In the last days I am wondering the situations that 4K and output is useful in this camera.

The problem is that the camera can’t record in 4K and show the image on LCD while output is enabled. LCD screen switched off when you need to send the signal to SDI/HDMI (even on lower resolutions) while 4K recording is active. So the operator can’t see what he records.

So the only use of this feature that I can think is when you need to use an external field monitor or external recording.

Even if you try to use an external monitor to pass through the signal from monitor in/out you are losing all the display marks (menu/settings/battery level/ recording and remaining time etc).

So in 4K records is useless if you need to use it for broadcasting and live streaming. Also if you need to send image to and external TV/videowall while recording on 4K is useless.

Totally bad design… that probably caused on image processor.

As I search I found a lot of functionality limitations on this camera and I am totally disappointed. The only thing that holds me on looking for that model is the low price. But I am wondering is that worth it or I can wait until Panasonic AG-UX180 release to check the differences.

I too am waiting for the AG-UX180. It will have a 20x optical zoom as well as 50/60P recording in UHD.

Ron Evans

I work on live streaming of events/conferences etc. 50/60P doesn’t mean something to me. 20x it’s good, but I never needed more than 12x in my events, so a “digital” zoom (with the help of 4K) is good enough for me.

But output means a lot. With 4K recording limitation on output, I can’t use it at all. This totally disables 4K recording on live streaming (I can use it only for event’s that not streamed live).

I never see (from my experience) any other camcorder to switch off LCD just to have output on recording (if anyone know other model to do that please tell me). It’s totally useless and “STUPID”. How can operate the camera if I can’t see info and image on it?

I think that it would be more fair for Sony to say 4K output is only for playback or to push processor to give a lower resolution output if this is possible. I read it a lot the manual to understand this limitation, first I thought that it was only for 4K output or for Field Monitor (it wasn't clear). They just say 4K output on HDMI, to do what with it, playback? This at least a prosumer camera not a consumer camera for my holidays.

I hope that it’s not too late for this camera hardware and I wish find a way from Sony to fix it with a firmware update. It’s too pity, because for that price it’s a very good camera.

The FS5 has the same issue. Must be a hardware issue, though they remedied it partially with the raw upgrade, so who knows if this is a marketing/sales or a hardware/software limitation.

WOW I didn't expect that (from the operation guide it says "A signal cannot be output from the jacks above when recording in 4K mode [XAVC QFHD]). Nice... I was searching on cheaper models like Sony PXW-Z100 that seams that this isn't a problem.

But the question remains, what is the meaning to have output 4K output, exept playback (useless), field monitors and external recording. Maybe it's a marketing limitation, but this is on something basic.

I am one step closer to Panasonic... I hope that they do better job.

I do not think the PXW-Z100 is cheaper than the X70. It has a more powerful processor than the X70 to encode for 50/60P and does 4K DCI too so a cut above the X70 though it is not as good in low light as its sensor is smaller. I have the FDR-AX1 the prosumer version and compared to my FDR-AX100 with same sensor as the X70 it is only a little bit less performance in low light as the lens differences make up some of the sensor size differences. Both AX1 and the Z100 have 20x zooms and will record 50/60P in UHD. Which is why I am looking at the AG-UX180 as an upgrade.

Ron Evans

I meaning that I was looking in cheaper models than FS5. The only problem on Panasonic is that's not perform good in low light even with bigger sensor (Panasonic AG-DVX200). Sony do better job in that area with same sensor.

WOW I didn't expect that (from the operation guide it says "A signal cannot be output from the jacks above when recording in 4K mode [XAVC QFHD]). Nice... I was searching on cheaper models like Sony PXW-Z100 that seams that this isn't a problem.

But the question remains, what is the meaning to have output 4K output, exept playback (useless), field monitors and external recording. Maybe it's a marketing limitation, but this is on something basic.

I am one step closer to Panasonic... I hope that they do better job.

Many Sony cameras today are based on similar 4k rendering/scaling chips. So, the limitation that the Z150 has in 4k is the same as all the A7 series, A6300 and X70 cameras. In 1080, there is no limitation.

The cameras can only process so many streams at one time. It seems that two 4k streams is the limit. If recording to the internal CODEC and HDMI is active, they must remove one stream from the cameras LCD monitor. You can still see camera data on it, just not the live sensor video.

Even the FS5 does this too.

