Sony released a teaser for IBC. Any guesses as to what it will be?


http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-new-fs-e-mount-4k-camcorder-to-be-announced-soon/#disqus_thread

I posted this in Area 51.

Initially I thought it was the 1'' fixed lens Exmor R NX100 successor with 4K, but once I found out it was E-mount, I then thought about either a EA50 replacement with a different form factor or a VG30 4K version.

No clue on sensor size. APS-C? Super35?

on the image the ea50 and the fs7 are already shown and it says a new "fs camera" so probably the fs100 replacement.

on the image the ea50 and the fs7 are already shown and it says a new "fs camera" so probably the fs100 replacement.

That's not the EA50. That's the FS700, which has just seen a big price drop. I'm thinking it will be more professional than the EA50. Since it's shown between the FS7 and FS700, I'm thinking it'll have an S35 size sensor.

oops, you are right, it's a fs700.

The outline looks like a mini FS7 with a EVF on the back. A FS3 or FS5 perhaps. think a squat little body like that would be great, the FS7 turned me off because of its size. If the FS700 is $4k and the FS7 is $8k, I'd expect this one to "fit" right at $6k. As for the rest, we'll just have to wait and see, Sony seems to surprise me more often than not with features on budget cameras like these.

Yes, the image shows:
A7S > FS700 > FS??? > FS7

Curious thing here is that they include the A7S in the FS-series line-up. That combined with another image with the text saying "Missing Piece" enhances the feeling I've had for month that the new FS camera will be full frame. That would make the series:
FF > S35 > FF > S35.

To me, at that position ($5-6000) a full frame camera is the only thing that really makes sense.
Making something similar but better than the FS700 and you have the FS7. Making something just smaller/cheaper/less functions than the FS7 just makes it an FS700 with XAVC.
With a Full Frame camera they can leave out quite a lot (high frame rates, some higher end codecs etc) to make sure it doesn't quite compete with the FS7 while still have something unique to warrant the price and cause a buzz. And they would finally have a camcorder that's a perfect fit for the 28-135 cine lens.

The silhouette looks like an FS7 with a viewfinder in the back so I assume they will have many similarities. Maybe the built in shoulder pad etc is gone to make it slightly smaller?

Really excited for this one!

Missing Piece...

Full Frame a7s Sensor for super high ISO
4K internal
1080 120P, 60P, 30P, 24P
xavc 10-bit 422 color space
SDXC cards

built in 1920x1080 5" monitor with scopes

looking forward to seeing what it is for real. lol

If it's full frame, it would make that 28-135mm lens make sense.

The first thing that stuck out to me was the "tulip" shaped lens hood on the thing, which implies a zoom, and typically a rather wide zoom. Are we looking at a fixed lens here, or are they also announcing a companion to their 28-135 f power zoom, perhaps a 17-55 or something more useful on a super 35 sensor (which I think this is going to end up being).

Are we looking at a fixed lens here

DVX200 competitor?

I blogged my thoughts about it last month:
Sony FS100 discontinued, “Sony FS1” coming soon? | David Peterson (http://ironfilm.co.nz/sony-fs100-discontinued-sony-fs1-coming-soon/)

I blogged my thoughts about it last month:
Sony FS100 discontinued, “Sony FS1” coming soon? | David Peterson (http://ironfilm.co.nz/sony-fs100-discontinued-sony-fs1-coming-soon/)
Think you're giving the FS100 too much credit. It's gone. Too long ago. Ancient. The FS100 will have nothing to do with what's coming. FS700? Maybe a tiny bit. The new thing will be a mixture between A7S and FS7 mostly. Maybe even have 5-axis stabilisation of A7II?..

Oh, so a VG900 replacement it may be then, just with much better EVFs and a proper LCD placement.

The FS100 form factor was common in it's time; I'd be shocked to see them use it again. I'd expect something more like an FS-7 form factor.

