Steve I'm not confused. I know that a DSLR was designed for photography not to film video. You can dance around that fact and try to re-frame the conversation all you like. But I get it people like to argue here so keep refuting the obvious if you must.

Really who cares? I don't have shares in Panasonic or Sony, so as long as Panasonic continue to produce a tool I can use, their Business Practises as long as they're legal are of little interest to me. This stuff only matters to those with too much time of their hands to ponder such questions.

Wow Steve, you not only not care about the politics of the camera business, you are actually aggressively adamant about not caring about it. hahaha

Ok, that's cool. Nobody has to care about the business side of cameras. I love everything about cameras and photography and videography,...including the business and industry aspect of them too!

C'mon Steve, is it that "really" that horrible to "ponder such questions"? ;-)

On Sony's future against the GH5. If the past is any indicator, when the GH4 came out, at NAB Sony fired back with the original A7s and they gave 4k to it's HDMI output but not it's internal CODEC. With only a 4k HDMI, that camera took the industry by storm and was a certified hit for Sony. They fought Panasonic's GH4 with a much larger Full Frame camera that could see ghosts and faint spirits in the middle of the night. Both, the A7s and the GH4 did very well for both companies even though the A7s was crippled by it's internal 1080 CODEC.

They might do this all over again. Maybe they will position an new A7-III, not with a 4:2:2 10 CODEC. Instead buy giving it's HDMI 4:2:2 10bit for external recording. again with a crazy sensor that has a signal to noise ratio that is ever higher than today's A7S-II.

This might be a way that Sony can compete (somewhat) with a GH5 without hurting their FS5 or FS7 sales.

I don't know but Sony's answer is going to be very interesting. (but not for Steve) Sony still has time to announce what they are building before the GH5 hits the streets. I'm guessing NAB 2017? (where the original A7s was launched) I have a GH5 on pre-order now but I'd cancel it if Sony announces a solid move against the GH5.

I know that a DSLR was designed for photography not to film video.

Imagine how stupid I feel having to tell people at weddings over and over again that I shoot video when they ask me to take their picture. :)

Yes, been there, done that many times, Noa. I can understand it when they ask when I'm shooting with the GH4, but they even ask when I'm shooting with the LS300 and the Sony EX1R before that. Neither of those cameras remotely resemble a DSLR, but they ask anyway.

Steve I'm not confused. I know that a DSLR was designed for photography not to film video. You can dance around that fact and try to re-frame the conversation all you like. But I get it people like to argue here so keep refuting the obvious if you must.

Oh I'm not refuting the obvious by any means. Still as someone who began filming Weddings with handycams, oddly enough, despite such cameras being designed for video only, I was enjoying remarkably less functionality than my current crop of DSLRs designed for photo taking.

Still the fact that the GH5 isn't designed for video taking is a major plus as it gets certain features that something like the Sony FS5 or Canon C100 lack. Despite both costing a great deal more. It's a funny old World with modern technology.

Imagine how stupid I feel having to tell people at weddings over and over again that I shoot video when they ask me to take their picture. :)
I actually don't mind it happens all the time. I shot video of them posing then snap a shot. In editing I use a flash effect with the freeze frame. I like to mix in a few fun points where people interact with me. Sometimes you can capture video of people who are unaware you're filming them because they think you're taking pictures.

C'mon Steve, is it that "really" that horrible to "ponder such questions"? ;-)

I frequent forums on DpReview from time to time, where discussions can be more about how well a camera sells and why it was introduced and what it means for the company making it, rather than how well that camera works for the individual owning it. When brand loyalty leads to arguments over which camera is best by virtue of how well it sells, or want features not because they need them, but because having them gives their purchase bragging rights over others, it ends up feeling more fan boy talk than practical day to day use.


I don't know but Sony's answer is going to be very interesting. (but not for Steve)

What makes you think I wouldn't be interested in Sony's answer to the GH5. There's a difference between interest in where Panasonic gets their tech from and how they run their business and interest in seeing the specs of a new camera produced by Sony. Panasonic announce a new camera with a tonne of interesting features and suddenly discussion shifts to Sony's business practise and how and why it does what it does. Well fine, if that floats your boat. It just matters very little to me how Sony or Panasonic conducts their Business. I buy their products not their shares.

Some see cameras as a train spotter sees trains. More interested in facts and figures and history, whilst I see it just as a means to get from A to B.

Oh I'm not refuting the obvious by any means. Still as someone who began filming Weddings with handycams, oddly enough, despite such cameras being designed for video only, I was enjoying remarkably less functionality than my current crop of DSLRs designed for photo taking.

Still the fact that the GH5 isn't designed for video taking is a major plus as it gets certain features that something like the Sony FS5 or Canon C100 lack. Despite both costing a great deal more. It's a funny old World with modern technology.
I'm grateful for dslr video which has given videographers on the low end access to cinema look and feel that had been previously out of reach.

