Hi All,

I have just been contacted to record a choir on Thursday evening. As of now, I have only ever filmed weddings, proposals and tutorials. This will be my first time recording within a cathedral with a 9-second echo. Having spoken to the person hiring me, she has stated that she will be positioning the choir in front of the altar, in a semi circle. As there are 16 members, I imagine that this will be in two lines of 8. I asked if there would be an audio engineer present, but the lady said that unfortunately there would not be one. The cathedral, which can be seen below, has a nine second echo and will be empty during the performance, as they are closing the cathedral for the video to be shot.

http://www.cathedralconcerts.org.uk/uploads/3/6/6/6/3666991/1475926_orig.jpg?311

My question regarding this, is how to capture the audio so that it is pleasing for the viewer? I have been through a couple of threads that have already posed similar questions, as well as some YouTube tutorials and a helpful visit to the Shure website. The problem I have is that all of my gear is dedicated towards recording weddings.

My current gear list:

1 Master Light Stand (Manfrotto)
1 low level mic stand
Three Sony M10 Recorders
2 TASCAM DR07 MK II Recorders
1 Zoom H5 Recorder
3 SANKEN COS 11D Lavalier Microphones
1 Sennheiser 416p Shotgun Microphone

I am only charging the client a small amount of money, as I realise that my expertise lie elsewhere, and this is a good opportunity to stretch my learning and understanding of audio.

I guess my main question is, do I require buying three mic stands and mics in order to get the best audio possible? The lady suggested using one pointing left, one pointing centre and one off to the right. The problem is, I only have a small budget of around £500 that I'd be willing to separate with at this moment in time, as I already have a deficit where equipment spending is concerned.

Thanks to anyone who can offer a solution, or advice that I should be watching out for!

Kind regards,

Craig

This is a VIDEO shoot as well as an AUDIO recording? How many cameras? What kinds of restrictions (if any?) on visible microphones or stands? What is the intended motivation/purpose/intent of this video recording?

The photo makes the space appear to be enormous, so it seems impractical to try to "fly" anything, either horizontally or vertically.

You don't appear to have ANY suitable microphones according to your list. How TALL is your "Master Light Stand"?

Reasoning: you could use a "single point" mic technique (ORTF, X-Y, M/S, etc.) and a single tall stand. But that stand would need to be essentially in the center, perhaps immediately in front of or behind the conductor. That is frequently a problem with good video angles where people think that a mic stand in the center of the frame is distracting, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone_practice#Various_methods_of_stereo_recording

Do you have access to the venue during a rehearsal? How early can you get in to set up? Especially in such an enormous space with such a long reverb time, and especially if you have little experience micing this kind of performance, you need all the time you can get to move the microphone(s) around to get the optimal pickup. We typically use the venue as part of the "instrument" to achieve a balanced direct/reflected "soundscape" in the recorded tracks. That typically takes some time (hours) to move mics around during the rehearsal to identify the best location.

With reverb that long, you may have to use closer microphone distance than we would normally use in a venue with more conventional acoustics. The distance between the source (choir) and the microphone directly determines the ratio of direct/ambient sound. And in this case it would seem that you will have an overabundance of ambient sound.

This is a VIDEO shoot as well as an AUDIO recording? How many cameras? What kinds of restrictions (if any?) on visible microphones or stands? What is the intended motivation/purpose/intent of this video recording?

The photo makes the space appear to be enormous, so it seems impractical to try to "fly" anything, either horizontally or vertically.

You don't appear to have ANY suitable microphones according to your list. How TALL is your "Master Light Stand"?

Reasoning: you could use a "single point" mic technique (ORTF, X-Y, M/S, etc.) and a single tall stand. But that stand would need to be essentially in the center, perhaps immediately in front of or behind the conductor. That is frequently a problem with good video angles where people think that a mic stand in the center of the frame is distracting, etc.

Hello Richard,

Thank you so much for sharing your expertise. By the sounds of it, this is a last minute edit to gain some usable footage to support the choir's album release.

This is a video AND an audio shoot - with only me at the helm. I am considering two-three cameras. I will have a set wide angle shot, along with a close up that I will change periodically throughout the shoot. The final camera may be aimed at the conductor. I am considering shooting 4K with the wide, as I'll be able to do a pan in post. As well as this, I'm considering getting some venue shots, where I can cutaway to other angles. As the building is quite amazing structurally, I think I'll be able to get some nice symmetrical angles.

As far as I'm aware, there are no restrictions. The cathedral is closed for the performance, and the client has informed me that she usually uses a three mic setup in front of the choir, which sounds as though it would be quite invasive, and therefore, I believe I will have free reign as to where to position my gear. I don't know if she has done this personally, or an audio engineer has done this for her previously, as she's unable to provide me with the same setup that she describes.

I believe the purpose is a promotion for their CD release, which sounds as though it is very nearby. My guess is that they had a last minute idea, and I'm hoping that they will be going through with the idea that they currently have of rehearsing on Wednesday evening. If they do so, I will be there.

My Manfrotto Master Stand can go to 4 metres. I figured that my mics would be pretty terrible for this shoot - so much of wedding videography is based on isolating a given area, whereas this situation is opening yourself to the talent. This is why I'm willing to invest for the shoot, as I'm sure this won't be the only situation I run into where I need a more open pick up pattern.

I wouldn't mind using a single point mic technique. Would you be able to recommend a microphone of sorts to complete a recording such as this? I'll research the technique as much as possible.

Alternatively, would you blow the budget in order to get three stands and three mics? I dislike this option... it's not really a great option for me, really. If I got a clamp, I could possibly use two microphones in the same positioning (behind the conductor) so that one runs as a back up?

Thanks again, Richard! The X Y setup looks like a good shout. I've looked at some cardioid microphones, and I'd certainly be willing to purchase two for this shoot, if you can recommend some in the $300-400 range.

Thanks again - super helpful!

If this is a promotional "music video" then why not use the same "music video" production tricks as perfected for more contemporary "popular" music?

i.e. play back the release recording and have the choir "lip-sync" to the recorded performance (which they should be quite familiar with). That way, the audio track on your video will be as perfect as their audio recording release. I am quite serious. This is not a frivolous suggestion.

By "lip-sync" I don't mean silently "miming" the action of singing. I mean that they sing-along with their own recording, but you don't need to buy/hire/borrow any microphones, stands, etc. And you can concentrate on getting great video without any worries about trying to reproduce their probably great audio recording with insufficient resources.

Do you have access to the venue during a rehearsal? How early can you get in to set up? Especially in such an enormous space with such a long reverb time, and especially if you have little experience micing this kind of performance, you need all the time you can get to move the microphone(s) around to get the optimal pickup. We typically use the venue as part of the "instrument" to achieve a balanced direct/reflected "soundscape" in the recorded tracks. That typically takes some time (hours) to move mics around during the rehearsal to identify the best location.

With reverb that long, you may have to use closer microphone distance than we would normally use in a venue with more conventional acoustics. The distance between the source (choir) and the microphone directly determines the ratio of direct/ambient sound. And in this case it would seem that you will have an overabundance of ambient sound.

I've only just seen this - thanks for another response! I have asked this, and they are hoping that a rehearsal will be on Wednesday. If so, I'm there. I can get to the venue around 5:30pm at best. That gives me 90 minutes before the performance. The choir will be practising from 6:30pm onwards, so if I can get all my gear set up within that hour, or thirty minutes if time is tight, then I will have thirty minutes to monitor the sound and get the best possible audio. Unfortunately, I don't have hours. I am working during the day, and as this is a short notice gig, the only thing I could do would be to go to the cathedral on another evening and hope that a choir is performing and that I can get a practice in.

OK. I have read on the Shure site that it is great to have a high point and to aim downwards. In many ways, I think the client understands the difficulty that the venue presents, and probably won't have an incredibly high expectation of the audio itself. They seem more focused on having great footage. However, as a videographer, I am well aware that more than 50% of the enjoyment will come from the audio in this recording, and I need to do my best, given the time and experience that I have.

If I need to be as close as possible, am I better off going for a three mic stand, three microphone and recorder setup? I think I'll be breaking the bank for this setup though, and it really isn't the time to be doing so.

