Recently there has only been a handful entries for the UWOL challenges.
Maybe the themes have been too difficult, too specific, too little specific... It can be many reasons.

Earlier we have had some "UWOL Fun shoots" in between the official challenges. Basically it has been "shoot whatever you want, just for the fun of it".
Maybe it is time to try this out again.

The following has been copied from the feedback thread of Mick Jenner's "unofficial entry for the August challenge.

... it opens the door to perhaps moving in a little different direction. We are getting just a handful of entries each competition, and I wonder if it has to do with most of us having pretty much filmed what there is to film in our neighborhoods.

Maybe we should be posting some old and new stuff, not to compete, but to get opinions from friends who know a whole lot about wildlife filming. For myself, I could really benefit from learning from others, especially regarding what camera equipment is being used, blinds, how far away from subjects, time of year, etc. And of course, editing. These things are rarely addressed in the usual UWOL entries.

I was recently blown away by a video I saw on Vimeo, by a couple of guys named Lang Elliott and Bob McGuire. It was a difficult subject to get, and I would have loved to know how they did it. I couldn't ask, because they are basically proprietary.

I think that among ourselves, however, a lively back and forth about techniques would really be valuable

I'm open to any ideas or suggestions about how to attract more people and get more submitted UWOL entries. Some years ago, I ran a couple "uwol fun shoots" in between the official UWOL challenges. Maybe do that again once in a while where we open up for both new and old footage and focus more on the technical aspect, with no "winners" or judgning?

Maybe we could encourage the players to describe more of the technical aspects when we post the feedback threads as well?
Btw, never be afraid to ask those questions in the feedback threads.

We should start a new thread for fun shoots and getting more people involved and talk about it!

Your (Steve's) idea of posting some old footage, and others of organising a fun round has set me thinking along similar lines to Trond
Why not designate one round as a free for all. No theme and footage can be of any age as long as you filmed it. It could announced at any time during the year at Trond's discretion. All the other rules to apply as normal. Just thinking in print lol

Maybe the next challenge should be tried out as a "fun shoot"?
Or have "fun shoots" in between the regular ones, once in a while? (This would be when we have 2 months in between the regular challenges)

Thoughts, ideas and suggestions are most welcome! Bring it on, and let's have a discussion.

A fun shoot in between challenges would be fun.

It may be good to have fun shoots inbetween, as we tend to shoot quite a few things when time permits and it would be a good idea to share it and exchange ideas.

I dont feel there is any issue with the topics of the UWOL challenges had fun with all my entries but in my latest one i just couldnt get the time to complete one.

I remember we did something like this several years back and it was quite successful. I think we should do it again. Even to the point of re-editing old footage. I think it will be a fun chance to try different ideas/settings/techniques and get feedback. Those that do some professional work may also want to post some of the work they do so we can watch and learn. Bob

Hey Trond,

Its a good idea I think. I have been way too busy recently, and just can't get the time to get out into the bush to film wildlife.

How about this for an idea? Using the same theme we could have "wildcard" entries that do not necessarily feature wildlife or nature as the focus of the story? I know a lot of my previous entries have skirted around the theme, for instance when I did a film about motorcycle taxis in Kampala.

So essentially; if the filmmaker can't get any proper nature related subject, they can resort to trying to film something else (using the same theme). I'm thinking along the lines of cultural films, or extreme sports etc. Those entires would be 'wildcard' films that follow the theme, but do not feature nature as a subject.

The point of this would simply be for the filmmakers to still get out there and film & edit a story, and submit it, instead of giving up because nature won't comply.

Thoughts?

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the feedback.

Charge your batteries and get ready for some fun.
I'm launching a Fun shoot (see a separate thread), starting now.

Let the fun begin!

The problem this Challenge is having, is very similar to what occurred with the DV Challenge, which now appears to be defunct. Having participated initially in both challenges, I offer these observations:

1. Most of the the original shooters in the challenges moved on. In other words, these challenges provided some iniitial experience and a place to show work, but after several entries, many of the participants moved on.

2. New blood needs to be encouraged. What is left in this challenge are a few shooters who enjoy the comraderie of the on line group. The tendancy is to make others who might initially have interest to become less interested when the online group “appears” not to be accepting of newcomers. While this may not be the actual case, the appearance of not being welcoming can have the same effect.

3. Along the same lines, not all shooters are located in ideal wildlife settings, and yet the Challenge “apppears” to reward those who have easier access wildlife settings and scenic areas. While the original UWOL Challenge emphasized wild life filming, the initial themes could be interpreted by different people to produce a film that allowed the shooter to concentrate on local subject matter. Even naratives were produced. As time has passed, the rewards appeared always to go to the ones who could get to the most remote places and show more unusual imagery, The list of those in that position is very short.

As the DVChallenge neared it apparent demise, fun shoots like you are now suggesting were proposed. I believe that adding the number of events is not the answer. Rather the answer is attracting more newcomers, and acceptance of a wider range of shooters and themes.

Just my two cents.

Thanks, Chris.
I agree with that. How to newcomers and make them feel like part of the group together with the "veteran players", is the big question. Choosing the right themes of course play a big difference too.

(The fun shoots will not be regular events. More like once in a while)

We're really a pretty small niche compared to say horror filmmakers.
Here in Iowa you throw a corn cob and you'll hit two dozen horror filmmakers.

