The other big question I've always had about using video downloads is the use of music.

Can I set up a site that streams or sells an event (Dance Recital, Choir Concert, or wedding) that uses copyrighted music without opening up a whole can of worms?

The only VOD I currently have for sale was a band that owned the rights to their own music, so it wasn't an issue, but my kids' school has me record all of their plays and choir concerts, and they sing music and arrangements that people own. There are some forward thinking parents who have asked me about making the concerts available via HD downloads/streaming, but the music is the thing always holding me back.

The other big question I've always had about using video downloads is the use of music.

Can I set up a site that streams or sells an event (Dance Recital, Choir Concert, or wedding) that uses copyrighted music without opening up a whole can of worms?

The only VOD I currently have for sale was a band that owned the rights to their own music, so it wasn't an issue, but my kids' school has me record all of their plays and choir concerts, and they sing music and arrangements that people own. There are some forward thinking parents who have asked me about making the concerts available via HD downloads/streaming, but the music is the thing always holding me back.

If the school are performing the shows to an audience, then they must have the permission of the copyright holders to do that. That is pretty standard as most schools these days buy in scripts and music. Sometimes the copyright permission extends to video rights, but have a chat to the school and find out what their permissions are and maybe contact the rights holder. If the streaming is for parents only via a secure link rather than open internet viewing, it should be straightforward, probably with a credit to the copyright holder. If however the school have taken it on their own backs to just use commercial music, then they are doing so illegally anyway.

Roger

The other big question I've always had about using video downloads is the use of music.

Why would online distribution be any different from DVD in this regard? Don't you need permission to use copyrighted material in a video, regardless of the distribution medium?

Why would online distribution be any different from DVD in this regard? Don't you need permission to use copyrighted material in a video, regardless of the distribution medium?

You would always need permission to use copyright material, no matter whether it was music in a production or the script of the production, or in a video or any other distribution media of the copyright material.

The scope of the permission depends on the potential audience. Most schools that I film in the UK, pay for the licence to perform to the parents and usually for the right to produce a limited number of the DVDs. They are only having enough DVDs to cover a very limited and controlled distribution to parents, but it would likely be a totally different situation of the recording was put out as an open internet stream, with an unknown and uncontrolled number of viewers. It's the same in professional broadcasting, where licenses vary according to the territory, potential viewing times and numbers etc.

Roger

In the UK & Australia unlike the US there is a scheme in place that allows videographers to licence copyright music for use on small production runs of DVDs at a low cost. There is no such scheme available to licence copyright music for online streaming use. As in the US many videographers simply ignore the issue on the basis that they will never get sued.

Generally larger schools don't allow me to sell individual dvds instead pay me a flat fee and some I'm sure make free copies for the cast. Any other small independent dance or drama group play fast and lose with the rules. No doubt selling online increases your chances of having a problem. Most people in this type of business are more worried about trying to eek out enough sales to make a living.

Unfortunately there are a number of issues to overcome with regards to selling downloads vs discs. You have all touched on the copyright and technical sides, (in the UK there is also the safeguarding issue. Schools like the disc format, because they perceive that this means they are controlling the distribution of the video. They presume that this allows them to control who has access to the film, and from their perspective it reduces the need for policing of social media for people posting clips of other peoples children. (One show we filmed I was told by a parent that someone was live streaming the whole thing to facebook from their phone :-)
I have been asked on more than one occasion to confirm when I will destroy my copy of a schools film, as part of their data security policy.. I have declined to do this.

While people don't want a DVD, unfortunately the hurdles to change the format will take time. Its not the technology that's the biggest barrier, its the other factors.

I am in the process of doing a proof of concept for a download only option with an independent school. The idea being that the filming costs are built into the fees, (I realise this doesn't help your situation Roger). But its interesting to try the concept and see how well it works.

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

It's great to hear that you are exploring other avenues and although it doesn't help my immediate situation, it is something that I am also carefully looking into. You are absolutely right about the schools liking the DVDs from the protection of children aspect, which I think I also mentioned in an earlier post.

I also started a new thread on the costs and profitability of streaming which might spark some input from those already doing it or contemplating it. Hopefully it will help with sourcing equipment, hosting etc.