Despite my statement that it having a FF sensor would explain the 28-135, I can't see them putting a FF sensor on the "FS1" while the FS7 has a Super 35.

Oh, so a VG900 replacement it may be then, just with much better EVFs and a proper LCD placement.
No. It will be something that fits into the FS line.
My guess is it will have much in common with the FS7.

Here are my crazy guesses for this thing:

I suspect that the "FS-?" will be Sony's answer to market against the Panasonic AG-DVX200. Yes, they are going to be very different types of cameras but they both might be in similar price points and both aimed at some degree of ENG work.(even though fighting big sensor focus is not fun for ENG work)

I think Sony will draw very clear and careful lines between this "FS-?" and their current FS7. The FS7 is a huge hit for Sony and they are NOT about cannibalize themselves and put unnecessary pressure on the FS7's sales numbers.

Here goes....

SENSOR:
The "FS-?" will have a FF sensor - FF and Super32 are often thought of as different markets with Super35 as the true "pro" one. Sony is also investing heavily into it's new FF lens lineup. A new full frame "FS-?" will certainly help to move more Sony FF lenses from the store shelves. It also gives the Sony 28-135mm FF Cine lens a new home.Today, this lens not as not well suited to the current FS7's S35 crop.

FRAME SIZE:
I strongly suspect that Sony will keep this a 1080/UHD camera. I'm guessing that Sony will not allow DCI-4k as to help keep pressure away from the FS7. The Panasonic DVX200 does have DCI-4k but I just don't think Sony is willing challenge that feature. They will hold stubborn on this. Also, I HOPE is uses a sensor with a bit more resolution than the A7s. The A7s only does true UHD in FF. In Super35 mode, it's got allot less than the 8 mega pixels needed for UHD. (But then again, this might be the market separation tactic that Sony wants)

FRAME RATES:
1080 will see up to 120p and UHD will have 60p. I think that Sony would rather leave UHD at 30p but I think that Panasonic will be twisting Sony's arm on this one. I think Sony might hate doing 60p on this "FS-?" but in the end they will do it.

CODEC:
1080 - The Sony "FS-?" should be similar to the very cheap Sony X70 in 1080 HD and that means 10bit, 4:2:2. Sony is focusing on 4k now and is very willing to "loosen up" on the old 1080 marketing restrictions. I'm sure internal UHD will probably be locked at 8 bit, 4:2:0 with 4:2:2 over it's HDMI port. I see no chance in Hell where internal UHD will be anything more than this. I'm sure this will also be a long GOP only and no intra-frame options.

CONNECTIONS:
I'm betting we will see the usual 3G SDI for 1080 and HDMI 2.0 for UHD 60p.

SLOG-2:
I think Sony will want this camera to be limited to 12 stops of dynamic range. The Panasonic DVX200 and all the other sub $5k players do 12 stops and I think Sony will be happy to just match it. SLOG-3 and more than 12 stops of DR will be the solid domain of the current FS7 and I don't think Sony is willing to add more DR to this lower model. Plus, you really need 10bit anyway to normalize SLOG-3.

If this cameras has these features and is in the $5000 range, I'm totally getting one. (Hope my wife is not reading!) I suspect,..no, I KNOW that it's going to be a FANTASTIC low light performer.

There are three most likely calls for what the front end will be. First is using same s35 sensor as the FS7 - which I feel a bit unlikely, would make it difficult to differentiate from the FS7.

Next two most obvious would be to use either of the front ends from the A7R ii OR the new RX10/100, either combined with video oriented back end. Is it confirmed it will be "E" mount? I don't see that in the Sony tease, only the rumour sites?

