Good afternoon, all! This spring, I shot a video for a client couple. They were very happy with the DVD I produced and I even went so far as to provide them with a flash drive with all the raw source footage. The couple has now come up with a request to place all this same raw footage in "viewable" DVD format! They want to be able to play the footage on TV and browse around through it. The raw footage is well over 70GB of data and I would, frankly, just not use some of it as being totally unusable. Without having to create--literally--DOZENS of DVDs (never mind the time to create them!!), is there a workable suggestion? Frankly, this isn't something I'm looking forward to even attempting, but if anyone would have a solution, it would be someone here on DVINFO!

Thanks for your input!
~TW

You don't mention how many hours of footage this is, but can't you export the 70 GB to MPEG-2?
And then burn this to several DVDs?

Or put all the raw footage onto the timeline, then burn 3-hour(?) chunks to DVD with an auto-fit option?

Hi, Vince, and thanks for your thoughts! The time total for the footage is around 8 hours, including prep, ceremony and reception. I hadn't thought of MPEG-2, but it could work. It would still be around 10 DVDs (even with auto-fit running) and the couple isn't wanting to spend the money for the extra work. Lord knows I have plenty of other stuff already in the workflow.

Anyone else?

Thanks again!
Terry

Buy them a device that will play the raw files off the flash drive. There are a bunch of budget media players out there for just $20-30. Even better, tell them to buy one. Or you can spend all that time burning dvds.

A media player is a good idea, Nate, but they're wanting to play this stuff on a TV. Unless the media player has an HDMI-out, that wouldn't work.

~TW

Exactly my idea,Terry. Google HDMI media player and you'll find a plethora. What does it need to play? AVCHD or .mov files?

There's the answer. Buy them a cheap laptop with HDMI and a a cable.

Does your contract with them state that you will give them the raw footage? If not,then you are under no obligation to do anything with it without charging them for the time involved. If it was just a courtesy giving them the raw footage then the onus is on them to find a way of playing it. This situation is exactly why I never give out raw footage to clients.

If you have a decorator in to paint a room in your house and and he leaves you any unused paint as a courtesy, would you then expect him to come back and use the rest of the unused paint on other rooms free of charge?

Roger

If a wedding couple ask me for raw footage I will give it to them BUT it's exactly what it says, camera files off the card and nothing else. It sounds like to me that the client wants a new edit on DVD (or usb) of everything you shot which already involves doing syncs from multiple cameras and not a simple "top and tail" and convert to a watchable format

I did have a couple who asked for raw footage then complained bitterly that the video was "in lots of short pieces" and she couldn't watch it. Sorry but raw footage is raw footage...if you want to watch it you will need to at least compile it into one long sequence ..Mr Client. If you want me to do it then it will cost you BIG for a second edit (and I'll still cut out the wobbly bits) so it's watchable.

Dozens of dvd's for only 8 hours of footage? Eventhough I have not done this I believe tmpgenc can fit at least 5 hours of footage onto one dvd, at a low bitrate ofcourse. Even if you put 2 hours of footage on a dvd it should be at a reasonable quality and you would need 4 dvd's max.

the couple isn't wanting to spend the money for the extra work

Seriously? And you are ok with that? You already gave them the raw footage for free and now they expect you to put it for free on a few dvd's? I would make a quote for all the extra time it would require to do that, unless you are a charity organisation? :)

Good afternoon, all! This spring, I shot a video for a client couple. They were very happy with the DVD I produced and I even went so far as to provide them with a flash drive with all the raw source footage. The couple has now come up with a request to place all this same raw footage in "viewable" DVD format! They want to be able to play the footage on TV and browse around through it. The raw footage is well over 70GB of data and I would, frankly, just not use some of it as being totally unusable. Without having to create--literally--DOZENS of DVDs (never mind the time to create them!!), is there a workable suggestion? Frankly, this isn't something I'm looking forward to even attempting, but if anyone would have a solution, it would be someone here on DVINFO!

Thanks for your input!
~TW

Hey Terry,

If the couple has a laptop with HDMI out, they can probably play the files with the program VLC. Just copy the files to an external hard drive to get around problems of FAT32. Or you can use a large capacity thumb drive, but format it to something other like EXFAT or NTFS.

Really, VLC has played everything I've thrown at it so far. Of course, it might not play certain codecs. Haven't tried ProRes or DNxHD etc.

Don't waste a lot of time transcoding all those files, unless you charge extra for your time. The busier you are the less you can afford to waste your time.

