Hey all,

I didn't know where to put this, since the DVX200 is a 4K camera I thought maybe it should go with the HC forum, but it's not an HC, it's a DVX, so in the end I decided to put it here.

The DVX200 is scheduled to be delivered in October. I've got a preproduction model in hand, and am working on a book for it which will be available free to all DVX buyers.

In the meantime, if people have questions about what the camera does or doesn't do, feel free to ask and I'll answer as best I can.

Can you swap lenses with it? ;-)

How bad is the "orbing" on wide open aperture and full wide end of the zoom? I know it's an issue with the 1/2'' EX1s if you don't focus it properly at the wide end and some examples I've seen show really bad out of focus shots that "orb" when you open it up fully to F2.8.

I didn't expect any Bokeh and saw none in any of the examples.

Also, Can you confirm HDMI 2.0 out? and can you see what pixel format and bit depth it is? V-Log + HDMI 2.0 and 10bit would redeem the camera in my mind for use with external recorders.

I haven't seen such an example on the EX1. Can you point one out so I know exactly what you're expecting and looking for?

As for HDMI 2.0, yes it's HDMI 2.0. It outputs 8-bit 4:2:2 when recording, or you can put it in "output-only" mode and it outputs 10-bit 4:2:2 in that case.

There are a couple of exceptions that happen due to the processing load. For one, in UHD/60p or UHD/50p, it outputs 8-bit 4:2:2 at all times. It doesn't do 10-bit when in 60p/50p, but it does do 10-bit in FHD, and in UHD 24/25/30.

Second, when you're recording UHD/60p, it can't output a full UHD signal at the same time as it's recording, so it drops to 1080p on the HDMI during recording internally. If you're recording externally it wouldn't make a difference, as it outputs the live signal continuously in full res. When recording 4K/24 or UHD 24/25/30, it maintains a full 2160p output with 4:2:2 8-bit output while recording. For external recording you would likely want to turn on the 10-bit output option.

Can you swap lenses with it? ;-)
With a hacksaw, all things are possible...

But really, there are a bazillion interchangeable-lens cameras out there; the whole point of the DVX200 is to bring the usability and familiar workflow of the 1/3" handheld camera, but to do it with a big sensor instead. It is definitely a case of Panasonic "zigging" when everyone else has been "zagging".

It is definitely a case of Panasonic "zigging" when everyone else has been "zagging".

Everyone else is swinging around the cliff, while Panasonic is barrelling full steam ahead out into the abyss.

How would you compare lowlight to the AG-AC160A?

The DVX200 is definitely better, but how much better depends on how low the light goes.

In terms of base sensitivity, the DVX200 is better but the AC160's lens can open up to a wider iris, so that levels the playing field between them.

But when you need to start adding gain, the DVX200 picture stays much cleaner. I didn't test against an AC160, I tested against an HPX250, which is the same imagers, so the results should be the same. At 5000 ISO vs. 18dB of gain on the HPX250, they were equally bright but the DVX200 won in a landslide due to the lower grain; the HPX250's grain was very noticeable all over the image. In comparison, the DVX200 was relatively clean.

In zero light, the DVX200 wins because it has an infrared recording mode so it can record in pitch black (provided there's some infrared light to go off of).

It's not the most ultra low light camera on the market; it can't compare to an S35 camera with an f/1.2 lens of course, but it does do much better than the all-in-one 1/3"-sensor cameras that it is supplanting.

hows low light compared to an EX1?

I don't have access to an EX1 to compare it to...

Curses...foiled again!

How bad is the crop factor in 60p? Hearing reports the different picture modes have drastically different crop factors.

And that's a huge shame it can't output 10-bit 4:2:2 in 60p out the HDMI. Must be power limitations. Panasonic should have gone to 14.4v batteries like the Sony BP-U batteries.

And there obviously won't be a 4096x2160 output mode out the HDMI, (it's non-standard) so the 10bit you would be getting out the HDMI gets shrunken down to 3840 width in that mode.

