I know my questions are and will be often a pain in the rear..

Actually no, they are not. I greatly appreciate that you have chosen to hold this conversation on DVi.

I did not mean to sound curt with my short reply of just "framing and composition." My point I guess is that it all starts from there, and I had no time then (nor now it seems) to go into a treatise on the subject. But that is indeed where you begin. Put the camcorder in Auto mode and concentrate first and foremost on framing and composition. Eventually you can graduate to gradually taking manual control of the camera settings, but save that until after the basics of framing and composition have been learned through doing. Hope this helps!

Michael, one thing you haven't mentioned... Is MacKenzie a visual learner or an aural learner?

It will make a difference in how you try to teach MacKenzie the things he needs to learn.

Another teaching tool are podcasts. There are hundreds if not thousands of podcasts on every subject related to audio/video pre/post production and everything in between.

Everyone from manufacturers to professionals, and amateurs to semi-professionals has produced an audio or video podcast on any topic you are interested in.

There are also free university courses available through iTunes U. These courses include syllabi and reference materials. Some even include material in pdf format.

Gary (whom I seldom... actually, never, in my recollection, agree with) is 100% dead-on in this case.

You are getting a lot of good advice from a lot of people. You are asking good questions and getting good answers. Because you haven't done this before (and, if you'll excuse the Donald Rumsfeld-ism, you don't know what you don't know), you are forgetting to ask huge questions, and some (a very few) people (Gary among them) are answering them without you asking them. Forgive him (and me) for being presumptuous.

Gary's advice of buying a <$1k camera and going hog-wild is a great suggestion. I will one-up his advice and tell you to look at the 2010 "best pro-sumer camera" list, all of which will be in the $5k-$10k range, pick the one you like best, and pick it up used off eBay or Craigslist for that same $1k. You will get 5x the camera that you would get brand new, and the depreciation will be practically nil.

Your technical A/V questions are spot on. The elephant in the room is the business of it all. Your thought process of "we'll shoot it and make it great, everybody will buy it" couldn't be more wrong.

You got some great camera and technical advice. Focus on business advice now. Ask questions. Be specific. Lay out your game plan. Tell us where you'll sell, to whom, and pricing. You are assuming a lot of things and your assumptions are way off.

Edit: Please remember... we, the collective DVinfo crowd, want to set you guys up for success. That's why we're grinding you! :-)

Mike,

Thank you for the reply, and the comments, suggestions, and advice it contained.

What I will say for the business is that I have a target audience , I will have multiple ways of reaching that target audience, and pricing will be in the competitive range of what other vendors are charging for their offerings. The wild card as I have said repeatedly is whether Mackenzie will be able to do this. If he can, we will be good to go. If he can not, then nothing else matters.
I have identified a target audience, I have ways to reach them, I have a pricing structure, with Mackenzie doing his part, I will have a product to deliver to that audience, in your opinion, just what more do I need.

Contrary to what some may think, I do not have a "secret" model. The place where I work has a target audience, it has a product, it has a pricing structure, it has ways of reaching it's target audience.

Thanks,

Michael

Michael,

You have been candid, honest, and most of all...a class act. Please keep it up. Remember, "how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time".

Steve

Steve,

Thank you for the kind remarks. I would express the same sentiments toward all my new found friends here.


Michael

Ofcourse you can post his work here and ask for constructive feedback.

Noa

Thank you for the reply. That is a relief, and I certainly will .



Michael

Michael -
Auto will only get you so far, but most cameras will do "OK" to get you started (aside from 4K shooting, where manual is a must, IMO).

Chris is spot on about framing and composition, which basically means how you get your camera pointed in such a way as to get an "interesting" shot. You can just go around and shoot "stuff" and see how it looks. I've noticed some people have a natural "eye" for it, others, not so much, but with training they can get good results, others, well, their skills must lie elsewhere...

As I mentioned in my earlier post, learn what shutter speed, iris, and gain mean to how your video will look (especially shutter speed with 4K that is typically 30FPS rather than 60). While you can let the camera handle these things, it's better to know how to take control when needed.

White balance should be on that list, along with some study of color correction and various "looks", as those "effects" can be used to enhance the final product. You hopefully will get decent looking "video" results out of most cameras, but to get a professional finished look can be a whole other layer of fine tuning.

Usually it's easy enough to find the "on" button or flip out the LCD, and figure out to hit the "red button", the things above will get you moving in the right direction after that. Keep in mind that editing what he shoots will help him refine his camera skills, and is a good part of what you'll be doing. Not sure if your son is comfortable with computers, but it will help a lot if he is, and he can get into the editing.


We all have to start somewhere, most times with whatever cheap camera we can afford, and work up from there - the skills will translate even if the menus and buttons move (and that's frustrating to us too sometimes!).



As far as monetizing, that's a whole other layer of the onion. You'll find discussions here about various video "jobs", and business models. Especially today, a job or business model that works one day may not work next month, and one that seemed silly last year might be the next big thing with the right twist of technology and social media.

Worst case, it will probably be good for your son to build a set of new skills, even if they don't turn into the big bucks... if he enjoys it, it will be something he will always have with him for his personal enjoyment - the memories of you working together, as the commercial goes, are "priceless". As I mentioned before, don't push it too hard, let it come to him naturally, burnout is always a risk even with something that can be as much fun as creating something "cool"...