Coming from a proper eng camera makes me shake my head at how some of these dslrs operate I just do my best to work around it. For example, my dslr won't tell you how many minutes are left on the card! It be like selling a car without a gas gauge!

I'm grateful for dslr video which has given videographers on the low end access to cinema look and feel that had been previously out of reach.

Coming from a proper eng camera makes me shake my head at how some of these dslrs operate I just do my best to work around it. For example, my dslr won't tell you how many minutes are left on the card! It be like selling a car without a gas gauge!

Actually we have the video features of the 5D Mark 2 to thank for cameras like the C100, C300, Sony FS5 and 7 and the Panasonic DVX200 amongst others. Until then, sensors were much smaller despite being larger proper video cameras.

As for its limitations, they can vary from camera to camera. My GH4Rs has unlimited recording, so I get to see how many minutes are left on any card I put in. A feature I'm happy to see continues to the GH5.

I own a Panasonic AF101a and despite being a proper video camera, felt more restrictive than the GH4. Mainly down to lack of touchscreen, and the white balance and gain being toggle switches between 3 custom options. Okay easy to operate and in the case of white balance operational whilst recording, but frustrating to use in practise.

I partially agree with you on this about sensor size. However, large full frame sensors are not considered "pro" either. (this is coming from an A7s-II lover.) The only real "pro" size has been super35.

Except of course that full frame 35 and larger are the only "pro" sensor sizes for still photography. :) So it loses against both stills and video in terms of sensor.



I do think the GH5 is an "Oh $hit!!" moment for every other company in the industry. This camera is going to brutally twist everybody's arm on opening up very high end features on low priced cameras.

The GH5 is the proverbial gun to Sony and Canon's head. And this die-hard Sony fanboy just pre-ordered the GH5 15 min ago! (what a weird feeling that was)

CT

I don't think Sony is worried, they're dominating and on a winning streak. And Canon doesn't care because Canon never cares about anyone else ever anyway. But here's hoping you're right that it pushes Sony to delivery more!

And... I ordered one before even starting this thread! :D

I think Sony should be fine. I mean, they knew this camera was coming down the road for a while now.

I think we know for sure that Sony will not ever under any circumstances match every incredible GH5 feature...lol...no friggin' way!

I think that Sony will fire back at Panasonic with an A7s-III. (which has always been the camera they challenged the GH4/DSLR crowd with anyway.) But how will Sony do it? It's my guess that they will add a stop or more of DR to that big beautiful sensor and clean up the signal to noise ratio buy another 1 or 2db or maybe 3db. Then they enable UHD 4:2:2 60p output over it's new HDMI 2.0 port.

That's it. That's all I see them doing. I bet they will just keep the standard XAVC-S 100Mbp/s 8 bit internal CODEC.

Now,...that could be one hell of a camera in a big rig if you have a Shogun to record ProRes externally. This will smoke a GH5 in final image quality. Especially in low light, no doubt.

I believe this GH5 is truly historic. It's going to be known as THE camera that forced everybody to do something they never wanted to do for $2000. I really have to tip my hat to Panasonic on this. They have allot of balls to push the marketing envelope and disrupt the entire industry like this.

Bravo Lumix,....bravo!

CT

I don't see how it disrupts anything. Each manufacturer has carved out their own niche in the dslr market. Sony full frame, Canon APC, and Panasonic MFT. Each with their pros and cons. Users have the luxury of choice to pick what suits their needs. Life isn't always neatly defined where there are only winners and losers.

...It's my guess that they will add a stop or more of DR to that big beautiful sensor and clean up the signal to noise ratio buy another 1 or 2db or maybe 3db. Then they enable UHD 4:2:2 60p output over it's new HDMI 2.0 port.

Well, the HDMI 2.1 specification just got released, and hopefully that will increase the pixel clock enough to do 10bit 4:2:2 4K 60p out.

One big thing for Sony to overcome is the simultaneous record and 4K HDMI output. Panasonic overcame it, now it's Sony's turn. For goodness sakes, the FS5 has this crippling issue too.

So I'll admittedly go way out on the limb here and make a guess that Panasonic is not just buying a Sony IMX269 sensor but is also buying Sony's full pixel readout and scaling engine. Possibly even their new next generation LSI and 6k processing. (A6500 and A99-II) All this stuff is for sale if the price is right.

Yeah...I loved my FS5, I really did but that sensor is really showing its age these days. Its time for Sony to buy 2017 sensors from Sony Semiconductor and change that old FS raw protocal. I think the next FS body needs a modern 6k sensor matched to an appropriate 6k FS raw protocol. I mean, it can be the same protocol but with the new 6k pixel addresses. Then give that data configuration to Atomos and Convergent and hope they can figure out a way to deBayer it on their existing models. If not, they will need to redesign their recorders.