How bad is the crop factor in 60p? Hearing reports the different picture modes have drastically different crop factors.
There are minor variations in some of the modes' fields of view; 4K/24p is slightly wider than UHD/24/25/30p for example (because they are, in effect, the same vertically, but 4K has 128 extra pixels on each side of the frame so that makes it slightly wider).

In 1080, there is no cropping regardless of frame rate, it's always at a 28mm equivalent field of view (on the wide end of the lens).

There is a notable crop in when going to UHD/60P (or 50P). Instead of a 28mm equivalent, it crops in to a 37.2mm equivalent.

And that's a huge shame it can't output 10-bit 4:2:2 in 60p out the HDMI. Must be power limitations. Panasonic should have gone to 14.4v batteries like the Sony BP-U batteries.
It does output 10-bit 4:2:2 in 1080/60p. It doesn't in UHD/60p. I don't know the exact reason why it can't, but it can't. However, as of right now, I can't really see it being practically a problem, because there's nigh unto nothing (affordable) that could handle a UHD 60p signal. An Odyssey 7Q+ can't, a PIX E5 can't, and a Shogun can't. They're all HDMI 1.4 devices, which are limited to UHD/29.97.

Note: I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm saying that as of right now, with the state of current technology, it's kind of not relevant. Obviously when the industry starts implementing HDMI 2.0 in their recorders, it will become more relevant.

And there obviously won't be a 4096x2160 output mode out the HDMI, (it's non-standard) so the 10bit you would be getting out the HDMI gets shrunken down to 3840 width in that mode.
Ah, some good news for you then -- you are incorrect on this. 4096x2160 is a standard mode, it's a Digital Cinema Initiative standard. The DVX200 happily outputs 4096x2160 at 10-bit 4:2:2 out its HDMI port, and the Odyssey 7Q+ happily records it. I haven't had a chance to try other recorders, but I can verify that it works fine with the Odyssey.

Oddball question: With the EX1r, there were auxiliary wide angle and telephoto lenses that Sony supported so you could get a wider field of view, for instance, and have the barrel distortion compensated for with a menu option. The tele aux lens was quite useful when shooting events. Both, I might add, accomplished their respective tasks without affecting sharpness or light loss. Are you aware of any similar options that are planned with this camera?

Oddball question: With the EX1r, there were auxiliary wide angle and telephoto lenses that Sony supported so you could get a wider field of view, for instance, and have the barrel distortion compensated for with a menu option. The tele aux lens was quite useful when shooting events. Both, I might add, accomplished their respective tasks without affecting sharpness or light loss. Are you aware of any similar options that are planned with this camera?

I haven't heard from any manufacturers as to them stating plans to make such lenses; however, Century/Schneider always made add-on lenses for prior Panasonics, and it would be reasonable to assume that they, or others, will be making something for this one. Perhaps we'll hear more at IBC?

How bad is the dark noise? I've seen samples recompressed from internal recordings and the dark noise is pretty high. Do you have a V-LOG sample screenshot captured from an Odyssey uncompressed of a dark scene for us to show in PNG format? (City lights at night would do)

Getting a bit concerned about the dark noise and if that dark noise is fixed pattern dark noise.

Getting a bit concerned about the dark noise and if that dark noise is fixed pattern dark noise.

I really cannot see the DVX200 being any better with noise in the shadows than the GH4. It might be, but I highly doubt it.

Barry -- many thanks! I'm not sure where all the DVX200 discussions are going to live yet. Much appreciated,

How bad is the dark noise? I've seen samples recompressed from internal recordings and the dark noise is pretty high. Do you have a V-LOG sample screenshot captured from an Odyssey uncompressed of a dark scene for us to show in PNG format? (City lights at night would do)

Getting a bit concerned about the dark noise and if that dark noise is fixed pattern dark noise.
There is no obvious fixed pattern noise in anything that I've seen. There can be noise in the shadows, depending on the gain level, obviously. I've tested it to ISO 2000 in HD mode, and there's no appreciable visible noise. There's a minor bit of noise, as always, but from any reasonable viewing distance nobody would be able to see it. If you go beyond 2000 ISO, yes there's more visible noise, although I still think it's completely usable at 4000 ISO and reasonably clean. At 8000 there's noise, at 16000 there's a lot of noise, and at 32000 there's a whole lot.