CT

That is why you have to take the lens into consideration. The Z100 and FDR-AX1 start at F1.7 not F2.8 and ramp slower than the DVX200 or even the X70. An example is my FDR-AX1 compared to a X70 I had to demo. Both on automatic pointed at the same scene in my living room. FDR-AX1 F1.7 at 24db, X70 F2.8 24db and both images looked the same for brightness with zebras appearing on the same white areas. By comparison my NX5U 3 chip 1/3" showed F1.7 at 9db.

I want to see what lens the AG-UX180 has to compare etc.

Ron Evans

t seems that two 4k streams is the limit.

I wouldn't have problem to output an 1080p or the native LCD resolution (720p). It's not the 4K output the problem, no one will broadcast 4K with HDMI (this isn't a professional solution), only with SDI 6G.

I expect that when we actually get 4k/UHD broadcasts it will be 50/60P SDI 12G anyway to cover all program types. SDI 12G catches up with HDMI 2.0 in some respects.

Ron Evans

I am pretty sure it is a HEAT production issue, that current economical hardware cannot deal with. If you look at the specs for most broadcast gear, you will see a several watt increase in power consumption for LCD and SDI outputs, it takes power to drive those, and power creates heat. Obviously, they could put a fan inside, but a fan blowing hard enough to cool off the economical video chips would be loud enough to cause complaints.

I would LOVE UHD at 60p, with a 20x zoom, but I REQUIRE MPEG-TS live streaming, which the Panasonics do not offer. I need 60p because I shoot for an ABC station, which means we broadcast 60p native.

Paul

I am pretty sure it is a HEAT production issue...

Maybe...

Of course Sony mechanics know that better, but at least it’s just “annoying” the way that they said that on manual on page 72.

Recording format XAVC QFHD - 2160/24p
HDMI OUT output signal format : 2160/24p
SDI OUT output signal format : 1080/24p

They don’t put somewhere an asterisk that LCD switched off. If you see in the rest of table, it says the limitations for each situation. They said it only on page 38 on how to choose output.

If a buyer takes a quick look on manual to see specifications, it will not notice that. It will go directly to supported format table, not in how to choose LCD or External Monitor.

On FS5 manual it’s more fair, they said clearly you can’t output on 4K recording (I know that Z150 way it's a little improvement, but useless).

Inside me I hope that they do that for marketing reason that can fixed with a firmware upgrade, but if it’s hardware limitation then ;(

But for me that I need this camera for Live Streaming (and 4K recording for recording) an 720p output, it’s good enough for now (or later 1080p). On live streaming area only with x265 we can make a stable 4K broadcast but it’s far away at this time.
.
So I will wait until I see Panasonic specs even if they don’t have some Sony goodies.

They do not tell you that 720p live streaming is only available when shooting 30p codecs...........perfect........

Paul

Check on page 88

The streaming function is not available when using the following functions.
– During playback
– During thumbnail display
– In the following formats when the file format is AVCHD: 1080/60p, 1080/50p, 720/60p, 720/50p
– In the following formats when the file format is XAVC QFHD: 2160/30p 100Mbps, 2160/24p 100Mbps, 2160/25p 100Mbps

As I understand you can record on 60Mbps on 4K and stream on 720p, but with Sony you will never be sure ;).

Only an owner that have some time to test it, can clarify the limitations functionality on Streaming and Output.

Just to be clear, there is a 720p and 360p streaming options, i am stuck with 360p streaming because I ALWAYS shoot 60p for broadcast (ABC).

Paul

I try to collect all functionality about 4K recording on Sony models (it's only for 4K recording mode not lower resolutions)

Correct me if I am wrong somewhere (I took these information's from user guides, any firmware update can change this functionality)

4K Recording + LCD Screen

PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: YES
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : YES
PXW-X70: YES
4K Recording + HDMI/SDI Output

PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: YES (firmware 1.1)
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : YES
PXW-X70: YES

4K Recording + HDMI/SDI Output + LCD Screen
PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: NO
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : NO
PXW-X70: NO (? on firmware 3.0 - Waiting for Verification)
HDMI + SDI Simultaneously Output

PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: NO
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : NO
PXW-X70: NO
Can I use external field monitor on 4K Recording?

PXW-FS7: YES (SDI 1080p / HDMI 4K)
PXW-FS5: YES (firmware 1.1)
PXW-Z100 : YES (SDI 1080p / HDMI 4K)
PXW-Z150 : YES - LCD Swiched off (SDI 1080p or HDMI 4K)
PXW-X70: YES - LCD Swiched off (SDI 1080p or HDMI 4K)
Can I use external device for 4K Recording?