Hell,....im going to predict that a GH5 will literally the noise performance of an FS5 if not even beat it.

Its going to be very interesting to see somebody do that low light shootout. (I mean the A6300 already beats the FS5 in signal to noise ratio and detail)

If Sony doesn't agressively (and carefully) fight the GH5, I'd bet my life that Sony will lose significant customer numbers to the GH5 over the next 2 years.

CT

Agree Pete, it is not a fight as in a winner and a loser. That is an inappropriate metaphor. It is a competition for customer dollars which in this instance could well be a race to the bottom. But it won't be as both Sony and Panasonic are too savvy to go there.

If Sony loose significant customer numbers in this relatively small, to them, market segment it will be because there is no clear compelling business case for them to invest the R&D required to do otherwise. It will be, is already, has been for some time, a business decision driven first and foremost by a highly rigorous long term strategic plan totally bought into at the board level and secondly by other business opportunities with more compelling business cases competing for limited R&D dollars.

I agree with you Cliff, one thing you may be sure of is that Sony did not wake up the morning the full specifications of the GH5 were released and say, as we all did 'goodness gracious me, how about that'. They would have known months if not a year or two ago what was coming. If Sony had a compelling business case to compete in this market segment, to go head to head with the GH5, I suggest they would already be there, long long ago. My bet is that Sony has already lost many customers - full frame, APS-C, 1 inch - to the GH5 and that does not cause them concern as their focus, their quest for profit, is elsewhere driven by more compelling business cases.

While for us the GH5 might be seen as a game changer behind the closed boardroom doors the game already changed quite some time ago. It will not be business as usual in this market segment.

Just my opinion.

This is a good overview of the camera.
In-depth look at the brand new LUMIX GH5 - YouTube

Agree Pete, it is not a fight as in a winner and a loser. That is an inappropriate metaphor. It is a competition for customer dollars which in this instance could well be a race to the bottom. But it won't be as both Sony and Panasonic are too savvy to go there.

If Sony loose significant customer numbers in this relatively small, to them, market segment it will be because there is no clear compelling business case for them to invest the R&D required to do otherwise. It will be, is already, has been for some time, a business decision driven first and foremost by a highly rigorous long term strategic plan totally bought into at the board level and secondly by other business opportunities with more compelling business cases competing for limited R&D dollars.

I agree with you Cliff, one thing you may be sure of is that Sony did not wake up the morning the full specifications of the GH5 were released and say, as we all did 'goodness gracious me, how about that'. They would have known months if not a year or two ago what was coming. If Sony had a compelling business case to compete in this market segment, to go head to head with the GH5, I suggest they would already be there, long long ago. My bet is that Sony has already lost many customers - full frame, APS-C, 1 inch - to the GH5 and that does not cause them concern as their focus, their quest for profit, is elsewhere driven by more compelling business cases.

While for us the GH5 might be seen as a game changer behind the closed boardroom doors the game already changed quite some time ago. It will not be business as usual in this market segment.

Just my opinion.

Another interesting angle to see this GH5;

What is it that allows Panasonic to happily develop a camera with these extremely over the top specs and what is it about Sony that is negatively affecting them from doing the same?

What is it that has gotten Sony backed into a marketing corner?

Is Sony's current camera fleet way too crowded and too dense and is that strategy hurting them today?

Does Sony have too many products that are positioned too closely together to allow any of them room to breathe and compete with more aggressive features?

Is Panasonic's Pro product's marketing model superior to Sony's, allowing them to build and profit from a tremendously aggressive camera like the GH5 in a way that Sony just can't profit from?

One simple example of how twisted Sony's thinking can be is their use of SLOG-2/3. Look at the Alpha group and how they think. They give out SLOG-2/3 like it's candy! A7s/r series gets it. A6300/6500 gets it. Multiple RX Cybershots get it. Some of these are extremely cheap cameras. Meanwhile, over at XDCAM, the lowest camera allowed to have SLOG-2/3 is the $5000+ FS5. What?....Giving SLOG-2/3 to many of their lower XDCAM's would give them a great usable advantage and give the a one up over the competition. But nope,...somebody at XDCAM management is to afraid to do it. This is why a $1000 Cybershot RX100 will give you FAR more dynamic range than a rec.709, locked down, $3,200 XDCAM Z150. (and they use the same sensor...it's really sorta sad.)

Sony's "Alpha vs. XDCAM" is such a Jeckle & Hyde, two faced entity. One is a bull and the other is a bear. Alpha is cutting edge, FAST and aggressive while XDCAM is conservative, SLOW and relies heavily and constantly on recycled and repackaged electronics from other models. I dunno,....just how I see it lately.

“If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will," - Steve Jobs

I think that Sony will fire back at Panasonic with an A7s-III. (which has always been the camera they challenged the GH4/DSLR crowd with anyway.)