But in general it's quite clean to at least 2000. Matthew Allard said that he considers it acceptable up to 3200, although he'd limit his own use to 2000. I don't know if his assessment was made using NORM SENS(itivity) or HIGH SENS though. The HIGH SENS mode doubles the gain and uses more aggressive noise reduction, so the images end up twice as bright and even cleaner than at NORM SENS. I would guess that Mr. Allard was likely using normal sensitivity, and that should mean that on a noise-by-noise basis, you'd be able to double the effective usable ISO while maintaining a comparable overall noise level.

I really cannot see the DVX200 being any better with noise in the shadows than the GH4. It might be, but I highly doubt it.

The DVX200 uses a different sensor than the GH4 does. It's the next-generation sensor, likely what will end up in a future GH5 at some point. So you cannot expect to directly compare the sensor characteristics between the two cameras. I don't have a GH4 to compare against the DVX200 so I can't say how different they may be.

Also, the firmware the camera is running is not yet final. While it's unlikely that there will be substantial changes made in these last few weeks before shipping, I still would say that image assessments should wait until the product is in its final form, because that is the only form that matters to the buying public.

Okay, so that was H264 compression playing tricks on a sample I saw for fixed pattern noise.

And a 16:9 sensor would more likely make it into an AF200 rather than the GH5 cause the series for the stills camera sensor would likely be a 3:2 aspect ratio. (and hopefully without ridiculous crop factor in higher frame rate readouts)

FYI, the first official DVX200 footage shot by the factory is now out.

・"A Day Of Life"
Vimeo(En) Shot on AG-DVX200: A Day of Life on Vimeo

・"A Day Of Life -Behind The Scenes" FHD
Vimeo(En)A Day of Life - Behind The Scenes on Vimeo

Another new video has been posted. This one is "Official V-Log Footage."

DVX200 V-Log L Official Footage on Vimeo

I have had the DVX200 for about a week. It has a steep learning curve, and I miss being able to see an exposure meter. It doesn't have one! Proper exposure is critical with this camera, just as it is with the AF100. You must use the Waveform monitor, but it doesn't display while you are recording! Bummer!
It produces the Panasonic "look" if you know what I mean and it is certainly an improvement over the AGC160A...One thing that is useful is that for depositions, it will time and date stamp your video. Then, the OIS is not bad, I tried it with a monopod stuck through the roof of my Rav4 and on paved road it was really good, but not so good on dirt road. In standard default scene file one, I found I had to give the saturation a little boost, but other than that, I am pretty satisfied with the color. The picture in 4K in nice looking and seems a little sharper than a GH4 with a 12mm lens.

Past Peak but still some color! on Vimeo

I am still learning all the "fun stuff" with the 200, but I assigned the histogram to a user button, so that gives me an idea on how much I have messed up the exposure!

Bruce

How bad is the dark noise?
FYI, they just released a new firmware update today, and one of the specific things they addressed is black dot noise in the shadows. It was comparable to prior Panasonics in the previous firmware, but in this latest firmware they've really cleaned up the "grit" that could happen in the shadows. The result is an overall smoother, nicer, cleaner texture to the images.

There are other changes too, including improved color (especially for overexposed skin) and new Fast Scan modes that reduce or eliminate any "rolling shutter" concerns.

Hi Barry... (longtime fan of your HVX book and DVDs)...

Also a proud owner of the DVX 200 for the past week.

Wondering if you have any suggestions for custom scene files with this camera?

The options are so overwhelming and I need to get in and shoot. I am technically inclined, but I am a loooong way from understanding what all of the options are in the scene file customization menus.

I read a post from you that said you are working on a new book for the DVX200 that we will get for free (?)... any progress toward that end?

And finally, do you have the ear of Panasonic in terms of giving them feedback for firmware upgrades? Just curious.

