lack of a better term I feel like I shoot mostly "in camera", so my editing has been ENG style basic "cut and paste" as well to be honest.

I don't want to sound like an idiot or be too redundant, just saying where I'm coming from. I've been in the sensor-and-lenses google zone deciding on camera and glass, just got a lens delivered so now I can actually shoot some and have moved into the 'color correction/LUTs" phase. The googling will continue and I'll catch up once it starts clicking a bit. Education never ends. : )

For example I shot in J-log for the first time, it seems not be as effective or "correctable" in brighter sun, but I don't know why it would, and I was also messing with the gain switch so I'm gonna try that again. That kind stuff lol. It's fun though, I needed a shake up to be honest, going to be my own zoom and edit LUTs and so forth.

Hiya. I've posted full details of that factory shoot here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-4k-pro-handheld-camcorders/533272-another-ls300-review.html.

You can continue working with gain if you wish. I do, that why I mentioned the gain and ISO numbers. But you can't use zebras or auto iris in Log - neither of them will help you anyway.

Many including me are confused by the 800% numbers, I've read on other forums that's it's pretty much nonsense numbers - how can something be 800%? I think Sony Log settings claim up to 1600%! WTF - smells like marketing bullshit really. Forget all that for now and just shoot some footage.

When I first tested J-Log I filmed my daughter looking to camera against a window with no additional lighting on her. I filmed her in 709 and Log. In FCPX it was obvious that Log was doing something quite noticeable as the clouds above the moors in the distance weren't clipped, and she was well exposed whereas 709 looked clipped outside and she was underexposed.

Personally I don't pay much attention to the histogram when in Log. I adjust the iris up and down looking at how compressed the image seems. I don't mean crushed blacks, but mids and skin tones. I also sometimes glance at the spot meter which shows if any of the image is hitting max luminance, but if there's lightbulbs or shiny stuff in shot then it will clip and that's that.

Regarding LUTS I just bang on mLut, select the JVC preset and adjust exposure in mLut. Then I copy and paste mLut to the other clips in that scene.

I'll do any additional colour correction using the colour board in FCPX - that's enough for me.

You will find that J-Log is a little soft, so you could try adding a little sharpening. Personally I like the look.

Cheers.

Hey thanks I read that link on your shoot, good insight I appreciate it, thought it looked great. I saw you mentioned that you use the 35mm the most, that's interesting I think I'm going to start my prime set with 16mm, 35mm, and 85mm, figured I'd probably use the 35mm the most too.

And I'm starting to shoot and experiment with editing now, I know trial and error is one of best ways to go, just want to venture down correct paths and so forth.

The challenge of learning a new approach is exciting, thanks again for the input.

Are there scenarios where cinema or 709 is more effective than log, or is log always better because it allows more range?

One example would you shoot sports in J-log? Does fast-moving players on a brightly lit field mean anything different? I'm going to experiment with it, haven't had a chance yet just curious thoughts on it.


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EDIT- going to add these links and video because it kind of answers the question above and others I had. Even if you guys know this stuff, I'll post it here for others lurking it made a lot of sense to me. I was doing some of this stuff too, didn't realize moving shadows and saturation was similar to using a LUT.


http://www.adorama.com/alc/understanding-log-vs-lut

http://nofilmschool.com/2015/11/beginners-guide-shooting-grading-log-footage

https://youtu.be/uUL_cYI_iYQ

For Lee Powell, or anyone. I got the Leeming LUT pack and have what may be a dumb question but- When I apply the LUT in FCP X, what is the function of the grid-like overlay that appears over the video with all the row of little squares on the screen?
[EDIT]I knew it was a dumb question, the 'grid' is a watermark from the LUT utility, I had missed the video where they explained that. Oops.


-When using a "quickie look" after the using main LUT, do you install that in a 2nd color correction window?


Thanks, and the LUT works great nice work on it.