If true, if it IS E mount, it points most heavily to the first of those scenarios, the full frame sensor from the A7R ii with a video centric body. Personally, I can see room for both. A full frame camera with interchangeable lenses, and a camera based on the new RX10 sensor and lens, but both made far more video friendly and with full broadcast I-frame only codec etc.
I suspect that the "FS-?" will be Sony's answer to market against the Panasonic AG-DVX200.
Yes - I really find it strange why Panasonic announce a product so long before it's availability to actually buy. It would seem to give their competitors chance to best tweak their own product launches, and for that matter tweak the specifications and prices of what they're launching to compete?

In that respect I'd think something based on the RX10 chipset (with built in zoom lens) was a more direct competitor to the DVX200, but I'd be more inclined to guess it's going to be the full frame model. Who knows - we may get both at the same time?
Yes, they are going to be very different types of cameras but they both might be in similar price points and both aimed at some degree of ENG work.(even though fighting big sensor focus is not fun for ENG work).
Careful - what you are saying in the last sentence is ONLY true *assuming the same f stop*. Which may not be at all true.

Compare 2/3" with full frame, and the latter I believe is very roughly 16x the area of the former. On a like for like comparison, it may therefore be expected to be about 4 stops more sensitive. (Because of the larger photosites.) So assuming all else equal, then for an f2 lens on 2/3", you can expect identical performance to a f8 lens on the FF sensor, of 4x the focal length. Identical low light performance, identical depth of field. Work it through and even the size/weight of the lenses are likely to be very similar.

Large sensors CAN mean shallow depth of field, but ONLY if used with fast lenses.

Is it confirmed it will be "E" mount? I don't see that in the Sony tease, only the rumour sites?
Well, it's confirmed that it's a FS-series camera. So far all FS cameras have been E-Mount so I think that's about the safest bet regarding this camera.

I also don't think that the AG-DVX200 is the competition, that's a fixed lens ENG/event camera. Sony has their own cameras in this segment fighting that battle. The competition here is mostly the C100mkII (and the Black Magic cameras). While the FS7 fights the C300 (and soon mkII) at a significantly lower price the FS??? will come at a rather similar price as the C100mkII, which means it will have to beat it in features.

Here are my guesses

Sony PXW-FS5 4K XDCAM XAVC
No Grip extension Handle
Some of the menus grayed out
Super 35mm Single-Chip Exmor CMOS
No loupe on LCD

XAVC-L QFHD 50
3840 x 2160/59.94p, 50p, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p
XAVC-L 35
1920 x 1080/59.94p, 50p, 59.94i, 50i, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p
XAVC-L QFHD MPEG-4 H.264/AVC
59.94p/50p mode: VBR, maximum bit rate 150 Mb/s
29.97p/23.98p/25p mode: VBR, maximum bit rate 100 Mb/s

XAVC-L HD 50 MPEG-4 H.264/AVC
VBR, maximum bit rate 50 Mb/s

MPEG-2 Long GOP
1920 x 1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p 1280 x 720/59.94p, 50p, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25
MPEG-2 Long GOP
CBR, maximum bit rate 50 Mbps, MPEG-2 422P@HL

Audio Input
2 x 3-pin XLR
Line/mic/mic +48
Mic Reference: -40. -50. -60 dBu

SDI Output
2 x BNC HD/3G-SDI
SMTPE292M/424M/425M

HDMI 2.0
1 x Type A

USB
USB device, miniB

Headphone
1 x Stereo mini jack
-16 dBu 16 Ω

Remote
Stereo mini jack (Φ2.5 mm)

I expect 8 bit 4:2:0 only in the XAVC-L QFHD mode. And the lower bitrate option has to be 60mbps. You'll have an option of 60mbps, 100mbps for framerates up to 30p and 150mbps for 50p or 60p. No 4:2:2 option in 4K except out the HDMI.

Also, it may be full frame, but be aware of weird crop factors if they choose this route. If it's the same Super35 sensor, expect all the framerates and crop factors to be normal, but no RAW options whatsoever.

