if an editor needs to composite and key green/bluescreen frequently as well as integrate 3D fx. is Vegas good enough or will he need After Effects?

I would love to know the answer to this as well. It's exactly my predicament.

Have you tried the Vegas demo to give it's keying tools and track layering - for adding multi track effects - like 3D stuff with an alpha for instance...

It's difficult to say definitively that you guys are gonna love the way Vegas handles keying, etc. in comparison to After Effects. Some folks will tell you that After Effects is "industry standard"... as if they'd flamin' know what that is - they used to say the same thing about Illustrator compared to CorelDraw!! They still do, because it's a war out there amongst software vendors to get your business!!

Get as many demo's of HD/HDV capable appz as you can... and try 'em out. If I tell you Vegas will handle eveything that you want it too as far as keying and 3D integration is concerned... well that's my opinion. Have a go for yourselves!! After Effects may be considered "industry standard", but it isn't the only option you have for quality keying and 3D integration.

Too be honest, you may need to think your workflow through more carefully than the software that's capable of achieving the result you're after. Are you thinking of working with CFHD? Will you be taking edited material into your 3D app? Are you contemplating much image sequence material? There's many more things involved than a simple "errr will Vegas do?" question...

Seems like you're both hoping someone else can make your decision for you...

What are you guys so afraid of - failure, or learning something?

Some folks will tell you that After Effects is "industry standard"...

Industry standard??
lol sorry but i know where your going with this, and i agree with your additional comments on this.. however IMO and going with what i have worked with, there is NO industry standard..

sure enough, Combustion itself is probably utlised in more higher end studios but for basic prosumer work, almost anything can be used..

ive created keys with vegas which has also made combsuiton obsolete in some situations, while other times after effects poos on combustion, while lighting and glow effects are for more precise and faser to render within vegas..

so what r u left with..

the idea of goin out and trialling the software, its the best way to test the waters...

AE is is one for those programs that is god to have around just in case you may need it unles your work requires copious amount of fx work which, if that the case, i would recommend a variey of differnt apps..

A lot of this depends on what your work flow is. When asking questions like this, try to be more specific (actual source video format/codec, types of transistions, will you need to integrate with professional 3D modeling/animation programs...will you need painting capabilites, 16bit per channel support? etc....)
For less money then AE production bundle, you get Vegas with Dolby 5.1 audio support, DVD Architect and CD Architect, Magic Bullet Editors edition and Boris Effect LE. and still spending less, you could select some excellent tools from the growing 3rd party comunity for Vegas.

As an all around post tool, Vegas is superior to AE, as a specific high end special effects tool AE would have the upper hand. IMHO.

i got both. i haven't gotten to the part where i need to composite yet, but i'm just wondering out loud. and also seeing how other people's experience fits into the whole scheme of editing/compositing.

I don't know how one can even compare the two.

Vegas is a non-linear editing suite.
After Effects is a compositing program.

You can do some compositing in Vegas. Is it enough for you? Fine - just use Vegas then... but there are a ton more things you can do in After Effects. AE is my favourite program on my computer thanks to its versatility.

-Steve

Don't forget, you need After Effects for Magic Bullet Suite. (Editors is different)

i think that's what my question was/pertains to more.

what can AE do that Vegas can't in terms of compositing?

I don't know how one can even compare the two.

Vegas is a non-linear editing suite.
After Effects is a compositing program.

You can do some compositing in Vegas. Is it enough for you? Fine - just use Vegas then... but there are a ton more things you can do in After Effects. AE is my favourite program on my computer thanks to its versatility.

-Steve

i think that's what my question was/pertains to more.

what can AE do that Vegas can't in terms of compositing?


Without the plethora of plugs for AE, there isn't much Vegas can't do. Once you start adding plugs though...AE is significantly more powerful.

It's easier to track objects to a path in AE, such as making letters tumble on a path, that's probably the biggest thing. Also, you can do extrusion on objects.

As far as keying, given equal footage, Vegas will do as well as AE. Where Vegas isn't as good as other keying tools would be when compared to Ultimatte or Serious Magic Ultra 2. SM Ultra 2 is better than Vegas, but then again, it should be. All it does is key.

I'm actually wanting to check out 'Mirage' from bauhaussoftware. I think the program used to be called Aura when it was owned by newtek. Seems to have some interesting features that might work well with Vegas. I especially am interested in the Video Painting features. It also looks to be an affordable alternative to much higher priced dedicated animation software.

Thanks for the info, guys. Looks like I need download some trials.

ah... that's exactly the answer i was looking for Douglas Spotted Eagle! =). as always thanks for your insights. we all really appreciate it!

Without the plethora of plugs for AE, there isn't much Vegas can't do

Really?! These aren't rhetorical questions - I'm acutually curious:

Is Vegas' keyer really as good as Keylight with as many tweaks?
Does Vegas have a particle engine?
A motion tracker?
Paint and cloning tools?
All the blending modes?
Layer-based effects?
Intuitive and thorough nonlinear keyframing?
3D lighting?
Good enough mask control to rotoscope multiple objects with bezier curves?

I could probably keep adding to this list ad nauseum.

-Steve

Really?! These aren't rhetorical questions - I'm acutually curious:

Is Vegas' keyer really as good as Keylight with as many tweaks?
Does Vegas have a particle engine?
A motion tracker?
Paint and cloning tools?
All the blending modes?
Layer-based effects?
Intuitive and thorough nonlinear keyframing?
3D lighting?
Good enough mask control to rotoscope multiple objects with bezier curves?

I could probably keep adding to this list ad nauseum.

-Steve

Like I mentioned WITHOUT THE PLUGS for AE...In other words, once you discount/don't consider/don't own the plugs for AE, Vegas does a lot of what AE does.
I'd forgotten Keylight now comes with AE. No, Vegas doesn't have Tracer that comes with Keylight. I don't have AE 6.5 on this laptop to make comparisons.
No, Vegas doesn't have motion tracking. (alluded to in my post)
No, Vegas doesn't have a particle engine. (not alluded to in my post)
It has most of the blending modes AE has, but not all.
Layer based Effects-yes
Intuitive and non-linear keyframing? Yes, but no bezier on the keyframes, only personalities.
Yes, you can mask multiple objects with bezier curves. However, without Motion Tracking, this isn't as powerful as it could be.

I didn't say Vegas can replace AE. However, for *most* basic uses of AE, Vegas can manage those tasks just fine. As far as keying, Vegas converts the keyed media to 4:4:4 in the key stage, hence the quality of a key. I've pulled keys in Vegas that I couldn't pull well in AE. I'll admit I've not been as deeply into AE since Vegas 5, because I use the bezier masks religiously. That covers most of what *I* need. I only wish for motion tracking now.

doesn't vegas have motion tracking?

doesn't vegas have motion tracking?

No. Vegas has Track Motion, which is different than Motion Tracking. Track motion allows you to move the entire image within the preview space. Motion Tracking allows you to identify specific vector points within the image and follow those vector points.
For example, say you had an eye over which you composited eyeglasses. As the subject moves their head, the eye moves in position, and you'd like the glasses to follow suit. Rather than keyframing each move, motion tracking simply follows the eye, causing the glasses to move along with the pixels contained in the eye.
Not the best explanation, but hopefully it explains the difference.

so Vegas doesn't have motion tracking then (in the eyeglass sense). it doesn't matter what happens in the preview, it's the final results that are more important.

to me this is a great thread. it is too bad that vegas is split between HD and DV forums. You really need to look at both forums - very confusing.