Thanks again!!!

Rent!

And do consider Richard's suggestion that they lip sync to a recording; that's probably the best advise under the circumstances and considering the limited depth in audio gear and knowledge.

If this is a promotional "music video" then why use the same "music video" production tricks as perfected for more contemporary "popular" music. i.e. play back the release recording and have the choir "lip-sync" to the recorded performance (which they should be quite familiar with). That way, the audio track on your video will be as perfect as their audio recording release. I am quite serious. This is not a frivolous suggestion.

Thanks Richard. After reading the client's emails again (exchanged quite a few today) I can confirm that it seems the forthcoming CD release is yet to be recorded, which means that they must have an extremely fast turnover time if that 'forthcoming' CD is going to be released any time soon!

Your solution sounds great, but I definitely wish to do my best with the audio recording as well. I may get back in touch with the client to discuss this, as it makes a lot of sense. I could still get them to sing, and then sync in Plural Eyes once the recording has been made.

Rent!

And do consider Richard's suggestion that they lip sync to a recording; that's probably the best advise under the circumstances and considering the limited depth in audio gear and knowledge.

Thanks Seth. I'm uncertain of good businesses to rent from in the U.K, but I'll consider it. However, I am happy to part with a reasonable amount of money, so that I can reuse the gear in the future.

I wish they had the recording finished now. I may suggest to the client that it may be advantegeous to postpone until the recording has been made. Despite this, there may be a reason that they need the recording now, as it seems like a rush.

Hmmmm, haven't shot audio in that sort of scenario, but have run audio plenty of times...

First, that "room" was likely to have been engineered for a "full or nearly full house", the echos will be a nightmare, most likely, due to the lack of sound absorbent bodies... not an idea situation acoustically, as your "9 second echo" indicates.

Second, since this is a closed set with no audience, are they trying for a "live" feel, or is there any chance they have previously recorded audio and could "lip sync" the visual side of the performance? Yeah, I know lip sync is evil, but might be less so than that "live" room.

After those "scary" observations, I see a ray of hope - since this is a closed set, I presume you'll have the opportunity to re-take as needed and also sound check (extensively perhaps, unless you've got a "bit" of audio experience). Are they doing a whole "set", or just one or a couple songs?

Aesthetically, you're going to have mics visible, which is a negative, since as Richard noted, no way I can see to "fly" mics as would be "proper" in a scenario like this.

Is there a rental house where you could get proper mics? You'll need some mics that are directional, and able to get them fairly tight in to the "talent" (aesthetics again...) due to that echo - you're probably also going to want a "room" audio track (Zoom?) to mix in for a live feel in post.

Mic placement (and selection) is an art, familiarize yourself with it as much as you can, that will give you a fair chance! I've run audio plenty of times in "nightmare" rooms, most times dealing with someone else's "setup", so this brings flashbacks... surprisingly tiny adjustments of angle and position can have huge effect on the audio...

The best way I can describe this is you should try to get mics reasonably close in for as "dry" a sound of the choir as possible (2-3 mics with proper placement may cover you, don't think trying to mic each member is practical...), then add ambience in post from a secondary "room" source - at least that would be what I'd try for, the less "room" in the main audio tracks, the better.

See about getting needed mics and stands, and make sure there is time for "sound checks" - have headphones so you and the choir director can listen to results and correct as much as possible before rolling the video side of the equation (in order to make a dynamic video, you'll be plenty busy there as it happens!).

Not sure if there's any way to get the mics as Richard suggests in a single place where it would give you a fighting chance of hiding them, while still getting the desired audio quality, but that's definitely a possibility to consider.

Keep in mind that even an "audio engineer" would probably find that room a bit of a nightmare... so do your best, and hope it works out! I'm guessing they really LIKE the echo and "ambience", and are hoping to capture that magically onto video in one pass... it's going to take some setup time if that's at all possible, but with a little luck and proper mics, you might be able to pull it off!

It wasn't clear whether this was their usual recording venue? Can they hire the recording people to come in and do the audio recording at the same time (or you shoot video of the recording session itself)? That way you can take advantage of the gear and experience of their audio recording provider.

Hmmmm, haven't shot audio in that sort of scenario, but have run audio plenty of times...

First, that "room" was likely to have been engineered for a "full or nearly full house", the echos will be a nightmare, most likely, due to the lack of sound absorbent bodies... not an idea situation acoustically, as your "9 second echo" indicates.

Second, since this is a closed set with no audience, are they trying for a "live" feel, or is there any chance they have previously recorded audio and could "lip sync" the visual side of the performance? Yeah, I know lip sync is evil, but might be less so than that "live" room.

I'm definitely going to email the client and ask this. At least if she knows that this is an option and turns it down, then she knows what it's going to sound like... having recorded there many times themselves, I'm guessing they know very well how difficult this is going to be to capture.

After those "scary" observations, I see a ray of hope - since this is a closed set, I presume you'll have the opportunity to re-take as needed and also sound check (extensively perhaps, unless you've got a "bit" of audio experience). Are they doing a whole "set", or just one or a couple songs?

Two songs. 10 minutes. They're hoping it won't take too long, but as you've stated, that's heavily dependent on the audio captured.

Aesthetically, you're going to have mics visible, which is a negative, since as Richard noted, no way I can see to "fly" mics as would be "proper" in a scenario like this.

I guess so... if I did go with the X Y recording, with two cadioids not too far from the talent, I may be able to get a wide and a close up that avoids having them in the frame? I'm guessing this would be a bonus to them, as the focus seems to be on video much more so than audio.

Is there a rental house where you could get proper mics? You'll need some mics that are directional, and able to get them fairly tight in to the "talent" (aesthetics again...) due to that echo - you're probably also going to want a "room" audio track (Zoom?) to mix in for a live feel in post.

Not that I know of, but I have a friend who I can contact who has been in the industry for a decade or so... I'm sure he'd be able to advise me of a place to rent... that said, I'd rather buy. I want to make the most of audio equipment, and I'm sure it'll pay for itself long term. That said, there's no way I'm affording more than £1000 equivalent.

How would you propose mixing the 'room' track with the talent?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Mic placement (and selection) is an art, familiarize yourself with it as much as you can, that will give you a fair chance! I've run audio plenty of times in "nightmare" rooms, most times dealing with someone else's "setup", so this brings flashbacks... surprisingly tiny adjustments of angle and position can have huge effect on the audio...

I'll try to do more reading on this, as I am only used to dealing with dialogue. I managed to pick up surprisingly decent audio from a proposal film that I shot by positioning a lavalier mic into a wall and directing it towards the unknowing client... but that's not going to help me here.

The best way I can describe this is you should try to get mics reasonably close in for as "dry" a sound of the choir as possible (2-3 mics with proper placement may cover you, don't think trying to mic each member is practical...), then add ambience in post from a secondary "room" source - at least that would be what I'd try for, the less "room" in the main audio tracks, the better.

See about getting needed mics and stands, and make sure there is time for "sound checks" - have headphones so you and the choir director can listen to results and correct as much as possible before rolling the video side of the equation (in order to make a dynamic video, you'll be plenty busy there as it happens!).

Not sure if there's any way to get the mics as Richard suggests in a single place where it would give you a fighting chance of hiding them, while still getting the desired audio quality, but that's definitely a possibility to consider.

Thanks for all of these considerations. I definitely believe that the conductor would accept the X Y configuration from behind... just have to see...

Keep in mind that even an "audio engineer" would probably find that room a bit of a nightmare... so do your best, and hope it works out! I'm guessing they really LIKE the echo and "ambience", and are hoping to capture that magically onto video in one pass... it's going to take some setup time if that's at all possible, but with a little luck and proper mics, you might be able to pull it off!

Thanks Dave! Really appreciate your time and thoughts!!!

It wasn't clear whether this was their usual recording venue? Can they hire the recording people to come in and do the audio recording at the same time (or you shoot video of the recording session itself)? That way you can take advantage of the gear and experience of their audio recording provider.

Sorry. This is their recording venue. They are the choir of the cathedral (pictured in the original post and the place of the recording).