I have yet to see anyone else shooting video here in Iowa of nature.

In Yellowstone I've maybe seen two or three and they were bigger productions.

Sure a lot of people shoot video with their DSLR's now but they are still mainly photographers, not filmmakers.

We're just a really small niche which makes it hard to get new people involved.

As the DVChallenge neared it apparent demise, fun shoots like you are now suggesting were proposed. I believe that adding the number of events is not the answer. Rather the answer is attracting more newcomers, and acceptance of a wider range of shooters and themes.


I think Chris summed up the situation quite well, and the above quote is probably the most pertinent point that needs action.

I am wondering if anyone has had time to digest this and come up with some ideas?

I agree, too, with Chris about attracting newcomers. I do not agree with his suggestion for a "wider range of shooters and themes". I assume he means non-nature, or nature-peripheral shooters.

We are such a small group, in need of expertise and comment from people who know how to shoot critters and are interested in nature. The last thing we need is for UWOL to turn into a forum for anyone shooting out of doors, from train buffs to sports professionals to a family at the beach.

Our identifying feature is that humans are usually absent in our productions (or play minor roles). This means that our clips tend to be shorter and our focal lengths longer (except shooting macro). It means that we can control neither the lighting nor the talent, and don't care to. It means that we grab what we can and script it into a piece afterward, exactly the opposite of what most shooters do.

In both acquisition and editing these things cause problems unique to wildlife shooters. I have attended courses on videography, and stood around being bored with discussions of where to place lights, and green screens, and why you need a super 35 chip to get a shallow depth of field. But for most videographers, this is where the action is. This is where the entries would come from and this is where any comments would gravitate. Or so I think.

I suspect that professional wildlife videographers of the BBC and Nat Geo ilk may be a bit protective of what they do, and are not interested in joining UWOL. That's too bad. But I think that if we got our thickest skins on, and told each other what we really think, it would be a real opportunity to learn. If you think my scene is too long, or my transition was put in the wrong place, or my music is too loud, or voice too soft. If you see that I cut the highlights too much, or boosted the color too much, and can tell, and have a better way to do it. If you fell asleep, or just get tired of seeing birds all the time (sorry, not going to change that), I really want to know, and assume that others do too.

Like many, however, I hesitate to say anything to a shooter who I know is better than me, for fear of sounding foolish, and to one who I feel is not better than me for fear of pontificating or offending, because I surely make the same errors I see in the work of others. This is the problem with an Internet forum. It would never be an issue in a classroom.

Frankly, I think the biggest loss to UWOL was when we stopped having guest judges. The advice I got from them was so valuable. Too bad we don't have funds to hire some. That's just my 2 cents.

The original UWOL covered a spectrum of outdoor activities. Thus the name UWOL (Under Water Over Land.) This covered a lot of ground. As time went on, it seems things like human outdoor activities were deemphasized at UWOL, and a strictly natural spin rose in contests. Of course this is the general way things are going these days, with mankind being deemed a blight on nature by many purists. The result of that movement is that a select few are in a position to shoot pure nature video. If that's what you want to keep UWOL going, that's fine. I am only commenting on why many stopped participating in these contests.

Some of it could just be life getting in the way too.

Since my divorce so much has changed that I don't get out much to shoot even when there's not a challenge going on.

I always sign up in case I can manage to get out but having a roof over my head is my top priority now.

Chris,

You certainly are correct about the original UWOL, and you may be also right about future viability. As in everything, compromise may be the only way.

I think that if we got our thickest skins on, and told each other what we really think, it would be a real opportunity to learn. If you think my scene is too long, or my transition was put in the wrong place, or my music is too loud, or voice too soft. If you see that I cut the highlights too much, or boosted the color too much, and can tell, and have a better way to do it. If you fell asleep, or just get tired of seeing birds all the time (sorry, not going to change that), I really want to know, and assume that others do too.
This has been addressed with the "Level 1, 2 and 3" feedback. Still a work in progress. Hope more will notice this and specify the requested feedback, and for everyone to give the "brutal honest feedback" several of us prefer to receive.
It is a great way to learn and improve our own skills.

Like many, however, I hesitate to say anything to a shooter who I know is better than me, for fear of sounding foolish, and to one who I feel is not better than me for fear of pontificating or offending, because I surely make the same errors I see in the work of others. This is the problem with an Internet forum. It would never be an issue in a classroom.
Never be afraid to comment, regardless of the receiver's previous experience or skill level.
You might have seen something that noone else have noticed. :)


UWOL is certainly not limited to only filming wild animals.
As a personal example: I have filmed myself out in the wild. My films have always focused on the outdoors, even though I have included myself.

Most players these days focus on the wildlife in their entries, but UWOL itself has never limited the entries to wild animals if you want a chance to score in the voting.

I agree that after we stopped using "hired judges", the number of players gradually decreased.
We also see this in the recent years voting processes where we hardly ever get a vote from anyone else but those who submitted a film.
Not sure how we could do anything about this. I do not know anyone else than you guys who is remotely interested or have knowledge about film(ing), but if anyone of you have any connections...

I don’t know how closely you follow this challenge, Chris, because you haven’t participated here for quite some time but I found your comments quite surprising in light of some of the facts:


1. Most of the the original shooters in the challenges [UWOL & DVC] moved on. In other words, these challenges provided some iniitial experience and a place to show work, but after several entries, many of the participants moved on.

