I have been using an AX100 AX33 and RX10 II for the last year or so. My wife and I shoot Weddings, both stills and video.

The AX100 has been the main Camera with the RX10 II used for close ups etc. The AX33 I dislike intently and has hardly been touched. I am not totally happy with the RX10 either I just haven't gelled with it.

So I am looking to sell the RX10 and AX33 and replace with something different. My considerations are.

1. Another AX100, but two factors concern me, it's fortay is not low light and with some winter weddings coming up I have some concerns about low light performance. Secondly the price in the UK is £1500 which
I feel is overpriced. We do really like this Camera though.

2. A GH4R with the 12/35 will cost about the same, will this offer better low light performance? maybe a little but of course the option of fast primes is an option.

Is there anything else I am missing, any other options apart from these two Cameras that should be considered?

Any advice most welcome

There's little point in getting the GH4r unless you're dedicated to going down the route of multiple lenses. The strength of this camera is adding various primes for a whole lot better low light. I love my 12-35 lens, but I know when to put it away and it gets used less in the winter. I recently got the 12mm 1.4 Panasonic lens and already it's been put to great use in some dimly lit Ceremonies and Receptions. Expensive lens though.

If you're not willing to go down that route, then the newly announced FZ2000 has a lot to offer. May match less well with your Sony, but I can't say for sure as I don't own any Sony cameras. It is a hybrid camera much like the RX10; not sure what your issues with that camera are, but could be the same with the FZ2000, depending what they are. You do lose the constant aperture though, which will affect low light when zooming in.

There's always the a6300; I've heard good and bad things about that camera. Seems a good camera for low light, though reliability is its chief issue.

Thanks Steve

I have no issue investing in primes, I understand it will give me better low light abilities when required.

We love the AX100 and it's ease of use, but have found it lacking for lower light work, our noise threshold is approx 12DB gain and it's easy to hit this at some venues, we do add light if required though.

The RX10 we have really struggled to get accurate focus and the quality does not seem on par with the AX100, some Cameras you just don't gel with and that is one of them.

The Micro four thirds route is appealing with so many lenses and choice between Olympus and Panny.

A couple thoughts, the AX53 is noticeably better than the AX33, but still not quite as good image quality, IMO. It does OK in low light, but with a bit of noise, from the testing I did (returned, leaning towards the RX10M3). You certainly would dislike it less than the 33, but that may or may not be enough!?

How are you using the RX10M2 - if its handheld, that may be part of the issue? I would at the minimum want to have a flash bracket to help with stability, I usually use a footed monopod, just because the form factor doesn't lend itself to handheld use (similar to most DSLR type cams, IMO). I actually grab the RX10M2 over the AX100, and the image quality to my eye looks to be equal or better (I believe the sensor in the M2 & M3 is a bit better in low light, and equally sharp). On my 4K screens I'd be hard pressed to say which camera was which (says a lot about the AX100 for it's age!).

Haven't noticed any problems with focus - are you trying manual focus or auto? If manual, have you tried using peaking? It's really hard to gauge accurate focus for a 4K image on a 3" screen.... are you finding the problems in "post", but it looked OK while shooting? If there is a specific scenario where you're having trouble getting/holding focus, there are several "modes" for focus that might be worth experimenting with? Auto focus is always problematic, and one place where a touch screen would be a good addition to the RX's...

Not sure if used AX100's pop up in the EU, and whether the prices are that much lower to justify it, but it IS a very nice camera - while the RX10M2 takes a little getting used to, it's capable of good results, from what I've seen the M3 version knocks off a couple of the "rough edges", at the price of increased size and weight. I've been contemplating whether going to the M3 would be an "upgrade" to justify retiring the AX100, but much like yourself, I feel it's a very "comfortable" camera for video. The RX's of course are more oriented toward stills, and take some getting used to for video... and the hack to bypass the 30 minute limit!

Thanks for your input Dave

The RX10 M2 is normally on a Monopod, for focus I have it set to BBF. However it is very difficult to see if you have acquired focus on the small screen as you say. I haven't tried peaking and manual focus.

My threshold for noise is quite high so I do not think the smaller sensor AX53 will work for me which is why I am considering the GH4R with it's choice of lenses.

