" CineForm and Wafian are pleased to introduce an excitng new Direct-to-Disk HD-SDI Recorder (code named "SilverOak"). Connected to the component output of the JVC GY-HD100U , SilverOak will record over 5 hours of 1280x720p60 video into the award winning CineForm Intermediate Format. SilverOak delivers superior 10-bit, 4:2:2 Visually Lossless image quality with unsurpassed ease-of-use into CineForm Prospect HD for a real-time post production experience." http://www.dvcamps.com/index.php
Well, now give us price less than $5K :)
But in reality i thinking about $15K:(

To me, this sounds amazing!
Are there any more information about this?

Am I missing something (as I'm not a tech freak) but wont this kill
most of the competitors?

Kind regards
Andreas

Just one more reason why the JVC is the real deal. Tethered or untethered you have options which never existed at the 5K price point before. It's no wonder they are selling them by the pallet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you only would get the 4:2:2 natively if you were recording live, wouldn't you?

Coming off tape you've already compressed and sampled at 4:2:0.

You are correct amigo, the tape will record using the ProHD codec which is 420. Component connection would be required to not get processed by the codec.

Cineform crew are the kings of HD codec. "SilverOak" will take the JVC to the same league as the Varicam. I guess one also need the "prospect HD" package to be able to work with the 10bit 4:2:2 footage!

Unfortunatly I cannot even afford the complete Aspect HD package now when my trial ends in just a few days...but "SilverOak" is something to keep an eye on for the future. Good news indeed!

Keep up the great job Cineform!

If its a Direct to disk HD-SDI/component recorder that means it could work on any cam with a HD-SDI like the new Canon or component outputs like the Sonys right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you only would get the 4:2:2 natively if you were recording live, wouldn't you?

Coming off tape you've already compressed and sampled at 4:2:0.

That's the whole idea - you hook up this unit to your component outs and you can record 4:2:2 natively live direct to disk. You don't come off tape.

Unfortunately, while this sounds like a great idea, unless they can develop secondary codec options like DVCProHD or Avid's DNXHD, the CIF format is .avi and only natively read by Premiere Pro and Vegas.

Without a Quicktime wrapper they are limiting their market significantly. I'd probably still be tempted to get one and transcode though.

If its a Direct to disk HD-SDI/component recorder that means it could work on any cam with a HD-SDI like the new Canon or component outputs like the Sonys right?

http://cineform.blogspot.com/2005/10/canon-xl-h1-early-results.html

...
Unfortunately, while this sounds like a great idea, unless they can develop secondary codec options like DVCProHD or Avid's DNXHD, the CIF format is .avi and only natively read by Premiere Pro and Vegas.

There is little value for use to encode into DVCPROHD, as that is an 8-bit lower resolution format, and Avid DXxHD is a competitive format (Avid will need to produce that product.) We developed CineForm Intermediate to offer full resolution and bit-depth at a quality visually indistiguishable to uncompressed. True it is currently an AVI wrapped codec, which means it runs in nearly every PC application, not just the NLEs we market acceleration solutions for. We are considering a quicktime version of CineForm Intermediate so that apple FCP users can also directly use our products -- unfortunately we have a number of engineering projects in the queue before we can begin a quicktime port.

If its a Direct to disk HD-SDI/component recorder that means it could work on any cam with a HD-SDI like the new Canon or component outputs like the Sonys right?

Yes. This device will capture any single link HD-SDI feedback or analog equivilent (details pending.) That means 1080p, 1080i, 720p at all the common frame rates at 10-bit. Customers are doing direct on-set recording today using Prospect HD systems, the Wafian product will offer similar capture abilities (plus some bonus features.)

Sounds like a sweet concept Dave. How big is this device? Obviously, with all that storage it will probably be bigger than a firestore, but if youre still in the design stages, I think portability is going to be a key selling factor for something like this. It would be nice to not need the bulky setup currently necessary to capture from the component out. Will it be able to capture 720 60p from the JVC?

There is little value for use to encode into DVCPROHD, as that is an 8-bit lower resolution format, and Avid DXxHD is a competitive format (Avid will need to produce that product.) We developed CineForm Intermediate to offer full resolution and bit-depth at a quality visually indistiguishable to uncompressed. True it is currently an AVI wrapped codec, which means it runs in nearly every PC application, not just the NLEs we market acceleration solutions for. We are considering a quicktime version of CineForm Intermediate so that apple FCP users can also directly use our products -- unfortunately we have a number of engineering projects in the queue before we can begin a quicktime port.

Good to hear from you David - This is an exciting product with huge potential. CIF also seems to be the first format on the planet that has solved a lot of the HDV riddles.

It's a shame that you consider DnxHD a competing product though - it only exists on the Avid platform, I don't think it's marketed separately to their NLE's and you guys don't currently make an Avid version of CIF :) which would be a "real good thing".

