You need to think from a autistic persons perspective what many here don't do, this means you have to take another approach and your order of importance might not apply in exactly that order.

Noa, I agree with you about thinking from the autistic point of view... change is usually hard for them because they tend to be "rules" based. If they have a rule, they will follow it. When they don't have a rule, they become confused. Best example, if you tell someone with Aspergers to go sit down in a room full of chairs and couches, they may just stand there and look around the room. If you are specific, "Go sit in the red chair", they know exactly what to do. So yes, changing equipment may be problematic.

I do agree with Karl on the order of importance. You are selling a story line, how you get there isn't necessarily dependent on the camera. You can do a lot with good a story and audio. The listeners imagination will supply the visuals.

I do agree with Karl on the order of importance as well, but that is when I would apply to myself, only Michael knows his son best and how he reacts to change (I know from what my daugther tells me that some of her autistic children in her class can completely lock up and react very violently if they cannot deal with a change) but if I had to make a change on Karl's list I put the camera first and choose one that has a design and featureset that is common among these semi-professional camera's and then in the future stick with these type of camera's. If he would use an iphone to teach his son to film and after a year give him a professional camera it would probably take him more time to unteach why he cannot use the lcd screen anymore to change settings, I feel he will be best served with a good camera from the start so that after a while when his son masters the camera Michael can focus more on storytelling.

We have a member on this board with Aspergers, Jack Zhang, you should PM him.

Edit: My 1,000th post! After merely 10 years! :-)

Hey Gentleman,

Here is my take on the camera choice thing. First, in an ordinary situation my view is exactly like Mike Watson's. I tell the average beginner the same thing. Learn to shoot first, then worry about what camera to invest in. This is not an ordinary situation. I know little about Autism. So I am listening to Michael. It may seem crazy to us that a rookie would invest in something like an FS5 to start with. We might say "they are in over their head, why complicate things?” Michael has repeatedly said Mackenzie learns through different processes than we do and finds change difficult. So no matter what they choose I have to honor Michael’s judgement.

I am going to try and explain a little bit of what I do know about how our minds and bodies work. I am going to reference firearms. I am in no way making any kind of a political statement so please don’t go there. You can argue my point, but I will not off get off track and enter a firearms debate.

Shooting with a firearm has much in common with shooting with a video camera. A video guy might make the statement “The truck was rolling away from me and I was about to miss the shot but my finger instinctively found the iris wheel and cranked it down. That saved the shot.” That is an erroneous statement. There is nothing in your DNA or brain that makes shooting with a video camera “instinctual”.

When you meet a person for the first time, you look into their eyes and shake their hand you might instinctively decide if they are a good or bad person. That is instinct. A video camera is an inanimate object and there is nothing instinctual about it. In tactical/competitive firearms training what they know and pound into you is that your finger found the iris wheel because of something YOU developed called muscle memory. Muscle memory is something WE develop based on repetitive training, not instinct.

In the world of firearms training (and reality) they know that in a high stress situation the first thing to go is our fine motor skills. High stress situations are also often high speed situations. Our brains and hands do not handle these situations instinctively. The body and brain can revert to what it does know and has learned through repetitive training. We all know the more you train at something the better you are at it. The winner of a gunfight is often determined by the training level of each participant. The more training they have the better and faster they are able to handle their firearm through muscle memory, not instinct.

Shooting video can be stressful (don’t go crazy, I am not saying it is life or death). Let’s say “The truck was rolling away and I was about to miss the shot”. That is going to create some level of stress for all of us. Those of us that can find the iris wheel without looking for it might get the shot. Those that have to look for it will probably miss it. Muscle memory will make the difference.

Some of us like Noa, who buys a new camera every other week (satire, but almost true) can relearn and retrain his muscle memory very quickly. For others (ME) it might take longer. In both cases it takes repetitive training.

What I keep hearing Michael saying is Mackenzie has his own way of learning and training. He also says he does not modify his learned experiences easily. So therefore, I see why there is nothing wrong with starting with an FS5 (or whatever he chooses). He can put it on auto (where it will do a fine job) and introduce more complex features later. It is a financial risk not a training risk.

I did not surmise this, Michael has been saying it from the start. He knows his son ;-) All I did was write a lengthy post!

Kind Regards,

Steve

Michael, how far are you from NYC?

With B&H and Adorama there, you might consider a field trip with MacKenzie to allow him to tray different cameras.

Michael,

Here is another suggestion about how this board works. You mentioned shotgun mics. You have common misconceptions about how they work. But I will get to that, first the board.

DVINFO.net is an amazing place. It may not have the huge number of participants other forums have but that is part of its magic. The level of talent, dedication, and cooperativeness here is incredible.

This single thread is not going to get you all of the help you need. This is what I would suggest:

Double posting the same info in more than one section is highly frowned upon. The audio forum however can be a fantastic resource for you. There are true audio specialists that hang out there that are always willing to help the sincere poster. A couple of them are a little crusty but don’t get discouraged ;-)

You can introduce yourself and your situation there and then post a link to this thread and say this is where you gave detailed information about your situation. Then ask your audio questions in that new thread you started. The response may blow you away. Don’t be afraid to reach out to different sections. Some guys just monitor their own specialty section.

I am NOT a wrangler. I think what I said follows protocol. If not someone please correct me.

Quick shotgun answer: Shotgun mics do not reach out and collect far away sound. That is the common misconception. Distance vs pick up ability is a function of sensitivity, regardless of pick up pattern. With all directional mics the area of rejection is a soft wall, not a hard one. That means even with a shotgun mic if you are speaking over Mackenzie's shoulder it is probably going to pick up your voice.

Kind Regards,

Steve

You should consult a licensed tax advisor with your tax questions. In a legitimate business environment, business expenses can be written off. You can depreciate assets instead of writing them off.