By the sounds of it, there is no chance of an audio engineer. I asked about that, and they said it wasn't available. I definitely realise that this would be the best case scenario though... I think I need to share these words of wisdom and see what their thoughts are... I really think 'my best' will be really appreciated by them. At least that's the feeling that I get...

Thanks again, Richard... if you could recommend what you would do if I were to go with an X Y recording situation in terms of microphones, I would appreciate it.

OK, you've got three monkeys all came to the same conclusions, it's a party! There was only the first response when I started typing, so I think we were all "channelling" the same audio guru advice!!

You're not going to get the mics "high" without compromising your video with at least one stand...

I'm thinking one stand, three mics, arrayed in a "V", maybe in front of the conductor (mostly hiding the stand?). You're actually going to need a mixer, or go with two mics and a stereo recorder, a third on another recorder if needed. How "wide" is the choir when set up, and what distances would you be working with for mic placement? I'm presuming with a semi-circle arrangement (thinking of a parabolic sort of thing) the choir could be fairly compact which might help you quite a bit. Remember you have to have sight lines to each vocalist (thus my comparison of a parabolic mic array "centered" in the semi-circle), to avoid blocking the audio - again why "high" is easier than "low" placement.

In the back of my mind I have this rather horrid feeling that the CD is a "dream" (one on a shoestring budget?), and somehow this shoot is about pushing that forward, making the audio sort of critical, but this really is a "cart before the horse" way of doing it, as has been pointed out. Live and studio productions are different animals, and there's a good reason that most music videos are shot to the STUDIO track, multiple passes, angles, etc., and edited to the final product...


Given the tight timelines, I'm just hoping you have the chance to do "re-takes", and proper rehearsal/set up for the actual shoot - if the audio IS crucial to their future CD being funded/produced, this is not the place to try to do a "whole set/album" shoot, but rather hire proper audio, and shoot ONE (OK, maybe two... or three) songs, multiple takes until it's so good it sends shivers down the spine... and THAT takes a combination of science, art, talent and luck on the best of days!

OK, you've got three monkeys all came to the same conclusions, it's a party! There was only the first response when I started typing, so I think we were all "channelling" the same audio guru advice!!

You're not going to get the mics "high" without compromising your video with at least one stand...

I'm thinking one stand, three mics, arrayed in a "V", maybe in front of the conductor (mostly hiding the stand?).

How can I attach three mics to one stand?

You're actually going to need a mixer, or go with two mics and a stereo recorder, a third on another recorder if needed.

I could purchase a H6 with three mics if necessary.... what would fit the bill though, as a great sounding mic?

How "wide" is the choir when set up, and what distances would you be working with for mic placement? I'm presuming with a semi-circle arrangement (thinking of a parabolic sort of thing) the choir could be fairly compact which might help you quite a bit. Remember you have to have sight lines to each vocalist (thus my comparison of a parabolic mic array "centered" in the semi-circle), to avoid blocking the audio - again why "high" is easier than "low" placement.

Makes a lot of sense... thanks! I imagine they're either going to be 2X8 or 3X6.

In the back of my mind I have this rather horrid feeling that the CD is a "dream" (one on a shoestring budget?), and somehow this shoot is about pushing that forward, making the audio sort of critical, but this really is a "cart before the horse" way of doing it, as has been pointed out. Live and studio productions are different animals, and there's a good reason that most music videos are shot to the STUDIO track, multiple passes, angles, etc., and edited to the final product...

Given the tight timelines, I'm just hoping you have the chance to do "re-takes", and proper rehearsal/set up for the actual shoot - if the audio IS crucial to their future CD being funded/produced, this is not the place to try to do a "whole set/album" shoot, but rather hire proper audio, and shoot ONE (OK, maybe two... or three) songs, multiple takes until it's so good it sends shivers down the spine... and THAT takes a combination of science, art, talent and luck on the best of days!

Yeah.... I knew that asking here would be the right choice, I just don't have the experience in order to pass this kind of information on yet when the client gets in touch... I knew that it'd be a complicated one.

I'm going to email the client again.

Thanks! If you could give me an idea of what you would consider buying on a budget that is a maximum £1000, I would really appreciate it... and maybe even one that is £500... assuming that you're as knowledgeable on your gear, as you are on your audio skills.

Really appreciate your time!

Thanks again!!!

OK, two songs, 10 minutes finished product... they are doing a "demo tape"... with little or no clue, but that's OK... it happens, been there, have a t-shirt collection...

Keep in mind that for 10 minutes of "finished" product you could be looking at a couple HOURS of retakes, especially if this is being shot live. Unlike a wedding or event video where you get one pass, and take what you get... a demo tape needs to have polish, no flaws, it's got to be good. If the talent is good enough, it could be almost a one pass affair, run multiple cameras/angles and cross your fingers - 4K will give you some advantages (pan/crop in post for wide/close), but think out what angles you want - I'd say at LEAST three camera positions, I'd probably have 3-5 and a manned camera, so you're on the right track! Keep the cameras rolling, take as many "takes" as needed - you may even be able to do some editing magic in post from different takes!

Back to audio...
An X/Y setup should be OK depending on the width and arc of the choir (parabolic again), if the room is dark, you might be able to place fairly close behind and above the conductor and get away with it, with minimal visual impact - otherwise lower and in front of her may work - experimentation and time are your friends here. "Room/ambient" can probably come from that Zoom - find a place a bit further back - walk the room and look for a "sweet spot" during the practice - there will be good "spots", bad spots, horrible spots, and likely a few really insanely great spots (I'm presuming from the photo that the cathedral was engineered for acoustical quality, as are many modern venues). Mix the ambient in in post - a good pair of cans in post may be as critical, or more than, the mics...

First you've got to capture it, but the mix is also going to be interesting - I'm guessing they will want a 5.1 mix... whether they even know what that is or not, you'll be after a "surround sound" mix in the final product to best show the talent, and you want to mix to make it sound like the viewer is IN that room with all the sonorous beauty of the echo/reverb! The joyous part is you have to have a fairly "dry" source from close in to the choir... and the ambient to mix to taste in post!

Since you've got a friend in audio, I should think you'll be able to "borrow" what you need (most audio guys are good that way <wink>) rather than rent.

I have just been contacted to record a choir on Thursday evening. As of now, I have only ever filmed weddings, proposals and tutorials. This will be my first time recording within a cathedral with a 9-second echo.
...
My question regarding this, is how to capture the audio so that it is pleasing for the viewer?

Oy. Audio, especially stereo, is considerably more difficult that video, including multi-camera video.

This particular space looks quite challenging. None of the "usual suspects" when it comes to reflections. If it behaves like some of the capital rotundas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_rotunda) I've been in, it could just be a nightmare from a sound recording standpoint. I'd have to be there to know.

Since you are clearly in over your head and want some help, here's what I suggest. I'd just try to avoid any thoughts of stereo -- you aren't charging them much you say, so don't give them much. Go with mono sound. Much easier.

Then I'd gaff tape one of your lav mics (the COS-11D is an omni, just what you need) onto the baby pin on your light stand, point the capsule down, about 45 degrees relative to the riser, and raise it off the deck somewhere around 3.0 m (your Manfrotto stand maxes out around 3.6m, so somewhat less than full extension should get you there). Position it so that it's at the focal point of the curve that the group makes (gather around the mic boys and girls), or a little closer in (so that all the voices are more or less equal-distant from the mic). The mic should now be pointing about midway between the two lines of singers, but it's an omni so the exact orientation isn't really all that critical.

Then, record the rehearsal, just like you would record a groom (peaks around -12dBfs, yes?) Every time they take a break, you listen to what you just recorded (use your headphones) and decide how to adjust your setup. How? What you're listening for is:

1) Does the group give you a balanced sound, and can you hear all the various voices. In particular, can you hear the basses and the sopranos without one being a lot louder than the other? The cure for this is often rearranging the group to put the weakest sounding members closer to the mic. But the conductor usually takes care of this kind of balancing. This shouldn't really be a problem for you, but you have to check it anyway because you're the guy doing the recording.