[LIST] PXW-FS7 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-FS5 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-Z100 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-Z150 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-X70 : YES (HDMI Only)

I am pretty sure it is a HEAT production issue, that current economical hardware cannot deal with. If you look at the specs for most broadcast gear, you will see a several watt increase in power consumption for LCD and SDI outputs, it takes power to drive those, and power creates heat. Obviously, they could put a fan inside, but a fan blowing hard enough to cool off the economical video chips would be loud enough to cause complaints.

I would LOVE UHD at 60p, with a 20x zoom, but I REQUIRE MPEG-TS live streaming, which the Panasonics do not offer. I need 60p because I shoot for an ABC station, which means we broadcast 60p native.

Paul

Yes my FDR-AX1 has a fan as does the Z100. The FDR-AX1 eats 970 batteries too. They almost last 1 hour recording UHD 60P but in my NX5U will last over 4 hours so you can see the power difference. Due to both the processing and writing to XQD cards at 150Mbps. Fan noise is not really noticeable unless you are in an almost silent room then less than the fan in the BM Video Assist.

Ron Evans

I try to collect all functionality about 4K recording on Sony models (it's only for 4K recording mode not lower resolutions)

Correct me if I am wrong somewhere (I took these inflammations from user guides, any firmware update can change this functionality)

4K Recording + LCD Screen

PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: YES
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : YES
PXW-X70: YES
4K Recording + HDMI/SDI Output



PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: NO
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : YES
PXW-X70: YES

4K Recording + HDMI/SDI Output + LCD Screen
PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: NO
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : NO
PXW-X70: NO
HDMI + SDI Simultaneously Output

PXW-FS7: YES
PXW-FS5: NO
PXW-Z100 : YES
PXW-Z150 : NO
PXW-X70: NO
Can I use external field monitor on 4K Recording?

PXW-FS7: YES (SDI 1080p / HDMI 4K)
PXW-FS5: NO
PXW-Z100 : YES (SDI 1080p / HDMI 4K)
PXW-Z150 : YES - LCD Swiched off (SDI 1080p or HDMI 4K)
PXW-X70: YES - LCD Swiched off (SDI 1080p or HDMI 4K)
Can I use external device for 4K Recording?

PXW-FS7 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-FS5 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-Z100 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-Z150 : YES (HDMI Only)
PXW-X70 : YES (HDMI Only)

Anthony,
Correction: My X70 records in 4K, outputs SDI/HDMI and LED flip out works all at the same time.

Thanks for all the leg work.

Yes I see that on your other post but I wasn't sure, I took this information from the official operating manual. I didn't realize the v3.0 version so I look now again in the firmware here

https://www.sony.co.uk/pro/support/software/SET_150526_PSG/20
http://di.update.sony.net/HXR/t6x8HKdLoL/PXWX70V300_manual.pdf

and on page 24 it says for functions added with Ver. 3.00

- External output and face detection support when recording in XAVC QFHD (4K)

Nice, that’s impressive and I hope to do the same for Z150 model. It’s so pity for this camera to have this limitation.

Anthony,
Correction: My X70 records in 4K, outputs SDI/HDMI and LED flip out works all at the same time.

Thanks for all the leg work.

CORRECTION!!!

The X70 DOES give up it's flip out LED screen when recording in 4K AND putting out a SDI/HDMI signal. Only data appears on the screen....no video.

I was going on what my partner told me from his experience. He was wrong. Shortly I will try it myself to see what it does when recording in HD.

Very sorry for the erroneous statement.

CORRECTION!!!

The X70 DOES give up it's flip out LED screen when recording in 4K AND putting out a SDI/HDMI signal. Only data appears on the screen....no video.

I was going on what my partner told me from his experience. He was wrong. Shortly I will try it myself to see what it does when recording in HD.

Very sorry for the erroneous statement.

I test it by your self when you find some time. Data it's something because you can use an external monitor with no data on it and with the output of monitor to give it somewhere else.

Also test if you can lower resolutions. For example 4K recording and 1080p/720p output (if it doesn't have 3.0 firmware, install it to check if something changed)

I detect something interesting.

Z150 can stream with max 720p over network. But it can’t do that in 4K 100Mbps only in 4K 60Mbps.
So in this situation it uses the LCD Screen and Wifi OutPut, that means processor can produce 1 stream in 4K and 2 streams in 720p/360p (I suppose that the 720p stream is the same for LCD and WiFi-Streaming).