Dave

Thank you for the reply and all the information it contained. Thanks to you, Chris and others, I can now begin to organize and fill in my lesson plan(s).

Mackenzie loves working on the computer. I think I will try with editing what he shoots for practice, it just might be another reinforcer, and as you say, a learning tool as well.

On your last point, I will do the best that I can. The key is to never make it aversive, which means as much as possible make it fun, with plenty of breaks. I am pretty sure I will be buying an external monitor, as I think it will greatly enhance things, and most importantly make it "easier" for Mackenzie.

Once again, thank you very much.


Michael

Actually no, they are not. I greatly appreciate that you have chosen to hold this conversation on DVi.

I did not mean to sound curt with my short reply of just "framing and composition." My point I guess is that it all starts from there, and I had no time then (nor now it seems) to go into a treatise on the subject. But that is indeed where you begin. Put the camcorder in Auto mode and concentrate first and foremost on framing and composition. Eventually you can graduate to gradually taking manual control of the camera settings, but save that until after the basics of framing and composition have been learned through doing. Hope this helps!

Chris

Thank you for the reply. I will most certainly follow this advice. As short as it has so far been, I have greatly enjoyed my time here, and the new friends I have found. We are just at the beginning of the beginning of this journey, and if you will have us, we will take you every step of the way

As I said in my opening post, besides what I am doing for Mackenzie, I hope this process, can in some way, be useful to others with challenges, to serve as an example, an inspiration, a guide, whatever they need it to be.

Thank you again !

Michael

Michael, one thing you haven't mentioned... Is MacKenzie a visual learner or an aural learner?

It will make a difference in how you try to teach MacKenzie the things he needs to learn.

Another teaching tool are podcasts. There are hundreds if not thousands of podcasts on every subject related to audio/video pre/post production and everything in between.

Everyone from manufacturers to professionals, and amateurs to semi-professionals has produced an audio or video podcast on any topic you are interested in.

There are also free university courses available through iTunes U. These courses include syllabi and reference materials. Some even include material in pdf format.

Ed

Thanks again for the reply ! Mackenzie is a very strong visual learner.

You have supplied me with some great information, and I greatly appreciate it ! I have encountered some of what you have said here, but just had not internalized how large a volume of material there was.

Thank you again.

Michael

There are filmmakers on the Autism spectrum.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2014/07/23/my-journey-autism-film-lover-filmmaker

Autism Doesn't Hold Back Filmmaker (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gregory-g-allen/autism-doesnt-hold-back-f_b_5550002.html)

The Red Carpet: Documentary about an autistic filmmaker - Wrong Planet (http://wrongplanet.net/the-red-carpet-documentary-about-an-autistic-filmmaker/)

Model Trucks.....As soon as you get a camera get some large large toy trucks for training purposes. You can train with them right in your home and Mackenzie will be learning while being engaged with his favorite and target subject. Get some that move. He can learn angles while they are still. Moving subjects present a whole new dimension in shooting video. A rolling toy will be great training. Don't assume it will be easy, its not, but you will be able to control that and introduce the motion slowly to keep it fun for him.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Regarding moving objects, there are generally two approaches: 1) lock down the camera so that the moving object comes into/out of/traverses the space, or 2) track the object.

The challenge with the locked down approach is that one needs to envision where the object will move and frame the shot with that in mind. The challenge with a tracking shot is that it takes good equipment and physical skill. If you will do tracking shots, it's really critical to get a good tripod. The Sachtler Ace and Vinten Blue are good choices. They might seem terribly high priced for three sticks and a head, but if you do your research, you'll find that they are entry level for professional work. (That said, there may be some cheaper tripods out there that happen to be solid with smooth movement. But don't be surprised when the $300 tripod with great reviews delivers shaky shots.) In general, the tighter the shot, the more critical the tripod. If you are a good distance from a construction site and are zooming into a single vehicle, don't be surprised if you need to spend more on the tripod than the camera.

Regarding Stephen's suggestion of model trucks, note that the camera will need macro capabilities if the models are especially small. You might be better off with Tonka than Matchbox. :)

There are filmmakers on the Autism spectrum.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2014/07/23/my-journey-autism-film-lover-filmmaker

Autism Doesn't Hold Back Filmmaker (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gregory-g-allen/autism-doesnt-hold-back-f_b_5550002.html)

The Red Carpet: Documentary about an autistic filmmaker - Wrong Planet (http://wrongplanet.net/the-red-carpet-documentary-about-an-autistic-filmmaker/)


Brian

Thank you for the reply. That is some really great information. Nice to see what is possible.

Thanks,

Michael

Model Trucks.....As soon as you get a camera get some large large toy trucks for training purposes. You can train with them right in your home and Mackenzie will be learning while being engaged with his favorite and target subject. Get some that move. He can learn angles while they are still. Moving subjects present a whole new dimension in shooting video. A rolling toy will be great training. Don't assume it will be easy, its not, but you will be able to control that and introduce the motion slowly to keep it fun for him.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Steve

What a great reply ! In a million years, I would not have thought of that.

Thank you very much !

Michael

Regarding moving objects, there are generally two approaches: 1) lock down the camera so that the moving object comes into/out of/traverses the space, or 2) track the object.