You are really putting the cart ahead of the horse here. Start small. Grow.

The same advice I give to indy filmmakers applies to you. Take whatever you have - your cell phone, your point & shoot camera, your DSLR - and go out and make a film. Make 10. Make 100. When you cannot possibly move forward without a tool, buy it. Do not buy everything you need up front. First, you never get to the end of the list if things you "need", and second, you have no idea what you'll need until you make 1 or 10 or 100 films. I would gladly tell you what you need, except I need vastly different things than you. If you buy everything I need, you'll have all the wrong stuff.

Tomorrow, take your cell phone and your kid and go out and take video of a construction site. Take it home and edit it. Do not shoot for 8 hours or 12 hours, shoot for 15 or 30 minutes. Do this every day, or several times a week. In a month, show us what you've got and come back with a list of complaints about your footage. We'll help you move forward.

Mike,

Thank you for the reply. Just thought I would ask people who already do this for a living

Michael

I will echo a couple of the items Mike and Karl have posted.

I, too, took a year to research cameras, mics and lights before I made my purchases. I spent about $10,000 before I even shot a minute of tape. One year later, I realized I could do everything I was doing with less expensive equipment and spent less than $1,000 doing it. Lessons learned.

After ten years, I purchased a new flash memory based camera to replace my old tape based camera. That was $4,000. Why? because over the ten years, I have expanded the types of things I shoot, and I now need the camera with more bells and whistles.

Having said that, along the way, a couple years ago, I purchased a Canon HF R300 for $250. It is a small handheld, consumer camcorder, but most importantly, it has a microphone input and a headphone output as well as a 50x optical zoom. This is my "travel cam". Combined with small LED lights on monopods, a tripod for the camcorder and a small shotgun and battery powered lavelier mic, I have a setup that I can take on location and set up in a matter of minutes. I used it two weeks ago for two interviews. The first included shots lakeside and in a motor boat. The second was in a museum. The quality is excellent!

As has been said, the movie The Blair Witch Project proved that audio is more important than video. Spend you money on a good microphone! If you cannot hear the sounds you want to hear, all the high definition video is useless.

I still use the bigger camcorder, but it is better suited for studio use when I have multiple interviews.

Ed,

Thank you for the reply. You and Karl will not be alone. It will probably take meas long, maybe even longer to buy the camera(s). I am just that way. It took me 8 months to decide which television I was going to get (one of the last Panasonic Plasma screens, and took me over a year to decide on my car.

Through my reading and research, I am beginning to understand what you guys mean about the audio.

Thanks,

Michael

Hey Gentleman,

Here is my take on the camera choice thing. First, in an ordinary situation my view is exactly like Mike Watson's. I tell the average beginner the same thing. Learn to shoot first, then worry about what camera to invest in. This is not an ordinary situation. I know little about Autism. So I am listening to Michael. It may seem crazy to us that a rookie would invest in something like an FS5 to start with. We might say "they are in over their head, why complicate things?” Michael has repeatedly said Mackenzie learns through different processes than we do and finds change difficult. So no matter what they choose I have to honor Michael’s judgement.

I am going to try and explain a little bit of what I do know about how our minds and bodies work. I am going to reference firearms. I am in no way making any kind of a political statement so please don’t go there. You can argue my point, but I will not off get off track and enter a firearms debate.

Shooting with a firearm has much in common with shooting with a video camera. A video guy might make the statement “The truck was rolling away from me and I was about to miss the shot but my finger instinctively found the iris wheel and cranked it down. That saved the shot.” That is an erroneous statement. There is nothing in your DNA or brain that makes shooting with a video camera “instinctual”.

When you meet a person for the first time, you look into their eyes and shake their hand you might instinctively decide if they are a good or bad person. That is instinct. A video camera is an inanimate object and there is nothing instinctual about it. In tactical/competitive firearms training what they know and pound into you is that your finger found the iris wheel because of something YOU developed called muscle memory. Muscle memory is something WE develop based on repetitive training, not instinct.

In the world of firearms training (and reality) they know that in a high stress situation the first thing to go is our fine motor skills. High stress situations are also often high speed situations. Our brains and hands do not handle these situations instinctively. The body and brain can revert to what it does know and has learned through repetitive training. We all know the more you train at something the better you are at it. The winner of a gunfight is often determined by the training level of each participant. The more training they have the better and faster they are able to handle their firearm through muscle memory, not instinct.

Shooting video can be stressful (don’t go crazy, I am not saying it is life or death). Let’s say “The truck was rolling away and I was about to miss the shot”. That is going to create some level of stress for all of us. Those of us that can find the iris wheel without looking for it might get the shot. Those that have to look for it will probably miss it. Muscle memory will make the difference.

Some of us like Noa, who buys a new camera every other week (satire, but almost true) can relearn and retrain his muscle memory very quickly. For others (ME) it might take longer. In both cases it takes repetitive training.

What I keep hearing Michael saying is Mackenzie has his own way of learning and training. He also says he does not modify his learned experiences easily. So therefore, I see why there is nothing wrong with starting with an FS5 (or whatever he chooses). He can put it on auto (where it will do a fine job) and introduce more complex features later. It is a financial risk not a training risk.

I did not surmise this, Michael has been saying it from the start. He knows his son ;-) All I did was write a lengthy post!

Kind Regards,

Steve

Steve,

You, Mike, Noa, Karl, and Ed made some good and valid points in the earlier posts on this page.