These 2 camera's have nothing in common at all, I think you just place them against eachother for the sake of having a discussion to see which one smokes the other one, just start with the price, the gh4 can be had for as low as 1100 euro, the a7sII is 3500 euro, that's over 3 times more expensive, full frame vs m4/3, 409600 max iso vs 6400iso just to name a few key differences.
Not even sure why the sony is brought up in this discussion.

Well Panasonic have their Pro and Consumer split too. The GH5 is part of the consumer group and has specs that look close to the DVX200 with more flexibility. However the HC-X1/UX180 are only 8 bit and no vlog where as the FZ2500 a similar 1" sensor to the UX90 I think has vlog available and is in some respects a better camera than the UX90 for less money. Appears to just miss mostly XLR interfaces !!! Also can be controlled by the consumer WiFi app with preview control not available for the UX90 !! The HC-X1 and UX180 have no competition in the Sony range in my mind as they have UHD 60 etc though they are short of 10bit !!

My focus in ordering the GH5 is purely UHD 60P video with the opportunity to buy an Atomos Inferno and get UHD 60P 10bit 4:2:2 output. The combined cost of this setup is less than the FS5 that does not have UHD 60P. It will end up on a tripod in the theatre with a fast lens. For a general cam outdoors etc I think I would pick the FZ2500 and may go this way and sell my AX100. Been a Sony guy for a long time but the latest set of Panasonic cameras are hitting a lot of the things I want.

Ron Evans

These 2 camera's have nothing in common at all, I think you just place them against eachother for the sake of having a discussion to see which one smokes the other one, just start with the price, the gh4 can be had for as low as 1100 euro, the a7sII is 3500 euro, that's over 3 times more expensive, full frame vs m4/3, 409600 max iso vs 6400iso just to name a few key differences.
Not even sure why the sony is brought up in this discussion.

You are right Noa, hehe....i think i did hijack the thread with Panny vs. Sony talk.

Yes, they are very different cameras but I suspect that they DO compete for the same customers to a certain degree. Look at me? I'm an A7s-II owner and i just pre ordered the GH5 myself.

Also, just because the GH5 is cheaper doesn't mean it's not comparable to Sony A7x models. In fact, I strongly suspect that the GH5 will hurt Sony A7x sales considerably, even with the sensor size difference. The fact that it IS cheaper and overflowing with crazy, never seen before features will make everybody think twice before buying a new Sony A7x.

So yeah,...they ARE different cameras but I'm sure they are competing over the exact same buyers wallets and pocket books.

Sorry for the thread hijack. ;-)

It's crazy to think how fast equipment is changing/moving. Just a few years ago I purchased a Sony PMW500 body, this was their flagship model back then and was in high demand, low light sucked on this thing and the the body set me back 34k however it shot 50Mbps 4:2:2.

Fast forward now... a few thousand bucks gets you a camera that fits in your back pack fantastic lowlight 4K and bit rates I only dreamed of back then WOW.

I'm still a Sony fanboy as all my cameras are the Mirrorless ones (sold everything when the A7s came out) and now the GH5 is looking great.

Amazing how cheap everything is now.

I just watch the GH5 in-depth look video, wow... they have packed everything into this thing and hang on... did he say 3hrs on one battery.

I don't know much about the GH4/5 and i'm going to look and learn a lot more I think. I stayed away from the GH4 and went all the way with Sony, I gota say the A7 series cameras are great however I find getting the right colours a challenge and I have always liked the look of Panasonic.

Ok, take my money.

I wonder what Sony will bring out?

It's astonishing how much Panasonic has shoved into this GH5. I mean, My God, I have to buy it, I pretty much have no choice in the matter. Really, how in the heck does anybody expect me to resist so much for so little? It's like they are giving us a Lamborghini for the price of a Ford mustang.

As a crazy nutty die hard, faithful Sony fanboy,...realistically, what could I do? Say "no"?...Yeah right!

Panasonic has easily and very quickly seduced me with the GH5.

And now I'm about to cheat. Sorry Sony :-(

Common Cliff, get over it; you can do it.. It's only tough the first time. I was a Sony fanboy too and I made the huge leap to Panasonic. Repeat after me 'I am done with Sony cams, done done done; that's it'. The hardcore Sony fanboys are in denial and will take a little longer to see the light ;-)

But seriously, the feature set the GH5 brings to the table is remarkable at that price. At any price what piece of kit has a matching set of specs?

Be excited as it is exciting. Laugh with joy and be merry!

Oh Panasonic, oh panny, for you I slap my fanny; panny panny panny (repeat ad nauseam) :-)

lol,...Oh John, I was only dramatically joking in the corniest way. ;-)

I must say that I'm dying to know what Sony's next chess move is.