The challenge with the locked down approach is that one needs to envision where the object will move and frame the shot with that in mind. The challenge with a tracking shot is that it takes good equipment and physical skill. If you will do tracking shots, it's really critical to get a good tripod. The Sachtler Ace and Vinten Blue are good choices. They might seem terribly high priced for three sticks and a head, but if you do your research, you'll find that they are entry level for professional work. (That said, there may be some cheaper tripods out there that happen to be solid with smooth movement. But don't be surprised when the $300 tripod with great reviews delivers shaky shots.) In general, the tighter the shot, the more critical the tripod. If you are a good distance from a construction site and are zooming into a single vehicle, don't be surprised if you need to spend more on the tripod than the camera.

Regarding Stephen's suggestion of model trucks, note that the camera will need macro capabilities if the models are especially small. You might be better off with Tonka than Matchbox. :)

Jon

Thank you for this informative post. I was going to get around to eventually asking about tripods, which is something I most assuredly need help from those that already use them.

You and Steve are thinking outside the box. Mackenzie has a few radio controlled cars that I could use, a couple are fairly large.

Thank you again !

Michael

Jon,

"Think Tonka, not Matchbox" YES, I was thinking in terms of Tonka size but had forgotten about them. What a flood of memories!!! Do they still make them, I wonder? At one time I must have owned the entire fleet. I dug many a hole in my backyard larger than my father was pleased with. Especially because I used the dump trucks to haul off the dirt so they could not be back filled!

I was the king of Matchbox and Hot Wheels. Gravity racing sport at its finest. And then high tech came around with Sizzlers, the motorized Hot Wheels. My kids don't believe it but there was life and joy for some of us kids that grew up before the internet, video games, and cell phones.

Michael, think Tonka sized toys. That is what I had in mind but Jon nailed it!

Steve

Editing is also a key aspect of film making, so a newcomer has to learn the concepts and grammar used in making films. No shot stands alone in a film (even in a single shot film, which usually consists of what amounts to shots connected together as one shot) .

Be sure to read Chris Soucy's three tripod reviews. They will provide you with the knowledge of what features and design criteria to look at and compare.

Review: Vinten Vision Blue (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-vinten-vision-blue.html)

Review: Manfrotto 504HD/ 546GBK Video Support System (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-manfrotto-504hd-546gbk-video-support-system.html)

Review: Libec RS 250M Video Support System (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-libec-rs-250m-video-support-system.html)

More informaton...

Camera Support (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport)

Jon,

"Think Tonka, not Matchbox" YES, I was thinking in terms of Tonka size but had forgotten about them. What a flood of memories!!! Do they still make them, I wonder? At one time I must have owned the entire fleet. I dug many a hole in my backyard larger than my father was pleased with. Especially because I used the dump trucks to haul off the dirt so they could not be back filled!

I was the king of Matchbox and Hot Wheels. Gravity racing sport at its finest. And then high tech came around with Sizzlers, the motorized Hot Wheels. My kids don't believe it but there was life and joy for some of us kids that grew up before the internet, video games, and cell phones.

Michael, think Tonka sized toys. That is what I had in mind but Jon nailed it!

Steve

Steve

Thanks ! Tonka, do they still make them? I know when I was young, they had all kinds of neat metal trucks and things. I used to use mine to excavate large portions of my yard, which of course made my parents very happy. They did not use time out in those days for correction.

Yes, it is a different world. In my youth, during the summer, my friends and I were outside all day from after breakfast until dark and sometimes after, only taking a short break to wolf down lunch and get a drink of something( typically kool-aid) every now and then.

Thanks.

Michael

Editing is also a key aspect of film making, so a newcomer has to learn the concepts and grammar used in making films. No shot stands alone in a film (even in a single shot film, which usually consists of what amounts to shots connected together as one shot) .

Brian

Thanks for the reply. Editing is an important objective for us. Mackenzie is well suited to spending a long time on the computer, it is just a matter of internalizing the technical skill of editing.

One thing I am anticipating, is that through his editing, I may get somewhat of an insight into how he perceives his world. I know it is not the same as all of us do. Might make for some interesting scenes.

Thank you

Michael

Be sure to read Chris Soucy's three tripod reviews. They will provide you with the knowledge of what features and design criteria to look at and compare.

Review: Vinten Vision Blue (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-vinten-vision-blue.html)

Review: Manfrotto 504HD/ 546GBK Video Support System (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-manfrotto-504hd-546gbk-video-support-system.html)

Review: Libec RS 250M Video Support System (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-libec-rs-250m-video-support-system.html)

More informaton...

Camera Support (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport)

Ed

Thank you very much for this post and the information. It does raise a couple of questions. We will be outdoors, sometimes possibly not in a level spot, should a tripod in that situation use spreaders ? What are the advantages of using spreaders as opposed to using a tripod without in an outdoor setting ?

Mackenzie is over 6'2", nearly 6'3", what would be an appropriate height for a tripod ? It is almost a certainty that I will be attaching a monitor/recorder to the camera, and he will do better if he does not have to bend over very much.

Ed, I want to thank you and everyone else who have been so very helpful here in the early stages of our quest.

Michael

Yes, spreaders, but mid-level gives more flexibility IMO.

And the head has to be a ball head so you don't have to adjust stick lengths, but you probably know this.

I have a 5.5 lb cam (before accessories) and it works very well (for me) with Libec RT25D/RT30B that has a capacity of 13 lbs (about $800 for the head, sticks w/spreader and carrying case).