Noa, Ed, and Steve, You guys summed up things pretty well. Behavior wise, Mackenzie is and has been, ,for a number of years, in a very good place. My job is to keep it there, and I do that in many ways, one of which is the ordeal with this camera. Noa, I am sure your daughter uses behavior modification (even though she may not call it that) with her students. Most of these kids (probably 95%) my son included rely on predictability and things being the same. Changes in the routine have to be made slowly and in small steps (especially when they are younger).. I can only use Mackenzie as an example, but when he had behavior issues in the past, it almost always was a combination of a break in his routine and or frustration either because he could not make his needs/desires known (Knew what he wanted, just couldn't figure out out to express it), or did not understand what he was being asked or told to do.

Steve your use of the term muscle memory is I think, appropriate

Thank you, and really all of you, for the consideration you have been giving to me. It really means a lot

Michael

Michael, how far are you from NYC?

With B&H and Adorama there, you might consider a field trip with MacKenzie to allow him to tray different cameras.


Ed,

I live a little over an hour from the city. Chris had mentioned in an earlier post that I should try that, and I told someone here that I might go and "graze" for a while. I am hoping at some point to narrow my choices down to two or three, and decide from there. It would be a good field trip though. The last time Mackenzie and I were in the city, we saw Bob Seger at MSG- good show.

Thanks,

Michael

Michael,

Here is another suggestion about how this board works. You mentioned shotgun mics. You have common misconceptions about how they work. But I will get to that, first the board.

DVINFO.net is an amazing place. It may not have the huge number of participants other forums have but that is part of its magic. The level of talent, dedication, and cooperativeness here is incredible.

This single thread is not going to get you all of the help you need. This is what I would suggest:

Double posting the same info in more than one section is highly frowned upon. The audio forum however can be a fantastic resource for you. There are true audio specialists that hang out there that are always willing to help the sincere poster. A couple of them are a little crusty but don’t get discouraged ;-)

You can introduce yourself and your situation there and then post a link to this thread and say this is where you gave detailed information about your situation. Then ask your audio questions in that new thread you started. The response may blow you away. Don’t be afraid to reach out to different sections. Some guys just monitor their own specialty section.

I am NOT a wrangler. I think what I said follows protocol. If not someone please correct me.

Quick shotgun answer: Shotgun mics do not reach out and collect far away sound. That is the common misconception. Distance vs pick up ability is a function of sensitivity, regardless of pick up pattern. With all directional mics the area of rejection is a soft wall, not a hard one. That means even with a shotgun mic if you are speaking over Mackenzie's shoulder it is probably going to pick up your voice.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Steve,

Thank you for the advice about audio. I will follow your lead and introduce myself to that section of the forum.

Thanks,

Michael

Hi Everyone:

With some of the discussion that has taken place here, I have been continuing my research, and have pretty much decided that, if I am going to do this, then a single lens camera is where I should be looking. I know it is not much, and only eliminates 2 cameras from my list, but it is a start. I am most curious what the new Panasonic UX 180 and UX 90 will be like when they come out this fall.

Thanks,

Michael

Michael, if you knew for a fact that any gear purchases you made would bring in zero dollars of revenue over the next five years, how much would you still be willing to spend on gear?

Gary,

Thanks for the question. It is a hypothetical that in a similar form I have asked myself. My answer is the same as before your asked this important question. In my opening post, I stated that I was looking for a life and a career for my son. I still stand by that, even though the learning and training process will take a while (no one, not even me knows how long), and only after that can thoughts be turned to some type of production. I am prepared, in answer to your question, for it to take five years if it has to. My son is only 24, far too young to sing " turn out the lights, the party's over". I have a model and plan that I think will work. I am pretty confident in my teaching abilities, and in my ability to learn what I have to learn to do that teaching. If I am able to find a mentor, that will shorten the learning curve. We will never be as skilled as someone who has gone to film school, or received similar training, but do not sell us short. We may end up not being all that bad. Time will tell.


Michael

Michael, if you knew for a fact that any gear purchases you made would bring in zero dollars of revenue over the next five years, how much would you still be willing to spend on gear?


Gary,

I did not really answer your question did I? If I can, I want technology if it is possible to be an aid in this endeavor. That means that if I have to spend $3000-$5000, or more on a camera I will do so if it is the best fit I can find for my son. The same philosophy goes for any and all other equipment that we/he might need.

I know that mindset is hard to understand so I will say this, Mackenzie went to a special school for children with Autism. For a good portion of those years (the early ones) I paid the tuition myself with no guarantees that it would make any difference ( slowly and surely it did), with only hope and hard work being the constants. Tuition per year was more than any college or university that I am aware of, more than Harvard, Stanford, Northwestern, etc..

I am not gloating, It is a tragedy that that type of effort has to be expended for a parent to help their child. In the end he made great gains, so how can I put a price on that. This business venture is the same (hopefully).

Michael

Can I reiterate, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, how little you should be concerned with learning videography, teaching it, your son learning it, what camera you buy, or how you compare to someone who's gone to film school...

But be quite concerned with your business model, what you will produce, how you will sell it, and whether anyone will pay for it.

I have 100% confidence that you and your son can learn to shoot. From a technical standpoint, there is a "full auto" setting on whatever camera you buy that will get you about 80% of where you need to go, and the rest of it (use a tripod, compose a shot) is not that hard to learn.

Hi Mike:

Tonight is one of those nights, of which there are many where sleep eludes me. Mike, thank you for your post. It is not yet set in concrete, but i do have a model, I have thought about potential customers, and distribution, advertising, in other words if Mackenzie can do this, then we are good to go. If he can not learn the camera, then it will go no where. I have done a market analysis, studied google analytics , there is/are customer bases. Whatever else I need to study, learn or cover, I am planning to do during Mackenzie's learning time with the camera. There will be no shoddy film, it will be the best we can make, or we will not do it.

I'm sort of glad that you seem to think the camera part may be a given. I hope you are right.