The AX100 did drop in price from £1500 to £1350 for a while but it seems the sensor shortage has put them back up. They are a great Camera but I can get a GH4R (no 30 min limit) with 12/35 2.8 for the same money which gives me a little more noise performance with the option of lower light lenses, maybe with a small loss of usability. I do feel the AX100 are overpriced here.

I got my AX100 for just over £1,100

https://slrhut.co.uk/product/ID571C7/google?gclid=CjwKEAjw652_BRDfkebVrdOGkDISJAD0Q2Ru2FqhYjOVJfqFMnDharycemfKHwbauQdq3TV3daUBkRoCXq_w_wc B

I recently picked up a used Sony A7S ( first version) with a CZ 24-70 F4 zoom all for $2200 USD.
No low light level problems with this baby. With 24,000 iso setting being my low light dim venue choice.
It doesn't do 4K but if I really need 4K, then the A7S II is the puppy.

I got my AX100 for just over £1,100

https://slrhut.co.uk/product/ID571C7/google?gclid=CjwKEAjw652_BRDfkebVrdOGkDISJAD0Q2Ru2FqhYjOVJfqFMnDharycemfKHwbauQdq3TV3daUBkRoCXq_w_wc B

Thanks Peter, I have seen SLR hut but was not sure how reputable they were, that price is certainly competitive.

No matter how good the AX100 is, alas low light will never compete with say a GH4r with a prime lens. If quality is your goal when it comes to managing some of the low light situations venues can thrown at us, then nothing beats this combination. Its really down to ease of use vs quality. Getting the best quality requires more money, effort and stress on the day, but the results will speak for themselves. Taking the easy approach with a camcorder or hybrid camera does make your filming day less stressful, but you'll never capture great low light footage the same way as a prime lens set to 1.4 or 1.8. Same thing with photos too. I've seen the difference, matching footage shot on 2.8 aperture to that shot on 1.4 and it really is night and day. Its a whole new level.

I recently picked up a used Sony A7S ( first version) with a CZ 24-70 F4 zoom all for $2200 USD.
No low light level problems with this baby. With 24,000 iso setting being my low light dim venue choice.
It doesn't do 4K but if I really need 4K, then the A7S II is the puppy.

Another option thanks Arthur

Thanks Peter, I have seen SLR hut but was not sure how reputable they were, that price is certainly competitive.

I also bought an A7s II from them that developed a fault and they sorted it quickly. I also bought a pretty expensive G-Master lens - I can't fault them

Pete

That's good to know they are very competitive, is it grey import?

Pretty sure they are grey imports

Just get two canon 80d and 2.8 lens your good to go by far the best cameras around

I have not even considered these Steve, what are the strengths of them

Phil, dslr look great, bokeh great look, kills any camcorder and better in low light than any camcorder. Loads lenses available but my go to are canon 17-55 2.8 and tamron 24-70 2.8, great dual autofocus touch screen as well, track the bride and groom anywhere and it locks on mate. great colours in camera with many downloadable styles. Got rid of everything and got four they are super.
All shot on canon 80d below apart from drone shots. steve

Kathie + Ross // Leverhulme Hotel Wedding Venue on Vimeo

But not 4K and whilst I love Canon's auto focus, the 80d image just seems soft when compared to cameras offering 4K even at HD resolution. I initially went down the Canon route and regretted it later; thankfully before I invested in too much glass. Like most Canon gear it trades its great auto focus, colour science and reliability in the field with a lack of features, some considered essential for a Professional video tool.

track the bride and groom anywhere and it locks on mate.

If the dual autofocus is so effective then why are the shots at 01:09, 01:13 and 01:30 out of focus?

Yeah I picked up on that too. The above video whilst very well shot and edited, shows all that is good and bad about Canon's cameras. Close up shots of people look gorgeous but the wide shots suffer from a lack of detail and look nowhere near as cinematic. There's a shot at 2.58 where they're on the bridge that looks terrible; and I can't seem to see if its because of focus issues or just the cameras inability to handle such detail. Maybe the codec is weak. It's disappointing to see that the 80d suffers from much the same lack of detail that my 60d had despite being a 2 generation upgrade. It's why I had to get rid of the 60d once I had the GH2 and GH3 as it compared badly when placed next to these cameras.