Obviously correct.


2. New blood needs to be encouraged.

List of players who signed up for last three challenges:
1. Trond Saetre
2. Andrew Hood
3. Bill Thesken
4. Bryce Comer
5. Geir Inge
6. Gordon Hoffman
7. Kevin Railsback
8. LeRoy Gunderson
9. Marj Atkins
10. Mick Jenner
11. Mike Sims
12. Paul Wood
13. Simon Wood
14. Steve Siegel
15. Vegard Paulsen
16. Vishal Jadhav
17. Martijn Damen
18. Finn Yarbrough
19. Annie Haycock
20. Phil Murray
21. Jeff Holmes
22. Hege Johansen
23. (Mark Hartopp)

When I look at the list of players above who have signed up for the last three challenges then I can only conclude that new blood is being encouraged. Three newcomers signed up this last round. Approximately 17 players on the above list signed up for more than one of these three challenges – some for all three. Obviously we should continue to encourage new blood.



What is left in this challenge are a few shooters who enjoy the comraderie of the on line group.

Judging by the sign-up list above this is not what I see. I can only speak for myself, but camaraderie is not the reason I have enjoyed being here. Simply put – I see value in this challenge. I count it a privilege to know the folk here on UWOL but my main reason for participating here is that I enjoy the opportunity to try out new things (some work, some don’t) and I really appreciate the feedback I have received here. Perhaps your perception arises from the fact that some of us always submit a film when we sign up so we always show up (whether the film is finished properly or not).

The tendancy is to make others who might initially have interest to become less interested when the online group “appears” not to be accepting of newcomers. While this may not be the actual case, the appearance of not being welcoming can have the same effect.


Wow. How did you reach this conclusion? I am puzzled by this statement. If this is true then this is certainly an indictment on us as a group but how is this possible when our motivation is to build up and keep this forum going?

The reason most of us are still here is because we see value in this challenge and constantly encourage new players to join us. This is a safe place to learn. We give feedback diligently, music videos* are encouraged - besides - it is no fun for any of us to compete with just five entries so why on earth would we want to exclude anyone particularly when we are sensitive to the problems people have! There are a number:

The topic is a problem for many much of the time especially for those who battle to come up with ideas. However, I REGULARLY read comments on the “Tales of wonder and woe” where one member is encouraging another with a suggestion or two because they have communicated the fact that they are experiencing a problem and can’t get up and running. Sure, if players come here to win then it may require a bit more effort because there are certainly some good players here who are never short of ideas!

* Sometimes the prospect of doing a narration turns people off. Narrations are not mandatory. However I must add that Gordon Hoffman is a good example of a player who was initially reluctant to do a narration and yet he was encouraged to give it a go and he has since produced videos with good narration that are way more engaging than those he produced before. No-one here pretends to give a perfect voice-over anyway but at least it increases an understanding of the subject being portrayed and is therefore worth including.

As Trond has pointed out, we even have a system for giving feedback on entries at different levels - from brutal to friendly - according to what the player requests when posting his feedback thread. . . So even feedback is safe.

Trond who is running the show, is probably the friendliest person I know! When I signed up in 2007 he was the first player to write a personal email welcoming me to UWOL. I am sure he still does the same today when new people submit a movie for the first time.
He is always quoting Rule #11 – Have Fun!!! Have fun within the rules – whatever they are or may change to be.

I can’t speak for Vishal but he – to use your word – ‘appears’ to have made himself quite at home here since he joined a short while back.

What more can one do? We are talking about adults here, not babies. All are welcome but wow if we are standing in the way of newcomers joining because we are ‘perceived’ to be a closed club then I give up.

There is another factor (which we are all aware of) that plays a significant role in reducing the number of entries submitted: Things can easily go wrong when it comes to nature and wildlife filming. Subjects may not show up but the more significantly the weather can play havoc with plans when filming outdoors!

What I would like to emphasize in this respect is that it is only fair to all concerned (including Trond, who organizes this challenge on our behalf, and Chris Hurd who pays good money to give us a dedicated Vimeo site!) to tell us what went wrong by using the Sharktank – that’s what it is there for!!

It is helpful to know the reasons for people not submitting - be it a change in circumstances, lack of time, the weather, unexpected work load, the topic, etc. At least if you communicate the problems you experienced, everyone here will have a better understanding and if necessary Trond can make changes accordingly. Five or six people explained their reason (albeit not all in the sharktank) for not submitting a film this round – all had perfectly valid and understandable reasons and this was helpful to know. Disappearing without an explanation, (especially newcomers) leaves things open to all sorts of misinterpretation or speculation, or worse still, gives rise to a post such as this. It could even be put down to plain apathy which I don’t believe is the case.

Something to consider for future challenges: if only four entries are submitted (hopefully never again) then perhaps voting should be dropped because it is basically no longer a contest.

3. Along the same lines, not all shooters are located in ideal wildlife settings, and yet the Challenge “apppears” to reward those who have easier access wildlife settings and scenic areas.