2) Do you hear a good balance between the direct sound of the singers and the reflections from the room? This is classic signal-to-noise ratio. If you get too much noise (room) then you need to get closer to your signal. So lower the mic, or push it into the group a little more, etc. You may well find that you want the mic lower, like maybe just 2.0 m -- just to control the long reverb tail you say this room has. If you're going to make a mistake here, make it in favor of a dryer (less reverb) sound. Better to be too close than too far away, especially in this building.

There ya go. That's it. Keep it simple. Really simple. One mic. One stand. One mic position.

And yes I'm well aware that the mic stand will be in your shot. But there's only the one stand, and it's tall and very thin. And... it's the only choice you have given the time available and the equipment available. So put it up where you need it without asking, and if anyone complains tell them (in the nicest most diplomatic way of course) that it's either this or sucky audio (which has the amazing advantage of being the truth).

Then, shoot around the stand. This is one reason to keep the mic above their heads -- it keeps the mic out of frame for your video, and that's a good thing for the video.

Finally, you may have to apply a little post processing to the audio. The COS-11D has a significant high frequency rise because it's designed to be used under clothing. So you may need to apply a little of the opposite curve via a parametric EQ if the high end sounds too bright or harsh. Small price to pay for avoiding the purchase of a mic that's more appropriate for this duty, yes?

There ya go. Good luck with it, and have fun.

I guess my main question is, do I require buying three mic stands and mics in order to get the best audio possible? The lady suggested using one pointing left, one pointing centre and one off to the right.

Clearly she doesn't know anything about recording audio. And it's not her job to know, that's why she's hiring it out.

Resist, mightily, the urge to make this complicated. Resist the urge to plunge into stereo, or far worse, 5.1+ multichannel. You've got to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. And you've more than got your hands full with just the video. You really should be doing this with a full time audio recordist. Since you haven't got one, keep it extremely simple. Or your video will suffer. Been there, done that, wasn't pretty. Just sayin'.

It's been a LONG time since I did live audio, I'll defer specific mic suggestions to the others here (or your buddy) with what a current good choice would be...

I'd guess you can find a two mic mount for X/Y, but a 3 might be a special item you'd have to cobble up, several of us on DVi have custom cobbled 3+ camera heads...

FWIW, two songs is a lot less stressing than a whole CD "set", so you may well be able to pull this off brilliantly! Capture will be tricky, but there's a fair amount of "post" magic possible if your initial tracks are decent.

This may sound rather silly, but in the end, do your best to find the sweet spot in the cathedral (walk the room, sit where it feels "right"), put your best recorder/ambient mic setup at that spot (double check how it sounds with a set of headphones), you might never need the "close mics"... though you should have them for post. Most modern venues are designed for a good "house" audio experience, and since you won't be fighting crowd noise, it may be possible to get something surprisingly decent for demo purposes from a well placed recorder out in the seats!

@Bruce -
What about setting two of the Sankens in an X/Y pattern optimized to the width/arc of the choir? To get a bit of "stereo" (yeah, phase cancellation and all them additional headaches, but...)? I see he's got 3 of them... maybe one "mono", two in an X/Y and cross fingers, eyes, and other appropriate appendages? I'm presuming they are small since they are lavs, so... one stand...

If you think they might work in that configuration, it could cover the dry side of the equation, add a
house/ambient and sync it in post, might pull off a decent 5.1 "mix" with minimal equipment? All dependent on editing chops, of course!

OK, two songs, 10 minutes finished product... they are doing a "demo tape"... with little or no clue, but that's OK... it happens, been there, have a t-shirt collection...

Keep in mind that for 10 minutes of "finished" product you could be looking at a couple HOURS of retakes, especially if this is being shot live. Unlike a wedding or event video where you get one pass, and take what you get... a demo tape needs to have polish, no flaws, it's got to be good. If the talent is good enough, it could be almost a one pass affair, run multiple cameras/angles and cross your fingers - 4K will give you some advantages (pan/crop in post for wide/close), but think out what angles you want - I'd say at LEAST three camera positions, I'd probably have 3-5 and a manned camera, so you're on the right track! Keep the cameras rolling, take as many "takes" as needed - you may even be able to do some editing magic in post from different takes!

Thanks Dave... I think they're a very talented bunch, as I've heard the youth choir there before and they were pretty flawless... so I am guessing these will be very good, unless their conductor thinks otherwise! Either way, I will definitely be wearing my headphones throughout and checking different audio sources.

Back to audio...
An X/Y setup should be OK depending on the width and arc of the choir (parabolic again), if the room is dark, you might be able to place fairly close behind and above the conductor and get away with it, with minimal visual impact - otherwise lower and in front of her may work - experimentation and time are your friends here. "Room/ambient" can probably come from that Zoom - find a place a bit further back - walk the room and look for a "sweet spot" during the practice - there will be good "spots", bad spots, horrible spots, and likely a few really insanely great spots (I'm presuming from the photo that the cathedral was engineered for acoustical quality, as are many modern venues). Mix the ambient in in post - a good pair of cans in post may be as critical, or more than, the mics...

Sounds like a great option for a back up!!! Thanks!

First you've got to capture it, but the mix is also going to be interesting - I'm guessing they will want a 5.1 mix... whether they even know what that is or not, you'll be after a "surround sound" mix in the final product to best show the talent, and you want to mix to make it sound like the viewer is IN that room with all the sonorous beauty of the echo/reverb! The joyous part is you have to have a fairly "dry" source from close in to the choir... and the ambient to mix to taste in post!

Since you've got a friend in audio, I should think you'll be able to "borrow" what you need (most audio guys are good that way <wink>) rather than rent.

There's no chance that I'm offering a 5.1 mix... my audio skills are developing, and I am just looking to get good quality sound that people can enjoy listening to whilst watching the performance... I wouldn't know where to begin with surround sound?! That said, I'll have a read and try to educate myself.

Unfortunately, the friend isn't into audio as much as he's the owner of a large production company that does commercial, event and wedding videography... I don't think he's a wizard of audio as such, but definitely knowledgeable enough to produce good films. I will ask him, but I'm guessing that an audio forum contains people who are more knowledgeable...

Oy. Audio, especially stereo, is considerably more difficult that video, including multi-camera video.

This particular space looks quite challenging. None of the "usual suspects" when it comes to reflections. If it behaves like some of the capital rotundas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_rotunda) I've been in, it could just be a nightmare from a sound recording standpoint. I'd have to be there to know.

Since you are clearly in over your head and want some help, here's what I suggest. I'd just try to avoid any thoughts of stereo -- you aren't charging them much you say, so don't give them much. Go with mono sound. Much easier.

Then I'd gaff tape one of your lav mics (the COS-11D is an omni, just what you need) onto the baby pin on your light stand, point the capsule down, about 45 degrees relative to the riser, and raise it off the deck somewhere around 3.0 m (your Manfrotto stand maxes out around 3.6m, so somewhat less than full extension should get you there). Position it so that it's at the focal point of the curve that the group makes (gather around the mic boys and girls), or a little closer in (so that all the voices are more or less equal-distant from the mic). The mic should now be pointing about midway between the two lines of singers, but it's an omni so the exact orientation isn't really all that critical.

Genius. Thanks! I think that will definitely be something that I consider doing... do you gaff tape the recorder to the stand as well? As I don't think the leads from my SANKENs will reach the ground?

Then, record the rehearsal, just like you would record a groom (peaks around -12dBfs, yes?) Every time they take a break, you listen to what you just recorded (use your headphones) and decide how to adjust your setup. How? What you're listening for is:

1) Does the group give you a balanced sound, and can you hear all the various voices. In particular, can you hear the basses and the sopranos without one being a lot louder than the other? The cure for this is often rearranging the group to put the weakest sounding members closer to the mic. But the conductor usually takes care of this kind of balancing. This shouldn't really be a problem for you, but you have to check it anyway because you're the guy doing the recording.

2) Do you hear a good balance between the direct sound of the singers and the reflections from the room? This is classic signal-to-noise ratio. If you get too much noise (room) then you need to get closer to your signal. So lower the mic, or push it into the group a little more, etc. You may well find that you want the mic lower, like maybe just 2.0 m -- just to control the long reverb tail you say this room has. If you're going to make a mistake here, make it in favor of a dryer (less reverb) sound. Better to be too close than too far away, especially in this building.

