One of my friends had a chat with a sound designer for video games and he said the H4n is no longer industry standard for sound acquisition.

I was going to get an H4n for any situations where I'm hired on a DSLR shoot (very common nowadays) but with it no longer being industry standard, I'm wondering what is the new industry standard portable recorder?

The H4n has been replaced by the H5 and H6, depending on how many inputs you need.

And the preamps are significantly better in the H5/H6, I definitely recommend one of those over the H4n.

IMHO, all the a above are hobbyist level, with prices to match.
Though, in the hands of a pro audio person... VMMV.

What brand other than Zoom would be considered industry standard at the moment? And I need 2 opinions: A freelancer's opinion and a sound guy's opinion.

My budget is $300. If there's nothing better than Zoom, I'll seriously consider the H5.

Why is it so important that it is "industry standard" if the h4n does what it needs to do for your purpose?

I think Sound Devices has been a standard with the pros for years. I see more of that than any brand of stuff in the audio bags of the guys working it day in and day out.

I agree with Chris, Sound Devices is the "industry standard" for pros. Just imagine that you're doing the sound for "24". Jack Bauer whispers his dialog. You need a very clean recorder to capture good whispers.

Zoom and Tascam share a good piece of the hobbyist/indie market. $300 is about right. The quality is very good for the money, but not great.

In the gap, we bought the Fostex FR-2LE. It's quite clean and can be even cleaner with some 3rd party mods. That said, compared to a Sound Devices product, the Fostex is flimsy plastic. I haven't tried their DC-R302 so I don't know if the sound is better or not, but it's newer and looks to be more robust. It's packaged to mount to a DSLR. The FR-2LE is better suited to a dedicated audio operator (who is very gentle with the equipment. We haven't had any problems but we haven't dropped it either.)

I think the confusion is about the term "industry standard." That tends to refer to products used widely by top professionals, not to products that are purchased on a budget - even though the budget products might sell in higher volumes than the pro products.

DSLR format maybe a common format but it's not regarded as 'industry standard' for broadcast and above, yes it might be the standard for new people into the industry but people rarely produce more than one thing on this format. It's more suited to the hobbiest level where time is of little concern and $$$ are low.

Then I should re-phrase that by "Best in indie standards."

Looked at the Fostex and they are all 2ch recorders, but the key difference is great pre-amps.

For my situation, a 4ch setup is more of what I'm looking for so I'm leaning towards the H5.

Nowadays the concept of industry standard has gone away, because the industry seems to have such wide and variable budgets. Broadcast quality was another old term, that now means little. Industry standard for big budget productions is different, ands goes up against industry standard for low cost budgets. The zooms do a pretty good job at their price point, and the quality of the expensive ones is better, but nowadays the difference is less than it used to be.

The Tascam 70D might be worth looking at. I've used the Zoom H6 and it's a nice step up from the H4n, but some folks are saying that the preamps in the 70D are better than those in the Zoom.

Product: DR-70D | TASCAM (http://tascam.com/product/dr-70d/)

Fran

I've owned the H4, H5 and a variety of Tascams as well as a 661 and a bunch of others that have been loaned to me. The H5 is a swiss army knife of a low end unit, and I like and use it for just what you are wanting to do. I used it a lot. You will spend more than $300 to kit it out with it's various options (like the additional xlr adapter if you need 4 channels). I feel that the recordings are a bit harsh (and have been on the H4 as well. Your other option would be to look at the Tascam 70d which is likely to have a bit sweeter tone. The Marantz has the best tone of the batch, IMHO> Farther up the quality and price range, without breaking the bank, is the DR680 is an 6/8 track unit. A very picky sound engineer I know loves this unit and feels it is as good as much of his studio gear, which really surprised me. I have also used, and really like the sound from the Edirol R44. It's probably the best sound under $1000 that I've personally heard. It might all be lost on you if all you are looking for is dialogue, so clearly define your requirements. I do a lot of live stage shows with pro musicians so they are *very* picky.

Whatever, the H4 was not even that good in it's day. It's the only unit that failed utterly and needed to be thrown out. All the rest have taken lots of abuse and never failed.

If you really want the best, Sound Devices are the way to go. You can often find them on Ebay for a lot less than list if you can do used.

Ty Ford did a very comprehensive review of the H5 here:

Ty Ford Audio and Video: ZOOM H5 - Somewhere Between H4 and H6 (http://tyfordaudiovideo.blogspot.com/2014/08/zoom-h5-somewhere-between-4-and-6.html)

I recently picked up a H6. I have only used it on a few gigs but am very happy with it. If you are interested in using the -12db back up feature you need to know it only works on the top L/R inputs. That means you will need the XLR adapter or else your stuck with the onboard mics I have little use for. That is how the H6 works, I don't know if the H5 is the same. Great feature though.

I am not good enough to discuss the "sweetness of tones" and such. I can tell tell you I like the preamps because they are clean enough for me.

I also love the fact you can power it from any 5V USB mini source. That rocks!

Steve

I recently had an audio issue with both my camera and H4N involving high sound levels and their preamps. My Sound Devices 302 puts them both to shame. That being said my H4N has saved my bacon on a couple occasions. Sometimes it's better to have some audio than none. Or in a given venue the quality of the audio isn't as crucial. There is no shame getting lower end equipment and upgrading to something better when your budget permits or you find your equipment doesn't do what you need.

It's all relative isn't it?

Compared to a distant, noisy camera-mounted mic in the wind, an H4n with a properly used, good mic sounds fantastic!

Compared to old, battery-powered, analog tape-based recorders, the fidelity of mid-grade digital recorders gives amazing value with high quality, low size and weight and long battery life at crazy low prices (considering inflation.)