Thanks,
Michael

Hi Michael

I have been following this thread with interest. I think the necessarily general vagueness of your enquiries has been well addressed by good advice from caring members. I am not anywhere near as expert as any of them, but would like to add a couple of general comments that may help.

I shoot on a couple of Canon cameras that are very like the one Ed Roo mentioned. They have a microphone and headphone socket so I can capture better audio and monitor it. I have entered several of the DVC and UWOL contests with footage from these cameras. None of the feedback I received from those entries was to tell me the cameras technical abilities were substandard. These cameras are now seven years old and will do me until they break.

The point I am trying to make is that the construction and design of cameras these days uses fewer mechanical systems and moving parts, so there is so much less to wear out. A careful choice and caring use may well land you in excess of five years service life. Even HD footage will still look good in five years time, so my suggestion is choose the one that Mackenzie relates to most.

HTH

Tim

In my opening post, I stated that I was looking for a life and a career for my son. I still stand by that, even though the learning and training process will take a while (no one, not even me knows how long), and only after that can thoughts be turned to some type of production.

I understand that Michael, and that's my concern. By a "career", I assume you are looking at something he can do with video that will provide him an income that he can use to support himself? At least, that's what I assume when people use the word "career".

I am prepared, in answer to your question, for it to take five years if it has to. My son is only 24, far too young to sing " turn out the lights, the party's over". I have a model and plan that I think will work.

To be frank, you're not the first person to have this mysterious "model" of a way to make money via video that they are reluctant to share. And 100% of those I have come across have made no money from their "mysterious model" (two are still trying while having a main job on the side, the rest have finally given up and gone into a completely different career).

The problem is two fallacies. One, that your idea is so precious that merely speaking it aloud would unleash the hounds and strip it away from you as other people steal your idea and run with it. The truth is, no one cares. Until you start making money with it, then they will rip you off anyway (just take a look at every tech startup).

The second fallacy is that you know it can work. But you don't know. You are brand new to this area and so you don't know what you don't know. There may be glaring issues with your model that you are blind two, simply from lack of experience. I deal with this all the time, people with no idea what it takes to accomplish some goal, and they feel that sheer will power will win the day. That's a Hollywood trope. The most likely scenario is that your model is is something that barely deviates from the myriad of attempts people have tried to make money with already, and that haven't worked. And being specific about can help those who have experience to point out what, to them, is obvious problems with your idea.

I have thought about potential customers, and distribution, advertising... I have done a market analysis, studied google analytics , there is/are customer bases.

And this does nothing to dissuade me that your model is any better than anyone else. They have the same response, and yet ideas and products fail all the time, with even better information than you probably have access to.

We will never be as skilled as someone who has gone to film school, or received similar training, but do not sell us short. We may end up not being all that bad. Time will tell.

Well, I have dealt with some very unskilled film school graduates, and I have no issue with you taking the self-learning approach. I am a big fan, and feel that there's far too much emphasis on spending money for training when the best training is to go out and make something, fail, and learn from your mistakes. However, just because you are skilled does not mean you can make a career out of this. The skilled part really has no bearing if you are unable to utilize those skills in a way that strangers will want to give you money for.

I did not really answer your question did I? If I can, I want technology if it is possible to be an aid in this endeavor. That means that if I have to spend $3000-$5000, or more on a camera I will do so if it is the best fit I can find for my son. The same philosophy goes for any and all other equipment that we/he might need.

And that is the million dollar question. You were willing to spend untold amounts of money for the special school, and say you saw an improvement. But a career is different. You will have numbers that glare at you if they aren't adding up. A career allows you to be financially sufficient, and if not, then you'll really have to spin the results in order to make it a positive if a career is the ultimate end goal. You could spend $8000-$10000 (or more) over a period of ten years and be no closer to a career for your son than you currently are.

Take hope out of the equation. If you knew for a fact that would be the end result, would you still do what you are planning to do?

Ultimately, if you elect to maintain the secrecy of your building model, and if you're adverse to putting X amount of dollars into something that would have zero gains in a decade, then I would say to pick the cheapest gear you can so that you can avoid the sunk cost fallacy for as long as possible.

This thread proves just what an amazing community we have here.

I think I've read through most of the previous posts here and I realize this is mainly about what gear is appropriate (I find myself struggling with this at times). Lots of great resources in NYC with he big retailers but have you checked into your local public access tv station? You and your son might get some decent hands-on experience/instruction and there will likely be a volunteer or two (or more) willing to mentor your son. You may also have access to try some equipment before buying.

Here's a link to the Waterbury station About | Skye Cable XIII (http://skye13.com/about/)

-Reed

Gary Huff's caveats are worth taking note of.

My day job is management consulting and I meet people every day who are evolving business models across different industry areas.

The thing is there are many dimensions to most businesses. Perceived value of a product/service is what counts.

Each model has what Donald Rumsfeld plus a few others categorized into "known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns". Sounds silly, but it isn't.

Each initiative has risk and uncertainty and any model anyone makes needs close watching as things can change during implementation.

I have written 250+ blog articles on business management over the past few years - take a look at https://kwkeirstead.wordpress.com/

If you suffer from insomnia, my blog provides an instant remedy.

Hi Michael

I have been following this thread with interest. I think the necessarily general vagueness of your enquiries has been well addressed by good advice from caring members. I am not anywhere near as expert as any of them, but would like to add a couple of general comments that may help.

I shoot on a couple of Canon cameras that are very like the one Ed Roo mentioned. They have a microphone and headphone socket so I can capture better audio and monitor it. I have entered several of the DVC and UWOL contests with footage from these cameras. None of the feedback I received from those entries was to tell me the cameras technical abilities were substandard. These cameras are now seven years old and will do me until they break.