My older Manfrotto had a higher reach and a center crank and I liked those two features.

Take your time to pick a tripod !

On a light note, re removal of spreaders, the wider you let the legs go the greater the chance of a passer-by tripping over them.

I had an excellent solution to protecting the cam/tripod for outdoor work for a number of years.

My german shepherd liked to sleep under the setup and this gave me a diameter of about 8 feet of safe space.

One thing I am anticipating, is that through his editing, I may get somewhat of an insight into how he perceives his world. I know it is not the same as all of us do. Might make for some interesting scenes.
l

Bear in mind that NLEs can work to different paradigms, so you may need to discover which one works best for him. Each has its supporters saying it's intuitive etc, however, that may not apply to your son, who may have a different take on the process to current users.

I don't use FCP X and I don't like its workflow, however, with someone starting from scratch, that's what I'd unquestionably recommend.

NLEs....Good thing to bring up. If they are already on a Mac platform then FCP yes. If not then I am wondering if Vegas would be the best choice.

Without going into detail I think Adobe CC would be the worst possible choice.

I am NOT a Vegas user so please tell me if I am wrong. Vegas has always had a reputation for having a user friendly GUI. You can also perform multiple editing functions (like authoring DVDs and audio sweetening) within the same GUI. You don't need to keep opening a new program/app for each task as you do with Adobe products. In fact Adobe discontinued support for Encore a couple years ago. They do not even have a DVD authoring app anymore. I think using just one Graphical User Interface would be huge for Mackenzie. That sounds like Vegas to me.

Also, for those of you that may have heard rumors of the demise of Vegas it is not true. Sony sold the rights to Vegas to Magix LTD. A UK based software co. Magix claims a total commitment to Vegas. In fact right now you can buy Vegas V13 pro for about half price and you will get the new V14 free when released by Magix in September. I got that information here at DVInfo in the Vegas forum. There is a rep from Magix contributing to the thread.

Kind Regards,

Steve

I agree, FCP on the Mac and Vegas on the PC. I mainly use Vegas Pro, which is quite powerful. It's designed for single users, rather than teams, and it follows standard Windows conventions, so there are few surprises where the UI designers got too "creative."

Regarding a spreader, definitely a mid-level spreader. A floor spreader is useless on uneven ground. With no spreader, you risk the thing splaying apart and falling to the ground, depending on the model tripod. Regarding height, I'm 6-2. Most any good 3 stage tripod should do the job.

Back on the camera, lens reach is a big consideration. For instance, the Canon XA10 has a 10x zoom from 35mm equivalent 30.4mm - 304mm. This goes from somewhat wide to moderate tele. On the other hand, the XA30 goes from 26.8–576mm, which is a true wide to a very long tele. Much wider and you get perspective distortion and other practical challenges (24 is okay, 20 is really challenging, and beyond 16 gets into special effects territory.) Having a really long reach would allow you to set up far from the job site and still get that interesting detail.

Another possibility is to go with a 4K camera, shoot wide, and pan-scan and zoom in post. This might fit Mackenzie's skill set better. For instance the Sony X70 has a 29 to 348mm range, but with 4K, you can do a 2x digital zoom for an HD output with no loss. That makes it effectively 29 to 696mm. For a given shot, you can shoot twice as wide as you would expect to need and re-frame later. This is especially helpful when you don't know exactly where the equipment will move next.

The one consideration with 4K is that you'll need lots of storage media and a powerful computer to work with it. That said, all of the popular editing systems support it. And if you're doing an HD output, you don't necessarily need a 4K monitor or video card.

Note that the cameras listed above are low-end pro (prosumer) cams that will have good quality without too much video compression as well as record good audio. You can find consumer cams with similar specs on the surface, but the video compression will be higher and the audio won't be as clean. In addition, you can plug a pro mic into these cameras, while you would need extra equipment to add a pro mic to consumer models.

Lightworks has a clean and simple interface and it can be operated in a number of ways. Generally it's easier to learn for those users not carrying any baggage from other NLEs. It really depends on what he wants to do, you can shoot and then upload to Youtube and Vimeo for free, For the all the other export options you need the Pro version.

Don't believe what they are telling you Michael, Edius 8 is the best NLE and I know because I am using it.
Just kidding, not about Edius but about not believing the others. :) Your choice in a NLE is even more difficult then choosing a camera, it will be very difficult to switch if you don't like a NLE, when I switched from Premiere to Edius it was like starting all over and even the most simple tasks required me to go to the Edius forum for advice. For your son that might be an almost impossible task so I would not take that choice very lightly. Once you make a choice you will have to stick with it.

Before more NLE recommendations, we should learn, 1) which OS he uses, and 2) what other creative programs is he comfortable with? (In other words, not just games and content sites but things like Word, Excel, Paint, Music sequencers... stuff that is user-input driven.)

I have been following this post from the beginning but just went through it all again. Not quite the same issue but I have my wife shoot the closeups for me when I shoot theatre and she may have some of the same issues!!. Tell me what to do and how but will get very upset if things do not work exactly as described !! She uses a Sony AX100 on a Sachtler ACE tripod with LANC remote. The camera is setup in auto exposure ( but with a gain limit and fixed shutter speed ) with AE shift and she looks at the zebras to turn AE shift wheel to get rid of them. ( I have preset the zebra level and she knows that if it is on a white shirt she can ignore ) She uses manual touch spot focus to set focus ( touch the thing I want in focus ). I also have taught her composing to the grid that can be set on the LCD. Standard rule of thirds. Her closeups make all the difference to my productions. She has got very good at shooting and has really no idea how the camera is setup.