For Lee Powell, or anyone. I got the Leeming LUT pack and have what may be a dumb question but- When I apply the LUT in FCP X, what is the function of the grid-like overlay that appears over the video with all the row of little squares on the screen?
Sounds like you're using Red Giant's LUT Buddy to apply the Leeming LUT to your footage. The color grid which appears in the upper left corner is used by LUT Buddy to calculate a LUT for your image. You can use this feature to combine Leeming LUT with any other non-geometric filter and save a custom LUT which combines a set of stacked filters into a single LUT.

No I'm using the LUT Utility from Color Grading Central that was linked on the Leeming One website. The grid was just a watermark over the whole screen, I found out you have to clear the render cache to get it removed correctly, it's gone now.


My question is about the process for using the "quickie look LUTs" in FCP X. Do you add them as a 2nd Correction or stack them on the clip? it seems like when I select one thru the LUT Utility it changes the current LUT instead of accentuating it. Just curious the right way to apply those quickie looks.

My question is about the process for using the "quickie look LUTs" in FCP X. Do you add them as a 2nd Correction or stack them on the clip?
Good question. There are two different types of LUT's in common use and it's important to use each type appropriately.

The Leeming LUT is a color correction LUT. The LS300 version is calibrated specifically to convert J-Log1 footage into Rec 709 color space, making it visually compatible with HDTV monitors and H.264 encoders. This LUT should be applied early in the post production process, before any other type of color grading filter. Only one conversion LUT should be used on an image.

Quickie Look LUT's are esthetic grading LUT's. They are intended to impart a particular artistic color scheme upon Rec 709 footage obtained from any source. These LUT's should be applied near the end of the post production process, after framing, exposure and color correction have been used to normalize the image. Multiple LUT's of this type may be stacked to combine their effects.

That's good to confirm, that's the order I was going about it.

Still not certain of the proper process to apply the quickie LUT last. If you select the Leeming LUT and the Quickie LUT from the same list it seems like it's either/or.

Q: When you add a quickie LUT in FCP, do you use a 2nd correction or the same pull down list that you selected the Leeming LUT from?



/I also noticed something that seems odd about the LUT Utility from color grading central. When I drag the LUT Utility on to a clip, it clips the highlight levels on the waveform like 10%. I don't mean applying a LUT, I just mean dragging the LUT Utility itself on to a clip before choosing a LUT. It appears to make a hard clip line on the waveform. Been busy today, I'm going to look at it again, maybe get an image of what I mean it just seemed like it clips the highlight pretty hard before applying anything.

Sorry, I'm a Windows user, can't advise you about FCPX.

You should probably not attempt to use the same instance of your LUT utility to load both the Leeming LUT and one or more quickie LUT at the same time, as the LUT loading order can make a difference. Load the Leeming LUT first, add whatever filters and framing you like, and then apply the quickie LUT's.

I understand what you mean, it's just that the LUT Utility only seems to open in one place with one drop down menu to choose from, that menu has both the Leeming One and the Quickies on it.

I tried a 2nd correction and that doesn't affect how the LUT Utility is used, it only appears in one place and I don't see how to choose a 2nd setting from the list that includes both.

I'm going to try a different LUT loader tonight and will see if it has a different way to select them, it seems odd how the LUT Utility from color grading clips the waveform too.

This seemed like a good thread to post this.

I was just reading about the new Atomos Ninja Inferno model recorder/monitor and was wondering how this would help the LS300 users. It has a 7” screen that can be pretty bright and the company has it priced at $995 US.

Size-wise, it seems like it would be a good accessory for the cam, especially for outdoor shoots. If it was really bright outside, with it being only a 7” screen, a small hood shouldn’t make the cam/monitor package too unwieldily although it’s batteries would add weight.

Being an accessory, if one had another cam that one wanted to use for a specific purpose, or later upgraded to another cam, it could be used with it. Just wondering what it’s depreciation potential might be, hopefully better than a camera.