Winning films – UWOL Challenge

UWOL #21 BIRDS, FISH, REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS
Unloved – Simon Wood (Uganda)
Abandoned – Geir Inge Brekke (Norway)
tied with
Here be Dragons – Mike Sims (USA)

UWOL #22 - THE LITTLE THINGS
Zoo in a Dewdrop – Mike Sims (USA)
Spring’s Little Things - Ruth Happel (USA)

UWOL #23 - A FORCE OF NATURE
The Source – Simon Wood (Uganda)
Natural Elements – Per Johan Naesje (Norway)

UWOL #24 - INTERACTION
Trade Wind Clouds and Islands – Bill Theskin (HI USA)
Wave Riders – Finn-Eric Faale (Norway)

UWOL #25 - EXPANDING HORIZONS
Red River Survivors – Mike Sims (USA)
Exploring – Marcus Nord (Sweden)
The Atlantic Forest – Paul Wood (Brazil)

UWOL #26 - IMPACT
Next Time Take The Train – Steve Siegel (USA)

UWOL #27 - TIMING
The Rut – Bryce Comer (Canada)
End Of An Era – Paul Wood (Brazil)

UWOL #28
DVC/UWOL

UWOL #29- LIGHT
Why do Scorpions Glow in The Dark? - Mike Sims (USA)
[in]visible light – Marj Atkins (South Africa)
The Origin Of Light – Paul Wood (Spain)

UWOL #30 - MAN VERSUS WILD
Submerged – Vegard Paulsen (Norway)

UWOL #31 - NATURE SPEAKS IN COLORS
Autumn Colours – Mick Jenner (UK)
Colour – Nature’s Sign Language – Marj Atkins (South Africa)
September – Martijn Damen (Netherlands)

UWOL #32 THE ELEMENTS
Our Universe – Andrew Hood (Australia)
Elements – Vishal Jadhav (India)

UWOL #33 GOLDEN HOURS
Dawn Chorus – Mick Jenner (UK)
Tranquility – Marj Atkins (South Africa)

UWOL #34 DOWN TO EARTH
Antics – Marj Atkins (South Africa)
String Of Life – Geir Inge Brekke (Norway)

UWOL #35 LOCOMOTION
Loco-Motion – Paul Wood (Spain)

Looking at the list of players and the films that have won here (I only went back as far as UWOL #21) we have a mix of winners from every corner of the earth. I don’t see any films here that have won specifically because the player had access to wildlife settings or scenic area. (However, this is a nature, wildlife and outdoor forum so even if they did, it is perfectly acceptable!)

As far as I can see the people who have won here have done so because their films had merit of one sort or another: Good story, good narration, good editing, good camera work, good sound, interesting technique, unique take on theme, excellent interviewing and/or maybe just happened to be the most enjoyable film submitted. Please watch Mick Jenner’s films because they show what can be done with local subjects that are extremely simple and down-to-earth, found in his immediate environment in Sussex, England. It is not his “access to wildlife settings” that made these into winning films; it is his camera skill and his storytelling ability that got him there!

Simon lives in Africa, synonymous with wildlife, but he produces amazing films - mainly in the form of interviews – there is much to learn from watching his work. He did not win here because he had “access to wildlife” etc. but because he has an amazing ability to make the topic come alive using people. I could never produce films like those that some people have submitted here but they do inspire me to do better.

(The winning films from UWOL #21 onwards can be seen on the UWOL Challenge_DVInfo Vimeo site: https://vimeo.com/user8310268 )



While the original UWOL Challenge emphasized wild life filming, the initial themes could be interpreted by different people to produce a film that allowed the shooter to concentrate on local subject matter. Even naratives were produced.

Even back then there were difficult themes with reduced numbers of submissions. Trond has given us comparable themes. Trying to find new themes is quite taxing for anyone, especially themes that please everyone.

List of UWOL themes to date.

1. THE LIVING SKIES
2. RECREATION
3. THE WILD
4. WATER
5. MAMMALS
6. NIGHT
7. ADVENTURE
8. TRANSFORMATION
9. WILDLIFE
10. PSA
11. HABITAT
12. (DVC/UWOL) TRAVEL
13. ORDER or CHAOS or ORDER and CHAOS
14. RHYTHMS AND CYCLES
15. ANIMAL KINGDOM
16. JOURNEYS AND DISCOVERIES
17. RENEWAL
18. INTIMATE DETAIL
19. MOTION
20. LIGHT
21. BIRDS, FISH, REPTILES, AND AMPHIBIANS
22. THE LITTLE THINGS
23. A FORCE OF NATURE
24. INTERACTION
25. EXPANDING HORIZONS
26. IMPACT
27. TIMING
28. (DVC/UWOL) INSPIRED
29. LIGHT
30. MAN VERSUS WILD
31. NATURE SPEAKS IN COLORS
32. THE ELEMENTS
33. GOLDEN HOUR
34. DOWN TO EARTH
35. LOCOMOTION

I am not sure how Trond would feel about this, but I would like to suggest that everyone, but particularly those who are unhappy with the current themes, send at least five topics to Trond to add to his own collection. This way you may get an appreciation of just how hard it is to come up with something that will please everyone.

My other suggestion in this respect is that the pre-amble should perhaps be dropped because it does narrow down the freedom of interpretation. Alternatively, it could be left in to help folk with the theme on the understanding that it is not a limiting factor.