So to cameras I think Noa suggested the DVX200 in an earlier post a camera that could do this in much the same way and still be a full pro camera when needed. I expect the AG-UX180 may also work closer to the way I get my wife's AX100 and may have better touch responses than the DVX200. I am waiting to see what the full specs are too.

For NLE's you may want to look at Vegas Movie Studio Platinum. It will do everything a beginner would want , is not expensive and has the same user interface as the full Vegas if he decides to move up into the more elaborate editors. Though the real difference with Movie Studio to Vegas Pro is just more stuff !!! Also Movie Studio has a few things that Vegas Pro does not have !!

I too normally edit with EDIUS 8 WG but also have Vegas ( full and Studio versions over many years ) and ADOBE CS6. For a single track edit, Vegas ( or Vegas Movie Studio ) will operate real easy and sliding clips over one another will automatically dissolve the video and audio.Nice and easy for a beginner to do and understand. Yet the timeline is just like any of the pro NLE's.


Ron Evans

Yes, spreaders, but mid-level gives more flexibility IMO.

And the head has to be a ball head so you don't have to adjust stick lengths, but you probably know this.

I have a 5.5 lb cam (before accessories) and it works very well (for me) with Libec RT25D/RT30B that has a capacity of 13 lbs (about $800 for the head, sticks w/spreader and carrying case).

My older Manfrotto had a higher reach and a center crank and I liked those two features.

Take your time to pick a tripod !

Walter,

Thank you for the reply and the information it contained. I will certainly weigh all my options, and be deliberate in my choice of a tripod set up. I have had many good examples and suggestions already.

Thanks

Michael

Bear in mind that NLEs can work to different paradigms, so you may need to discover which one works best for him. Each has its supporters saying it's intuitive etc, however, that may not apply to your son, who may have a different take on the process to current users.

Brian

Thank you for the reply, and the insight. I do not know for sure yet, but you may be very right about Mackenzie.

Thanks

Michael

I don't use FCP X and I don't like its workflow, however, with someone starting from scratch, that's what I'd unquestionably recommend.

Mike

Thank you very much for the reply. If I may ask, why would you recommend FCP X ?

Thanks

Michael

NLEs....Good thing to bring up. If they are already on a Mac platform then FCP yes. If not then I am wondering if Vegas would be the best choice.

Without going into detail I think Adobe CC would be the worst possible choice.

I am NOT a Vegas user so please tell me if I am wrong. Vegas has always had a reputation for having a user friendly GUI. You can also perform multiple editing functions (like authoring DVDs and audio sweetening) within the same GUI. You don't need to keep opening a new program/app for each task as you do with Adobe products. In fact Adobe discontinued support for Encore a couple years ago. They do not even have a DVD authoring app anymore. I think using just one Graphical User Interface would be huge for Mackenzie. That sounds like Vegas to me.

Also, for those of you that may have heard rumors of the demise of Vegas it is not true. Sony sold the rights to Vegas to Magix LTD. A UK based software co. Magix claims a total commitment to Vegas. In fact right now you can buy Vegas V13 pro for about half price and you will get the new V14 free when released by Magix in September. I got that information here at DVInfo in the Vegas forum. There is a rep from Magix contributing to the thread.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Steve

Thanks for the reply and the heads up about Vegas. To be honest, I thought my choices would be between Adobe and FCP, and I was thinking between the two, FCP might be a better fit for Mackenzie.

Thank you

Michael

I agree, FCP on the Mac and Vegas on the PC. I mainly use Vegas Pro, which is quite powerful. It's designed for single users, rather than teams, and it follows standard Windows conventions, so there are few surprises where the UI designers got too "creative."

Regarding a spreader, definitely a mid-level spreader. A floor spreader is useless on uneven ground. With no spreader, you risk the thing splaying apart and falling to the ground, depending on the model tripod. Regarding height, I'm 6-2. Most any good 3 stage tripod should do the job.

Back on the camera, lens reach is a big consideration. For instance, the Canon XA10 has a 10x zoom from 35mm equivalent 30.4mm - 304mm. This goes from somewhat wide to moderate tele. On the other hand, the XA30 goes from 26.8–576mm, which is a true wide to a very long tele. Much wider and you get perspective distortion and other practical challenges (24 is okay, 20 is really challenging, and beyond 16 gets into special effects territory.) Having a really long reach would allow you to set up far from the job site and still get that interesting detail.

Another possibility is to go with a 4K camera, shoot wide, and pan-scan and zoom in post. This might fit Mackenzie's skill set better. For instance the Sony X70 has a 29 to 348mm range, but with 4K, you can do a 2x digital zoom for an HD output with no loss. That makes it effectively 29 to 696mm. For a given shot, you can shoot twice as wide as you would expect to need and re-frame later. This is especially helpful when you don't know exactly where the equipment will move next.

The one consideration with 4K is that you'll need lots of storage media and a powerful computer to work with it. That said, all of the popular editing systems support it. And if you're doing an HD output, you don't necessarily need a 4K monitor or video card.