Uggg,...The only thing is that I have allot of money invested in Sony glass. I wont be leaving my A7S-II rig whatsoever. I love that beast way too much and it has done amazing things for me. (much more than my FS5 did) But, I do have several Rokinon EF Cine lenses to use on the GH5. I'm just not looking forward to starting a new Micro 4/3 lens buying spree from scratch. That sucks.

I'll take it one day at a time with that GH5.

CT

lol,...Oh John, I was only dramatically joking in the corniest way. ;-)
CT

I know, and so was I and perhaps even more corny than you, I reckon :-)

(do you think we might get banned for being frivolous?)

I have to buy it, I pretty much have no choice in the matter. Really, how in the heck does anybody expect me to resist so much for so little?

You remind me a bit of Gollem in LOTR :)

I will sit this one out to see how the camera performs IRL, I have a g80 on order (which cost me 640euro excl vat) to combine with my gx80 (which is 415 euro) which will be my main 2 camera's for all my handheld work and then I have the gh4 on a gimbal for the weddings that I do in 2017. With the exception of the GH5 current Panasonic dslr's are just so dirt cheap yet pack a lot of punch that they are the best investment I have made the past year. IBIS has allowed me to shoot in a much faster, lighter and different way (no more dragging a monopod around) that it has improved the overal look of the weddings I shoot solo and gave me enough confidence to charge more for my work. So a minimal investment and a max profit, what's not to like about that? :)

I expect the gh5 to go down in price a few months after it hit's the streets and then I might consider to buy it end of this year or beginning 2018.

I see many people getting exited about the codec but for me the IBIS is the most valuable part, being able to shoot in 4:2:2 10 bit won't make any difference in the type of work I do, vlog I don't care about and 4K 50p would be usable but only for the slowmotion which I sometimes use in my trailers. Currently I only use 4K if I want to be able to reframe in post, otherwise I prefer to shoot 1080p 50p all the time. The dual card recording is then again a valuable safety feature and the add on xlr box that takes power true the hotshoe and doesn't require any cables to connect to the camera will be useful as well in certain scenarios. The fact it can shoot in 12800 iso now and by the looks of it doesn't produce more noise then the gh4 makes at 6400 iso is a big plus as well considering all the dark venues I end up in. The 180fps won't be used that much, I never even used 96fps on the gh4, but I guess that in some cases it might be useful. All in all Panasonic has made a considerable improvement over the GH4, if only they could improve the autofocus.

I see many people getting exited about the codec but for me the IBIS is the most valuable part, being able to shoot in 4:2:2 10 bit won't make any difference in the type of work I do, vlog I don't care about and 4K 50p would be usable but only for the slowmotion which I sometimes use in my trailers.

To be fair, IBIS is hardly a new feature, so its understandable that the codec gets the attention here, and whilst not something you personally need - it comes as a useful feature for some of the things I shoot in my work. I'll be buying the GH5 as soon as its out and it'll sit as the crown jewel amongst my GX80, G80 and 2 GH4Rs.

For the gh5 ibis is a new feature, compared to the gh4 it's like night and day when you shoot with unstabilized primes which makes it a very useful and welcome feature. Beside the 4K50p, what advantages would the new codec give you?

I think that a majority of people that get exited about the codec have no idea how to get the most of it, it's just a few that actually need it and know how to manipulate it, the rest just wants to have it because they think their footage will become magically so much better, I have seen enough poorly graded log footage to prove my point. When you combine the GH5 with other camera's, like the g80, gx85 or gh4 I also wonder how that will turn out when you shoot vlog, spend a lot of time grading it and then find out it doesn't match any of your other camera's footage. You can also ask yourself if it's worth all the extra time grading your footage when you have to shoot and edit a wedding every weekend. Same goes for the very high bitrates, I always shoot at 50mbs for HD which I find a very effective bitrate, never crossed my mind to shoot at 200mbs because I can't see the difference from a normal viewing distance. Same applies for 4K, 100mbs has been plenty for my needs, not saying that high bitrates are useless, I"m sure some will benefit from fast motion and scenes with high detail but again for the majority of users that end up with the GH5 most of the bitrates will be overkill.
Just to have Cliff as an example, he certainly looks overly exited over the camera's specifications that he has preordered a gh5, but I would like to see what he actually thinks the camera does for him that his a7sII cannot do.

I think that a majority of people that get exited about the codec have no idea how to get the most of it, it's just a few that actually need it and know how to manipulate it, the rest just wants to have it because they think their footage will become magically so much better, I have seen enough poorly graded log footage to prove my point.

I agree that many here will invest in the GH5 for the reasons you mention; and others simply for the boast factor. However 4:2:2 isn't just about vLog, if I was doing green screen work and I occasionally do, it can be very useful. I have also become very interested in colour grading and was given a book for Xmas on it so I can pursue this even further. I agree it can be done badly but with practise and skill, it can be done well and the codec will make a difference. I was disappointed last year in trying to colour grade some Trailers to see banding in some shots even with minor grades. It's flat walls and blue skies that suffer badly and the image can quickly fall apart in 8 bit.