Trond – perhaps you should throw in one or two of those initial old topics every now and then too – some are quite nice and they were posted way back in 2006.


.
As the DVChallenge neared it apparent demise, fun shoots like you are now suggesting were proposed. I believe that adding the number of events is not the answer.

Fun shoots are a good idea because they allow for different approaches that don’t fall foul of the rules. Some players expressed a desire to use stock footage for a change to produce an entry. Fun shoots are ideal for this sort of thing. The more opportunities to produce a film here, the better!

....Rather the answer is attracting more newcomers, and acceptance of a wider range of shooters and themes.

I agree with most of Steve's response to this.

In response to Steve you wrote

The original UWOL covered a spectrum of outdoor activities. Thus the name UWOL (Under Water Over Land.) This covered a lot of ground. As time went on, it seems things like human outdoor activities were deemphasized at UWOL, and a strictly natural spin rose in contests. Of course this is the general way things are going these days, with mankind being deemed a blight on nature by many purists. The result of that movement is that a select few are in a position to shoot pure nature video. If that's what you want to keep UWOL going, that's fine. I am only commenting on why many stopped participating in these contests.

‘Many’ people? You know this, how? I am not convinced about the ‘many’ – ‘some’ maybe. This may be your experience, which is fine, but my guess is that it is more simply a matter of life and circumstances changing and people moving on.

As Trond says – those of us who regularly submit may focus on nature and wildlife but it is not a policy of UWOL – check the mission statement!

“The Under Water, Over Land (UWOL) Challenge is the planet's premiere nature and outdoors video production contest. A unique opportunity for documentarians, planet Earth-lovers, extreme sports enthusiasts, bird-watchers, sea-dwellers, and all aspiring outdoor film makers to join a community of like-minded people, swap stories, learn skills, win prizes and maybe get an exclusive place in the winners’ circle.” (Meryem Ersoz)

(The only thing that has changed here is that there are no prizes.)

Please note it is not the policy of UWOL to make educational videos, do interviews, do narrations or anything else – that is the personal choice of the players who do so.

In conclusion I would like to say that this forum has value and has potential, but everyone will have to pull together to make it work. (Use it or lose it.)

Perhaps I am just living in a little bubble of denial but I do not see that UWOL is on the point of demise. I have presented the facts for all of you to draw your own conclusions. I have added my personal notes on the subject. Only time will tell.

Best wishes, Marj

I am not sure how Trond would feel about this, but I would like to suggest that everyone, but particularly those who are unhappy with the current themes, send at least five topics to Trond to add to his own collection. This way you may get an appreciation of just how hard it is to come up with something that will please everyone.

My other suggestion in this respect is that the pre-amble should perhaps be dropped because it does narrow down the freedom of interpretation. Alternatively, it could be left in to help folk with the theme on the understanding that it is not a limiting factor.

Trond – perhaps you should throw in one or two of those initial old topics every now and then too – some are quite nice and they were posted way back in 2006.
Theme suggestions are always most welcome. If anyone has ideas, feel free to send me an email.

Pre-amble can be dropped. It will be a variation in the future. Some with, some without anything but the theme itself.

Old themes can and will most likely be re-used. Even if you made an entry with the same theme earlier, new ideas can pop up next time. Or... make a new video with the same idea you used previously. Imagination is the only limit of the ideas.

Marj, your posts are well written. Better than I could have done it myself. Thanks!

Everyone, the shark tank will be more visible and if you sign up and don't submit, you will be strongly encouraged to post in the tank threads.

In response to the various posted responses to my posts, I agree that my comments were based only on my impressions of what was occurring to cause less participation. The comments were my own personal observations, and obviously not supported by any scientific study.

I do enjoy watching the films that have been produced by the participants, and I am by no means anti-nature filming. My comments were only made to state why I thought you were getting less participation.

And my comments regarding the historical participation in UWOL go back to the beginning of UWOL challenge. I was there. This predated Meriam, who moved UWOL more to primarily nature shooting., Again, I don't offer judgment on whether that is good or bad, but only as a reason why participation may have reduced.

Interesting points from everyone.

It would appear that in principle everyone agrees that new blood would be a good thing though.

I think that in the past when prizes were offered the numbers jumped with old faces returning and new people signing up, and this had a residual effect on the competitions after it. Trying to find sponsors is the thing though. I won one of the DVC/UWOL Christmas challenges way back - I received a fantastic Roland audio recorder from Guy at DVeStore, something that has been very helpful and that I have used in all my projects up to this day.

Likewise I occasionally enter the RODE film competitions, and while I never won it I did get shortlisted and was received a video microphone. In these Rode Reel competitions they do advertise a lot of course, but on the flip side they use the competition as a means to raise awareness for the various sponsors through social media. One way to do this is that everyone signing up for the competition has to register with the sponsor, or like their Facebook page etc. This could be something we look at every now and then perhaps; to try and get a sponsor for a prize, advertise it, and in return use social media as a means to raise the profile of the sponsor?

I think on one of the last DVC/UWOL challenges there was a BM camera as a prize, from Guy at DVeStore, but ultimately outside of the entrants no real awareness for DVeStore was raised. Social media would allow us to make it more worthwhile for sponsors I believe, if this is something that we wish to explore further.

