As some of you you might know, I'm going to use an UHDTV rather than a 4k PC monitor for my edit monitoring purposes - just as I've used my 50" Panasonic FHD plasma with my 1080p editing. The main reason is that my editing studio must serve other purposes as well (such as continue being my Home Cinema, with all the audio high-end equipment already in place and lack of another room in my small house to accommodate it); also I spend much, much more time doing my other, main profession-related things (CAE), as well as simply running my home office, than I do editing video in Vegas - hence the need for my desk to accommodate 2 computers instead of one, which doesn't leave much (if any) free space for yet another monitor... All in all, the display must end up hanging on the wall rather than standing on the overcrowded desktop - and as to display color/levels calibration, I can assure you that with e.g.the middle-class Panasonic Viera TX-50AX800E I can do it no worse than on one of those entry level 4K monitors...

Anyway, I have one more, extremely important to me, question to those more knowledgeable than myself: we all know that even with the regular HDMI 1.4, displaying 4K from a computer *IS* possible - just with the refresh rates limited to 30/25/24 Hz (depending where we live). Please help me understand the relation between this limited refresh rate (which would probably make the Windows desktop a mess, difficult to work with due to flickering, illegible fonts etc.) on the one hand, and the fps speed of movies displayed this way on the other... Since I will most probably limit myself to a 24/25/30 fps camera (the 50/60p ones being another, more expensive league) - is the abovementioned limitation of HDMI 1.4 most cheaper UHDTVs are still equipped with a real problem? The Viera TX-50AX800E I mentioned is *NOT* limited like this - it offers a single HDMI 2.x plus DisplayPort, so I'd be covered for up to 4k@50/60p. But this model is not cheap - so do I really need those inputs if my camera - most probably just the AX100, *maybe* X70 - won't be capable of 4K@50/60p, anyway? Of course, the main Windows desktop would go to a regular desktop monitor with the mediocre resolution of 1680x1050, with only movies and my Vegas previews displayed on the UHDTV...

I'm asking this very important question as I have no idea how a 50" *non-plasma* flat screen "feels" at 24/25/30 Hz refresh, and it's not easy at all to "test-drive" one as most shops have the highest possible demo content permanently connected to their UHD Bravias or Vieras... My only personal experience is with plasmas: at a refresh rate as low as 25 Hz they all flicker like crazy; heck - even the nominal 50 Hz (in EU - in the US it would be 60 Hz) is too low, so before plasmas were discontinued even by Panasonic, they actually used refresh rates being integer multiples of that (like 100 Hz and up in EU, or 120Hz and up in the US). So with a plasma, this would be a no-brainer - just like, of course, with *any* display type displaying content from a *4K camera capable of 50/60p*... But I have *no* experience whatsoever re: 4k playback of 24/25/30 fps material at such a low refresh rate on *LED displays* (and there are many LED flavors to further complicate the picture - pun intended :)).

Of course one might say: forget the entry level stuff and go for at least the medium-level, if only for it to be future proof enough. But I'm very much on a tight budget, hence it's not that simple a decision for me - please help me to make a right one! TIA,

Piotr

PS. Oh, and please don't try to talk me into a monitor instead of UHDTV - I have reasons important enough for having already made my mind on the latter.

Hi Piotr, I use a 65" seiki LED 4K tv running at 3840x2160 at 30Hz on a cheap nvidia zotac GT730 video card.
Like you, I used a panasonic plasma for 1080p editing previously.
I use this setup for photoshop, premiere cc etc. and am very happy with it. Text is fine and downloaded 4 k videos run fine also. I love the amount of info you get on the screen and I get to see my photoshop images much more clearly than a 1080p monitor.
This is a pretty cheap setup so it certainly won't be broadcast standard, but it works fine for me.
Andy

Hi Andy; how do you connect your computer to the Seiko? If it is HDMI - which version? And if version 1.4 - doesn't the flicker bother you?

Thanks,

Piotr

Hi Piotr, I don't shoot or edit any 4k material, but I play back a lot of 1080p movies on my computer at 30Hz and i don't see a problem. Remember the 30Hz is progressive whereas most tv channels are 60i.
Most movies are shot at 24 frames per second which is essentially progressive.

I viewed some 4k youtube videos (I looked for some with lots of movement rather than the DSLR time lapse videos) and they look fine to me. I'm not sure which variant of HDMI I have, i just plugged in any old HDMI cable and it works.
Andy

NTSC TV's normally refresh at 60hz or the newer ones at 120 hz or more. If the input is 30P the TV will still refresh at 60hz or more and just repeat frames to match the refresh rate. For 24P it will use 3:2 pulldown cadence to match the frames to the refresh rate. Newer TV's that refresh at 120Hz or more can sometimes correctly display 24P much like a multiblade shutter on a film projector so 120Hz would be like having a 5 blade shutter on a film projector. If the TV is 60hz only then 24P will have a pulldown cadence not true 24P.