The point I am trying to make is that the construction and design of cameras these days uses fewer mechanical systems and moving parts, so there is so much less to wear out. A careful choice and caring use may well land you in excess of five years service life. Even HD footage will still look good in five years time, so my suggestion is choose the one that Mackenzie relates to most.

HTH

Tim

Tim,

Thank you for the reply.

Michael

This thread is now on page five and it is a great thread. The DVINFO community is coming together to assist someone who has asked for assistance. This forum at its best!

I am encouraging everyone to post. This thread has an unusual caviotte to it. I'll bet there are even many lurkers out there with knowledge of Autism reading this thread. If you do this would be a great time to jump in the water and join us. We don't bite (much).

This is not really my place to say it, but I will anyway, When posting please read what has already been said :-)

Kind Regards,

Steve

Also: Anytime is a great time to join DVINFO.net Everyone is always welcome here on the greatest forum on the internet!

I understand that Michael, and that's my concern. By a "career", I assume you are looking at something he can do with video that will provide him an income that he can use to support himself? At least, that's what I assume when people use the word "career".



To be frank, you're not the first person to have this mysterious "model" of a way to make money via video that they are reluctant to share. And 100% of those I have come across have made no money from their "mysterious model" (two are still trying while having a main job on the side, the rest have finally given up and gone into a completely different career).

The problem is two fallacies. One, that your idea is so precious that merely speaking it aloud would unleash the hounds and strip it away from you as other people steal your idea and run with it. The truth is, no one cares. Until you start making money with it, then they will rip you off anyway (just take a look at every tech startup).

The second fallacy is that you know it can work. But you don't know. You are brand new to this area and so you don't know what you don't know. There may be glaring issues with your model that you are blind two, simply from lack of experience. I deal with this all the time, people with no idea what it takes to accomplish some goal, and they feel that sheer will power will win the day. That's a Hollywood trope. The most likely scenario is that your model is is something that barely deviates from the myriad of attempts people have tried to make money with already, and that haven't worked. And being specific about can help those who have experience to point out what, to them, is obvious problems with your idea.



And this does nothing to dissuade me that your model is any better than anyone else. They have the same response, and yet ideas and products fail all the time, with even better information than you probably have access to.



Well, I have dealt with some very unskilled film school graduates, and I have no issue with you taking the self-learning approach. I am a big fan, and feel that there's far too much emphasis on spending money for training when the best training is to go out and make something, fail, and learn from your mistakes. However, just because you are skilled does not mean you can make a career out of this. The skilled part really has no bearing if you are unable to utilize those skills in a way that strangers will want to give you money for.



And that is the million dollar question. You were willing to spend untold amounts of money for the special school, and say you saw an improvement. But a career is different. You will have numbers that glare at you if they aren't adding up. A career allows you to be financially sufficient, and if not, then you'll really have to spin the results in order to make it a positive if a career is the ultimate end goal. You could spend $8000-$10000 (or more) over a period of ten years and be no closer to a career for your son than you currently are.

Take hope out of the equation. If you knew for a fact that would be the end result, would you still do what you are planning to do?

Ultimately, if you elect to maintain the secrecy of your building model, and if you're adverse to putting X amount of dollars into something that would have zero gains in a decade, then I would say to pick the cheapest gear you can so that you can avoid the sunk cost fallacy for as long as possible.


Gary,

Thanks for the reply, and the words of "encouragement" Wow. I have never said that I had a "mysterious model" for my business. In fact, I stated plainly in my first post that the the intention was for my son to film and ultimately sell his production. I have said that our filming will start with big rig trucks, but I had other thoughts as well.

I have done the research, which you seem to discount, that there is a viable market for this type of production. I have not reinvented the wheel here. I said I know it can work, simply because it already is..My intention is to get a little slice of the pie of the market that already exists,.

I admit that I do not know everything about starting and running a business, but I know enough and I guess you will just have to take my word on that, unless, as I said to someone else, you are implying a person needs an MBA from Harvard to successfully start and run a business.

With the exception of a couple of questions about taxes, I have never asked about anything but what this forum is about. I came here to seek guidance in helping my son to learn and use (to start with) a camera, I have explained many times why I have to go the route I am with the camera.

Bottom line is this, If Mackenzie can not do the filming, then the rest of it does not matter. If you wish to" critique" my (to you) lack of business knowledge further, I suggest you PM me, so this discussion on this thread can revert to topic. If you do that, I may be able to allay your concerns.

Michael

I have said that our filming will start with big rig trucks, but I had other thoughts as well.

What are your other thoughts? What kind of filming are you planning to do with "big rig trucks"? You have said it's not stock footage, is this a show? "Video emails"? What explicitly will this production be?

This thread proves just what an amazing community we have here.

I think I've read through most of the previous posts here and I realize this is mainly about what gear is appropriate (I find myself struggling with this at times). Lots of great resources in NYC with he big retailers but have you checked into your local public access tv station? You and your son might get some decent hands-on experience/instruction and there will likely be a volunteer or two (or more) willing to mentor your son. You may also have access to try some equipment before buying.

Here's a link to the Waterbury station About | Skye Cable XIII (http://skye13.com/about/)

-Reed
Reed,

Thank you for the reply. I know it would make things a lot easier if I had a mentor. My initial thoughts as I have said was to start with a video club..It appears that there are no video clubs in my immediate area. I believe either Steve or Ed suggested as you have that I should expand my search for a mentor further a field, to include collages, universities, and television stations, which I intend to do.

You are right, this is an amazing community. Thanks again for the reply.

Michael

One thing I've learned is that video is a "people" business. That can be tough for somebody with autism (or Asperger's, which I'm more familiar with.)

Some of the people aspects are:
1) marketing
2) negotiating the deal
3) understanding client requirements
4) getting a team together for audio, lighting, post, and so on.
5) dealing with things that didn't meet expectations

And then there's the issue of making videos with the right emotional connection, mood, message, etc. The difference between an authentic feeling video and something that "off" can be amazingly subtle.