Pretty sure they are grey imports
I'm pretty sure that they are not grey imports but in effect they are smugglers as they evade paying duty & VAT just like all these other sites like Digitalrev that pretend to be UK based. The only genuine grey importer that I know of in the UK is HDEW CAMERAS About Us (http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/about-us-1-w.asp)

Moving from shooting with a1" sensor & long motor zoom & no lens changes to DSLR is a big step. I don't do weddings any more but previously shot both with Canon DSLR & M4/3 & if I were to shoot weddings again I would use a AX100 & a couple of RX10M2/M3s. The cameras I now own are a Sony RX10M2 & a Panasonic FZ1000 which are great & I would be very confident about shooting a wedding with similar 1" sensor cameras. The light weight compact size & absence of lens changing makes for enormously easier use. Work within their limitations & add light if absolutely necessary.

Spot on,Nigel.
You're absolutely right...

I would use a AX100 & a couple of RX10M2/M3s.

Phil has the rx10II and he wants to get rid of it because he has focusing issues with it so that's not an option, I"m also sure that the fz1000/2000 would give him the same problems, not sure if you have seen the short review from the camerastore tv guys as they did shot their last episode with the fz2000 when they where at Photokina in Germany, there where a few out of focus shots in darker parts and that was because the peaking reacted to the noise the camera generated giving Jordan a false reading resulting into a out of focus shot, he also claimed the lens ramped very fast making it not a good low light performer.

I find the follow focus on the FZ1000 very good in reasonable light, but I have found that using the direct focus mode allows you to set up a focus area on the screen so that the camera remains focused on that area and you can choose to move the area while filming using the select dial. It's very useful if you want to keep the main subject the same, but shift focus to a background object or any other area of the screen. You can of course also maintain focus by holding the focus lock button in, or setting it to continuously hold focus.

Roger

I think if you're looking for convenience and ease of use when filming, then a bridge camera like the FZ1000/FZ2000 or adding another AX100 is the best option.

If however you're looking to raise the quality of the image that you get, especially in low light, whilst keeping your gear small, then something like the new G80 would work very well. Especially as the G80 has excellent IS with any lens and is cheaper than the GH4. The extra money could be used to buy not only the 12-35mm lens, but also a prime lens like the 25mm 1.7 and perhaps the 42.5 1.7, both of which would give you more options in low light. The G80 is also weather proof when paired with the 12-35mm lens, which in this country has some definite advantages. I'm thinking of selling my GH4 and some other gear and adding the G80 to my gear.

Thanks for all the input here.

I have decided to go with a GH4R andG80. With this I will get the Olympus 12mm and Panny 42.5 F1.7
We are keeping the AX100, but with winter weddings coming up I will feel more comfortable in low light with the Panasonics.

Good choice, the GH and G line are not as easy to shoot with compared to a ax100 and the fz1000/2000 but the bit extra effort it takes is worth the result. From what I have read the g80 is basically a gx80 but adds the much needed extras like mike input or a swivel lcd screen. If it performs the same you will also notice the g80 crushes the blacks more then the GH4, at it's highest iso it looks cleaner then the GH4 but my guess it it achieves this by crushing the blacks so you will loose detail quicker in shadows on high contrast scenes. Color also seems more accurate on the GX80 and most likely also on the G80, especially in skintones I do see a difference between the gh4 and my gx80 where I find the gx80 to have more pleasing colors.

I very likely will buy the g80 as soon as it comes out and probably also will get rid of my gh3 and 4 if it performs as expected, might even get myself a second G80. It basically is a GH4 minus the better codecs but the IBIS is too good to just ignore.

Thanks Noa

What Lenses are you using with the Panasonic's, I seem to recall the Oly 12mm and 42.5 F1.7, is there any others you put to good use?