Ron Evans

Some displays (e.g. my plasma) offer a 72Hz mode to display 24p material without pulldown.

Some displays (e.g. my plasma) offer a 72Hz mode to display 24p material without pulldown.

Yes I forgot about some of the plasma TV's equivalent to a 3 blade film projector.

Ron Evans

Hi Ron,

Yes - flat display (HD)TVs have been offering - as I put it in my post - refresh rates much higher than the basic 50/60 Hz (depending on whether in PAL or NTSC area), and those refresh rates are integer multiplies of the basic frequency. My 1080p Panasonic plasma I've been using for several years only offered 2x 50 Hz = 100 Hz, but even this has been enough to get rid of any flickering, which (at 50 Hz, not to mention 25 Hz) can be very annoying - especially on plasma displays (much less so on LCD/LED displays).

Now - coming back to my original question in this thread - I'd like to use a LED 4k UHDTV, and unless it has HDMI 2.0 or DisplayPort (very rare, the latter) it would switch to 25 Hz if I played my 25fps 4K content on this. Using DisplayPort or HDMI 2.0 I reckon (though please somebody confirm) it would stay at 50 Hz (which would create an analogical situation to the way I displayed my 50p, or ever 25p, 1080p material with my 1080p plasma refreshing at 100 Hz: each frame would technically be displayed twice (with 50p) oraz 4 times (with 25p) - a very nice, stable and fluent, way of watching HD contents. So back to 4K and UHDTV (and not plasma as none exist, but LED) - with HDMI 2.0 or DisplayPort my 25p 4K material should be played back with every single frame displayed twice! This should look very nice - but can anyone confirm that? Of course, should my 4K camera be able of producing 4K at 50 fps, each frame would be displayed just once - but with LED displays much less prone to flickering than plasmas, this should work and look nice, too...

Now - let's consider a situation where due to not enough cash, I can only purchase an entry-level UHDTV LED display without DisplaPort, and with HDMI 1.4 - only capable of 3840x2160 @ 25 Hz. Would the display be flickering when displaying 4K at 25 fps (like that from AX100 or X70)?

And finally: what would happen if I decided to go with a 4K camcorder capable of 50/60 fps, but connected my PC to such a low-refresh UHDTV only capable of 4K@25Hz (like all those entry-level ones offering only HDMI 1.4 and no DisplaPort connections)? Just what happens then?

The 2 above questions are just re-wording of my OP in this thread that somehow nobody answered, so I thought it was my poor English; are they more easily understood now?

Piotr

It is far to early to be adopting 4K. Currently all 4K displays are Rec.709. We need to wait until Rec.2020 becomes standard.

HDMI 2.0 already fails one part of Rec.2020. It can only deliver 8bit 4:2:0 4K at 60p on HDCP 2.2 protected sources. So all this talk of high dynamic range pictures would be meaningless without 10bit delivery to the display. ALL consumer content has to be protected, so it helps no one when HDCP needs a ton of bandwidth which prevents 10bit 4:2:2, which is likely required for high dynamic range video.

Absolutely agree, Jack. However - even though I do consider cameras capable of 50/60 fps (like Z100, for one) - they still only deliver 4k with 4:2:0 color so I wouldn't be losing much in terms of color space (BTW if Iwas to follow full 4K standard spec so strictly, I'd never think of monitoring on a UHDTV but a specialized monitor...

If you're tight on budget, wouldn't it make sense to keep your existing HD workflows longer? Otherwise, you're risking spending money now on 4K that I don't think you'd ultimately be happy with. And you'd then be spending more on 4K when equipment exists that is up to the specs.

Strange that - apart from various (soome good, others not so good) pieces of advice - nobody offers a straight answer to my question. Hm...

Well... considering the two question marks in your OP weren't really questions at all, I thought I did a pretty good job of answering what I thought your questions were!

Andy - I realize I was trying to answer my own questions while typing them, but believe me - they were real questions, bro...

My main problem is that in Poland, it's not that easy to find a well-supplied shop and try out every combination of equipment one is interested in. What I know for sure is limited to HD (1080p) and plasmas as display devices (as opposed to 4k and LEDs), as I have been editing my HD stuff using a Panasonic 50" plasma this way for several years with great results; as to whether the trick to make a HDMI 1.4-only UHDTV work with 4K content by limiting its refresh is a mystery to me - all I know people do it, but I'm sure it's far from being "professional"... How far? I've no idea (and I'm not even touching the intricacies of screen calibration, color space and depth, or alike here), as on the one hand LED displays are not as flicker-prone as plasmas, but on the other I can only guess a higher fps material (50/50 fps) cannot be played back this way at all...Or can they?