Roger

I have skipped over a lot of replies but there seems to be general concensus about storage media. The question of delivery of new performances in better file quality seems quite open. I am thinking for small runs it could be feasible to record, edit, place on a cloud like Blue Box ,or whatever the name is, and supplying a link to individual purchasers. Yes, again possible for links to be shared. Someone earlier suggested putting the purchasers name in the link,at least as a detergent. I bought photo book online and the actual product came with me as the owner. This presumably stops/slows people from distributing. Not bad.
Music and other copywriter issues are another area with no easy answer. Mind you Disney probably would sue almost anyone for infrindgement. Here in Canada there is a trade group called SOCAN which collects fees for musicians etc. Part of the performance fees at a theatre are collected by them based on several criteria. In the case of classics, such as Nutcracker, there is no charge. Modern stuff yes. They even tried to charge my dentist for having a radio to sooth his patients. Told them to take a hike and turned off the radio. Now to add injury he breaks into song. More anesthetic please.

I am seriously, as a one man band, so to speak, thinking of offering a purchase of a dvd (usually $20 and adding a download for an additional $5. Not high finance but might increase the dvd sales and add a few bucks. Have to check out storage sizes and download speeds. Will it work for people with a 4k tv? Is it worth shooting in 4k?

Looks like more questions ... answers?

Cheers
Martin

Any suggestions as to where to store files for download? What about videos an hour long shot in 4K? File format to use?

Help....
Martin

Any suggestions as to where to store files for download? What about videos an hour long shot in 4K? File format to use?

Help....
Martin

I can't answer your question, and perhaps you might not want to, either. Are you selling to the average consumer? I produce and sell many DVDs with occasional Blu-rays. Zero is the number of consumers in my sphere who would (1) know what 4k is, (2) be patient to await download of gargantuan hour-long 4k files, and (3) be savvy enough to bounce them to a 4k display.

I shoot in 4k and downrez to 1080p, FYI.

thanks Steve
Yes you are quite right about how many people would connect all the dots with 4K. I have enough problem myself...

How much difference do you find by shooting in 4K and downing to 1080? Is it worth the time/cost of camera? I expect it is a judgement call.
Reason I ask is that I am seriously thinking of upgrading from a Sony PD 150 with 4x3 screen to a ax100. Yes, I know that would be going from a "Pro" camera to a "consumer" one but quite the difference. How many years? I would need to get a XLR box for board connection.
Thanks for your comments.

Martin

I'm with Steve on the storage for download, non of my clients are interested in 4K delivery and most people I know still often have problems streaming full HD programmes.

I shoot in 4K and not only does dropping it down to 1080 look better, the ability to crop, zoom into frames and pan from the 4K makes it incredibly fllexible for editing different shots from one clip. I am currently working on a school production that I shot in 4K, and from one general full stage clip I am cutting to close ups, medium shots and across stage pans.

Roger

Yep. Totally agree with Roger, concerning shooting in 4k and downrezzing to 1080. I grade 4k source material on a 4k timeline (in Resolve), downrez to 1080 on final export, and add a touch of sharpening on compression for Blu-ray (because I shoot with camera sharpening off). It looks fantastic. FYI, I shoot on a Sony FS700 in 4k DCI; it isn't the most comfortable camera handheld, but on a tripod I have it completely rigged in a cage and with an Atomos Shogun external recorder.

I think you'll notice a substantial increase in image quality from the AX100. What you'll miss, I believe, are the ergonomics and controls of a proper video camera. Depending on how serious you are about audio, you might invest in a separate audio recorder to accompany the AX100, and then sync in post.

Keeping somewhat on topic for this thread, I've begun to lament general disinterest in DVD (and Blu-ray) purchases of various productions. For school clients, patrons don't seem interested in pro-level production or else are content with their deplorable video (and especially audio!) on hand-held devices. I shoot archival copies of some productions for flat fees, and I'm trying hard to achieve the same with typical concert shoots.

Wow. What a read.
Ive been to the Wedding and Event forum before a few times but never realised there were so many of you doing what I mainly do, being the Dance Concert and DVD distribution.