Note that the cameras listed above are low-end pro (prosumer) cams that will have good quality without too much video compression as well as record good audio. You can find consumer cams with similar specs on the surface, but the video compression will be higher and the audio won't be as clean. In addition, you can plug a pro mic into these cameras, while you would need extra equipment to add a pro mic to consumer models.

Jon

Thank you for the reply and all the information !

Good information on the tripod and about Vegas Pro. You raise some good points about camera reach, and I would be willing to bet that sometimes we may not be able to get as close as we might want. Besides wanting to "future proof" ourselves, another reason for my considering 4K was as you say the things you can do in post, which indeed may fit his skill set better.

I will be buying a new computer robust enough to do the video editing, and will invest in storage as well, for archives and as a safe guard.

Once again, thank you.

Michael
,

Lightworks has a clean and simple interface and it can be operated in a number of ways. Generally it's easier to learn for those users not carrying any baggage from other NLEs. It really depends on what he wants to do, you can shoot and then upload to Youtube and Vimeo for free, For the all the other export options you need the Pro version.

Brian

Thank you for the information. I had not heard of Lightworks. I will have to research it, and see if it would fill our needs.

Thanks,

Michael

Don't believe what they are telling you Michael, Edius 8 is the best NLE and I know because I am using it.
Just kidding, not about Edius but about not believing the others. :) Your choice in a NLE is even more difficult then choosing a camera, it will be very difficult to switch if you don't like a NLE, when I switched from Premiere to Edius it was like starting all over and even the most simple tasks required me to go to the Edius forum for advice. For your son that might be an almost impossible task so I would not take that choice very lightly. Once you make a choice you will have to stick with it.

Noa

Thank you as always. You are right about having to live with it (for a while at least). I will be very deliberate, and make the best choice I can.

All of you here have given me a lot of really good information, (it is a lot to internalize), and made me think of things I may have not thought hard enough about (being consumed primarily about a camera). I cannot express my appreciation strongly enough.

Thank you


Michael

Before more NLE recommendations, we should learn, 1) which OS he uses, and 2) what other creative programs is he comfortable with? (In other words, not just games and content sites but things like Word, Excel, Paint, Music sequencers... stuff that is user-input driven.)

Jon

Thanks for the post. Mackenzie has used both Apple and Windows OS, with windows being used most often, and he has used some creative programs with both. I do have a question though. Are some brands of cameras "easier" to use on certain editing platforms ? I know that with the software being discussed all the footage that Mackenzie shoots will likely pose little problem, but I have heard about having to transcode (I think this is the right term) footage so that it can used in a particular editing suite. I would like to eliminate or at least drastically reduce that process for obvious reasons if possible.


Thank You.

Michael

As a user of Vegas Pro (10, 11 and now at V13), I have no real complaints re Vegas.

I experienced crashes with 10, 11 but very very few with 13.

Part of the reason that 13 works for me may be that I learned to do things a certain way in Vegas and have stuck to that way.

My problem is I only use the parts of Vegas that I need and I have no experience with other NLEs.

My take is that Vegas a very complex program, similar to the 1,000,000 line software products my company manufactures for healthcare, law enforcement and manufacturing.

The Vegas User Interface seems to be reasonably friendly.

You don't want to mess around with NLEs - people in the video space spend a lot of time and money backing up raw data off the camera and backing up the usually proprietary output from NLEs.

Over time, chances are if you ever need to go to backup, raw formats that are in common use today will be readable (assuming the media is), but if your NLE vendor has gone out of business, the remaining vendor NLEs may or may not be able to read in your NLE files.

If you think about it, it's not unusual to spend many more hours editing than recording, so you would not want to get raw files from backup and then discover that you have to re-do all of the editing.

BTW

Some of the folks I have talked to about getting data off their cameras do not copy the entire data structure. They only copy the files. It's my understanding this can lead to problems.

I remove an SD, insert it in a USB reader and then go to the Windows (in my case) file directory, make sure the drive is recognized, make a new folder with the project name + date, then copy the ENTIRE directory from the USB drive.

I never erase anything on the SDs when they are sitting in USB reader - I go back to the camera and do deletes or reformatting there.

I have been following this post from the beginning but just went through it all again. Not quite the same issue but I have my wife shoot the closeups for me when I shoot theatre and she may have some of the same issues!!. Tell me what to do and how but will get very upset if things do not work exactly as described !! She uses a Sony AX100 on a Sachtler ACE tripod with LANC remote. The camera is setup in auto exposure ( but with a gain limit and fixed shutter speed ) with AE shift and she looks at the zebras to turn AE shift wheel to get rid of them. ( I have preset the zebra level and she knows that if it is on a white shirt she can ignore ) She uses manual touch spot focus to set focus ( touch the thing I want in focus ). I also have taught her composing to the grid that can be set on the LCD. Standard rule of thirds. Her closeups make all the difference to my productions. She has got very good at shooting and has really no idea how the camera is setup.

So to cameras I think Noa suggested the DVX200 in an earlier post a camera that could do this in much the same way and still be a full pro camera when needed. I expect the AG-UX180 may also work closer to the way I get my wife's AX100 and may have better touch responses than the DVX200. I am waiting to see what the full specs are too.