Like you, I do not intend to shoot all my Weddings in maximum codec and bitrate. That would be impossible given the number I do. It would be useful for some select shots only in my Wedding work. I wouldn't really use it to balance with other cameras in a multi camera filming. I have enough issues using different lenses where some footage looks better depending on which lens I use. However there are plenty of shots in bright and high contrast situations where I feel footage would benefit from some extra DR and with the GH5's new codecs allow me an easier time in grading to compensate.

Plus I do some Promo videos where a higher codec for good colour grading can be useful. Some clients are after a particular look they've seen in another video and that can be hard to achieve sometimes with 8 bit 4:2:0

I did experiment with vLog last year but gave up as I couldn't grade it to my satisfaction. I've enjoyed more success recently after a thread on the GH4 forum led me to the Panasonic LUT. I was very pleased with the results and how quickly I achieved them with a little further tweaking. The only thing holding me back from benefiting from the extra DR is the weaker codec. So I look forward to the GH5 allowing me to pursue this further.

I think that a majority of people that get exited about the codec have no idea how to get the most of it, it's just a few that actually need it and know how to manipulate it, the rest just wants to have it because they think their footage will become magically so much better, I have seen enough poorly graded log footage to prove my point. When you combine the GH5 with other camera's, like the g80, gx85 or gh4 I also wonder how that will turn out when you shoot vlog, spend a lot of time grading it and then find out it doesn't match any of your other camera's footage. You can also ask yourself if it's worth all the extra time grading your footage when you have to shoot and edit a wedding every weekend.

On Vlog L: I agree with you that most of the "graded" footage we see in forums based on Vlog is dispiriting at best.

I have now experimented with using Vlog L on the GH4. I had the same fears as you about the amount of time needed and the inability to match the look with that of other Panasonic cameras (I have the GX85). The answer, however, is the Panasonic-supplied REC709 LUT. In Resolve, for example, you use the LUT as the 3D Output LUT and you see all the clips in REC709 color and contrast. And the clips then look exactly like 'Standard' PP in Panasonic's other cameras. So no problem on color. You then can take advantage of the extra DR - the headroom - to deal with shadows and highs better. But it really is no more work.

The only disadvantage with the GH4 is that when you shoot Vlog, you see the washed out look in the viewfinder/lcd. On the GH5, the REC709 LUT will be applicable in-camera, so you also see what the final output looks like in real time.

Here are three videos I shot in Vlog L and edited using the LUT - no "color grading":

Panasonic GH4+Shogun Inferno 4K Video: Whitney Woods Shot in Vlog L and Using the Panasonic REC709 LUT on Vimeo

Panasonic GH4+Shogun Inferno 4K Video: In the Rain on Vimeo

Panasonic GH4 + Shogun Inferno 4K (Vlog L) Video: Snow Day on Vimeo

To me the colors are fine, and very much like I get straight from Panasonic's other cameras. What you cannot see is the advantage - that I had plenty of choices about where in the limited REC709 dynamic range I wanted to emphasize.

Btw, my reason for shooting with Vlog L and using the Shogun was to produce HDR video (and it works) , but I am sure your customers are not ready for that, let alone 4K.

For the gh5 ibis is a new feature, compared to the gh4 it's like night and day when you shoot with unstabilized primes which makes it a very useful and welcome feature. Beside the 4K50p, what advantages would the new codec give you?

IBIS isn't a new feature in that it's already been seen and used before on cameras at this price level. I already have 2 cameras with it, so naturally I'm not as excited about it as say the codec. That said, I love IBIS and it benefits me enormously. Its just not a new feature to me.

As for advantages, I think I've already covered that in my last post; alas I saw your earlier post after replying to your later one. Simply to add, its more my non Wedding work where I see most of the benefits re codec. Wedding work will just be as and when I think it could be useful and if I have the time for it. However as I do like to employ some colour grading, and have had banding issues in the past when trying to implement even light grading to shots, I think it would give me some advantages if I can learn to recognise the type of shots that would likely need the extra codec.

Just to have Cliff as an example, he certainly looks overly exited over the camera's specifications that he has preordered a gh5, but I would like to see what he actually thinks the camera does for him that his a7sII cannot do.

For most rec709 shooting, 8bit works great. Even for SLOG-2, 8bit can often do a good job. I have allot of Sony SLOG-2/3 experience and I use them heavily these days. I dont have any V-LOG experience at all. I need to look up what the gamma graph looks like. I dont know if V-LOG has any kind of shoulders or knees mapped into it..