With these options I think that they can give in next firmware, 4K recording at 60Mbps, LCD and HDMI/SDI output at least in 720p. At least 720p is something from nothing.

But I don’t know about the limits of power consumption because HDMI needs 5V and I don’t know if the build of WiFi have the same power consumption.

I've never streamed in 720p before.........I know my X70 and Z150 will not allow it in 60p or in 4K no matter what the bitrate. Really lame that I cannot stream 720p while in 720p record mode.....that makes no sense at all.

Paul

In the manual of z150 says

The streaming function is not available when using the following functions.
– During playback
– During thumbnail display
– In the following formats when the file format is AVCHD: 1080/60p, 1080/50p, 720/60p, 720/50p
– In the following formats when the file format is XAVC QFHD: 2160/30p 100Mbps, 2160/24p 100Mbps,2160/25p 100Mbps

Based on this I suppose that it can use XAVC QFHD: 60Mbps. Or this another mistake on user manual. Otherwise It doesn't have any sense to say that you can't stream in specific bitrate.

But that it makes me really “angry” about Sony is that. If a buyer see in a shop what it can do it will say:

- 4K Output : Yes
- Streaming function: Yes
- Control with Android/iOS : Yes
- FTP : Yes
- I don’t know what other minor functions: Yes

And the buyer it says OK, Sony offers more than other manufactures (like Panasonic with AG-DVX200 or I suppose the new AG-UX180)

But if you read the manual in deep (the most users doesn’t before buy something) you will find a lot of limitations... I MEAN A LOT!!! That’s why if you remember I ask you to send me the manual (that they delay a lot to upload it)

In Sony cameras you spend more time to find and remember on what you can’t do, than the use of camera.

From the first time that I informed about the new Sony Z150 I was excited, now I am close to disappointed.

This is unfair and I think that is a “marketing cheat”. In practice you just can’t use these features.

Live streaming IS AVAILABLE in 4K 60Mbps mode, I just confirmed that on my Z150 before typing this........connected successfully to my stations Teradek server. X70 will also do live streaming in 60Mbps 4K mode.

Paul

Nice as they said that on manual, I hope to do that also for video out (at least 720p)

Thanks

It will do 720p out of SDI while recording 60Mbps 4K........I shoot 4K live shots because it allows much better digital zoom operation.

Paul

It will do 720p out of SDI while recording 60Mbps 4K.

You mean with a firmware update or it supports now 4K recording at 60Mbps + LCD active + SDI/HDMI output at the same time?

I shoot 4K live shots because it allows much better digital zoom operation.

That's why I need 4K for my live streaming events, 720p it's enough for live streaming with available bandwidth speed, but on demand videos need resolution

I found this thread interesting for reasons I'll explain. I've had the Z150 for about 6 months and I love it. I shoot both HD and 4K and have never run into this issue of the camera LCD screen turning off while shooting either format. Now here is where it gets interesting. I use the Lilliput 663 monitor via HDMI if I'm shooting for a client. I've shot dozens of times with that monitor in HD with no problem. Just yesterday ... for the first time ... I was shooting for a client in 4K using that monitor. Everything looked fine during the shot set-up but when I hit the Record button, the Lilliput monitor screen went black except for the time code display in the upper right. It freaked me out but I checked the thumbnails and the shot was there. So I apologized to the client and had them watch the camera LCD screen during the recording. So the 4K image passes thru the HDMI to the external monitor OK until you hit Record. Then it shuts off. Even more interesting is if I bring up the Thumbnails and select one, the playback will appear in both the Camera LCD and the Lilliput external. So it works during playback but not record.

The fact some people are experiencing the camera LCD shutting off and I'm seeing the external shut off makes me wonder if there is some menu setting we are setting differently. BTW ... I don't know if this even matters but I shut off that function where the LCD shuts off if your eye goes to the back viewfinder.

No there no menu option for that, they just design it like that :(. Check on page 38 on user manual to see about this limitation.

Live streaming IS AVAILABLE in 4K 60Mbps mode, I just confirmed that on my Z150 before typing this........connected successfully to my stations Teradek server. X70 will also do live streaming in 60Mbps 4K mode.

Paul How do you connect the camera to the Teradek. I cannot make this happen. Any help would be terrific. TIA.

How do yo connect the camera to a Teradek ENCODER to feed out, or how do you stream to a Teradek RECEIVER/DECODER? To stream to a Teradek DECODER, you must purchase the MPEG-TS option, which is $500 USD, and cannot be transferred . All Sony cameras (XDCAM) stream MPEG-TS.

Paul