There ya go. That's it. Keep it simple. Really simple. One mic. One stand. One mic position.

Thank you! The audio consideration from weddings entails having different back ups, so I will use this solution, the recorder in a sweet spot solution and I'm also hoping to do an X Y recording pattern as well, if others suggest that this may be the way forward?

If so, I am considering getting two Shure SM81-LC mics and positioning them in an X Y configuration? That way, I'll have three different options of sound for the edit and thus, three times more likely to be happy in the edit?

And yes I'm well aware that the mic stand will be in your shot. But there's only the one stand, and it's tall and very thin. And... it's the only choice you have given the time available and the equipment available. So put it up where you need it without asking, and if anyone complains tell them (in the nicest most diplomatic way of course) that it's either this or sucky audio (which has the amazing advantage of being the truth).

This made me laugh! :)

Then, shoot around the stand. This is one reason to keep the mic above their heads -- it keeps the mic out of frame for your video, and that's a good thing for the video.

Finally, you may have to apply a little post processing to the audio. The COS-11D has a significant high frequency rise because it's designed to be used under clothing. So you may need to apply a little of the opposite curve via a parametric EQ if the high end sounds too bright or harsh. Small price to pay for avoiding the purchase of a mic that's more appropriate for this duty, yes?

There ya go. Good luck with it, and have fun.

Sounds like a great solution! Thank you!!! Would you recommend any audio software to work alongside FCPX? Or will FCPX be able to add in a little of the opposite curve?

Clearly she doesn't know anything about recording audio. And it's not her job to know, that's why she's hiring it out.

Resist, mightily, the urge to make this complicated. Resist the urge to plunge into stereo, or far worse, 5.1+ multichannel. You've got to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. And you've more than got your hands full with just the video. You really should be doing this with a full time audio recordist. Since you haven't got one, keep it extremely simple. Or your video will suffer. Been there, done that, wasn't pretty. Just sayin'.

Thanks Bruce! I'll keep that in mind throughout! I dislike being pushed beyond the outer limits (as I'm guessing anyone does), so I'm not looking for anything that's going to be drastically complicated... I'm guessing I can do a decent job of this, but I have also explained my experience to the client.

It's been a LONG time since I did live audio, I'll defer specific mic suggestions to the others here (or your buddy) with what a current good choice would be...

I'd guess you can find a two mic mount for X/Y, but a 3 might be a special item you'd have to cobble up, several of us on DVi have custom cobbled 3+ camera heads...

FWIW, two songs is a lot less stressing than a whole CD "set", so you may well be able to pull this off brilliantly! Capture will be tricky, but there's a fair amount of "post" magic possible if your initial tracks are decent.

This may sound rather silly, but in the end, do your best to find the sweet spot in the cathedral (walk the room, sit where it feels "right"), put your best recorder/ambient mic setup at that spot (double check how it sounds with a set of headphones), you might never need the "close mics"... though you should have them for post. Most modern venues are designed for a good "house" audio experience, and since you won't be fighting crowd noise, it may be possible to get something surprisingly decent for demo purposes from a well placed recorder out in the seats!

Thanks very much! Seriously, I was hoping for a reply by tomorrow evening, but you have all overwhelmed me with help. I really appreciate it!

Just a thought - any possibility of a higher fixed camera position and a lower mic stand close to the conductor (or further back if it sounds good - the further back it is the greater the odds it will be out of view of a higher camera, Or it will just look lower and therefore less intrusive.) Whenever I have a chance I tend to put the main camera in the balcony and a single M-S or X-Y mic set behind the conductor. This way with the mics lower than the camera the mics don't get in the way of the performers' faces and are mostly rather unnoticeable as they're behind the conductor. Of course I don't usually record in a cathedral either

I like mics a bit higher than the group, but on the other hand the normal audience in a setting like this is sitting a bit below the performers and if it sounds good to the audience it might sound good to the mics. Worth a try.

I've sometimes had good luck with mics back in the audience in a large hall, but the reverberation characteristics of this space would worry me so I'd start close to the conductor and move back and listen.

The conductor will balance the group so it sounds right to him/her so I wouldn't worry too much about not hearing the folks on the end

Yes, we typically like to position choir microphones significantly ABOVE the singers heads. However in such a "wet" space you may be able to get away with something much lower-profile. Perhaps even a single-point stereo mic(s) just ahead of the conductor's music stand, etc.

Oh, and a GoPro on the conductor attached to the her music stand (or to that mic stand just in front of her) makes an exciting angle for insert shots. Especially aimed up to see that ceiling.

For example....

https://youtu.be/USONn44CcsA

M+S and X-Y are the safest approaches, as they're co-incident. You won't have to worry about phasing issues that come about from spaced mics. M+S is the safer of the two, as you can go mono and add the amount of stereo effect that you prefer in post. With X-Y, you get what you get.

The main thing isn't technical at all. It's to play down expectations. Way down. That way, if the sound is poor, nobody will complain. If it happens to sound great, you're a hero. Just make sure to monitor things and set the gain well. If there's no audio or the audio clips, it doesn't matter how good and well-placed your mics were.

Best of luck!

Just a thought - any possibility of a higher fixed camera position and a lower mic stand close to the conductor (or further back if it sounds good - the further back it is the greater the odds it will be out of view of a higher camera, Or it will just look lower and therefore less intrusive.) Whenever I have a chance I tend to put the main camera in the balcony and a single M-S or X-Y mic set behind the conductor. This way with the mics lower than the camera the mics don't get in the way of the performers' faces and are mostly rather unnoticeable as they're behind the conductor. Of course I don't usually record in a cathedral either

I like mics a bit higher than the group, but on the other hand the normal audience in a setting like this is sitting a bit below the performers and if it sounds good to the audience it might sound good to the mics. Worth a try.

I've sometimes had good luck with mics back in the audience in a large hall, but the reverberation characteristics of this space would worry me so I'd start close to the conductor and move back and listen.

The conductor will balance the group so it sounds right to him/her so I wouldn't worry too much about not hearing the folks on the end

I don't believe that there is a higher fixed point, unfortunately. The Met Cathedral in Liverpool is a very spacious ad generally flat surface throughout. The only steps that I've seen lead up to the very top of the building, and there's no way I'm going up 100m or so! :)

I'm fascinated by the MS way of doing this, and have watched the following YouTube video, which I assume shows how to do it?

How to do M-S (Mid-Side) Microphone Recording Technique | Box Studio Presents - YouTube

Despite my interest, it looks like a complicated method for a first time recording by the audio engineer in question, who has very little understanding of sound beyond recording dialogue (me).

I've found a mic that does this on its own: The Pearl MS 8CL... but I don't think I could afford such a microphone.

Thanks for your considerations! If possible, could you disclose a recommendation for two mics that you would purchase to do the MS recording?

Yes, we typically like to position choir microphones significantly ABOVE the singers heads. However in such a "wet" space you may be able to get away with something much lower-profile. Perhaps even a single-point stereo mic(s) just ahead of the conductor's music stand, etc.

Oh, and a GoPro on the conductor attached to the her music stand (or to that mic stand just in front of her) makes an exciting angle for insert shots. Especially aimed up to see that ceiling.

For example....

https://youtu.be/USONn44CcsA

Could you recommend a single-point stereo mic?

The GoPro idea is unreal! I love it! I think that'll be a great angle to use! I will have a look to see if I can find a clamp to attach to the conductor's stand! Thanks!!

M+S and X-Y are the safest approaches, as they're co-incident. You won't have to worry about phasing issues that come about from spaced mics. M+S is the safer of the two, as you can go mono and add the amount of stereo effect that you prefer in post. With X-Y, you get what you get.

The main thing isn't technical at all. It's to play down expectations. Way down. That way, if the sound is poor, nobody will complain. If it happens to sound great, you're a hero. Just make sure to monitor things and set the gain well. If there's no audio or the audio clips, it doesn't matter how good and well-placed your mics were.

Best of luck!