Anyhoo, with SLOG-3, you "can" pull 8bit apart and get banding and other color separation problems on certain scenes. But with 10 bit, you can notch in, stretch, bend, shift and lift almost all you want and you wont see any problems.

For rec.709? I think 10bit is a useless waste of space for that. If your image in camera is 95% what you are going to deliver, 8bit on a solid CODEC is plenty to get you the rest of the way.

My A7s-II? That's not going anywhere. I'm interested in the 6k anamorphic lens capture of the entire vertical and horizontal sensor size, multiple frame rates for slo-mo and no time limit. It's a good B,C or D camera that I can leave on a tripod during a show for 2 hours while I'm getting other angles with other cameras. Chroma keying will be extremely accurate with the GH5.

There are allot of reasons why the GH5 would be a great companion to my A7S-II. Yes, the A7s-II will always be my low light weapon or high dynamic range tool of choice.

CT

4:2:2 is a big one for me, having to attach something to my Sony gear is a pain so internal 4:2:2 10bit is a winner.

I guess this is the start now, 4:2:2 as a standard for future hybrid style cameras, exciting times I reckon.

With my Sony A7 cams I don't shoot log and with the GH5 I would problem do the same, I just hope that low light capture won't kill this off for me.

Agree Simon,

422, 10 bit for me is a must. I have held off on the new Olympus and will see what this camera can really offer once on the market. Until then keep working with the tools I own.

I was about to grab a Sony A6500 and will wait now. This GH5 interests me and same as you Paul, I'll keep plugging away with my gear.

The one thing about the GH5 is, it's Broadcast ready in a small package so when I shoot, I won't stand out like I use to with the Big Sony Broadcast cameras.

I've been watching everything on the net from GH4-GH5 and find the images are really murky in the bottom end and highlights tend to blow out fast like a JVC Image.. I know.... there are so many variables going on here, just my observation. The Sonys (from my eye) tends to hold both information a bit better. I would love to do a side by side of a GH5 & Sony A7s or something.

Yup, small would be nice. And it is getting there. So far I am not blown away by the images from the camera, but only time will tell once the production version is out. NAB is only three months away an I plan on going this year.

Will see what else is out and ready to roll for a small camera that can do 422, 10 bit, and hopefully 400Mb/s. And let me go 16mm (full frame equivalent) wide with out distortion.

I'm thinking I might grab the GH5 now after watching and reading everything I can over the weekend, looks great for my needs.

Now, I know nothing about lenses with the Panasonic so can someone advice me on two lenses I should be looking at. I would like a wide and some sort of zoom.

My current lenses are Sony EMount 11-18mm & 18-200mm and I use these in crop mode on the A7s.

Cheers, Simon

Best all purpose zoom; the panasonic 12-35mm f2.8

Thanks Noa, Iv'e been looking at that and seems the one. How about something longer? the 35-100 f2.8 is that worth it. I'm so lost with these lenses and the Micro Four Thirds.

Here are three videos I shot in Vlog L and edited using the LUT - no "color grading":

Panasonic GH4+Shogun Inferno 4K Video: Whitney Woods Shot in Vlog L and Using the Panasonic REC709 LUT on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/198130171)

Panasonic GH4+Shogun Inferno 4K Video: In the Rain on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/197464360)

Panasonic GH4 + Shogun Inferno 4K (Vlog L) Video: Snow Day on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/198420116)


Hate to break it to ya, but another "4K HDR" YouTube channel just stole some of your videos and are reposting them with monetization enabled.

Thanks Noa, Iv'e been looking at that and seems the one. How about something longer? the 35-100 f2.8 is that worth it. I'm so lost with these lenses and the Micro Four Thirds.

I don' have the 35-100 so can't speak for that lens, some other lenses worth mentioning that I use at weddings:
Panasonic 42,5mm f1.7: stabilized, very small, light and inexpensive, does feel a bit plasticy and cheap but has the best price/performance you can find for a prime lens. The Panasonic Leica Nocticron 42.5mm f/1.2 is also stabilized, better build and of higher quality but a lot more expensive.
Olympus 75mm f1.8: one of the best lenses in the Olympus line up, "expensive" but a very high quality piece of glass, build like tank.
Olympus 12mm f2.0: Looks like a toy lens because it's so small and light but is one of my best wide lenses, it has blazing fast autofocus when you press the shutterbutton, even when it's dark, stays on the steadicam all day long, it's rare I miss focus with this lens.
Olympus 40-150 f2.8: Again one of Olympus high quality lenses, very solid buildquality, excellent glass and a 80 to 300mm f2.8 full frame equivalent reach which is unheard of for that price, only annoying part about Olympus zoom lenses is that the zoomring turns the other way, manually focusing is a bit tricky as the ring requires a very gentle touch for finetuning your focus. The panasonic 35-100 f2.8 is smaller and lighter but does not have the same reach.
Olympus 9-18mm f4.0-5.6: not very useful in dark venues but for the occasional very wide shot it's a very good performer and again very small and light.