Don't want to brag but since you ask :) I have a quite extensive m4/3 lens collection
Panasonic:
12mm f2.0
14mm f2.5
15mm f1.7
25mm f1.4
42,5mm f1.7
12-35mm f2.8
14-140mm f3.5-5.6

Olympus:
9-18mm f4-5.6
75mm f1.8
40-150mm f2.8

Bresser
60mm f2.8 macro

I only use 4 of these lenses at my weddings though, I have my 12-35mm f2.8 on the gh4 and 42,5mm f1.7 on my gx80 for handheld shots from brideprep up to reception, for ceremony I use a ax100 and a jvc ls300 with the 40-150mm on tripods and walk around with my gh4/12-35 and gx80/75mm for handheld b-roll, from reception I use a 75mm f1.8 on my gx80 for handheld headshots, gh4 with a 12mm on a gimbal and jvc ls300 with the 40-150 for speeches if there is enough light, otherwise it's the 75mm f1.8 on the jvc and the 42,5mm on the gx80. Sounds complicated but it isn't, just routine :)

Also, if you want to see how a gh4/gx80 combo looks like on weddings I posted my last trailer here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-video-members-only/532777-last-wedding-season.html

I shoot a lot of my wedding footage on my B-Cam FZ1000 and have yet to find an out of focus shot .. focus is fast and remarkably accurate even on long aisle walk downs. On my previous Sony's I often had focus issues when running in full auto especially when going around tables and doing guest comments and resulted in going fully manual which really was a pain. Having a huge selection of lenses was quite cool but I did get tired of having to clean sensors every time I shot. A fixed lens camera does make life a lot easier for run 'n gun shoots!! Sometimes taking the easy way out makes weddings a lot less stressful and really, brides couldn't care less what camera you use and if I can find one that makes my job simpler then I'll go for it!!

Having a huge selection of lenses was quite cool but I did get tired of having to clean sensors every time I shot. A fixed lens camera does make life a lot easier for run 'n gun shoots!! Sometimes taking the easy way out makes weddings a lot less stressful and really, brides couldn't care less what camera you use and if I can find one that makes my job simpler then I'll go for it!!

A well made point Chris, but not all of us beg a simpler life when it comes at the cost of the quality of footage we can get. Bride's don't care about our gear, but they pay us to care. I wouldn't be happy shooting a Wedding on a fixed lens camera. I would find the restrictions too annoying. Changing lens doesn't have to be stressful if used properly. I have a zoom lens for run n gun work, and a multitude of primes for moments of the day where I can afford to be more creative.

Currently I'm using the 12mm slr magic lens after a long period of minimum use; it feels like using a completely new camera when you attach such a different looking lens. Besides, its great investment too; lenses I purchased years back are still being used even though camera bodies I purchased them with have since been retired.

My latest is the Panasonic 12mm 1.4 and already it has worked extremely well for some recent Weddings. Having those extra stops to fall back on actually makes my job less stressful than if I was to struggle on with 2.8 in some of the venues I have shot in.

I shoot a lot of my wedding footage on my B-Cam FZ1000 and have yet to find an out of focus shot

Fixed lens camera's work well in combination with autofocus in good light and when shooting wide or when zoomed in with your subject dead center in the frame but once you zoom in with 2 people in the frame the focus can shift to the background or when the lights go down and you have to zoom in the focus can start to hunt, in such a case you need to rely on a manual focus and like Phil said he has a hard time nailing focus on his rx10II, the fz2000 seems to have the same issue like the camerastoretv guys reported with missed focus in low light situations because the peaking was reading noise as detail.

If you never have experienced a out of focus shot with autofocus enabled only means you shoot in well lit venues, shoot mainly wide and often close and if it gets dark use a bright videolight. Am I right?

I shoot a lot of my wedding footage on my B-Cam FZ1000 and have yet to find an out of focus shot .. focus is fast and remarkably accurate even on long aisle walk downs. On my previous Sony's I often had focus issues when running in full auto especially when going around tables and doing guest comments and resulted in going fully manual which really was a pain. Having a huge selection of lenses was quite cool but I did get tired of having to clean sensors every time I shot. A fixed lens camera does make life a lot easier for run 'n gun shoots!! Sometimes taking the easy way out makes weddings a lot less stressful and really, brides couldn't care less what camera you use and if I can find one that makes my job simpler then I'll go for it!!