Ive only been doing this a short time, prob 5 or 6 years, and gone from a hobbyist to now doing months on end of live capture and distribution. Mainly from Nov to Jan, being Dance concert season, but also runs during the year of Eisteddfods.

So take any thoughts I have with a grain of salt as Im a bit of a newb compared to a lot of you.

I deliver everything on DVD. The last 2 years we have used structural copy protection on all discs. It has increased sales.
Yes, I know you can crack it, I can crack it, but the average mum or dad couldn’t be bothered, and Ive even been told by some of the parents that they like it so when another parent asks to get a copy, they shut them down and say “No, its copy protected”.
Who wants to lend out what they have paid for……?
Ive recently been in contact with Vinpower digital and my rep says they are finalising USB copy protected USB drives. No doubt they are not uncrackable. But even if its like the DVD protection, it will be enough. Then we can go 1080p. Woo Hoo!

Which leads into my next observation.
I am passionate about this.
I don’t think we can sell the cheapest product, made by the cheapest camera, and hope everyone will be happy with it.
What we can give them on that DVD is precious.
Its a point in time that they and there kids will never be at again. Some of you are right, its not worth $50 or $60…. its worth 10 times that.
I would pay $1000+ to have my 25yo sons drum solo that he did when he was 10 on DVD, 1500 people giving him a standing ovation. I watched from the back of the hall, tears ran down my cheeks I was so proud. It lives in my memory only….
Not long after that I bought my first handycam.

I try to give the schools a better quality than they have had before. Then educate the Principals that this is what you can have, so get your parents to support it.
They do.
The parents themselves are so happy to have quality footage of their kids, they don’t need a lot of encouragement to spend the money. Not a concert goes by that Im not told how much they appreciate that I am there doing the capture. Thats a feelgood experience.
These people arn’t struggling to part with their money, they want to.

All of our repeat business Dance schools have increasing numbers of sales every year.
And we pick up an average of 5 new schools every year.
It has to top out eventually, you can only be in so many places at one time. This year thanks to the help of some talent off this very forum, we did three concerts in three venues in one day.

I guess to sum up, I don’t think the DVD market is shrinking. Not from my experience anyway.
It would be great to do a deal with the schools where every parent pays a fee that entitles them to a download. I thought this would be great.
But in talking to a fair few parents, they still want that DVD.
They want menus, credits, jackets. They want the look on their kids face when they unwrap it Christmas morning (Yes a lot of them do this).

cheers guys

Hey Gerald

My mate used to work for a guy over East who did concerts and the like and they used to shoot the event and mix and record to a HDD. When the mum's and dad's came out they could buy an instant USB drive of the entire concert so they was no editing (I'm assuming they simply switched cameras live as the mixer we use for live broadcast also is able to record to an MP4 file) and no delivery hassles ...they simply copied the footage for each parent onto a USB and took their money! I know a USB drive costs more than a blank DVD but you do save on printing, making and printing sleeves and buying cases and I currently buy 8GB USB's for $2.50 each so I'm sure if you bought them in bulk they would be even cheaper, and of course they are getting an HD copy as opposed to a SD one.

It seemed quite an efficient way to distribute the event ?

Keeping somewhat on topic for this thread, I've begun to lament general disinterest in DVD (and Blu-ray) purchases of various productions. For school clients, patrons don't seem interested in pro-level production or else are content with their deplorable video (and especially audio!) on hand-held devices. I shoot archival copies of some productions for flat fees, and I'm trying hard to achieve the same with typical concert shoots.

Hi Steve,

I've definitely seen a drop off on DVD sales over the last 12 months from the same schools that have had consistent numbers in the past. As we regularly have schools contacting us to say how delighted parents have been with the recordings, it can't be down to our work so I can only assume less people have players.

I don't agree that parents are content with poor quality video and audio because of the feed back we have always received. We always get good audio quality and with usually four cameras for different angles and closeups, the production values are pretty high for a school show.

Prices are difficult to increase, as parents love the videos, but probably don't appreciate the real value until years later, just as Gerald would love to see his son's drum solo. We tend to keep prices around the school photo level which seems to be about what parents expect. Having said that, a number of photographers are telling me that they are selling less ans less school photos as parents take their own pics on phones.