So yes, they are real questions - and I'm still hoping for some answers. Being on the budget I just cannot afford to use the "brute force" method: if in doubt, choose the best stuff money can buy:)

Oh, and one more thing: I'm totally aware that in my plans of selling the rig mentioned in my sig, and going for a currently available 4K camera (and not an FS7, either) - I'm choosing a much less "professional" solution for what can only be called "consumer" (not even "prosumer"). But I'm doing it for a reason, so please to not bash me for it :)

Piotr

Piotr don't be surprised if the AX100 produces a cleaner and more detailed image than the EX1. Even in HD a scaled UHD image will definitely have more detail. Not sure if you can get a Viewsonic 27" Ultra HD LED Monitor VP2780-4K but that will do it all for you. Display Port , HDMI 2.0 etc.VP2780-4K - Stunning Ultra HD resolution - Incredible color accuracy - Preset EBU and Gamma corrections - Next generation connectivity - View up to four video sources - (http://www.viewsonic.com/us/monitors/ultra-hd/vp2780-4k.html) On my list to replace my Dell 24" I have now.

Ron Evans

Ron,

I'm pretty sure - based on the AX100 clips I downloaded for testing - that they indeed are cleaner than those from the EX1. The noise has always been a single most noticeable shortcoming of this - otherwise excellent - cameras.

Displayed on my 1080p plasma the AX100 footage is also extremely detailed, but being 4K it must be. Didn't have an opportunity yet to see them on a large 4K resolution display - and this is going to be the final (and of course pretty important) test...

Piotr

PS Ron - how does AX1 material compare to AX100 in this regard?

I think I understand what you're asking, sort of...

First, I too was nervous about using a system refreshing at 30Hz (Seiki Cheap-o 4K TV for monitor) and initially integrated Intel graphics... no "flicker" and far less eyestrain than my previous "HD" setup, so that probably won't be an issue (though I presume you would be at 25Hz in EU? Not sure whether that additional 5Hz will do you in or not?!). I think you "should" be OK for normal use, I wouldn't give up my 39" 4K "desktop", it's very useful and usable.

The second part, not too sure - I'd guess that a clip running at 50p on a 25 Hz display would toss half the input,but that's just pure speculation... My take is that right now 30/25/24p seems like the frame rate we get for 4K (yeah, rather have 60p and yet another round of bigger fast memory cards to be purchased!).

As was hashed out on the neverending AX100 thread, it does require some adjustment when shooting. My "solution" has been to keep shutter speeds as low as possible, introducing enough motion blur into the equation that MOST of the stutter and shimmer that comes with 24-30 very SHARP detailed frames per second being displayed is eliminated - the motion blur seems to smooth out the "flip book" type effect.

When the AX100 hit, I was very interested in making the 4K jump, but budget was a big part of the equation - if it cost as much as the camera again just to do anything with the clips... it was a "NO", but I found the cheap TV "solution" to be very economical (picked up mine used, very reasonable), and the computer upgrade was overdue and not too bad. Yes, it was a "30Hz" system, but it worked fine. I recently found a gaming laptop that was powerful enough to replace the desktop, and be portable too,
it hooks into my TV solution and works fine. SO, I guess what I'm saying is it can be done, there are a few wrinkles to iron out (Intel 4K drivers are sorta "special", I'll leave it at that!), but well worth it when you see what images the camera can produce!!

...I can only purchase an entry-level UHDTV LED display without DisplaPort, and with HDMI 1.4 - only capable of 3840x2160 @ 25 Hz. Would the display be flickering when displaying 4K at 25 fps (like that from AX100 or X70)?

And finally: what would happen if I decided to go with a 4K camcorder capable of 50/60 fps, but connected my PC to such a low-refresh UHDTV only capable of 4K@25Hz (like all those entry-level ones offering only HDMI 1.4 and no DisplaPort connections)? Just what happens then?

I suspect the reason you aren't getting answers to your questions is that nobody knows, because nobody has bought such a system and tried it. You'd have to be an extremely early adopter, and I doubt many here would be willing, just like I personally am not willing. Just like I waited to upgrade to HD for HDMI 1.3 to become commonly available so that all my equipment used HDMI 1.3, I'm now waiting for 1) Rec.2020 support, and 2) HDMI 2.0 support before I even consider moving to QHD. If it can't give me pictures that exceed my existing Panny plasma 1080 screen, I don't see the point in upgrading.

OTOH, if you decide to be that extremely early adopter, I'd be very interested in hearing what you think about how your new system deals with the questions you pose above.