I have 3 Avid suites so I may be a tad biased.... maybe I'll just buy Premiere Pro / Vegas

John, Avid allows you to download and use their codec for free. So in a sense, it is a competing product. Smart move on Avids part to allow playback on non Avid systems. I believe Ikegama is going to be using their codec.

Sounds like a sweet concept Dave. How big is this device? Obviously, with all that storage it will probably be bigger than a firestore, but if youre still in the design stages, I think portability is going to be a key selling factor for something like this. It would be nice to not need the bulky setup currently necessary to capture from the component out. Will it be able to capture 720 60p from the JVC?

The first version of the device is an on set recorder to replace D5 or HDCAM-SR (i.e. tape based 10-bit recorders.) So it will not be portable like the firestore device, but the first application is quality and post-production convience. So we aren't trying to complete with firestore style of product yet. We thinking more about a device for indie filmmakers that works the way Lucas and Rodriguez shoot these days (at 1/10th the cost.)

It will support the 720p60 mode from the JVC GY-HD100.

Just my speculation. This Ingest Box not fpga based.
Core is P4-M-552. It is correct, David?

David,

Since your testing the Canon... how long till we have a drive ready for that camera... hopefully around release time...

Thanks,

Gary

Just my speculation. This Ingest Box not fpga based.
Core is P4-M-552. It is correct, David?

Correct, it is not FPGA based, but it is not Pentium-M based (too slow for 1920x1080 10-bit.)

John, Avid allows you to download and use their codec for free. So in a sense, it is a competing product. Smart move on Avids part to allow playback on non Avid systems. I believe Ikegama is going to be using their codec.

I guess - but you can't digitise to it without the DnxHD board, so really it's only a post solution for programs like AfterFX etc (unless you have an Adrenaline or above with the HD board).

Still I understand your position.

So...no 24p for the HD100?

So...no 24p for the HD100?

I'm pretty sure Dave answered that question in the following post.

Yes. This device will capture any single link HD-SDI feedback or analog equivilent (details pending.) That means 1080p, 1080i, 720p at all the common frame rates at 10-bit. Customers are doing direct on-set recording today using Prospect HD systems, the Wafian product will offer similar capture abilities (plus some bonus features.)

"all the common frame rates" 24p I would say is a common frame rate. The only reason I asked him about 720 60p is that there seems to be some disagreement in this forum as to whether or not the HD100 supports that through the component out.

Yes to 24p and yes 60p.

Good to hear David. I doubt it will be cheap enough for me, but I look forward to an cheap attachable version one day for cheap HD cameras.

Wayne, what you think about "cheap attachable version" CFHD DVR 720p based on ETX-IM333 computer-on-module.
Adlink Technology releases its new ETX-IM333 computer-on-module based on the ETX form factor. The ETX-IM333 is based on the Intel 855GME chipset and supports both Intel Pentium M processors from 1.1GHz to 2.0GHz and Celeron M processors from 600MHz to 1.3GHz. Both the chipset and processor are part of the Embedded Intel Architecture program that warrants long production life for applications that need extended availability. The module supports CRT/LVDS displays, 10 Base-T/100 Base-TX Ethernet, Ultra ATA EIDE, four USB 2.0 ports, AC ‘97 Audio, Serial/Parallel ports and Keyboard/Mouse.

The ETX-IM333 supports embedded features such as RS-232 console redirection, CMOS EEPROM backup for BIOS settings, allowing battery-less operation, USB boot/legacy, and PXE. The board is also available with an optional advanced next-generation video encoder that converts PC graphics data at a maximum 1280x1024 resolution to PAL (50Hz) or NTSC (60Hz) video signals. Alternatively the encoder can output Y, PB, and PR signals for HDTV i1080 monitors.

http://www.adlinktech.com/news/news_detail.php?file=Products/n_121.htm

The first version of the device is an on set recorder to replace D5 or HDCAM-SR (i.e. tape based 10-bit recorders.) So it will not be portable like the firestore device...

Bummer, I thought that was the whole point of the Wafian recorder. If it's just a non-portable box, how is that any different from building a computer with an HD-SDI card and capturing to any desired HD codec? A portable version would be much more significant, because it would offer a direct alternative to shooting with the Panasonic HVX200 using the matching Firestore drive for that camera.

Bummer, I thought that was the whole point of the Wafian recorder. If it's just a non-portable box, how is that any different from building a computer with an HD-SDI card and capturing to any desired HD codec? A portable version would be much more significant, because it would offer a direct alternative to shooting with the Panasonic HVX200 using the matching Firestore drive for that camera.

I have to agree Kevin - no doubt it might be tricked up with some hardwired VTR style buttons, but at the end of the day if its just a miniPC... well you can't put it on your camera.