Roger

Hi Roger

You also have to remember that as videographers, we strive for the best quality we can..it's just our nature! However apart from wobbly or out of focus footage I doubt whether many parents actually "pixel peep" .. I remember a wedding client watching a demo beach wedding on DVD that was shot with my 4:3 cameras (Panasonic MD10000's) with tiny 1/6" CCD sensors and he remarked how clear the picture was on his 55" TV!! I was petrified when he watched the modest 720x576 video on this giant screen (5 years ago 55" was a giant screen as most clients had normal CRT TV's) ... I very much doubt whether mum's and dad's would be that concerned about resolution when their darling in on the screen!!

It's 2017 and brides STILL seem to want DVD's ...now and again a "tech savvy" groom might ask about FULL HD or even 4K but I'm pretty sure most parents don't give a hoot about tech specs as long as it's watchable. More than likely they have dropped the DVD player because some slick salesman at the TV store has convinced them to upgrade. Then again over here Video Stores have all but disappeared from our shopping centres but you can still get DVD movies from vending machines now. However with the introduction of cheap online content (Stan over here is a mere $10 a month!) I guess family DVD players will become less and less so we have to think forward and be prepared when the time comes.

I guess it will soon be time to find some sort of sleeve insert that fits into all your spare DVD cases that has a cutout for a USB. At least that way you can still give schools a physical product for their money?

I guess it will soon be time to find some sort of sleeve insert that fits into all your spare DVD cases that has a cutout for a USB. At least that way you can still give schools a physical product for their money?

Hi Chris,

Funny you should say that, I've been looking for precisely that sort of thing, trouble is anything I find seems to be priced in pounds rather than pence!

Roger

I don't agree that parents are content with poor quality video and audio because of the feed back we have always received. We always get good audio quality and with usually four cameras for different angles and closeups, the production values are pretty high for a school show.

Roger, in reading your comment I realized that I dashed off a remark likely without enough clarification. I judged interest in DVDs (and Blu-rays) by the crude metric of sales. I've worked with schools to heavily promote my videos, some samples of which are on YT (see my site) so parents can actually see exemplars of what they'd be purchasing. Hence, I don't think poor marketing is the culprit. Anecdotal feedback on quality is superb, so I don't think patrons fail to part with a couple of bucks for want of realization that they would receive professional quality. And optical disc players are as ubiquitous as toasters.

Then...what? I suspect that an objective viewer would appreciate a slick DVD of their kids, think "that's very nice but I'm not buying it," and then drop $4 for that latte at Starbucks on the way home. Link to streaming video pushed to a mobile device, free, and viewable right now whilst driving and enjoying that latte? You bet!

Hey Gerald

My mate used to work for a guy over East who did concerts and the like and they used to shoot the event and mix and record to a HDD. When the mum's and dad's came out they could buy an instant USB drive of the entire concert so they was no editing (I'm assuming they simply switched cameras live as the mixer we use for live broadcast also is able to record to an MP4 file) and no delivery hassles ...they simply copied the footage for each parent onto a USB and took their money! I know a USB drive costs more than a blank DVD but you do save on printing, making and printing sleeves and buying cases and I currently buy 8GB USB's for $2.50 each so I'm sure if you bought them in bulk they would be even cheaper, and of course they are getting an HD copy as opposed to a SD one.

It seemed quite an efficient way to distribute the event ?

Hi Chris,
That would be the dream, no work in post at all.
Logically I can't see it though. Even if what you laid down as a live cut track was the finished file, say a 720p MP4, with no menu, CC, audio corrections etc, how would you duplicate it enough times to have it available in the 3-5 min between curtain drop and the punters leaving the theatre?

I did see this done once successfully. Different situation though.
When our daughter graduated university there was a team there to capture the whole graduation, single cam, sdi out to a capture PC in the foyer. While everyone was milling around outside they had the DVDs ready to go.
The lines were big, I was in one lol. $30 a DVD and they must have sold a few hundred at least.
That is a very nice days work.
The difference is they had that extra time to run them off.
Prerequisites though, you have a professional mpg2 capable capture card and I think there were multiple towers of burners. Small investment though if you have the gig forever.