If there are interviews involved, one needs to play therapist sometimes in order to coax a good story and delivery from the subject. This requires a real confidence and mastery to do well.

The filming part is relatively simple. One can bolt a GoPro on a moving object, make sure the battery is charged and the memory formatted, hit REC and go. Technically, that's easy. It's the artistic part that makes the difference.

Quick story: I once met a guy with a music composition degree who made a living baking pizzas. He came across as super depressed. A real downer. For all I know, he was the greatest composer on the planet. But it was clear that he lacked the salesmanship and people skills to get highly competitive film scoring jobs, let alone a commission with a symphony orchestra. Frankly, his instructors had failed him as a career in composing is about far more than just notes.

How about video effects work? Can your son learn some tricks in After Effects?

If you go to the NAB trade show, you'll see that it has a split personality. Central Hall has cameras, lighting, and production equipment and it's bright and full of extroverts. People are roaming, cameras and mics in hand. South Hall, on the other hand, has post production tools. It's dark and introverts sit and watch presentations of experts operating software.

There are video effects jobs like, "remove that telephone poll from the next 1000 frames of video and replace it with a realistic background." It can be mind-numbing, solitary work. Of course, one needs to develop the technical skills to make it happen. That said, something like this would suit my nephews with Asperger's to a tee. They do better with computer screens than with people. And they can obsess for hours on closed tasks. That said, I have no idea if this would suit your son.

In any case, I really respect your efforts and wish you and your son the best success.

Hey Everyone.

I know that I have not decided on a camera yet, but let us assume that it is going to be a fixed lens type. Let us further say that we have progressed to turning it on and used it in "auto" mode. As I teach Mackenzie in this hypothetical, where should I start ? What is the first thing you guys learned ? I need to approach this carefully, and if possible teach things in a sequence, learning one aspect of the camera before moving on to another. I know it all is interactive, and meshes together to form a whole, but at first, given his learning style I probably need to take it a piece at a time. He may surprise me, (he frequently does), but in advance planning for this step, the breaking down of the operation of the camera into small steps seems like where I will start.

Thanks

Michael

Just go out and shoot, the questions will start to come after that.

One thing I've learned is that video is a "people" business. That can be tough for somebody with autism (or Asperger's, which I'm more familiar with.)

Some of the people aspects are:
1) marketing
2) negotiating the deal
3) understanding client requirements
4) getting a team together for audio, lighting, post, and so on.
5) dealing with things that didn't meet expectations

And then there's the issue of making videos with the right emotional connection, mood, message, etc. The difference between an authentic feeling video and something that "off" can be amazingly subtle.

If there are interviews involved, one needs to play therapist sometimes in order to coax a good story and delivery from the subject. This requires a real confidence and mastery to do well.

The filming part is relatively simple. One can bolt a GoPro on a moving object, make sure the battery is charged and the memory formatted, hit REC and go. Technically, that's easy. It's the artistic part that makes the difference.

Quick story: I once met a guy with a music composition degree who made a living baking pizzas. He came across as super depressed. A real downer. For all I know, he was the greatest composer on the planet. But it was clear that he lacked the salesmanship and people skills to get highly competitive film scoring jobs, let alone a commission with a symphony orchestra. Frankly, his instructors had failed him as a career in composing is about far more than just notes.

How about video effects work? Can your son learn some tricks in After Effects?

If you go to the NAB trade show, you'll see that it has a split personality. Central Hall has cameras, lighting, and production equipment and it's bright and full of extroverts. People are roaming, cameras and mics in hand. South Hall, on the other hand, has post production tools. It's dark and introverts sit and watch presentations of experts operating software.

There are video effects jobs like, "remove that telephone poll from the next 1000 frames of video and replace it with a realistic background." It can be mind-numbing, solitary work. Of course, one needs to develop the technical skills to make it happen. That said, something like this would suit my nephews with Asperger's to a tee. They do better with computer screens than with people. And they can obsess for hours on closed tasks. That said, I have no idea if this would suit your son.

In any case, I really respect your efforts and wish you and your son the best success.

Jon,

Thanks for the reply. Mackenzie is not a people person. That is why (beyond the interest that he has), we will be filming things like trucks, construction equipment, ships, planes, trains, etc. not really much of a story there except for filming them doing what they do.

Once he learns the technical details of editing, the work itself will appeal to him. As with your nephew, tedious, repetitive, computer work is something Mackenzie could do all day long.

Once again, thank you for the reply.

Michael

This is what I do when I am not getting payed to shoot: https://vimeo.com/album/2256730, I just pick a random subject, go out and just have fun and shoot and usually edit it the same day. Films like this have been my learningschool for all these years, I can experiment as much as I want and more important, make mistakes which I can use to learn from (or in your case, post work here and ask for constructive feedback), that experience I take with me on my payed shoots.

Just go out and shoot, the questions will start to come after that.

Thanks Noa, I am sure that is sound advice, but with Mackenzie, I need to lesson plan and provide structure. I know I am asking you, and everyone else to think outside the box, but everything has to be broken up into small steps to be effectively taught and mastered, and the goal here is to learn a camera and it's use. It has been that way with tooth brushing, shower taking, etc, the difference this time is learning a camera. Think of it this way, in order to learn to add and subtract, and more, one has to learn the numbers on a number line first. Then addition is taught, followed by subtraction, then multiplication, finally division. After that come fractions, those terrible word problems, algebra and so on.

Mackenzie learning and using a camera in "auto" mode is the number line. I am asking what is the "addition" step, to be followed by "subtraction", "multiplication", "division" etc.

Michael

...we will be filming things like trucks, construction equipment, ships, planes, trains, etc. not really much of a story there except for filming them doing what they do.