OK. My main issue now is that I don't have anywhere to go to buy these microphones. I need to order them online today or tomorrow at the very latest. Preferrably today, as I would like to experiment with them before going to the rehearsal (should it happen).

Can anyone recommend stands, mics, etc. that you would go for that would equate to under $1000? Again, I'm looking to buy quality products, as I have with the mics that I have purchased already (11Ds and 416p).

Thanks everyone. I'll continue to learn and read as much as possible over the next few hours!

Also, as my Sennheiser 416p is a hypercardioid microphone, does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir that I'm shooting? And thus, should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?

Thanks again, everyone!

@Bruce -
What about setting two of the Sankens in an X/Y pattern optimized to the width/arc of the choir?

XY requires cardioid mics. That's because it has to make the stereo image out of loudness variations only, as coincident pairs have no time differences by definition. The Cos-11Ds are omnis, so both mics would record everything the same -- no loudness differences. XY with omnis doesn't give you a stereo image; you get instead two nearly identical copies of the same mono image.

It's issues like this that have me urging the OP to go mono. He doesn't have time to learn all the ins and outs of stereo. And if this thing is going to to be used for web content, most of the devices used to view it are mono anyway (smartphones, tablets, etc.).

"Sennheiser 416p , does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir "
- Yes.. and reverb would be a freak'n nightmare. An inherent negative characteristic of interference tube mics in 'live' spaces.
" should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?"
- Only if you wish to go the M/S route.. NOT recommended for the inexperienced.

XY requires cardioid mics. That's because it has to make the stereo image out of loudness variations only, as coincident pairs have no time differences by definition. The Cos-11Ds are omnis, so both mics would record everything the same -- no loudness differences. XY with omnis doesn't give you a stereo image; you get instead two nearly identical copies of the same mono image.

It's issues like this that have me urging the OP to go mono. He doesn't have time to learn all the ins and outs of stereo. And if this thing is going to to be used for web content, most of the devices used to view it are mono anyway (smartphones, tablets, etc.).

Totally understand your recommendations, Bruce. If I were to purchase a mic to do mono better than the SANKEN COS 11D, what would you suggest?

Going in with an extremely tiny mic leaves me a bit open to criticism, and I also require the mics to stay in place in a position where I cannot see them, so I'd much prefer being able to see the mic pointing towards the back of the choir with my eyes from any position, and monitoring with my headphones...

Whilst I realise there's a complicated aspect of stereo, would you definitely reject the idea of using MS setup?

My friend, who I mentioned earlier, has suggested two cardioid microphones at either side (both left and right), as well as one above the choir. He's filmed there before, a couple of years ago, and this was the setup he chose then. I don't think he has the film to hand to show me though.

I'd prefer to use a simpler setup than this, and even have an MS setup, and a mono setup too... but I understand that I lack time. I've watched a tonne of videos now, but obviously still have no experience.

"Sennheiser 416p , does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir "
- Yes.. and reverb would be a freak'n nightmare. An inherent negative characteristic of interference tube mics in 'live' spaces.
" should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?"
- Only if you wish to go the M/S route.. NOT recommended for the inexperienced.

Thanks Rick. MS pattern out of the window then, would you also consider to shoot mono as suggested by Bruce? And if so, which mic should I purchase for this event? If better quality equals better audio, I'd be willing to spend up to $1000, as I am actually growing to love audio as a new interest, and would like to become more knowledgeable and dedicate more time to the skill of capturing great audio in a variety of spaces.

...do you gaff tape the recorder to the stand as well? As I don't think the leads from my SANKENs will reach the ground?

If you don't mind a recorder bulging out from the stand about head high in your shot, I guess I'm OK with it too. Otherwise you might want to find a way to cable it so the recorder is somewhere out of your shot, like on the ground.

How are you going to monitor the audio? Not monitoring the audio is the basic equivalent of using the camera without looking at the viewfinder. You wouldn't do that, would you?

The audio consideration from weddings entails having different back ups, so I will use this solution, the recorder in a sweet spot solution and I'm also hoping to do an X Y recording pattern as well, if others suggest that this may be the way forward?

If so, I am considering getting two Shure SM81-LC mics and positioning them in an X Y configuration? That way, I'll have three different options of sound for the edit and thus, three times more likely to be happy in the edit?

I'm merely an adviser, you can of course do anything you want. My advice remains to keep it simple.

XY is seldom the answer in a decent acoustical space, because it seldom does a good job rendering that space. The use of cards effects placement, often cardioid arrays like XY and ORTF end up farther back than omni arrays. And you also have to check on balance because of the fall off due to the cardioid polar patterns (depends on your mic placement and the ensemble's staging). Then there's the low end roll off from cards which may have you doing some more EQ in post. I could go on, but I'm just showing you the tip of the stereo iceberg here.

However, if you do plan on continuing down this path, I would point you toward a stereo pair of Shure KSM141. These sound really quite good, and will be useful to you after this initial session, and at this initial session you can use them in omni for an AB pair if you really and truly have to go stereo. Which I don't recommend.

But if you do decide you just absolutely have to go stereo, I still suggest using one of your COS-11ds for a mono recording also as I described earlier. Because I'm fairly certain the mono recording will save your bacon. Which is the purpose of any backup, yes?

If you don't mind a recorder bulging out from the stand about head high in your shot, I guess I'm OK with it too. Otherwise you might want to find a way to cable it so the recorder is somewhere out of your shot, like on the ground.

How are you going to monitor the audio? Not monitoring the audio is the basic equivalent of using the camera without looking at the viewfinder. You wouldn't do that, would you?

Nope. :) I will monitor the audio with closed back headphones. I have a pair of AKGs that are pretty decent.

I'm merely an adviser, you can of course do anything you want. My advice remains to keep it simple.

XY is seldom the answer in a decent acoustical space, because it seldom does a good job rendering that space. The use of cards effects placement, often cardioid arrays like XY and ORTF end up farther back than omni arrays. And you also have to check on balance because of the fall off due to the cardioid polar patterns (depends on your mic placement and the ensemble's staging). Then there's the low end roll off from cards which may have you doing some more EQ in post. I could go on, but I'm just showing you the tip of the stereo iceberg here.

However, if you do plan on continuing down this path, I would point you toward a stereo pair of Shure KSM141. These sound really quite good, and will be useful to you after this initial session, and at this initial session you can use them in omni for an AB pair if you really and truly have to go stereo. Which I don't recommend.

But if you do decide you just absolutely have to go stereo, I still suggest using one of your COS-11ds for a mono recording also as I described earlier. Because I'm fairly certain the mono recording will save your bacon. Which is the purpose of any backup, yes?

Most definitely. Thanks! And if I would prefer to buy an omnidirectional mic to shoot only mono, as you suggest, which microphone would you advise me to go for then?

Thanks for the point towards the Shures, but the more you discuss the disadvantages of stereo and an amateur, I am coming round more and more to the mono recording and keeping things simple.

Thanks for taking the time to help me, Bruce. I really appreciate being able to be advised by someone who is a much more knowledgeable other. Thanks!!!

*EDIT* Having read more about the Shure mics, would you suggest buying one of those over the 11Ds, as they can also be configured as omni directional microphones? And I assume that with a large diaphragm, they will be much more competent at getting better audio.

*EDITX2* Unfortunately, the Shure KSM 141 is out of stock in the UK and supposedly discontinued. Did Shure replace this model with a different one? Thanks!

Totally understand your recommendations, Bruce. If I were to purchase a mic to do mono better than the SANKEN COS 11D, what would you suggest?

Mein Himmel, this is turning into a mess. People get into religious arguments over omnis for choir in a big acoustic space. Just about any of the "biggies" will do fine for you, it all depends on what you like. Sennheiser, Schoeps (my personal favs), Neumann, Microtech Gefell, etc. all make excellent mics, all make several omnis, all a little different.