For NLE's you may want to look at Vegas Movie Studio Platinum. It will do everything a beginner would want , is not expensive and has the same user interface as the full Vegas if he decides to move up into the more elaborate editors. Though the real difference with Movie Studio to Vegas Pro is just more stuff !!! Also Movie Studio has a few things that Vegas Pro does not have !!

I too normally edit with EDIUS 8 WG but also have Vegas ( full and Studio versions over many years ) and ADOBE CS6. For a single track edit, Vegas ( or Vegas Movie Studio ) will operate real easy and sliding clips over one another will automatically dissolve the video and audio.Nice and easy for a beginner to do and understand. Yet the timeline is just like any of the pro NLE's.


Ron Evans

Ron

Thank for this reply and all that it contained.. You and everyone else can believe that when I start teaching Mackenzie the finer points of using his camera, I will be seeking opinions about what I am doing, and insights about what I could be doing differently.

I too am curious about the Panasonic UX 180. I know that it has a 20X zoom lens which may aid in longer shots, and I think it is supposed to have a 1" sensor. Last that I heard it is due out in November. I did not want to wait that long, but it may be worth it if I do.

I appreciate your thoughts and insight on Vegas Movie Studio and Vegas Pro.

Thank you very much!

Michael

As a user of Vegas Pro (10, 11 and now at V13), I have no real complaints re Vegas.

I experienced crashes with 10, 11 but very very few with 13.

Part of the reason that 13 works for me may be that I learned to do things a certain way in Vegas and have stuck to that way.

My problem is I only use the parts of Vegas that I need and I have no experience with other NLEs.

My take is that Vegas a very complex program, similar to the 1,000,000 line software products my company manufactures for healthcare, law enforcement and manufacturing.

The Vegas User Interface seems to be reasonably friendly.

You don't want to mess around with NLEs - people in the video space spend a lot of time and money backing up raw data off the camera and backing up the usually proprietary output from NLEs.

Over time, chances are if you ever need to go to backup, raw formats that are in common use today will be readable (assuming the media is), but if your NLE vendor has gone out of business, the remaining vendor NLEs may or may not be able to read in your NLE files.

If you think about it, it's not unusual to spend many more hours editing than recording, so you would not want to get raw files from backup and then discover that you have to re-do all of the editing.

BTW

Some of the folks I have talked to about getting data off their cameras do not copy the entire data structure. They only copy the files. It's my understanding this can lead to problems.

I remove an SD, insert it in a USB reader and then go to the Windows (in my case) file directory, make sure the drive is recognized, make a new folder with the project name + date, then copy the ENTIRE directory from the USB drive.

I never erase anything on the SDs when they are sitting in USB reader - I go back to the camera and do deletes or reformatting there.

Walter

Thank you for this post and all the information. You raise a lot of good points that I will have to learn more about.

Thanks,

Michael

Michael, next to the "Quote" button, you can find a button with a " and a + on it. This will allow you to select several posts that you want to quote, all in the same response.

Mike

Thanks, I thought that was what it was for, and when the occasion has need for it, I will use it. The fact that so many people with so much information have responded to my initial post has been very gratifying and deeply appreciated. The least I can do in some small way is to respectfully address each post to the members who have so gratuitously shared their thoughts, wisdom, and knowledge with me. I will not always do it this way, but for now, it is what my conscience dictates.

Michael

Are some brands of cameras "easier" to use on certain editing platforms ? I know that with the software being discussed all the footage that Mackenzie shoots will likely pose little problem, but I have heard about having to transcode (I think this is the right term) footage so that it can used in a particular editing suite. I would like to eliminate or at least drastically reduce that process for obvious reasons if possible.l

Highly compressed video codecs can cause issues, especially on less powerful computers. I suspect you'll have work out how your son views the world and see which N:E has a logic that fits in with that. Professional NLEs aren't the easiest software to learn and can involve a bit of setting for each project, although if you're only using the same camera it should be less of an issue.

Brian

Thank you for the reply. I would say that right now I am leaning toward a Windows OS, mainly because that is what we have at home, and though he does have experience on ,Apple,he is most familiar with Windows.

The caveat is of course when I begin to delve deeper into editing software, and as you say, one is a better fit for him than another. Should be fun trying to figure that out.

Thanks

Michael

Given Windows, I recommend trying out VEGAS Movie Studio 13 Platinum for $79. You might consider stepping up to VEGAS Movie Studio 13 Suite for $139. Frankly, I don't think that the extra plug ins would be worthwhile, but the tutorial DVD might be invaluable.

Video programs of VEGAS Movie Studio family in comparison (http://www.vegascreativesoftware.com/us/vegas-movie-studio-product-comparison/)

One key point: Vegas Movie Studio includes Simple Edit Mode and Expanded Edit Mode. I strongly advocate going straight to Expanded Edit Mode. My wife bought VMS and started working in Simple Edit Mode. She found that things happened without explanation and that some fairly basic tools were not available. In other words, in Expanded Edit Mode, one feels like their hand is directly on the tiller. In Simple Edit Mode, it's like you're asking somebody else to do things, they do some stuff on their own and sometimes have a poor grasp of what you're saying.

"Simple" might be good for somebody slapping something up on YouTube, but "Expanded" is much better for learning and understanding how things work.

Besides, if you ever upgrade to Vegas Pro, everything will fall to hand.