It is absolutely true that you can capture HDSDI feed into a PC for a similar effect, yet there are a lot of advantages for the Wafian recorder will have over self configured setups. It is a lot smaller than you average workstation, allowing for more imaginative applications; one of our customers is planning to place the unit in the trunk/boot of a car (for in car shoots) and control the unit wirelessly. The unit is a lot quieter than your average workstation as the CineForm compression can always store full res. HD to a single drive, large RAIDs are not needed; there are very few compressors that are both real-time and produce a small enough small enough output at the high quality we target, and be quiet enough to be on the set. Currently the only competitor in the same price range will be Prospect HD work stations, and we have customers currently and in the past, directly capturing to their Prospect systems. The Wafian makes that workflow easier, and much cheaper than a D5 or SR deck. Hopefully with the success of this product will allow units to get small and battery driven, and eventually totally portable for a wider range of shooting conditions.

A portable version would be much more significant, because it would offer a direct alternative to shooting with the Panasonic HVX200 using the matching Firestore drive for that camera.

You've got a point about portability (though the JVCHD100 is already portable with a portable HD codec in HDV. Further to this, the 720p24 mode of HDV codec is expected to perform as well if not better than the 720p24 mode of the DVCPRO-HD)

However, you're comparing:
1920x1080 and 1280x720 10-bit 4:2:2
to
1280x1080 and 960x720 8-bit 4:2:2 (or 2.67:1.33:1.33 and 3:1.5:1.5 compared ot the native resolution).

It's pretty easy to guess which will look better.

-Steve

Currently the only competitor in the same price range will be Prospect HD work stations...

If I needed live HD-SDI recording and couldn't get it in portable form, then I'd probably just build a workstation since I'd need that to do the editing anyway. Small size and low noise could be advantages for the Wafian recorder, but maybe not by much compared to hand-picking computer parts.

As far as competition is concerned, what about computer-based HD-SDI solutions using Avid, Apple or Canopus products? Even uncompressed HD capture isn't all that expensive these days, considering you can buy two terabytes of storage with a good SATA RAID card for under $1500. Once we remove portability from the discussion, there are a lot of options which could be considered.

Once we remove portability from the discussion, there are a lot of options which could be considered.

Please, do not make this!:)
We must concentrate on portability.
CFHD highly optimised for pentium M and as David Newman have said: real time encoding 720p24 possible with laptop P4M760 based. Only need component or hd-sdi adapter/convertor for laptop like this PCMCIA: http://www.imperx.com/frame_grabbers/camera_link/framelink.html
and capture software alike DV Rack.

As far as competition is concerned, what about computer-based HD-SDI solutions using Avid, Apple or Canopus products? Even uncompressed HD capture isn't all that expensive these days, considering you can buy two terabytes of storage with a good SATA RAID card for under $1500. Once we remove portability from the discussion, there are a lot of options which could be considered.

The competitive solutions have no real-time 10-bit compression options without expensive acceleration hardware, i.e. we cost much less for 10-bit quality or the competitors are 8-bit only. Uncompressed solutions have their issues as well, try acquiring a 20X shoot ratio to uncompressed (for a 90 minutes feature you will need 15 terabytes.) Your 2TB work-station wouldn't cut it for anything but a short. We have worked through these issues with many customers and even as the Wafian unit it in pre-beta they are starting to sell as many are now realizing we have an excellent solution.

Fair enough, although it sounds like there isn't currently 10-bit output from the HD-SDI ports on the XL-H1. Can you tell us approximate pricing yet on the Wafian unit, and what is the capacity of the base model?

The details on the Wafian unit are still pending. The initial configuration will store 7-9 hours of 1920x1080 10-bit with mirrored redundancy (this is the master so it protected through mirroring.) There will be an option to go without mirroring which will double the capacity for the same unit. The primary configuration (not really a base) will retail for around $15k.

Wayne, what you think about "cheap attachable version" CFHD DVR 720p based on ETX-IM333 computer-on-module.


http://www.adlinktech.com/news/news_detail.php?file=Products/n_121.htm

I don't know anymore. Recently there was a post about a multiple AMD cpu MB with multiple Gige (looks nice) in the custom HD camera threads of Alternative Imaging forum. There have been a number, but until somebody does a solution from camera head through software to drive, such solutions are not going anywhere.

I give up. Where would I goto to find out about cheap RGB/4:4:4 SD capture (even 640*480 or less)?

Thanks

Wayne.

but until somebody does a solution from camera head through software to drive, such solutions are not going anywhere.


I should point out, that as far as using the cineform software with supported hardware and camera, this would not be a problem.

More Details About Wafian’s HR-1:
http://www.cineform.com/press/rel-WafianHR1.htm
http://www.wafian.com/