The thing is, the lavalier will do fine. The small size of the capsule will give you a little more noise, this is true. Will you be able to tell over the noise from your recorder? I doubt it. The small size also means that the mic is closer to the "perfect omni" at all frequencies. IOW, the body of the mic out behind the capsule doesn't offer any real size to shadow the capsule and result in slightly directional qualities at higher frequencies like bigger mics (think SDCs) do. This is why I said earlier that pointing the mic at the top of your lightstand wasn't that big of a deal. Because it's a lavalier, and it's size is working in your favor. A bigger mic, and SDC, wants to be pointed correctly, even the omnis.

The biggest problem with a lavalier is that it's typically an unbalanced plug-in power device, which leaves it open to RFI, like cell phones, etc. But in a closed building with only the choir and a few others present, this won't likely be much of a problem -- none-the-less, this is why you must monitor the audio. In case it becomes a problem, you need to hear it to know about it. You aren't likely going to be able to fix the RF hits in post without leaving audible artifacts unless you have some expensive software and some extensive experience, and even then, some RF hits are just unfixable. Better to prevent it in the first place, which is why the movie industry (where time really is money) came up with balanced cables and phantom power for mics. That's the real reason to move up to SDCs for this duty.

Classical and acoustic location recording is much more about mic placement than it is about the mic itself. A good pro can get excellent results out of just about any mic. They may like working with some more than others, which is why they buy what they buy. But they all know it's mostly placement and attention to detail, and trusting your ears.

And I assume that with a large diaphragm, they will be much more competent at getting better audio.

They will be a little better, but not "much more competent". You know what the Cos-11d sounds like on voice, and voice is what you're going to be recording. How much better do you think you're going to get? There are some advantages to the bigger mics, but "much more competent" is really an overstatement.

Mein Himmel, this is turning into a mess. People get into religious arguments over omnis for choir in a big acoustic space. Just about any of the "biggies" will do fine for you, it all depends on what you like. Sennheiser, Schoeps (my personal favs), Neumann, Microtech Gefell, etc. all make excellent mics, all make several omnis, all a little different.

Thanks Bruce! I've looked at Sennheiser (seem to go from £100 to £1400 and nothing in between?) and Schoeps (I can see why they'd be your favourite, but it looks like about £1300 before you can actually get one?!). If you can recommend one in the £500 range, I would be extremely thankful.

The thing is, the lavalier will do fine. The small size of the capsule will give you a little more noise, this is true. Will you be able to tell over the noise from your recorder? I doubt it. The small size also means that the mic is closer to the "perfect omni" at all frequencies. IOW, the body of the mic out behind the capsule doesn't offer any real size to shadow the capsule and result in slightly directional qualities at higher frequencies like bigger mics (think SDCs) do. This is why I said earlier that pointing the mic at the top of your lightstand wasn't that big of a deal. Because it's a lavalier, and it's size is working in your favor. A bigger mic, and SDC, wants to be pointed correctly, even the omnis.

Thanks... I can see how that would be the case after reading your explanation... I think it would be great to have two microphones running simultaneously, so that if one recording isn't as great as the other, then I have the choice.

The biggest problem with a lavalier is that it's typically an unbalanced plug-in power device, which leaves it open to RFI, like cell phones, etc. But in a closed building with only the choir and a few others present, this won't likely be much of a problem -- none-the-less, this is why you must monitor the audio. In case it becomes a problem, you need to hear it to know about it. You aren't likely going to be able to fix the RF hits in post without leaving audible artifacts unless you have some expensive software and some extensive experience, and even then, some RF hits are just unfixable. Better to prevent it in the first place, which is why the movie industry (where time really is money) came up with balanced cables and phantom power for mics. That's the real reason to move up to SDCs for this duty.

Classical and acoustic location recording is much more about mic placement than it is about the mic itself. A good pro can get excellent results out of just about any mic. They may like working with some more than others, which is why they buy what they buy. But they all know it's mostly placement and attention to detail, and trusting your ears.

Thanks Bruce! I think my friend might be willing to come along with me for the shoot. His experience will be a great help. I think if I can monitor the sound a lot, I should be able to find a good mic placement. I would be disappointed in myself if I couldn't, especially after reading everyone's tips here.

They will be a little better, but not "much more competent". You know what the Cos-11d sounds like on voice, and voice is what you're going to be recording. How much better do you think you're going to get? There are some advantages to the bigger mics, but "much more competent" is really an overstatement.

Yeah, true. Guess I just see it as being great at recording one voice, and that a bigger mic would suit a greater audience / choir... probably a misconception.

Thanks! If you could give me an idea of what you would consider buying on a budget that is a maximum £1000

Craig, I"m not in a position to give you any advice on gear because my audio expertise is most likely not much better then yours but I just want to share my thoughts on this matter.

If I would been asked to shoot this and record audio I would have refused if I had to deal with the audio myself, I would not spend 1K on audio gear if I was not aware what I was getting into. You ofcourse have to start somewhere but what you have been asked to do is a specialist job.

I would have hired a audio specialist to take care the audio part, you might say that your client doesn't have the funds to pay for that additional cost but if you really wanted to add this to your portfolio you could charge whatever they can pay and take the cost of the audio expert on yourself which can be an investment if that particular job ends up getting more inquiries for similar recordings. And for those requests you will be able to charge accordingly. Or you might learn from working together with a freelancer that is an audio expert so you get to know what you exactly need to do it yourself after a while.

I know you mean well and you want to do them a favor but you might end up with an average product that you can't use to promote yourself and your current client might be not satisfied. Just my 2 eurocents, I do hope ofcourse that it will work out alright for you.

A real "sleeper" microphone is the Line Audio CM3 Cardioid.
They currently sell for 999 SEK = 78 GBP = 119 USD
I would have 2 or 4 or 6 of them except that they seem to be perpetually back-ordered because the guy who makes them can't keep up with the demand.
Line Audio Design - Made in Sweden (http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html)

They are the subject of one of the longest discussions (179279 views) over on GearSlutz:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/644759-cm3-really-good.html

I'm not all that familiar with European vendors, but when I look at what is available on the Thomann website, it looks like there are a variety of possibilities such as
Rode NT4 stereo: Rode NT4 - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/rode_nt4.htm) I like mine a lot. One of my favorites.
Or: Rode NT5 Matched Pair - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/rode_nt_5.htm)
Or a pair of: Beyerdynamic MC-950 - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_mc_950.htm)
Or a pair of: AKG C 451 B - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/akg_c451b.htm)
Or: Rode NT55 MP - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/rode_nt55_mp.htm)

With the individual mics, you would need a "stereo bar" to mount a pair of them in ORTF (or whatever) configuration.

I use tall Manfrotto "light stands" for microphones in large spaces. Just use an adapter between the 5/8 inch ("baby") pin and the microphone mount.

Craig, I"m not in a position to give you any advice on gear because my audio expertise is most likely not much better then yours but I just want to share my thoughts on this matter.

If I would been asked to shoot this and record audio I would have refused if I had to deal with the audio myself, I would not spend 1K on audio gear if I was not aware what I was getting into. You ofcourse have to start somewhere but what you have been asked to do is a specialist job.

I would have hired a audio specialist to take care the audio part, you might say that your client doesn't have the funds to pay for that additional cost but if you really wanted to add this to your portfolio you could charge whatever they can pay and take the cost of the audio expert on yourself which can be an investment if that particular job ends up getting more inquiries for similar recordings. And for those requests you will be able to charge accordingly. Or you might learn from working together with a freelancer that is an audio expert so you get to know what you exactly need to do it yourself after a while.

I know you mean well and you want to do them a favor but you might end up with an average product that you can't use to promote yourself and your current client might be not satisfied. Just my 2 eurocents, I do hope ofcourse that it will work out alright for you.

Thanks Noa. I have contacted my client today to explain this, and also said that if they do not expect the audio to be of a high standard, and that they accept the best that I can offer them as a first timer, then I am happy to do it still. Alternatively, they can leave it. I suggested the recording take place at a later date when the CD has been recorded as well. I'll wait to hear of the response from the client, as I got the feeling that the footage was more important to them than the audio.

As for refusing the option to shoot, I can definitely understand that response and may live to regret not doing the same. It did cross my mind at the time, but in the same vain, it would be great to pull this off, given that I've explained my shortcomings and limitations of the gear that I own.