As I wrote earlier, Vegas is quite true to Windows conventions, so a lot of the actions are intuitive. For instance, most everything supports right-click, so you point the mouse at the thing you're interested in, right click, and immediately see the options available to you. There are many shortcuts available that speed up editing with just a keyboard and mouse, but it's not necessary to learn any shortcuts. There are always ways to do things with pointing and clicking. I own a ShuttlePro controller, but I never use it. Keyboard and mouse are adequate, and if he can learn a handful of shortcuts, he can potentially get really quick at it.

Anyway, for $79 or $139, it's worth a shot. From there, you could always punt and try another editor. Or, if he likes it and needs more features, you can upgrade to Pro.

Another nice thing about Vegas is that it's quite format independent.

In some NLE's you need to configure the format of the project and/or timeline up front to get the expected behavior. In Vegas, you can drop content of many different formats on the various timelines and they are simply handled and intermixed without requiring any technical decisions from the editor.

There is a project format that affects how the content is presented during the editing process. In Vegas, when you drop the first piece of content into the project, it asks if you would like the new project to have the same properties as this content. Click "Yes" and all of the technical decisions are made correctly for you. If for some reason, you prefer different project properties, you can change it at any time without losing any of your work. I don't expect this to be the case for you. Just drop in the first video, click "Yes" and start editing.

Years ago, when editing DSLR HD video, the software decoders were sluggish. I would manually transcode the clips before editing to get a snappier response. These days, that's no longer necessary. Computers are faster, decoding software is more efficient, and in many cases the GPUs in the video card are used to speed things up.

That's one thing to study: Check if your target editing software is optimized to work with the ATI or nVidia cards and see which cards offer the best acceleration for the money. This can be at least as important as having a fast processor and lots of RAM.

Here's some information on chosing a machine for Vegas:
https://www.moviestudiozen.com/free-tutorials/computers-and-video-editing/38-choosing-the-best-computer-system-for-vegas-movie-studio-a-vegas-pro-10-video-editing

The next place where formats matter is the output. At this point, one needs to make technical decisions. Is this for a DVD or Blu-ray? Will it be uploaded to the web? Do you want HD or UHD? What aspect ratio do you need? After you test things out and determine your workflow, it's quite straightforward. Save any custom settings prior to rendering and the next time you render, it will use the same settings that you used before.

So in other words:
1) Just drop your media files into the timelines and don't worry about formats.
2) Click "Yes" when you drop the first video onto the timeline. (Make sure to drop a video from your camera first, rather than some randomly downloaded clip.)
3) Render using the default settings from your previous render.

And with a powerful computer with a well-matched graphics card, you'll get great performance without transcoding.

Oh, another feature of Vegas is that it will automatically reduce the resolution or framerate to the editing monitor when you've overtaxed the system. That means that things still play in real time while editing, rather than stall (for the most part, anyway.) Just leave the monitor settings in "auto" and it handles the edit monitor quality for you. This lets one edit away without having to pre-render things. The only time one needs to pre-render is when you absolutely must see the result at full resolution and frame rate. Unless the edit is highly technical, this isn't really needed. Just have faith that the final render will show all the pixels and frames.

Another thought for editing: It can be nice to have two monitors. One monitor shows the controls while the other shows full screen video.

In Vegas, this is quite easy to set up. (I've used After Effects for years and still can't figure out how to configure the video without a border.) Once the setup is done, just click the monitor icon and the video will show full screen on the second monitor. (That said, I'm using Vegas Pro. I'm not sure if Studio supports this.)

Vegas doesn't require a second monitor. It allows an area of the editing surface to show the editing result.Personally, I often just use the smaller window. However, when you want to see details, or how big the text will look, the larger monitor is excellent. The big advantage, however, is when you collaborate. Having a second monitor allows friends, colleagues, and onlookers to see the video in progress. For you and your son working together, I think that this would be very rewarding. It might help open up his awareness towards sharing the video, rather than editing in his own little world.

In this situation, the main monitor can be of any resolution and quality. The video monitor, however, should have good quality, be 16x9 and have HD (or UHD) resolution. In my case, I use a 32-inch TV as my video monitor. That said, some TVs have strange pixel structures that look bad up close or with computer text. I'm using a "gaming TV" that handles computer graphics cleanly.

Magix bought Vegas earlier this year and still have the offer to buy Vegas 13 and get Vegas 14 free. Offer is available to end of August. Exclusive welcome offer (http://www.magix.com/?id=22799&L=52&C=36&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=mail&utm_campaign=CA_vcs_intro3&utm_term=vegasupg&utm_content=vegas14). This is the full version rather than Movie Studio too and comes with the full version of DVD Architect 6.0 for DVD and Bluray authoring. I was on Vegas 12 and have taken this offer as it is a good deal. Even if you do this and get Studio for $79 the total is a lot less than almost all the other NLE's you may look at and a really good DVD authoring package.

I use EDIUS 8 WG for video most of the time but always use Vegas for audio and DVDArchitect for disc authoring. As Jon has said it is easy to work with and can be used simply or as complicated as you wish.

Ron Evans

There are a number of NLE options available, just to show the differences, here's a Vegas user and his early experience with Lightworks. There are quicker ways of working with Lightworks than the methods he's using, but it does reveal the differences between NLEs, All NLEs have advantages and disadvantages, so it's a matter checking them out, although cost may be a factor with some.

Sony Vegas versus Lightworks - My Experience - YouTube