Once he learns the technical details of editing, the work itself will appeal to him. As with your nephew, tedious, repetitive, computer work is something Mackenzie could do all day long.

An additional possibility is timelapse and hyperlapse photography. This can be more technical than straight videography, but it also has an obsessive appeal. And it's a natural fit with construction sites, ships, and other large, slow-moving objects. Sometimes, it needs detailed post work to take out flicker and other unwanted variations.

My Home - A time lapse of Singapore (2015) - YouTube

To do this, one needs to do planning, be a perfectionist (get it right the first time!), be very patient, and essentially act as security guard for the equipment. And then they need to handle all that data. It's not the place to start, but might be a good target down the road.

What is the first thing you guys learned ?

Framing and composition.

Mackenzie is not a people person. That is why (beyond the interest that he has), we will be filming things like trucks, construction equipment, ships, planes, trains, etc. not really much of a story there except for filming them doing what they do.

This does not instill hope in me that you have a viable model for building a career (i.e. something that can bring in enough money to allow an individual to support himself economically). Who do you expect to pay money for this kind of footage? Are you planning a YouTube channel? Sell to networks? Is this going to be iStock/Getty/Shutterstock after all?

It is a good idea for a hobby, something to be passionate about, but this will not make even enough money to recoup a basic gear package purchase. I would recommend the most decent sub-$1000 camera you can find, unless you have no problem with spending more if you knew for a fact it would not lead to any income generation.

Chris

Thanks for the reply ! I know my questions are and will be often a pain in the rear,but I have to take the best practice knowledge from my friends here, which far exceeds my own rudimentary knowledge of the field and then try to modify it to fit Mackenzie's learning style.

Thanks,

Michael

This does not instill hope in me that you have a viable model for building a career (i.e. something that can bring in enough money to allow an individual to support himself economically). Who do you expect to pay money for this kind of footage? Are you planning a YouTube channel? Sell to networks? Is this going to be iStock/Getty/Shutterstock after all?

It is a good idea for a hobby, something to be passionate about, but this will not make even enough money to recoup a basic gear package purchase. I would recommend the most decent sub-$1000 camera you can find, unless you have no problem with spending more if you knew for a fact it would not lead to any income generation.

Gary

Thanks for the post. Are your comments speculation, or have you done the research that explains your suppositions ? I have done research ( lots of it) and one vendor, as an example,( there are others) doing nothing but what I have described Mackenzie will be doing makes a very comfortable living, well beyond basic equipment costs. That business is just one sub niche of the effort that Mackenzie will be making. These facts are out there, you just have to do the research to get beyond your own preconceived notions. I assure you, I am not making things up, and I can read a financial statement, and I have read several from different entities basically doing this "simple" thing with filming that for whatever reason, you are so dismissive of..

Mackenzie will never make a "Gone With The Wind", but if he is able to do this, for him it will be a big accomplishment, and yes, if I set this up properly, teach him adequately, and then support him when needed, then yes he can make a career of this. Thank you for your support.

Michael

I have done research ( lots of it) and one vendor, as an example,( there are others) doing nothing but what I have described Mackenzie will be doing makes a very comfortable living, well beyond basic equipment costs.

Which vendor/vendors are you referring to explicitly?

Don't you mean specifically ?

Michael

Gary

I get your points, kinda, but to me, at this juncture you are beating a dead horse. The first task is to teach my son how to use and then successfully operate a camera. If he can do that, then we will move on to the next step. If he can not do that, then anything else that may follow will not matter anyway. I have made clear, I think, that I would spend what it took, expend every effort, move any mountain, to make this a success. I am sorry if that offends you, I am just doing what I thought a father is supposed to do.

By the way, if I buy a $3000,$5000, or more camera, all the eqipment that goes with it like a tripod, etc, a new computer and software to do editing, and anything else Mackenzie may need to do this, and in the end it does not work, and he can not make a career of this, it will not bother me in the least. I at least tried. If this fails, i will just go on to the next thing. As I have said I have never wanted to look back and say "I wish I would have done this" or" I should have done that". When it comes to my son no effort is too much.

Now if you wish to help me in my goal of teaching my son to learn and operate a camera, that would be great.

Hi Michael,

If you buy $3,000 worth of equipment and it doesn't work out, you can probably sell it for at least $2,000. :)

Cameras depreciate a bit (in steps when new models come out). Computers depreciate quickly, but are useful for more than just video editing. Lenses and microphones hold their value for years. Buy used and you might even make a profit.

Chris Hurd mentioned framing and composition. For the work you envision, this will be key. It should be balanced and traditional for a western audience. Construction companies aren't generally interested in avant garde. As an example, in western photos, we might make the bottom 3rd ground and the top 2/3rds sky. In Chinese film, it might be 4/5ths ground and 1/5th sky. Mackenzie might have a unique eye that would lead to non-traditional framing. You might encourage him to practice both. Have him film in ways that appeal to him, regardless of how "correct". Identify what is unique and practice it. Also study tradition and practice that to see the difference. He might develop both a unique, artistic look and a traditional look for paid jobs.

After framing and composition, light and exposure are probably next, but first thing's first. Leave camera motion for down the road. It can get expensive. ;)

Jon

Thank you for the great and very informative post. Much of what you say in regards to Mackenzie is undoubtedly true. It is my hope, that I can teach him correctly and precise enough, and yet there still be room for his own "expression" The hard part of course is that he is very regimented in everything he does. The likely scenario if I can adequately teach him, is that he will be technically proficient in operating a camera, but the expression of which you speak will be lacking.

Again, Thank you for the reply

Michael

Hi Michael

We have spent two years in Canada not working, while our son attended the Arrowsmith School, so you don't have to explain "doing anything" for your kids to me.