And the couple should provide the drive, or pay you for one you provide.

Thanks everyone for the robust feedback! For all the expressed reasons about giving a couple raw footage, it amazes me what people expect to see--even when you TELL THEM!! The flash drive I gave them was indeed formatted NTFS, so that's good. And yes, it is freakin' nuts that there would be an expectation that all this work would be done for free, and that's not gonna happen! I took another look at my signed agreement and there's nothing that would suggest this kind of service would be available or provided, as part of the deal.

So thanks to all who offered their thoughts. I think the "laptop with HDMI out" is the best solution they're going to get, and I believe they already have one of those. They'll just have to get used to browsing clip by clip. And VLC will do the job quite nicely!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Terry

The easiest would be to buy them a modern bluray player that has a usb port for playing videos. I got a Sony last year and it's great save it as mp4 on a memory stick and you are done.

Option two burn it to dual layer dvd. You can fit 4hrs on each dvd (2hrs each layer) for a total of 2 dvds. But honestly you should be able to make a rough cut that's 2-4hrs that will fit on 1 dual layer dvd.

In the future you should offer an add on to clients for x amount of dollars you will give them a rough cut that is 2 hrs long. The rough cut is a lot of work so charge for it up front.

I would never give a raw footage without editing it. Shows all your mistakes and you could have inadvertently recorded sometime unflattering or a person saying something that wasn't intended for the bride's ears.

The easiest would be to buy them a modern bluray player

Maybe get them a tv as well just to be sure? :)

I would never give the client a blu-ray player because you are just opening the can of worms even further, what if the player malfunctions, then you have to solve it during the warranty period. Then someone they know gets married and books you, guess who will be expecting a free blu-ray player?
It's not our responsibility to give our clients the necessary hardware to playback our films.

Sony BDP‑S3500 Blu‑ray Player is $80 that's how much I charge an hour. If I don't need to spend anytime editing or producing dvds it has paid for itself. In addition you can test that the video codec you're using will work 100% guaranteed. They also will be viewing it HD.

You"ll be loosing 80 dollar because you'd be giving away a br player for free, I otoh would make them a quote for making the necessary dvd's they requested so they either pay for my time or they don't, in that way I don't loose any money and the client has the choice of getting what they asked for or not.

Isn't this the point you should do the old builder's trick of a noisy intake of breath and say "That's going to take a lot of work, it'll be expensive"?

The problem is that the client doesn't realize what work is involved and probably thinks putting all the raw files on dvd is just a matter of copy/paste like on a usb stick, you could question why to give raw footage in the first place but that is not the issue here, it's a client expecting a service that is not agreed upon and expecting it free of charge. That's why I don't understand why some think it's a good idea to trow in a free blu-ray player, mediaplayer or even cheap laptop.

Who said I'd give them a free player? Part of your job is to educate and inform the client. They most likely want it on a dvd because that's all they know.

You can pay me $400 to encode and produce 8 hrs dvds or for $80 I'll purchase and ship to your doorstep a player you can connect to your tv watch the video I gave you on the memory stick.

You said you would buy them a br player but you didn't say you would invoice them for it and apparently I assumed wrong that you would give it for free, in such a case you can better tell the client what br player they have to buy to solve their problem, I just don't see any reason why we should buy it for them, especially not because we will then be responsible to solve warranty issues or any other problem they might experience with the player.

This seems like a really good time to not "tell" them anything but instead, put it in writing.

"If it isn't written, it isn't said."

Give them a few options with the associated cost then see what they want to go with.

"If you have any questions please let me know.

Sincerely,

Your dear videographer"
[or what ever]

Any answers to the questions, verbal or written, follow up in writing.

John, that's what it has come to. I sent a long, sensitive and tactfully worded note explaining what we agreed to in my contract That's what they signed for and they received--AND I provided the raw footage as a courtesy--that I usually charge an additional fee for. I went on to explain that any further services would be charged $80 per hour (same as Pete) plus the cost of media storage.

Thanks again, everyone!
~TW

If you have a decorator in to paint a room in your house and and he leaves you any unused paint as a courtesy, would you then expect him to come back and use the rest of the unused paint on other rooms free of charge?

Roger

Roger, I like this one! I already sent the couple a letter, but if I need any follow up, I'm usin' it!

~TW

Roger, I like this one! I already sent the couple a letter, but if I need any follow up, I'm usin' it!

~TW

I'll waive the copyright fee then ;-)

My Wife always says " Oh no not another analogy!"