Am I missing something, or is UHD so close to 4K that the differences are insignificant (literally a few hundred pixels)? This is not like 720p and 1080p; you're talking one being 95% or so as large as the other. Even if you had to scale up to real 4K for delivery, would you even notice?

You crop away the extra pixels for Cinema 4K to "Broadcast" 4K. A 16:9 safe essentially. Most broadcast will be 3840 sourced anyways, only if you need to deliver to Digital Cinema will 4096 matter.

Alexa's older non-4k resolution has been upscaled drastically for 4k projection with no visible artifacts. Not comparing Alexa to this new cam but an UHD image does not need "as much" stretching

Am I missing something, or is UHD so close to 4K that the differences are insignificant (literally a few hundred pixels)? This is not like 720p and 1080p; you're talking one being 95% or so as large as the other. Even if you had to scale up to real 4K for delivery, would you even notice?
Two things - when you talk of "UHD" I think you actually mean QFHD (3840x2160, "quad full HD")?

UHD is defined as an umbrella term, defined by the CES as referring to a system with a resolution of at least 3840x2160, so can be used to refer to 4K UHD and 8K UHD etc - in other words "better than normal HD". QFHD uniquely refers to 3840x2160.

Both QFHD and "cinema 4K" have a pixel height of 2160. The difference (as you imply) is solely in width - 4096 for 4k, and 3840 for QFHD. So yes, a few hundred pixels in one sense, but it means 4K is a wider aspect ratio than QFHD.

Converting QFHD to 4K means cropping the image and then rescaling up - yes, possible, but it's generally better to avoid any rescaling if possible. Shooting true 4K (4096x2160) and outputting QFHD is far better - a simple crop horizontally and no rescale. So if uncertain which aspect ratio you want to end up with (or you may want cinema and TV versions), it's more desirable to originate 4K and crop to QFHD than the other way round.

Two things - when you talk of "UHD" I think you actually mean QFHD (3840x2160, "quad full HD")?

UHD is defined as an umbrella term, defined by the CES as referring to a system with a resolution of at least 3840x2160, so can be used to refer to 4K UHD and 8K UHD etc - in other words "better than normal HD". QFHD uniquely refers to 3840x2160.

Both QFHD and "cinema 4K" have a pixel height of 2160. The difference (as you imply) is solely in width - 4096 for 4k, and 3840 for QFHD. So yes, a few hundred pixels in one sense, but it means 4K is a wider aspect ratio than QFHD.

Converting QFHD to 4K means cropping the image and then rescaling up - yes, possible, but it's generally better to avoid any rescaling if possible. Shooting true 4K (4096x2160) and outputting QFHD is far better - a simple crop horizontally and no rescale. So if uncertain which aspect ratio you want to end up with (or you may want cinema and TV versions), it's more desirable to originate 4K and crop to QFHD than the other way round.

Yes, a slight change of aspect ratio for sure. Resolution wise, there isn't a huge difference between QFHD vs DCI 4K. We're not up-scaling 2k or 2.8k for that matter to full DCI 4K but instead enlarging a few hundred pixels, not as drastic.

You're right though, starting with a full raster DCI 4K will always be better taking into consideration that we're actually finishing in 4K.

Can we hope it supports SD cards? I've finally gotten a surplus of SD cards in 32 and 64GB... it'd be nice if I didn't have to start over.

Oh, and F970 batteries. I have years worth of 970 batteries.

Thanks. But in real world practical terms, if you, say, had a cam that only shot QFHD and client wanted their final delivery in "real" 4K, so you had to upscale, would the image quality suffer noticeably or only to pixel peepers?

So the new camera sits between the cheaper FS700 and the more expensive FS7? I predict it will be called the FS70.

But this speculation belongs in the Area51 section, not the Industry News section. It won't be "news" until we see the first official announcements and spec sheets. Remind me, when does IBC start?

IBC is next week. I'd expect news before Monday morning, Amsterdam time.