+1 Chris Hurd's comment. Framing and composition.

Cheers

Tim

BTW, I really encourage to keep at this or something else for Mackenzie as 24 is far too young to give up on him, as you well know.

Tim

Thank you for the reply. I suppose in a few posts I may have been a little short with my answers, but my explaining , to some, that I want a life and a career for my son is the best way that I have to describe it. It actually goes very much deeper than that.

I am not familiar with that school, but I will be. I hope your son is doing as well as he can. I know that for Mackenzie besides conquering the behavior issues, the biggest hurdle was getting him to the place where meaningful learning could take place. Once that happened, he made gains by leaps and bounds. My thoughts are with you and your family.

Michael

This is what I do when I am not getting payed to shoot: https://vimeo.com/album/2256730, I just pick a random subject, go out and just have fun and shoot and usually edit it the same day. Films like this have been my learningschool for all these years, I can experiment as much as I want and more important, make mistakes which I can use to learn from (or in your case, post work here and ask for constructive feedback), that experience I take with me on my payed shoots.

Noa

Is it permissible, once Mackenzie begins filming things in practice to post some of the footage here , so that my experienced friends here can make suggestions ? If it is permissible, that is great news, I have been wondering how I was going to evaluate not only his results, but also how effective my teaching had been.

If I cannot post his practice footage here to get feedback, is there a place that I could ?

Michael

This thread is now on page five and it is a great thread. The DVINFO community is coming together to assist someone who has asked for assistance. This forum at its best!

I am encouraging everyone to post. This thread has an unusual caviotte to it. I'll bet there are even many lurkers out there with knowledge of Autism reading this thread. If you do this would be a great time to jump in the water and join us. We don't bite (much).

This is not really my place to say it, but I will anyway, When posting please read what has already been said :-)

Kind Regards,

Steve

Also: Anytime is a great time to join DVINFO.net Everyone is always welcome here on the greatest forum on the internet!

Steve

Thank you for posting this and the message it contained. I want to thank everyone who have so far weighed in with suggestions, information, and comments. I learn something every day. I have only been here a short time, and I can already tell how special a place this is. Once again, thank all of you very much.

Michael and Mackenzie

Gary, I get your points, kinda, but to me, at this juncture you are beating a dead horse.
Gary (whom I seldom... actually, never, in my recollection, agree with) is 100% dead-on in this case.

You are getting a lot of good advice from a lot of people. You are asking good questions and getting good answers. Because you haven't done this before (and, if you'll excuse the Donald Rumsfeld-ism, you don't know what you don't know), you are forgetting to ask huge questions, and some (a very few) people (Gary among them) are answering them without you asking them. Forgive him (and me) for being presumptuous.

Gary's advice of buying a <$1k camera and going hog-wild is a great suggestion. I will one-up his advice and tell you to look at the 2010 "best pro-sumer camera" list, all of which will be in the $5k-$10k range, pick the one you like best, and pick it up used off eBay or Craigslist for that same $1k. You will get 5x the camera that you would get brand new, and the depreciation will be practically nil.

Your technical A/V questions are spot on. The elephant in the room is the business of it all. Your thought process of "we'll shoot it and make it great, everybody will buy it" couldn't be more wrong.

You got some great camera and technical advice. Focus on business advice now. Ask questions. Be specific. Lay out your game plan. Tell us where you'll sell, to whom, and pricing. You are assuming a lot of things and your assumptions are way off.

Edit: Please remember... we, the collective DVinfo crowd, want to set you guys up for success. That's why we're grinding you! :-)

Michael,

You have been candid, honest, and most of all...a class act. Please keep it up. Remember, "how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time".

Steve

Is it permissible, once Mackenzie begins filming things in practice to post some of the footage here , so that my experienced friends here can make suggestions ?

Ofcourse you can post his work here and ask for constructive feedback.

Michael -
Auto will only get you so far, but most cameras will do "OK" to get you started (aside from 4K shooting, where manual is a must, IMO).

Chris is spot on about framing and composition, which basically means how you get your camera pointed in such a way as to get an "interesting" shot. You can just go around and shoot "stuff" and see how it looks. I've noticed some people have a natural "eye" for it, others, not so much, but with training they can get good results, others, well, their skills must lie elsewhere...

As I mentioned in my earlier post, learn what shutter speed, iris, and gain mean to how your video will look (especially shutter speed with 4K that is typically 30FPS rather than 60). While you can let the camera handle these things, it's better to know how to take control when needed.

White balance should be on that list, along with some study of color correction and various "looks", as those "effects" can be used to enhance the final product. You hopefully will get decent looking "video" results out of most cameras, but to get a professional finished look can be a whole other layer of fine tuning.

Usually it's easy enough to find the "on" button or flip out the LCD, and figure out to hit the "red button", the things above will get you moving in the right direction after that. Keep in mind that editing what he shoots will help him refine his camera skills, and is a good part of what you'll be doing. Not sure if your son is comfortable with computers, but it will help a lot if he is, and he can get into the editing.


We all have to start somewhere, most times with whatever cheap camera we can afford, and work up from there - the skills will translate even if the menus and buttons move (and that's frustrating to us too sometimes!).



As far as monetizing, that's a whole other layer of the onion. You'll find discussions here about various video "jobs", and business models. Especially today, a job or business model that works one day may not work next month, and one that seemed silly last year might be the next big thing with the right twist of technology and social media.

Worst case, it will probably be good for your son to build a set of new skills, even if they don't turn into the big bucks... if he enjoys it, it will be something he will always have with him for his personal enjoyment - the memories of you working together, as the commercial goes, are "priceless". As I mentioned before, don't push it too hard, let it come to him naturally, burnout is always a risk even with something that can be as much fun as creating something "cool"...