This thread was about LUTs and grading, but it doesn't matter if ya wanna talk about the Atomos Ninja, not much traffic here anyway.


/I did figure out my problem with stacking the quickie LUT on top of the Leeming LUT. What I didn't realize is you have to add the LUT Utility to the clip again and load the 'looks' from the LUT Utility #2 menu. It's the same concept as adding a 2nd or 3rd color correction, you have to add a 2nd or 3rd Utility to load looks in to.


I posted this in another thread, sorry for the repeat but it fits the topic, it was the first time I had stacked the LUTs correctly and I thought I got a little more out of the grading.

https://youtu.be/_-Acg0NQdCQ

And just to note I'm not posting video for a pat on the back, more interested in criticism or insight about settings or editing or lenses. I've learned a ton in the last month or so and archived posts like this helped me out a lot so I'm passing information along that might help someone else lurking like I was for a while.

This thread was about LUTs and grading, but it doesn't matter if ya wanna talk about the Atomos Ninja, not much traffic here anyway.
I know what you mean about not fitting exactly the thread, but since the JVC screen is somewhat limited this monitor has a lot of useful functions such as waveform, RGB parade, vectorscope, zebra, false color, etc., that would be useful in doing the things being discussed, and with the larger, clearer, and brighter screen they would be much more visible.

While relatively pricy compared to the cam, the good part is that it’s portable across other cams; consequently, it shouldn’t follow the depreciation curve of a typical cam. One of the real pluses of the LS300 is the interchangeable lens capability (and versatility). If JVC comes out with a new version of the cam it could be and accessory that could be re-used.

The thought about posting something here was because it was more closely related to this discussion than any of the others I could find. Didn’t feel it warranted a whole new thread.

And just to note I'm not posting video for a pat on the back, more interested in criticism or insight about settings or editing or lenses. I've learned a ton in the last month or so and archived posts like this helped me out a lot so I'm passing information along that might help someone else lurking like I was for a while.
On the entry door (on the inside as one exits) in a Hofbrau in San Jose, California, was a sign in German that went something like this:
"Too soon we get old und too late we get smart."

That’s so true.

That's cool John, it fits fine here and the LS300 can use a monitor assist for sure, I'm looking for a similar sized on-camera monitor but I've invested a lot recently so that's a little expensive, I'll probably stay in the 'monitor only' category for now, but seeing a histogram or waveform along with a audio meter would be nice. And that reminds me I'm gonna see if I can set a 'histogram toggle' button instead of having to go in the menu.

Actually, having a good monitor can help a lot with J-log.

I just got this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CQD5RD8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It's a $160 Feelworld 7" LCD that has focus peaking, histogram, false color/zebra exposure assists and a decent 800 line resolution. The image is really nice. It comes with a collapsible sun hood also. It's a vast improvement over the JVC LCD but the build quality leaves a little to be desired. These mystery Chinese electronics firms are hard to get a handle on their quality. I've have a Lilliput 400 line 7" LCD for many years that I swore would fall to pieces within two years that's still going. It doesn't have any assist functions, I used it mainly for client monitoring or long shoots. Recently a friend got a Shogun recorder/monitor for his camera and that inspired me to finally do something about the uncertainty I always feel when filming with the LS300. Unwarranted uncertainty as nothing has yet come out wrong but this cheap monitor gives me a better feeling while on the job.

Totally agree that a better monitor than the one on the LS300 would help with J-log or any format. The flip-out LCD is okay, it's just a little small and out of position for some situations, and the rear small viewfinder monitor was basically unusable for me, I don't know why they even bothered on that one.

That link you posted is similar to what I've been looking at for a larger monitor than the LCD. I bought a used Zacuto Z-finder for shoulder work or sports, but mostly been using the LCD door and would like something a little bigger and the less time I have that little door open and susceptible to breaking the better.

I'll check that one out, and if anyone knows of any other 7"-ish on camera monitors that stand out I'm looking and open to suggestions if it works particularly well with the LS300.