Ron,

Ron - how does AX1 material compare to AX100 in this regard?

In good light they are very similar and clearly better than my other cameras ( NX5U , NX30U etc ) I have only shot a test of UHD with the AX100 to compare to the 30P from the AX1 and they are pretty close. I have no interest in 30P so will only use the AX100 in HD XAVC-S 60P and the AX1 QFHD 60P. The AX100 is not a low light camera though being about the same as the NX30U and not quite as good as the NX5U and only a little better than the AX1. The AX1 has a f1.6 lens like the NX5U when wide but the AX100 is only f2.8 the lens difference almost negates the larger sensor. I am not really interested in QFHD/ 4K all my projects are 1920x1080 and the interest in using a 4K camera is to crop /pan/zoom in the image which works really well.

Ron Evans

I am not really interested in QFHD/ 4K all my projects are 1920x1080 and the interest in using a 4K camera is to crop /pan/zoom in the image which works really well.


Thanks Ron. Your last statement is of a great value to me, because if your crops of AX1 QFHD frame in a HD project are of such a good quality, it means the entire AX1 60p picture is. I know, because with some of my HD multicamera classical music project one of the camera is RED, shooting 4K of course, and I used those clips it the same fashion many times. However - depending of course on the size of my cropping window - the results were not so good - definitely always softer than the XDCAM EX material from the remaining EX1 cameras...

BTW, what size (in pixels) your crops are usually?

I go into about 65% so not all the way in to a 1920x1080. EDIUS PRO 7.5 uses Lanczos 3 in the Layouter to do this and the image is close then to the image from the NX30U. It is not as good as a HD image from the AX100 but when further scaled to SD for DVD it is fine in comparison to the other cameras. For BLuray the image is still very good though. I set the AX1 and the NX30U full stage so a lot of the time the crop is just in from full stage to get the full group of actors/dancers.

I will be watching for a more cost effective 4K large sensor than the FS7 as the year progresses to give me better low light performance than the AX1 as I am sure it looses quality when at higher gains.

As far as monitors are concerned. The early 4K TV's that say they are only 25/30Hz their electronics may not be up to driving all the pixels in the display individually at the higher refresh rates so one has to ask how they manage with normal HD since all the pixels have to be driven at the refresh rate. Do they not up scale HD to the full array or do they group pixels for HD display ? There is then of course the possibility that they do no display a HD image as well as a normal HD display. Or like the early Sony TV's just have HDMI 1.4 but can actually display at the full refresh rate but just do not have HDMI 2.0. If it is just the interface then they will likely just repeat the 4K 30P image and maintain the 60hz refresh rate. Then at this point in time I would not buy a monitor that can only display 25/30Hz input as the newer TV'/monitors have all the interfaces and are able to display at their full frame rate or in the case of Sony even faster.

Ron Evans

Thanks Ron. I did a little research, and UHDTVs that give you 4K at full refresh rate that will not ruin your bank account are (these are 50" models as I'm after this very size):

- from Panasonic: VIERA TX-50AX800E
- from Sony: KD-49X8309C

Those are EU models, but of course you can buy them anywhere under slightly different names. The Panasonic - apart from HDMI 2.0 - even has DisplayPort!

Absolutely agree, Jack. However - even though I do consider cameras capable of 50/60 fps (like Z100, for one) - they still only deliver 4k with 4:2:0 color so I wouldn't be losing much in terms of color space ...

The Z100 is 4:2:2 10 bit.

True - I stand corrected.

Z100 is only 10 bit 4:2:2 in intra frame recording for Long GOP it is just like the AX1 8 bit 4:2:0. At 10bit 4:2:2 50/60P the Z100 will consume a 64G card in 12 mins !!!

Ron Evans

Ron, have all the announced updates to Z100 fw come out already or are we still waiting for some new format etc?

To my knowledge both the Z100 and my AX1 still have a USB interface that does not work. Not sure what else is supposed to come.

Ron Evans

Z100 is only 10 bit 4:2:2 in intra frame recording for Long GOP it is just like the AX1 8 bit 4:2:0. At 10bit 4:2:2 50/60P the Z100 will consume a 64G card in 12 mins !!!

Ron Evans

I get 13 minutes. It's a helluva codec.

I get 13 minutes. It's a helluva codec.

Just quoting what I saw. They say about 50 mins for my FDR-AX1 on 64G and I get 56mins normally too. With enough light I am sure Z100 and AX1 give good images but I will look for a better performing camera in low light as all my shooting is in the theatre so the AX1 spends most of its time with gain greater than 12db. My NX5U set up next to the AX1 is at -3db for the same scene !!!

Ron Evans