Hi Gerald

Sadly I wasn't part of it so I'm not sure of how the operation worked ..maybe he had an operator who was just putting single performances of each dance number on USB's as they finished while the next performance was running so he had a stock of USB's ready for sale? I'll have to ask my mate how he did it.

Yeah, I love the idea of doing a live edit so there is no post work but you need to really be on the ball I guess? We are concentrating a lot on live broadcasting events so the post work is eliminated. The big studios have been doing it for years of course and nowdays people expect things to be available instantly. We are already doing weddings this way rather than brides waiting weeks, even months, before they get their video. It's a great feeling after a shoot to know that when you pack your gear into the car you are actually finished and can move to the next job straight away!!

"I currently buy 8GB USB's for $2.50 each"

Wow that is a good price on your USB drives Chris.
Just checked my emails and the last quote I got was $8.23 per 8gb thumb drive. This was printed with my branding on it. That was for 100.
The salesman did assure me if I bought 10,000 they would come down under $5 O_O

Can I get a link to your supplier?

When I do eisteddfods during the year Im still working on the instant delivery method.
Im close now, HDMI out of camera to Game Capture HD which is USB2 to Macbook, which writes those 720p files to an external HDD.
Its great if its not too busy, but when youre filming non stop its prob a two man operation to keep up.

Hi Gerald

I bought them form Office Works - Toshiba 8GB white but no branding.

Tell me how you are using the GameCapture box?? If you camera is say 10 metres from the computer you have already exceeded recommended cable length specs surely?? How do you use it if you want your cam and computer a decent distance apart??

Thanks Chris,
Going to Office Works this morning for other things so will hit them up about it while im there.

I have a 10m HDMI cable that I use, never had an issue with the signal etc.
If you wanted a long run, I had a setup at my old house when our boys were on TV a lot to record all their stuff.
My office was about 35m away from our Foxtel box, so I found a solution from Jaycar electronics where you split the HDMI to the TV, go into a HDMI to CAT6 powered converter, run CAT6 (up to 100m from memory) to my office, into other converter, then HDMI into Blackmagic Intensity card.
Presto- 1080i Prores 422 from TV.
It would be even less trouble without the Foxtels HDCP to worry about.
This looks different to my one, updated maybe-
https://www.jaycar.com.au/hdmi-over-1-x-cat5e-6-50m-with-ir-extender/p/AC1732

Thanks Gerald

Jaycar also have a neat 5.8GB transmitter/receiver unit but I think you need the transmitter to be powered which makes it a pain for a standalone remote camera! If one needs to run power to the camera/tripod one might as well run a HDMI cable instead. For a theatre style recording running camera cables shouldn't be any issue at all as they won't be moved and if you place cameras intelligently a 10 m run should be plenty.

I still think doing a live edit, even if you supply yje USB/DVD media later is a good way to go if you can handle it on your own.

Hi Chris,

For me the jury is still out on live mixing and editing. I did it live to computer and tape for many years and became pretty good at it with up to 4 cameras. The trouble is it is so easy to miss something that happens quickly, and when it's gone it''s gone for good. Things like choirs and music shows where the action is slow paced worked really well with the use of different camera angles to make it all more interesting. I found that with theatre or school productions and weddings, that we were missing a lot of shots and ending up making the shots much wider and less varied to avoid missing bits. I completely agree about just packing up and going home afterwards, but as regards setting up, that is a much more lengthy process.

I can set up 3 or 4 cameras, tripods and a couple of audio recorders in a church in a few minutes, but setting up for a live stream, with cables, switcher, conversion boxes and wireless and wifi, I would consider a pain in the butt compared with the way we work at the moment. For weddings, I think it would mean selling a totally different style of recording compared with our current offerings with a much more limited coverage but with LIVE being the whole point, rather than a general record of their day.

Roger

Hi Roger

Just to set the record straight all the ceremony videos we do are "computerless" The camera has a Broadcaster on it fed with HDMI from the camera plus records to the card (the FZ2500) does that ..the Broadcaster streams out to the service direct with just a wifi hotspot usually in my top pocket or on a stand in the area ... So it's really a 1 camera shoot ..very basic and very simple I pick up the bride arriving using the cam handheld and then it goes onto a tripod on a dolly for the ceremony until the end and I can move it to change angle and view as I wish. There is no switcher and no second cam ...But it seems to work pretty much OK

I would only use the switcher and multiple cams at a fixed venue like receptions, seminars or even funerals.