Just a quick addendum: reading though my above post it kind of sounds like I am rather mercenary and I'm only in it for the prizes, haha. In fact I think my best personal project to date was for UWOL 23, I certainly put a lot of time and work in to that one, no prizes involved.

I had been using the UWOL and DVC challenges to set other goals, like I set myself some personal limitations - the main one being that I wanted every submission I made to be worthy as a standalone film in its own right (so that the audience would not have to be aware of the theme or the background of the competition). This was because the first one I did, Unloved for UWOL 21, while it worked with respect to the competition, it left other people slightly confused as to the purpose of the story (why those specific animals for instance). In DVC 22 I tried to go completely handheld with 1 basic lens, and no interviews, to make the film as basic as possible. I tried to use this limitation most recently in UWOL 34; I had actually filmed a lot of footage, but I couldn't get into a coherent story that would have made sense if the audience was not aware of the 'Down to earth' theme.

These self imposed limitations meant that I was in the shark tank more than not. Its kind of shocking for me to see the last film I actually submitted was Boda2 back in UWOL 25. I must try harder.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that all my talk about prizes is just to say that they used to give all the competitors a bit of a jolt to the system. UWOL is friendly, and helpful. But perhaps this means that people are not necessarily as competitive as they could be as a result of this? Something to chew over perhaps.

I agree with Simon - a prize would make this more competitive and draw in new players. It is likely to raise the bar which is both good and bad. Bad in that beginners could fee overwhelmed and give up. Good in that it would certainly make this a more viable challenge rather than a learning forum which is basically what it has become (for me any way). I have the feeling that when the topic looks a bit daunting then some here don't see it worth the time and trouble to push through or to resolve their problem.Offer a prize and that would probably change.

I know Chris Hurd did offer $100 as a prize at one stage but for some reason this was not taken up. Not sure if this is still on offer but my only caution regarding a cash prize is that is would have to be on condition that the winner has a PayPal account that allows them to receive money (more countries have this facility now so it may not prove to be a problem). Transferring cash through a bank in USA is a mission. If not the $100 could be sent to one of the sponsors here in exchange for a gift voucher (winner's choice of sponsor).

The idea of using social media to endorse sponsors may prove difficult for those of us who are not on Facebook and never will be.

I know Meryem ran into issues where the shipping cost more than the item she was sending to some countries. So something that can be transferred electronically or credit with a sponsor etc is the way to go if people decide that's the route to go.

I've always felt that UWOL was for more outdoor/nature/wildlife filmmakers and DVC was more for filmmakers that wanted to hone their craft with actors and such.

I know nature and wildlife filmmakers are a small niche compared to "general"" filmmakers.

Throw a rock here in Iowa and you'll hit twenty horror filmmakers.

I've never run across another nature/wildlife filmmaker here in Iowa and even in national Parks like Yellowstone you won't encounter any on most visits. So I think by nature this will always be a small group.

That being said I get emails all the time from people wanting to learn nature and wildlife filmmaking. So they're out there, I think they just don't know about UWOL.

Somehow I think a social media campaign to bring awareness could help.

This of us that have websites with blogs can certainly promote the next challenge and see if that brings in new people.

I get a fair amount of traffic to my site and I can certainly get a couple posts ready to promote UWOL and see if that brings in a few new people as well.

Yes; shipping is an issue. With the audio recorder I won I had it posted to a friend in the US who comes to Uganda twice a year, so I just waited a few months before it arrived. Otherwise it would have been difficult.

I do agree that outdoor/nature films are a niche market. However, that means that this competition is one of the few actually being held in this genre worldwide. That means there has to be demand for it; though limited.

I have seen a number of academies that do wildlife training - I wonder would it be worthwhile contacting venues like those (though their Facebook pages for instance) to try and drum up support for it? For instance:

Wildeye - International School of Wildlife Film-making (http://www.wildeye.co.uk)
https://www.facebook.com/Wildeye.co.uk/timeline/

Marj; while I understand that a lot of people are reticent to sign away their personal details online, it is possible to just have a Facebook page for your company that could be used for marketing and so forth - no personal details required. Just a thought?

I for one would say that when i stepped out of my day job a year back and embarked on this road of understanding wildlife films , this is the only group that has helped me. Submitted 3 films and i enjoyed it completely.
Got a lot of guidance and understanding which helped me a lot .

Would continue to participate in here as much as i can , currently trying to do my first feature length documentary and facing major challenges constructing it more from a experience standpoint .

India is a interesting country where wild life film making is a very niche market, and i can count the full time people in this and they do not total more than 20 folks .

I know Chris Hurd did offer $100 as a prize at one stage but for some reason this was not taken up. Not sure if this is still on offer but my only caution regarding a cash prize is that is would have to be on condition that the winner has a PayPal account that allows them to receive money (more countries have this facility now so it may not prove to be a problem). Transferring cash through a bank in USA is a mission. If not the $100 could be sent to one of the sponsors here in exchange for a gift voucher (winner's choice of sponsor).
I emailed Chris about his offer just before the next challenge after he offered that prize.
Didn't get any answer, but at that time, I heard Chris was pretty busy, so I didn't push it.

I know Meryem ran into issues where the shipping cost more than the item she was sending to some countries.

I've always felt that UWOL was for more outdoor/nature/wildlife filmmakers and DVC was more for filmmakers that wanted to hone their craft with actors and such.
Spot on! That is the difference between UWOL and DVC.