Thanks a bunch Barry and keep up the good work. Matt

The HIGH SENS mode doubles the gain and uses more aggressive noise reduction, so the images end up twice as bright and even cleaner than at NORM SENS. .

Barry, so when shooting indoors in natural light, should I use HIGH SENS? Seems like a win-win if it doubles the sensitivity of the sensor and creates an image that is cleaner than NORM SENS.

Any setbacks to using HIGH SENS?

Matt

Barry, so when shooting indoors in natural light, should I use HIGH SENS? Seems like a win-win if it doubles the sensitivity of the sensor and creates an image that is cleaner than NORM SENS.

Any setbacks to using HIGH SENS?

Matt
There's a thread about just this subject already - http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasonic-dvx-dvc-assistant/530099-dvx-200-high-sensitivity-mode.html

From that it would seem it's modifying the gamma curve to lessen the noise in the blacks, or only applying the gain higher up the exposure curve if you like.

My conclusion was : "It sounds like a valid technique if the footage is to be used directly as shot, but if subject to any grading or post I'd think the "High Sensitivity" mode may be a bad idea? Better just to put in 6dB of gain in normal mode, and then do something similar in post - when the amount is under control and not burnt in? " The SENSOR sensitivity is a fixed quantity, what this seems to be doing is modifying the curve to hide the noise for moderate gain levels.

Hi David, Thanks for the reply. After doing a few quick tests, I ended up using High Sensitivity on an event shoot last week. I had no plans to grade or manipulate the footage so I just needed it to be as clean as possible out of the camera. I had upgraded the firmware to 1.25.

The event (boring gig that paid some bills) was a presentation in front of a PPT projected screen. I have shot three of these previously for the same company with the PX270, which is a higher-end (and more expensive) P2 camera.

The footage from the 200 held up well in comparison to the 270. I would say that in general it looks better with cleaner shadows.

It was interesting to see that the High Sensitivity locks the gain at a full stop up. (I use ISO instead of DB in the 200 display)... instead of the base ISO of 500, the minimum I could go in High SENS was ISO 1000). So I guess that validates the point that the sensitivity is doubled but the curve kills the blacks to hide the grain.

With all of that said... although the footage from the 200 is less grainy than the 270, there is less dynamic range overall (I didn't shoot V-LOG). The highlights in the 200 footage are missing much of the detail that the 270 was able to pick up. I carefully set my exposure for the (mostly white) PPT slides and the WFM showed nothing blowing out... it just seemed that the 200 was less able to differentiate between the white background and the light blue text).

Hi Matthew

Good to hear some positive words about the DVX200 for once :-) Very nice to hear, that you have less noise issues after having updated the firmware. Others seems to have equal or more noise as before updating?

I guess your experiences shows, that the scenefiles are not yet useful and one have to record external in 422 VLog to get best results. At least untill there are some better scenefiles available?

I am going to try this camera for the second time tomorrow. I did like it the first time, but did not have time enough to record everything to take home and anaylize. And after I tried it, I read all the less positive posts about the noise- and coloursissues. I really wish this camera will be even better in the future with new firmware updates to fix issues and bring new options :-) I seems to be a very usefull camera for a lot of different kinds of jobs.

Wondering if you have any suggestions for custom scene files with this camera?
They're coming. I posted a couple of "accurate" scene files, and I'm working on matching a GH4 so I'll have a set of GH4 lookalike scene files. I know that there are other people working on them too.

I read a post from you that said you are working on a new book for the DVX200 that we will get for free (?)... any progress toward that end?
I have submitted a release candidate. I do not know when they will post it for download, but -- unless they object to something about it, it's ready to go.

And finally, do you have the ear of Panasonic in terms of giving them feedback for firmware upgrades? Just curious.
I can definitely get suggestions to the right people. Cannot guarantee that they'll listen, and further cannot guarantee that even if they listen that they'll do something about it, but -- I can get it to them.

How well does the card to card copying and the card to external HDD copying work? I know Sony has let everyone down in this department for doing this in-camera, how is Panasonic doing?