Just wondering Chris,
I chased up those USB drives at Office Works, Toshiba 8gb for $2.50 each, filled up a trolley with all they had and was going to order more, got to check out, and told I could only buy 5 :(((( lol.
Rang the business hotline they gave me in store and they wont budge on the 5 limit.
Did you have this problem getting yours?
So frustrating, wanted to buy 1000 and never have to look for them again.

Weird

I bought 10 and they never said a word to me nor was there any notice on the bin restricting the quantity.

Hmmm maybe you need to go store to store and buy 10 at a time ..how many did you have in the trolley? You could always buy 5 , then send the wife and friends in all buying 5 at a time ??? 10 friends and 5 stores would net you 250 drives!!!

Just saw the website and they have added the limit of 5 now..bugger!! They do have the smaller 8GB Toshibas for $3.79 which is quite darn good (but $2.50 is better!!)

Got a number for the wholesaler :)
Got the paperwork to become a reseller and get an account with them.
Anybody want to buy some electronics gear.....

Let you know how it goes.

Sounds interesting I wonder how many you would have to buy as a distributor?? 1000 or 10000 to get the same price as Office Works got!!

yep, I know. Was thinking the same. But Officeworks wouldnt be selling for zero markup, so even if I pay 30% more than them they still may be around the $2.50 mark..... we will see. :)

Well done Gerald with regards to contacting the wholesaler.

I've given up on Officeworks of late as a heap of their products are not in store when you go to purchase. Most annoying and inconvenient, not to mention defeating the purpose of having a physical shop.

"You can order them on the Officeworks web site" the sales droid tells me. I then reply with "I can order them from anyone's web site and the prices are cheaper too." to which the sales droid says "Yes. Lots of people have told me that."

Bypassing Officeworks is a really good thing.

Andrew

Hey Gerald if the price is not right try Manufacturers & Suppliers Directory | Global Sources (http://www.globalsources.com) I used them to get my LCD video books and they enable you to contract manufacture plants direct ...Most seem to have a min order of 100 so it quite practical ... I got my 7" LCD units ready to roll for $30.00 each and the local guy sells them for $60 ....Just find what you want, fill in the enquiry and the factory will email you with details and prices

Thanks Andrew and Chris,
Yes Officeworks dont seem to promote motivated business people. Everyone I spoke to seemed to be reading from a manual and was more interested in what they cant do, rather than what they can....

Tried that site now Chris. See what they come back with. cheers :)

Hi Chris,

Weren't you using Flashbay at some point? They have always been very helpful and reasonable prices plus they will do custom printing etc. Maybe they are not as competitive as they used to be.

Roger

My quote from Flashbay-

"Your quote:
250 Wafer Drives USB(2.0)
2 GB, $6.20 AUD per unit ex. GST
4 GB, $6.35 AUD per unit ex. GST"

Nice helpful rep, but even he admitted they were a bit pricey ATM.

I know they are branded, which is great, but not at almost 3 x the cost.

Hi Roger

Not me at all ...I get mine where the price is great. If you look at 100 units you should be able to get direct from China for around US$1.50 or maybe less ....I would put in a couple of enquiries thru Global Sources Gerald and see who offers the best price ....However no sure if you want branded logos or not ..their minimum quantity might go up if you want a customised drive. Be careful of their shipping costs BTW ..they all seem to favour DHL express which is pricey so best to work on the biggest order you can afford otherwise the shipping spoils the price on a small quantity!!!

My quote from Flashbay-

"Your quote:
250 Wafer Drives USB(2.0)
2 GB, $6.20 AUD per unit ex. GST
4 GB, $6.35 AUD per unit ex. GST"

Nice helpful rep, but even he admitted they were a bit pricey ATM.

I know they are branded, which is great, but not at almost 3 x the cost.

Hi Gerald,

That does sound expensive even with branding! It's a couple of years since I contacted them and they were a lot more competitive then.

Roger