But this speculation belongs in the Area51 section, not the Industry News section.
The exact details may be speculation at this point, but it's confirmed that "something" is coming, and that the "something" will be "a new FS camera". That's direct from Sony (see the first post), so IMO it's still reasonable to keep this thread in the News section?
It won't be "news" until we see the first official announcements and spec sheets. Remind me, when does IBC start?
I'd expect the details to be announced at the Sony IBC press conference, which is at 9am Central European time - so 8am in the UK - on the 11th September.

Sony's IBC2015 News & Press Centre : Broadcast & Professional A/V: Products : United Kingdom : Sony Professional (http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/products/events-broadcast-ibc)

Thanks. But in real world practical terms, if you, say, had a cam that only shot QFHD and client wanted their final delivery in "real" 4K, so you had to upscale, would the image quality suffer noticeably or only to pixel peepers?

Most 4k TV sets are QFHD and so are TV channels who broadcast in QFHD, so I wouldn't worry about it unless you get a client who's theatrically projecting in true DCI 4K, even then it shouldn't be a problem as you're not drastically enlarging the image.

Other elements like the dynamic range, color rendition, sampling, etc. of the camera come into play when upscaling so it's always advised to start with a high quality image to begin with.

The more you pay, the more you play. With all the new cameras coming out by less known "giants" who hold their own as far as latitude, RAW processing and color sampling, we don't have to worry about it as much anymore.

Thanks. But in real world practical terms, if you, say, had a cam that only shot QFHD and client wanted their final delivery in "real" 4K, so you had to upscale, would the image quality suffer noticeably or only to pixel peepers?
This may not be the answer you want, but I don't think there's a direct answer to that. At the end of the day, it's up to your client. If they have specified they want "real 4K" - and intend 4096x2160 by that - then you could be seen to be not adhering to the contract if you shoot QFHD, crop, and rescale. It's not really a matter of what anybody thinks acceptable in terms of quality, it's being paid to deliver to a specification and not doing it.

I think the answer has to be that if you think there's much likelihood of getting paying work that specifies 4K (rather than QFHD), then just make sure you get a "true" 4K camera in the first place.

1am Pacific time on Friday - I'll be there!

Sony IBC Press Conference – available 9am CET 11 September 2015 - YouTube

More rumor info from SAR:

Quote:

"New Sony F cam Friday is S35, not FF. 4K internally, but 8 bit XAVC-L (note the L) 100 Mbit max. No HFR as far as I can tell, 30fps max in 4K. Looks like a baby FS7. Price will be between old FS700 and current FS7, likely $5,000-6,500 USD. Differentiation on FS7 is much better CODEC, higher frame rates (incl 60p 4K), option for RAW and ProRes, bigger build."


Not confirmed, remember.

I saw this same rumor. I gotta believe that Sony is going to ether give more (like UHD 60p) for a $5000+ price. If these really the specs than I must believe that the price will be lower.

If it really is a small FS7 that is SOOO heavily crippled?...I don't know but those rumored specs don't seem very interesting.

They BETTER not limit 4K to 30 frames. Production and the new broadcast standard is 60 frames and to cripple the "missing piece" that badly makes no sense, especially since the DVX200 can to 60 frames (albeit with a massive crop factor) and can output at least 4K 8bit 4:2:2 out the HDMI with that framerate. 100mbps though worries me, cause that is the bitrate of XAVC-S 4K30p.

Give it the Long-GOP options of the FDR-AX1 and FS7 and I'll be happy. WITH 60p. Leave out 60p and I instantly am not interested.

Damn, hope they don't limit it to only 8 bit. I'd personally rather give up 4K 60fps and keep 10 bit!

I am with Jack. No QFHD 60P and I am not interested. Do not see why they would discontinue the FDR-AX1 that I have and introduce a model with lower spec. Doesn't make any sense. I still think it will be a e-mount with similar spec to my FDR-AX1 but maybe XAVC-L rather than XAVC-S. That would leave spec room to the Z100 and the FS7 and room for a real replacement for the FDR_AX1 with XAVC-S.