Roger

Oddly this crossed my mind recently as a bride I had this fall really requested having he raw footage. I did explain to her that Raw footage is just about 300+ random clips of varying lengths, and not to pretty to watch, including some focusing, white balancing, zooms etc. Still, she insisted. I ended up buying an external hard drive & sent it off along with the DVD & USB of the highlights that I send.

$50, but it crossed my mind "What if she asks for it on DVD?!". I was just prepared to say no, I can't. Hopefully buying a nice HD got that out of her mind.

Another thought tho was when I was editing I did some shooting during cocktail hour. Who knows what can be overheard in the conversations people might be having (talking about work, joking about people they know, the couple themselves etc). I felt it's a bit invasive or breach of trust to give away overheard conversations to the bride & groom, and I didn't really feel good about doing that.

OT, in Premiere or your editing software can you drag over like 30 or 50 clips at a time? I never tried this, but I wonder if it sequences them all into a timeline in start to finish order. Still alot of work, just time consuming, plus burning menus unless your software can burn DVD only (no menu). Adobe can't:(

It's just too much of a slippery slope with Raw footage tbh. Customers can have verying expectations on what they're getting clips, HD, DVD, then, you create their DVD and you hear back "It's not set to any music!!".

What happens when the bride gives the raw footage to her cousin, who then produces a new edited wedding video, with credits that say, "Produced by Bride's Cousin." Are you giving away the rights to use the raw video however they want? Or, if you feel you still own the rights to it, how are you going to enforce those rights?

What if some of the raw footage includes music to which you did not obtain sync rights? Bride's Cousin includes that footage & music in his release. The local band (or whoever) sues Cousin, and he says, "Not my problem, I got this footage from Terry Wall. Sue him."

Can you say "Slippery slope"?

Before you buy anything, find out what kind of TV they have. Their TV might be able to play the media you have already provided them all by itself and they probably don't even know it.

I have what's probably a 10-year-old Toshiba HDTV that can play media from a thumb drive plugged into a USB port on the side.

With a client I specify exactly what the work product will consist of an that includes the format and extent of the recording. That is what I deliver. Anything else is custom work and I feel no obligation to take on the work as it is not my problem.

You do have the option of sending them to a dubbing company that is setup to make DVD's in quantity. That is what I do as they have the duplicating machines that make the labor negligible. Have the client search for DVD services and they can send the video on a flash drive to the company.

Up front I educate clients than less is more and my job in part is to edit the content to get to what they will want to see. Doing a RAW dump is not something I would do for a variety of reasons.

What happens when the bride gives the raw footage to her cousin, who then produces a new edited wedding video, with credits that say, "Produced by Bride's Cousin." Are you giving away the rights to use the raw video however they want? Or, if you feel you still own the rights to it, how are you going to enforce those rights?

What if some of the raw footage includes music to which you did not obtain sync rights? Bride's Cousin includes that footage & music in his release. The local band (or whoever) sues Cousin, and he says, "Not my problem, I got this footage from Terry Wall. Sue him."

Can you say "Slippery slope"?
This fear in particular fascinates me. The odds of any of these things happening, and (outside of the lawsuit, which we'll deal with in a minute) even if they happened... I can't see where there are any damages. So the raw footage falls into the hands of (anyone), and they re-edit it. I mean, you already shot and edited and were paid for the wedding video. Do you really think they were going to commission you for a lucrative 2nd edit? To that end, why would anyone with a wedding video even want a 2nd edit? How many versions of your wedding could you possibly watch? Most people don't even watch the first one until 10 or 20 years in!

Now... let me get this lawsuit straight. You shoot some video. You produce an edit with music you've secured the rights to. You give the raw video to the client, you're paid, and you move on with your life. Meanwhile, a family member to the couple re-edits the footage and uses some copyrighted music ... help me understand how the already difficult-to-believe re-edit resuilts in a lawsuit against you? Furthermore (this is an immediate answer to "anybody can sue anyone for anything"), can you cite a single case in all of history where this has actually happened?

I've been shooting weddings for 32 years and have never given anyone the raw footage and never been asked to re-edit a wedding with the exception of the odd person asking if I can take somebody out. I've occasionally been asked if there is any extra footage but always say it is unusable for a number of reasons.