Of course, the best pro equipment has higher quality, but often mid-grade quality is more than good enough. If there's no audible buzz, hiss or wind buffeting, and the dialog is intelligible, few will complain about poor audio from your video stream.

Then again, if your sound will be cranked up LOUD at the cineplex, don't compromise. Theater sound is unforgiving. I have yet to hear a 48 hour film sound anything like a blockbuster!

My friend's sound guy got back to me and "the new industry standard" is the Sony PCM-M10.

Wait, what?

First off, it has no XLR inputs.

Secondly, see point #1. It may be good for sound pickup with it's internal mics but working with XLR mics is going to be impossible with that unit.

Out of all the choices, the one in the sweet spot is the H5 IMHO. Wish it came with the 90/120 degree mic on the H6, but I like that the included capsules have more dynamic range in louder situations.

I still don't understand why you are so focused on the term "industry standard", it's been pointed out here that Sound Devices is the "industry standard" among sound professionals yet now you prefer a H5 which is more a "semi-pro/hobbyist standard", are your clients expecting "industry standard" or do you just want a good not too expensive recorder for your dslr?

Their words, not mine.

For me, a good balance between quality and price is the H5, which is exactly what you just described it as, which is exactly my expectations.

Somewhere along the lines of communication, I think my friend is confusing the term more than me, since his experience has only been PA stuff or indie films.

The next question is what 'industry standard' microphones are you going to use?

Planning on a Rode NTG-1 and a Sony ECM-77B Lav, otherwise it's what the crew gives me.

More often than not it's if I get hired on a DSLR shoot.

The Rode NTG1 and NTG 2 are NOT regarded as 'industry' standard..... the NTG 3 is.

Also the NTG 1 / 2 are fairly high current draw and will give you VERY poor battery life on the recorder, also do some research on the mics and recorders you intend to use.

There is a HUGE amount if you google "Rode NTG 2 and H4n"

I need a short mic to mount on camera when used with personal equipment like my EX1R for run & gun situations. The NTG-3 is too long, which means it could snap off the plastic mic holder on my camera.

What's a good short shotgun then? My personal shooting style is ENG, but when I'm hired with DSLR shoots, I want to be able to use the same mic for pickup.

How's the Audio Technica AT875? or the Shure VP82?

The AT875 is a very good, very short, shotgun-type mic. I've always had great results with it in a variety of situations. Keep in mind that some boompole shockmounts may be too long for it, but camera mounts and smaller shockmounts are fine.

It is phantom-power only, but can run on voltages that range from 11-52v with a very low current draw. So it's not a problem with a regular video camera or a battery-phantom-power adapter.

Battery life of a smaller XLR-capable recorder will be shorter of course if phantom power is on.

My purposes are not to have it on a boom pole, it's more for setting it down in a fixed position like the camera or a mic stand.

So no one has experience with the VP82?

I haven't used the VP82, but the specs show it is exactly half as sensitive as the AT875.

Using with a recorder with preamps that need all the help they can get, in a quiet environment, I'd recommend the greater output of the AT875.

If you're using with good, sensitive preamps in a loud environment, the greater sensitivity wouldn't be needed. (And could even be counter-productive without an attenuator.)

Right, All I have for pre-amps are the H5 and the EX1R onboard XLRs. I'm going with the Audio Technica then.

My purposes are not to have it on a boom pole, it's more for setting it down in a fixed position like the camera or a mic stand.

As long as you realize that even shotguns need to be within about 24 inches of the talent to pick up speech properly. For other than general ambient sound recording, on-camera is usually the very last place you want to put your microphone. Shotguns don't increase pickup of the source they're pointed at; rather, they decrease the pickup of sound sources they're not pointed towards.

I use a wide angle adapter for my camera and tend to do news style interviews if the shotgun is on the camera. That shouldn't be a problem for news situations. As that is the majority of my shooting, it's a better fit than needing a long one for dedicated/dramatic productions.

I currently run with an SM58 for interviews... shows how little I know about audio, right?

I have a friend who shot news for many years. For run 'n gun interviews, he'd control the ENG camera with his right hand, set the lens wide, move in close, and hold the detachable mic in his left hand as close as he could get it to the subject without getting it into the frame. This is a nice trick for getting the mic as close as possible and aiming it directly at the person speaking, rather than at the center of the frame.

But this raises another question. The scenario above is for when there is no dedicated sound person. In my experience, I like using a separate recorder when I have a separate person to operate it. When shooting solo, I much prefer to record into the camera. For this use, I'd go with a juicedLink preamp or with a solid mount recorder like the Fostex DC-R302, which includes a line out to the camera. (With a separate recorder and with multiple pressed to go from Stop to Standby to Record, it's easy to end up with video and no audio. Believe me. I've done this. I've also had the battery die on a recorder without me noticing it as I watch framing.)

But you mentioned that you want four channels. That's at odds with the run 'n gun application. So I'm a bit confused by the use case.

I didn't understand the need for 4 channels unless he's handling all the audio for a group of shooters. H5 or H6 seems to be the popular choice for this type of work.

I don't get this whole dslr wedding craz. The idea of a bunch of ppl running around with dslrs trying to make a movie set of my wedding... I can only think what pro wedding photographer thinks.

But you mentioned that you want four channels. That's at odds with the run 'n gun application. So I'm a bit confused by the use case.

I do both that and the odd indie production in a controlled environment. I just needed something that would suit both, and be ready for productions that only had a DSLR.

I don't get this whole dslr wedding craz. The idea of a bunch of ppl running around with dslrs trying to make a movie set of my wedding... I can only think what pro wedding photographer thinks.

Not sure what this remark has to do with this topic but you might shoot a few weddings to be able to form a better opinion about us wedding shooters.