Meryem generously paid every prize out of her own pocket. In the end it just cost too much to continue.

1) Another idea for a fun shoot. especially if you are having difficulty getting out. A fun round aimed at recycling a previous entry but re edited/adjusted etc with the aid of comments received. Might require some further filming but would be interesting to how well we could polish up some of those old submissions.

2) Rather more controversial, Matt Thompson alluded to this a little while ago, peer voting! Since we moved away from independent judging I find it amusing when reading comments like"I hadn't noticed that until so and so pointed that out etc" before judging has taken place We all view films different ways and enjoy them for different reasons therefore comments like that could and probably has altered how you would have voted until that point had been hi-lited. What is correct to one person maybe an irrelevance to another. The boundaries of what is correct in filming and editing are always being pushed , wobbly POV is and example, now an accepted art form, a few years back would have been derided and the camera operator sacked , When I view entries I do not view any previous comments until after I have viewed them all and made my notes. I would like to see films put up for judging for 7 days without explanations from the entrants, after voting, a further 7days for comments and only then the results announced. That way new comers would not feel the judging of their entries are influenced by comments from regulars here.

Mick

1) Another idea for a fun shoot. especially if you are having difficulty getting out. A fun round aimed at recycling a previous entry but re edited/adjusted etc with the aid of comments received.

2) When I view entries I do not view any previous comments until after I have viewed them all and made my notes. I would like to see films put up for judging for 7 days without explanations from the entrants, after voting, a further 7days for comments and only then the results announced. That way new comers would not feel the judging of their entries are influenced by comments from regulars here.

Mick

Number 1 would be an interesting one for sure; it could also be an actual theme for a regular UWOL competition - remake, reboot, or recycle an old entry. Or a sequel to an old project (follow up on an old story).

Number 2 ought to be easy enough to do as an experiment. I personally have never had an issue with criticism, so I don't see it as off putting though I guess others may? While this may or may not help newcomers settle in, it wouldn't attract newcomers though. We still need to figure out how to get new people on board.



Looking though the internet I came across this: The International Association of wildlife Filmmakers. This is literally the mother-load of wildlife filmmaker contacts, both highly qualified and beginners alike!

IAWF - Wildlife Film-makers and Wildlife Photography (http://www.iawf.org.uk/home/)

They also have a Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/International-Association-of-Wildlife-Filmmakers-509598045743420/timeline/

I am thinking this could be a good place to start 'advertising' for new people to join in? Does anyone know a person who is a member of the association?

Thoughts?

If I remember right the UWOL Challenge was started as a way to get people out and shooting nature. There was a fair number of people at the time (more than there is now) on the "under water, over land" forum talking about videoing wildlife. Some people were actually out shooting footage, some were putting clips up on the internet for people to watch, other were asking questions and some were just talking about getting out. The idea came up to challenge people to get out shooting and also make it so you would have to get out of your comfort zone at times. I believe Meryem was the big push behind the Challenge getting going and this link shows it was leaning more to nature and wildlife..

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/under-water-over-land/82378-uwol-challenge-its-own-forum-now.html

As for getting more people and especially new people I'm not sure what the answer is and I did not get the impression that they are not welcome. I believe some have place pretty high on their first entries.
I have mixed feelings about prizes. If a person is only interested because there is a prize being offered I don't think they will enter very often as there is some very talented people here. I believe you have to enjoy the challenge of doing these short films with a theme not of your choosing for the fun and experience gained and not to win some prize.
I think if people want to learn about shooting and editing nature films and try their hand at it or just see different parts of the world the UWOL Challenge is a good place to be.

Gordon

I would like to see films put up for judging for 7 days without explanations from the entrants, after voting, a further 7days for comments and only then the results announced. That way new comers would not feel the judging of their entries are influenced by comments from regulars here.

Interesting thoughts. Maybe we can try this out.
For me, the most important is the feedback. This is what we all can learn from, and a great way to improve our skills as outdoors film makers. When the UWOL challenge was created back in 2006/2007, this was also said to be one of the goals of the challenge.
The judging and announcing winners, of course is, and will continue to be, a part of UWOL, but in my opinion not the most important part of the challenge.

If I remember right the UWOL Challenge was started as a way to get people out and shooting nature.
Your memory is spot on.

I have mixed feelings about prizes. If a person is only interested because there is a prize being offered I don't think they will enter very often as there is some very talented people here. I believe you have to enjoy the challenge of doing these short films with a theme not of your choosing for the fun and experience gained and not to win some prize.
Agreed!

I agree wholeheartedly with Marj’s most eloquent posts describing the current state of play of UWOL, and most of the subsequent comments - ( I have to admit I wrote most of this a few days ago, having been victim to DVInfo’s time out problem a few times).

I still consider myself a ¨newcomer,´ although looking back at my posts, I’ve been here since UWOL 24!
Back then I was overawed by the quality of the films I saw here, and thought I could not possibly compete - I don’t have the kit to film wildlife, and it has been a long time since I was in the Serengeti with my old Nikon and tele lens - but I read the introduction - ¨and all aspiring outdoor film makers to join a community of like-minded people, swap stories, learn skills, win prizes and maybe get an exclusive place in the winners’ circle ¨- have a go, I thought, and I was very pleased with the response to my first entry - The Farmer.