If I did give raw footage, I would consider that it was the couple's wedding, not mine that I had filmed, edited a final version and completed my contract with them and been paid for. If I then gave them the raw footage, it would be for footage of an event that they had paid for and technically owned the copyright to. Providing I had completed my contract with them and been paid, I can't see that it would be of any interest to me what they did with any raw footage unless someone attached my name to it without my permission.

In practice, I don't even archive their raw footage, just keeping it for two weeks for any corrections, although I know many here worry about how best to store footage. I simply keep an exact copy of what the client has as a final product and if they wanted anything else stored, they would have to pay for it. The exception would be for commercial clients that wanted me to edit different versions or add more footage to later, under an agreed arrangement.

Roger

I like to work subtractively, gradually removing the worst footage. At the beginning thats when you can offer customers packages that include movies of various lengths: Highlight 5-8 min, Medium 10-15, Long 20-60 and a movie of the entire ceremony.

If its filmed in a documentary style there might be great little interviews with guests or b roll that didn't make the cut that would work in a longer movie. I think if you only offer a very short slick music video that only has tiny snippets of the day that's where you get a client wanting the raw.

If you don't set expectations and educate the client you end up with these difficult situations. There are options in between a tightly edited final movie and raw footage.

Ask if they have a smart tv/roku/appletv/etc... if yes, just upload the footage to youtube and give them a private link. you still need to dump all the clips onto a timeline and render, and i would still charge for that since it's still time.

I would still not give raw footage for a pretty understandable reason: if you caught anything on camera that's offensive or defamatory, etc... etc.. such as a guest going off on a racist rant or something, and they publish it, then it could come back to bite you. Now granted, it's pretty unlikely that such a thing will happen, but i still wouldn't want to give out raw footage and that's the reason i would give the couple, regardless of their promise to not do such a thing etc... etc.., just say it's a legal liability and if they really want raw footage they have to pay for you to review it in full to ensure no such material exists.

Ask if they have a smart tv/roku/appletv/etc... if yes, just upload the footage to youtube and give them a private link. you still need to dump all the clips onto a timeline and render, and i would still charge for that since it's still time.

I would still not give raw footage for a pretty understandable reason: if you caught anything on camera that's offensive or defamatory, etc... etc.. such as a guest going off on a racist rant or something, and they publish it, then it could come back to bite you. Now granted, it's pretty unlikely that such a thing will happen, but i still wouldn't want to give out raw footage and that's the reason i would give the couple, regardless of their promise to not do such a thing etc... etc.., just say it's a legal liability and if they really want raw footage they have to pay for you to review it in full to ensure no such material exists.

I really think you are worrying unecessarily as there is a big difference between filming and publishing. If you give raw footage to a client and give them copyright to it, then they are responsible for any publishing that subsequently takes place. You are not creating any offence in filming something, that can only happen in its published form.

Roger

I do veteran oral history interviews. In the past six months I have started delivering the full, unedited copy to the veteran via USB thumb drive formated to NTSC and the video exported as an MP4 file. You can plug it into a LED television USB port and play directly on the television using the TV remote control.
I have delivered 3.5 hour, 2.5 hour and 1.5 hour interviews to the families of the three veterans. Depending on you compression settings, the exported file sizes will determine the size of USB thumb drive to deliver it on. I have purchased two 128 GB Sandisk USB thumb drive for $25 each in the past six months.
As these interviews are for their families, I include files of photos and articles related to the stories told during the interview.
In two of the three cases, I did follow up audio interviews and included the mp3 files.
The last one I finished up this week included scanning photos from an album and then adding an audio track to each photo image as a narration and combining them into a video.
USS ENTERPRISE CVAN/CVN-65 on Vimeo

I really think you are worrying unecessarily as there is a big difference between filming and publishing. If you give raw footage to a client and give them copyright to it, then they are responsible for any publishing that subsequently takes place. You are not creating any offence in filming something, that can only happen in its published form.

Roger

like i mentioned, it's all unlikely. The primary thing that most folks seem to not be aware of, is that you can get sued for any reason, reasonable or not, there's nothing stopping anyone suing you for anything they want(in the US, i don't know about UK).

So regardless of who is the responsible party, if you created it, and you handed it over, it leaves the possibility, however remote, that it could come bit you.

Everyone decides how much risk they are willing to burden.

Well theoretically I suppose you could sneeze in the street and get sued by someone who considered you were risking their health by spreading germs and you could counter sue them for causing you unnecessary stress and worry. Of course if you go through life worrying about everything that might be remotely possible you would never get out of bed, but then I suppose equally, you might just roll over and suffocate in your sleep. ;-)

Roger