Another lens that is on my wishlist:
Panasonic 7-14mm f4 or the Olympus 7-14mm f2.8, the Olympus is the better lens and has better build quality, is more expensive and the focus rings turns the wrong way which can be annoying but both lenses have a very good performance, none of them will disappoint.

Other that that, about any lens in existence will fit a Panasonic camera, just get the right adapter for it. Also something to think about, if you buy a M4/3 lens you get stuck into that system, those lenses will not fit any other camera that doesn't have a m4/3 mount.

Thanks Noa, fantastic info right there and I appreciate the time and effort for this.

When I sold my 5D I was about to grab a GH4 and that never happened due to the A7s, so I purchased an A7s and lenses, two lenses and been really enjoying this. I have the first A7s so no internal 4K and extra frame rates, It's funny and sad to say this, the A7s I have is now almost old news now, it works great etc... although some clients want the A7s M2. Don't start me on that one....

Anyway, I'm gonna give the GH5 a go, get a basic kit and see how it goes.


Thanks again mate.

Oh, just want yo say that I''m keeping my Sony A7s kit, it works and looks great and don't really want to part with this setup yet.

Hi Simon,

I have been using the Olympus OM-D 1 MK i for a couple years now for my stills. Excellent setup and I do not miss my 5DMK2 or IDX.

The lens collection I have is all Olympus.

7-14, 2.8 Pro; Very nice sharp glass. Little more distortion then I would like, so I do not use that much.

12-40, 2.8 Pro; My go to lens and stays on the camera all the time. Sharp and just right for most shots.

75, 1.8 ED, MSC; fast,sharp, and great for street photography and portraits.

40-150, 2.8 Pro; excellent lens, sharp, very well built as are all of their pro lens. This is a go to when I need any reach. Also have the 1.4 x extender which slows it down but stays pretty sharp.

300, 4.0 Pro, I was thinking of getting this but If I switched to GH5 I would go Panasonic glass to match the OS, unless Olympus OS works in the GH5.

This is a nice set but not sure if they are right for the GH5. As with Olympus OMD-1 MKII the GH5 has 5 axis stabilization and matches it with their new glass. I would think since you are starting out buy the Panasonic glass with the OS in the lens that connects with the GH5, 5 axis stabilization. I do not know if the GH5 will connect with the Olympus OS glass as said above, but that is a big question. I will not believe marketing on this only end users testing. But, I have to say the Olympus lens I own easily match the Canon L glass I use to own in quality.

Thanks Paul, more great advice, really dig that mate, cheers.

My very first camera was a Panasonic and I still have this, I have to let it go as the thing is low res 4x3 but man, I loved those colours outa that thing and that is what has brought me back I think.

Anyway, I'm gonna have one foot in Sony and one in Panasonic for a while as sus it out, things move to fast to invest in a final system these days, well for me anyway, I change every few years. One thing I have learnt to hold onto are, lenses.... keep them, they come in handy when you change you mind and go with a new system.

Cheers, Simon

Sounds like a good plan Simon,

Keep posting what you find with the GH5. Also in the mind of three cameras two Sony one Panasonic all the time plus my POV's, and stills. Look forward to keeping my gear smaller. Not like the PMW500, F800 days.

I do not know if the GH5 will connect with the Olympus OS glass as said above, but that is a big question. I will not believe marketing on this only end users testing. But, I have to say the Olympus lens I own easily match the Canon L glass I use to own in quality.

I don't expect that the gh5 will be any different from my gx80 or the g80, the sensor stabilization will stabilize any lens you put on it, from what I understand only a few panasonic lenses are currently compatible with panasonics improved dual ibis 2 but that will certainly change with firmware updates, Olympus lenses will not benefit from that but my experience with my Olympus lenses is that the sensor stabilization alone looks like it performs just as well a dual ibis, I can handhold a 75mm (150mm full frame equivalent) very steady.

Noa,

As for Olympus OS lens working on the GH5, we do not know until it is tried. That was my point, I was not going to guess, it has to be tried.

My OMD-1 MKI 5 axis stabilization is excellent. I hand hold the 40-150mm lens at 150 with the 1.4x on all the time with very sharp pictures. And having tried the 300 OS Olympus lens it is a huge step up, much better then just the sensor 5 axis.

I think the 5 axis stabilization is the next step is making hand held shots work. I have owned gimbals, but do not like them and do not use them anymore. Hoping the GH5 and other cameras will keep pushing the technology of 5 axis options.

Fun to follow this camera, and see who takes it one more step.

ah ok, you mean a stabilized olympus lens, I was not even aware Olympus had stabilized lenses. The info I have read so far is that currently it only works well with a selection of panasonic stabilized lenses