I was made to feel very welcome, received good comments, some for technical faults, some regarding the story, but I was enthused by the idea - a fixed time frame, a fixed theme, a fixed duration, and a fixed submission date.

As I said in another post, Im not sure that the emphasis on wildlife is something that is dictated by UWOL, or is more likely a factor of those submitting films over that past couple of years - as Kevin said its the emphasis on ¨outdoor/nature/wildlife ¨
None of my films have been exclusively about wild things, but are more like Nature films - as are Simon’s, which I admire greatly - try and tell a story which features the theme.

The important thing is to take it as a challenge - get out and film something - whatever it is, and as close to your interpretation of the theme as you can, and learn - you will have fun doing it, you will gain by applying a fixed time frame to achieve it, and you will be helped by the group - I feel proud to be part of that group, and your comments have helped me improve, in many respects.

As in life, things will ebb and flow - the UWOL challenge is a great institution, and we are lucky to be part of DVInfo - a world leading forum in my opinion - we can have discussions such as this one, without getting bogged down in endless bull about the latest lens, camera, of gadget on the market - there is no (excuse my expression) ¨willy waving ¨ here.

Lets just stick to it - I like the idea of a fun challenge - we tried the idea of a round the world collaborative film, which got to a certain stage and stopped, we have great ideas between us, but of course most of us are not professional wildlife videographers, and we have the normal pressures of day to day life.
I think a prize is always welcome, but I’m sure in the days of the Rode and Sony competitions it would be hard to compete, and as Gordon has said, if I had had entered at the time to win a prize, I would have been discouraged because of the quality of the previous entries.

However, success breeds success, so why not stick to the current formula and see what happens? Perhaps we could post links to the Facebook page, or on wildlife film pages such as UDENA or Wildlife-film as referenced by Simon above. I suppose if we really want exposure, we should consider a You Tube channel - thats where the clicks are…..

Meanwhile - stick to Rule 11, and thanks to Trond for keeping the ball rolling (I do like the idea of sending five theme ideas).

I do like the idea of sending five theme ideas.
Go for it :)
Finding a theme that can be used anywhere in the world at the same time, can be a challenge itself.
I'm always open for new ideas.

As I said in another post, Im not sure that the emphasis on wildlife is something that is dictated by UWOL, or is more likely a factor of those submitting films over that past couple of years - as Kevin said its the emphasis on ¨outdoor/nature/wildlife ¨

The important thing is to take it as a challenge - get out and film something - whatever it is, and as close to your interpretation of the theme as you can, and learn - you will have fun doing it, you will gain by applying a fixed time frame to achieve it, and you will be helped by the group - I feel proud to be part of that group, and your comments have helped me improve, in many respects.
Well said! It's first of all a challenge and encouragement for each and every one of you to try new things, push your limits and improve your skills.

Hi UWOL friends:

For those of you who don't know me, I participated in UWOL in the early days. Amazingly, Trond has continued to keep after me and he sent word about this in-between Fun challenge using old material and a platform to stretch the imagination a bit. I received word really late in the game, but I've managed to pull something together. And, like old times, it's been a blast! Thanks Trond!

The dialog on this thread is impressive and a must for keeping UWOL alive and well through the ages. I'm in no place to comment but I have observed one thing: We haven't even started the feedback threads yet, but I feel like I've been welcomed home. It's like coming in from the cold and into your living-room to sit by the fire. Looking at the list Marj put together of the those who participated in the last 3 rounds, there are many familiar faces there along with some people I don't know.... that looks like a healthy UWOL community to me! Does the group need to be large to do well? I'm betting that after having stepped away for a few years and now returning, I'm going to be blown away by the entries from those of you who have kept at it through the challenges. And perhaps that's the point of it, that everyone improves their skill while having fun. Since you all have been at it, it might not be apparent to you how much you have improved, individually and as a group. But not having been around, I will be sure to see it, and I will let you know when I do!!!

It is wonderful to participate this round. I can't wait to see what you all have put together with such an "open" theme.

Could you now let me know what I am to do to post my entry? When do you put up your threads? How are we to title them? Do I simply upload to Vimeo and include the link in my thread?

Thanks for helping out an "old" "newbie"!

Cheers,

Cat

For any newcomers:

When uploading your video to vimeo:
Please include "by 'your name'" in the title, and "fun shoot 2015" in the description. Makes my job easier when I don't have to watch the video to figure out who the film maker is.
(I'll make sure every entry is titled the same way before publising.)

Use Vimeo guidelines for quality settings.

Make the videos "private".
After deadline I am changing all the submitted videos to "public" and post a new thread here with links to all videos.
After that is done, all players should make their own feedback threads. Please include a link to your video and specify what kind of feedback you prefer. (Level 1, 2 or 3) See the guidelines for more info.

All players (and of course anyone else who might want to) are strongly encouraged to give feedback to the other players.

If you have questions, ask!

To where are we to upload it, Trond. Do we use our own accounts?

Tim, I have replied to your email with the instructions for upload.
Welcome!

Thanks Trond. I have uploaded it.

Trond,

Please e-mail me, too, where to upload the video. Can you submit more than one?

rm4birds@yahoo.com

Steve, I forgot to answer here earlier, but I sent the email to you last night. Hope you got it.