As I've done the above, I'm hoping that they'll reconsider or have realistic expectations. My friend has offerd to come along for the rehearsal and to have a go at recording the audio with me. I can then replicate that for the shoot if humanly possible. We'll see though.

Thanks for your input though, Noa. Always appreciated! And I'm sure your knowledge of audio far outweighs that of my own too!

A real "sleeper" microphone is the Line Audio CM3 Cardioid.
They currently sell for 999 SEK = 78 GBP = 119 USD
I would have 2 or 4 or 6 of them except that they seem to be perpetually back-ordered because the guy who makes them can't keep up with the demand.
Line Audio Design - Made in Sweden (http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html)

They are the subject of one of the longest discussions (179279 views) over on GearSlutz:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/644759-cm3-really-good.html

I'm not all that familiar with European vendors, but when I look at what is available on the Thomann website, it looks like there are a variety of possibilities such as
Rode NT4 stereo: Rode NT4 - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/rode_nt4.htm) I like mine a lot. One of my favorites.
Or: Rode NT5 Matched Pair - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/rode_nt_5.htm)
Or a pair of: Beyerdynamic MC-950 - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/beyerdynamic_mc_950.htm)
Or a pair of: AKG C 451 B - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/akg_c451b.htm)
Or: Rode NT55 MP - Thomann UK (http://www.thomann.de/gb/rode_nt55_mp.htm)

With the individual mics, you would need a "stereo bar" to mount a pair of them in ORTF (or whatever) configuration.

I use tall Manfrotto "light stands" for microphones in large spaces. Just use an adapter between the 5/8 inch ("baby") pin and the microphone mount.

Does the RODE NT4 Stereo provide as good a recording as the other mics?

Thanks for your input! If you were to double the budget and buy an omnidirectional microphone, which would you recommend? Appreciate your help, as I'm going to need to make a decision this evening.

And I'm sure your knowledge of audio far outweighs that of my own too!

That's actually the only area I consider myself being a novice in, I have worked out a workflow to cover my main audio at weddings but when I read topics in the audio section of this forum I don't understand a thing they are saying. :)

That's actually the only area I consider myself being a novice in, I have worked out a workflow to cover my main audio at weddings but when I read topics in the audio section of this forum I don't understand a thing they are saying. :)

Hahaha! :) I am trying to learn this area, can only be a helpful thing long term! :) See what happens!

What about purchasing one of these?

AKG C414 XLII Reference Multi-Pattern Condenser Microphone

It works in an omni directional, but also many others... would give me room to grow in the future, and could also be a blessing to try different modes if one didn't work so well within the cathedral itself?

*EDIT* I've read that it does a decent job of vocals, but not an amazing job, as it's more suited to instruments.

Why don't you rent a stereo pair of good microphones? This looks like a local resource:

Hire: Microphones - Neumann, Royer, Soundfield, DPA, Sennheiser (http://www.studiocare.com/hire-microphones/)

They may even have suggestions for recording in that venue.

Why don't you rent a stereo pair of good microphones? This looks like a local resource:

Hire: Microphones - Neumann, Royer, Soundfield, DPA, Sennheiser (http://www.studiocare.com/hire-microphones/)

They may even have suggestions for recording in that venue.

I always perceive this as wasting money, as I'll no doubt need an omni or cardioid mic eventually, or a good pair of stereo mics... I was tempted to go with Bruce's advice with a single omnidirectional microphone as well?

I am interested in anyone who can advise me of an omnidirectional mic to use? Quite a few people have mentioned how a stereo recording may be too much for me as a beginner?

What about purchasing one of these?

AKG C414 XLII Reference Multi-Pattern Condenser Microphone

They work well for spot mics, not so well as main pair mics. LDCs have some interesting strengths and some interesting weaknesses. One of the weaknesses is how they perform off-axis, and it's largely an artifact of the size of the diaphragm. And for main pair work, off-axis is critical (IOW, you can easily hear it). The effect is that the reflection can sound colored compared to the direct sound. That's... disconcerting, and it calls attention to itself.

One of the problems with multi-pattern mics is that they form the multiple different polar patterns by using a pair of back-to-back diaphragms. They use these in different ways to make the various patterns. Which is fine, but you can't get a pure pressure omni this way. All the patterns are pressure gradient patterns. What this means is that it can give you an omni polar pattern, but it won't really sound like a "true" omni. Just like the figure 8 pattern is back to back cardioids, and not a true single diaphragm figure 8. I'm just sayin' that there are compromises made to get the different patterns. For most studio work it's fine. For main pair work sometimes it's not.

Quite a few people have mentioned how a stereo recording may be too much for me as a beginner?

I'm not saying it's too much for a beginner; everyone has to start somewhere. I'm saying there's learning curves to be climbed, and you have said you have very limited time. It's the lack of time and resources that makes me think: keep it simple.

Thanks Bruce.

As a final post, in the hope of getting a direct answer, can someone recommend a good omnidirectional microphone to purchase?

I am feeling the squeeze of time, and realise that I must purchase in the next few hours in anticipation of the microphone arriving by Tuesday.

Thank you to everyone who has offered their expertise. It's been a fascinating weekend in which I have only dipped a toe into the world of audio recording. I will continue to learn before and after the event, as this is a fascinating and important aspect of video that I wish to explore and improve further.

Thanks again!

There are many good omnidirectional microphones. But the possibilities are dramatically reduced by your logistics of delivery time and who your possible vendors are.

Renting is not a waste of money. You can get far more high-end gear by renting based on the immediate need. Especially if for a type of production you rarely do.

Not clear what is the fascination with omnidirectional mics? I almost never use them, and they will be more fiddly to deploy in that kind of space, IME.

There are many good omnidirectional microphones. But the possibilities are dramatically reduced by your logistics of delivery time and who your possible vendors are.

Renting is not a waste of money. You can get far more high-end gear by renting based on the immediate need. Especially if for a type of production you rarely do.

Not clear what is the fascination with omnidirectional mics? I almost never use them, and they will be more fiddly to deploy in that kind of space, IME.

Do you think a caridoid would work better? It was just a recommendation to use an omnidirectional microphone in this thread.

True... but I would prefer to purchase if I can get a very good sounding mic for around £5-700. Even if it's not an application that I will use regularly, it is still an extra audio tool in my kit compared to shipping back an audio tool to a company.

Would you advise just picking up the Rode NT4? Do you think it would serve well as a solo mic setup if I raise it to three metres as previously discussed?

I always perceive this as wasting money, as I'll no doubt need an omni or cardioid mic eventually, or a good pair of stereo mics... I was tempted to go with Bruce's advice with a single omnidirectional microphone as well?

Renting lets you try different microphones to see which ones you should buy. Your stated budget doesn't support buying a set of high quality microphones. Therefore, rather than wasting money on a less than ideal asset I would rent a high end pair of cardioids and set them up in one of the standard stereo configurations. Save your money for when you can afford great microphones.

I also think you'd get decent results with your COS-11, so no disagreement with Bruce's suggestion. There are many ways to accomplish a task and everything comes with tradeoffs.

Renting lets you try different microphones to see which ones you should buy. Your stated budget doesn't support buying a set of high quality microphones. Therefore, rather than wasting money on a less than ideal asset I would rent a high end pair of cardioids and set them up in one of the standard stereo configurations. Save your money for when you can afford great microphones.

I also think you'd get decent results with your COS-11, so no disagreement with Bruce's suggestion. There are many ways to accomplish a task and everything comes with tradeoffs.

Thanks Jim. I was just wary that I have not done stereo before.

I'll look into renting. Thanks, but how much do you need to spend to get 'great'?

Craig,

I just read this whole thing. You are talking to some very knowledgeable people here. I am not going to make a mic recommendation your looking for, they know more than me about that.

There is one thing I feel very strongly about that has not been said enough. No matter what you do there is only one place that Zoom H4 can go. That is in your HANDS. You are using it as your mixer and your recorder. You will also be monitoring it. Having it taped to a stand someplace will not work. You need to have total control of it. This is not a set it and forget it situation. Everyone agrees monitoring is critical, what good will it do you if you can't adjust what you hear?

Kind Regards,

Steve