Gday Chris!
What focus points are you using for tracking shots?
I usually use a small single point set to the Brides side of the frame, at face height, with varying success rates.
Maybe I should set it to the Dads side!!!!??? More contrast for the camera to pick up!!!!????
Some Brides faces seem to be hard for the camera to register! Maybe I just get a lot of blondes.
Never had an issue when using Canon 70Ds, seems more hit and miss with the FZ1000s....

Jack

Don't want to brag but since you ask :) I have a quite extensive m4/3 lens collection
Panasonic:
12mm f2.0
14mm f2.5
15mm f1.7
25mm f1.4
42,5mm f1.7
12-35mm f2.8
14-140mm f3.5-5.6

Olympus:
9-18mm f4-5.6
75mm f1.8
40-150mm f2.8

Bresser
60mm f2.8 macro

I only use 4 of these lenses at my weddings though, I have my 12-35mm f2.8 on the gh4 and 42,5mm f1.7 on my gx80 for handheld shots from brideprep up to reception, for ceremony I use a ax100 and a jvc ls300 with the 40-150mm on tripods and walk around with my gh4/12-35 and gx80/75mm for handheld b-roll, from reception I use a 75mm f1.8 on my gx80 for handheld headshots, gh4 with a 12mm on a gimbal and jvc ls300 with the 40-150 for speeches if there is enough light, otherwise it's the 75mm f1.8 on the jvc and the 42,5mm on the gx80. Sounds complicated but it isn't, just routine :)

Thanks Noa, is the GH4 at 2.8 best low light than the AX100?

I had some time available so did a test for you:

Below some jpeg frames exported from a 1080p timeline, all footage was shot in 4k so the result you see is already downscaled which makes the noise smaller and a bit less visible.
I only used a very small dimmed light on the left side of the frame, I used a 15mm f1.7 lens so you could see the difference between f2.8 and f1.7, I shot with the gh4 and gx80 both at 6400 iso.
The ax100 was the lens wide open and at 30db.
The framing is a bit different because you need a 12mm lens to get a similar field of view on teh ax100 in 4k, in 1080p it's wider because the panasonics crop in 4K.

Noa

Thanks for that, GX80 at 6400 very impressive, my G80 is on pre-order looking forward to using that with the same IBIS as the GX80 and better form factor for me

Thanks again

Hi Phil,

I've got my G80 on order now and should arrive tomorrow. Should compliment my 2 GH4r's and GX80 perfectly. I love my GX80 but the audio issues are a very sore point as I come to rely on that little camera a lot for filming. It does have perfect colours compared to my GH4Rs and the IS is brilliant. By all accounts the G80 has all that the GX80 offers but adds essential audio input and a better screen - my GH4Rs are consigned to B cameras - never saw that coming at the start of the year.

Hi Steve

I will end up with a GH4R, GX80, G80 and the AX100, that lot will suffice for now, I really like the Panasonics, I will be looking to add a few more lenses in time but after using the GH4R and GX80 last weekend for the first time in anger I am liking what they off in usability and quality.

Let me know how you find the G80

I've got my G80 on order now and should arrive tomorrow.

That soon? Did you get the free batterygrip offer from Panasonic as well? I am trying to order from the UK because it's 150euro cheaper + a 350euro batterygrip thats free which is not offered in Belgium so that's a 500euro discount, only I am not able to find a store that delivers to Belgium.

That soon? Did you get the free batterygrip offer from Panasonic as well? I am trying to order from the UK because it's 150euro cheaper + a 350euro batterygrip thats free which is not offered in Belgium so that's a 500euro discount, only I am not able to find a store that delivers to Belgium.

Yes I ordered today from WEX and they offer a next day delivery. I got a Wedding at St Pauls Saturday and it would come in very handy given some of the restrictions. For the battery grip, from what I understand it works like the cash back policy. You have to confirm the purchase with Panasonic and they send you the battery grip rather than cash. Here's the link to make the claim.

Panasonic Promotions (http://promotions.panasonic.co.uk/promotions/promotions/view_terms/163)

Another reason I jumped the gun and did it this month as the purchase period ends 31st October. The battery grip would be very handy.

Not sure what Panasonics view on ordering from the UK to deliver to Beligium re the promotion.