Ron Evans

FS5 is the model name now being reported. Still waiting on spec.

Sony PXW-FS5 is The Name of the New FS 4K Camera Coming to IBC 2015 | Cinescopophilia (http://cinescopophilia.com/sony-pxw-fs5-is-the-name-of-the-new-fs-4k-camera-coming-to-ibc-2015/)

So many conflicting reports, this site reports Full Frame while SAR reports S35... Guess we'll have to stay up tonight to find out, and I will be tuning out of there is no 60p. I know others will tune out if there is no 10bit output capability.

No handle and no loupe? Better be less than $5k.

So many conflicting reports, this site reports Full Frame while SAR reports S35... Guess we'll have to stay up tonight to find out, and I will be tuning out of there is no 60p. I know others will tune out if there is no 10bit output capability.

I'll bet it's a FF sensor. Sony is putting all it has into FF lens development right now. A PXW-FS5 Full Frame camera will help separate it from The FS7 nicely.

Remember...the curent A7s sensor will NOT do 4k in Super35 mode! This will very much help protect the FS7's market place from this new FS5

Excuse my ignorance.

I had assumed a larger sensor was "better". (Greater control of depth of field, greater sensitivity, etc.)

In reading this thread over the last few days, it appears that this is not necessarily so.

I personally can't see putting a smaller sensor on a more expensive camera, then putting a full frame sensor on its baby brother.

Can someone educate me?

Full frame will unfortunately not be able to scan as fast as it's Super35 counterpart due to current limitations in technology. This is partly where the 30p limitation could come from. (which would be a gigantic disappointment, but this is due to tech limits, not that they don't want to)

So it would be closer to a VG900 in terms of tech but a step up in terms it's actually super sampling the image. However, it will not have the scan rates as the FS7. At this current state of tech it would not be possible at all to scan that full frame sensor at 60p and still supersample for 4K if it is indeed a full frame sensor.

What would really suck is a lack of XLR inputs.

The 30p thing is not a deal breaker for me.

The XLR thing is a deal breaker for me.

As goofy as it is, the loupe and handle thing might be a deal breaker. I'm tired of putting together a hundred pieces that were jerry-rigged after the release of the camera. I shot with a magnetic loupe on a 5D MkII for a year, and that thing fell off the camera a thousand times. Never again.

I seriously doubt Sony would exclude XLR inputs on an FS camera. On a VG series camera, sure. But the FS line is professional level. It fits between the FS700 and FS7.
Of course it will have XLR inputs.

Full frame will unfortunately not be able to scan as fast as it's Super35 counterpart due to current limitations in technology. This is partly where the 30p limitation could come from. (which would be a gigantic disappointment, but this is due to tech limits, not that they don't want to)

So it would be closer to a VG900 in terms of tech but a step up in terms it's actually super sampling the image. However, it will not have the scan rates as the FS7. At this current state of tech it would not be possible at all to scan that full frame sensor at 60p and still supersample for 4K if it is indeed a full frame sensor.

What would really suck is a lack of XLR inputs.

I don't think it's so much the physical size of the sensor, it's the size of the data it dumps to the processing. The A7S with 10 megapixels in 16x9 is not allot of data throughput by today's standard. The A7R-II and the RX10-II certainly produce allot more data for each read cycle. The read clock speeds are slowed down to keep heat down. They have to drive these sensors as cool as possible to keep them clean. The A7s body with passive cooling doesn't help the heat problem much...so yeah, They are forced to give us rolling shutter jello.

SONY doesnt mind though. Rolling shutter jello helps keep the models further apart for marketing reasons.

The VG900 has barely any active cooling and that sensor is likely entirely passively cooled.

So we can expect really bad rolling shutter from this cam as well? It's the HPX300 all over again then.