Well finally my g80 arrived a week ago, luckily I still can get the free batterygrip because I placed the order October last year and which should arrive in a week or 2.
I took the g80 with me on a short holiday last weekend to put it through it's paces and I have found a few annoying things, mainly in terms of ergonomics.

The record button which is tiny is placed on top but it's completely flush with the camera body, I just can't feel the button if I want to push it without looking at it, instead I have been using the shutterbutton to start/stop recording.
The buttons on the back to activate whitebalance, iso are very difficult to differentiate by the touch, I again cannot blindly press on the right button because they don't extend enough, same for the "set" button in the center, they all feel the same, I often pressed the wrong button and had to take my eye from the viewfinder each time to make sure I was pressing the right one.
Pressing the shutterbutton halfway to refocus often resulted in me stopping recording, that button requires a very gentle push and again it's difficult to determine when you have pressed it far enough halfway. This one worries me the most.
The peaking is near useless, often it's very hard to see or not visible at all, even with peaking set at high.
The ibis makes a grinding sound which you clearly can hear in your recording, a external mike is necessary but at least it's possible to plug one in.

It still is a great camera though, despite it's annoying ergonomics, it adds some important features the gx80 was missing, it also gives a cleaner image and retains color better then the gh4 at high iso and for the ibis alone and better formfactor compared to the gx80 it is worth the purchase.

My initial G80 suffered from a bug which made IS very temperamental when panning. Thankfully a recent update fixed it and it only seemed to be an issue on the early models. Alas I feel my G80 will get used less and less once the GH5 arrives. I currently use the G80 and GX80 for the majority of my filming, with a different lens on each. 1 stays in a side bag and I can quickly swap between the 2. However the small form factor plus other preferences means the GX80 will be the better choice to sit alongside my GH5. Its such a tiny and light camera to use and a real favourite of mine. Even though the IS is slightly more improved on the G80 compared to the GX80, its such a fun camera to use to grab those quick shots.

As for the G80 shutter button issue, I see the GH5 has a focus joy stick. Shame that wasn't added to the G80 as it may be a solution to the problem if pressing this joy stick down allows for quick focus in much the same way as a half press of the shutter button does.

I agree peaking isn't that great. I have the battery grip for the G80; took months to deliver. Works very well and will ensure the G80 will replace my GH4 when the GH5 arrives. Being weather sealed and able to have a mic attached would make it a better choice than the GX80 when I'm filming in the rain or if gathering guest messages, so I'm glad I have it, even in light of the upcoming GH5.

I have used my G80 for 3 weddings now, we also have a GX80 and GH4R and AX100
The GH4 is relegated to tripod duty due to lack of IBIS

The GX80 we find rather awkward to use, we have it set up for BBF with the AE button which is almost flush to the body. Small form factor but not my favourite to use.

The G80 we find a joy to use, set up for BBF, plenty of function buttons, we use touch screen to place focus and the shutter button to stop/start recording.

The GH5 looks tempting, but at more than twice the price of a G80, I am not entirely sure I will get one.

The gx85 was my biggest surprise of last year, used it at every wedding and has become one of my more important camera's, I will have to wait until weddingseason starts to see how the g80 really behaves but looking forward to using these camera's in a tandem, not retiring my gh4 though, just like my gh3 it has been one of my most reliable camera's. The gh5 will follow eventually, but only after the price has gone down a bit.

Anyone installed the latest 1.2 firmware on the g80? My camera got a lot more silent after that update, before the IBIS was quite noisy, worse then my gx80, now they sound the same.

Thanks for reminding me :) , I'll be uploading this week

Updated both the GX80 and G80 with the new firmware and both barely make a sound. Haven't done a full test yet, but initial handling shows a marked improvement. Perhaps as part of the procedure, I could hear an audible thud from the camera on my work desk once the update was complete. First time I heard it, it was from the G80; it made me jump and I turned round thinking something had fallen onto the desk, but no it was the camera. Heard the same thud from the GX80, just a bit quieter. Not sure how it ties into the update, but thought I'd mention it as I did wonder if something had happened to the camera.

My g80 had a very noisy IBIS when I first got it, a grinding sound that you could clearly hear from a meter distance in a silent room, on my gx80 you could only hear the IBIS if you held your ear close to it which is why I was disappointed about the g80. Good that the firmware update solved this.