Geez, Paul, whatever you are doing, please keep doing it. You are checking out all the cams I am looking at and trouble shooting my issues for me!

Seriously, I find your feedback invaluable.


Tim

Thanks for the appreciation Tim.

As for you asking about the X70 purchase, I think my X70 looks BETTER at wide angle than my X180, but when you push in on the zoom and loose that 20MP interpolation or whatever it's called, the X70 gets a lot more "Handycam", especially as the gain increases. There is another person with a JVC HM200 that is reporting unexpectedly good low light results. The manual controls on that camera, with low light at or possibly a bit better than the X70, would put that on my radar. I may be suggesting an HM200 to my station as a live shot camera pending more reviews and direct comparisons against known performing models. :)

Paul

Hi everyone. I was just about to pull the trigger on an X180 when I read this thread. Does anyone have updated/further thoughts on the X180 and the X200? I am also strongly considering the Panasonic PX270, but like the wider zoom on the X180 and the ability to do 120 fps. However, if there are real flaws with the camera (focus assist, soft zoom, etc), then I may go with the Panny. Thanks.

Hi Steve,
As I continue to use the X180, I seem to keep finding more uses for it / things that I like about it. Of course the big one is the 25x zoom range - which I made use of (needed) last week for a multicamera live cooking competition shoot. With the extended zoom range we were able to shoot CUs of food cooking (shooting into overhead mirrors) as well as zoom out for wide coverage as needed. It intercut great with PMW200 and F3 cameras as well for our live feed. I've also become a big fan of using the built-in variable ND filter, and love the fact that I can switch gains without the image suddenly changing in brightness. Both the VF and the Flip-out screen are big improvements over my PMW200. Plus having the Waveform/Vectorscope as well as Histogram options is a big improvement. My biggest complaint is that the responsiveness of my LANC zoom control isn't as good as my (special connector) EX zoom controls on the PMW200. I keep several cameras around and try to use the right one(s) for each assignment - and I find that the X180 is getting more and more use.

Thanks Dave. How do you find the lens wide open -- I've seen reports that it is soft? Also, how do the focus aids work -- I've also heard people struggle with them. One report that seemed pretty thorough came from tubeshooter. Thanks.

I just received my X200's today and still have the X180 on demo and here's a super quick test I did before I need to get out to a client shoot:
https://youtu.be/Zjqji-5WOio

Thanks Dave. How do you find the lens wide open -- I've seen reports that it is soft? Also, how do the focus aids work -- I've also heard people struggle with them. One report that seemed pretty thorough came from tubeshooter. Thanks.

Hi Steve,
To my eye the X180 isn't quite as sharp as my PMW200 wide open, but I've been ok with that as a tradeoff for the increased zoom range. (It's also certainly not as sharp as my F3 with Nikon glass, but as mentioned I've been able to intercut the three without any real problems.) But I also tend to reduce the detail level on the cameras a bit as well...
In terms of focus, I don't tend to use any of the auto-focus functionality -- I keep it on manual 99.9% of the time. The focus expansion button does get used a lot for checking -- and when outside I find the viewfinder fine for operating (as opposed to the VF on the F3, which I abandon in favor of a Zacuto EVF.)
Interestingly enough (speaking of sharpness) last week I worked on a couple of multi-F3-camera shoots for which we rented 19-90mm and 85-300mm Cabrios -- and even after verifying back focus with a large monitor I never felt I was getting the same kind of sharpness that I obtain from the Nikon 28-70 2.8. I suppose I'd call the cabrios 'sufficiently sharp'...
Also -- The exposure comparison from Rob is about what I'd expect - with 1/3" sensors having about 1/2 the area of 1/2" sensors -- though once you get past the exposure difference, the sharpness difference doesn't seem that great. Too bad there's not a split screen with the two cameras (at diff f/stops) comparing the look of the same basic exposure level for the finished images...

Thanks Rob and Dave. The X200 clearly has a more sensitive sensor -- impressive.

For manual focus, do you use peaking? How well does it work? Thanks.

I'm personally not a huge peaking fan. I do keep one of my assign buttons available for turning it on and off, but for the most part I'll use the 'focus mag' function.
Interestingly enough, on the X180 punching in with Focus Mag doesn't disable the peaking.
I'll tend to set the peaking level pretty low, since it seems to me that some peaking may still occur in 'not quite as sharp' areas. For some things it can be useful - such as helping me stay confident that my interview subject is still in focus after a series of forward and backward leans. Once I establish critical focus, I'll take a look at how the peaking plays (especially if the subject has a beard or other facial hair.)
Of course the biggest aspect of maintaining focus is getting your fingers used to how far to pull on the lens...

Sweeeeet! It is important to keep in mind that the X180 is rated at (NTSC) f9@2000, and the X200 is rated at f12@2000. That means the X200 has an extra 5db of apparent gain/sensitivity. Not to be ignored though is that these tests were performed at f4, and the X180 can open up to f1.6 vs the X200 at f1.9. That gives the X180 back 3db of that apparent lost gain/sensitivity.

That still leaves the X200 2db ahead wide open, but when you factor in the lens ramping, where the X180 will only be at 1/3 zoom range when the X200 is 1/2 through it's zoom, you get back more light sensitivity in the X180 which should have less ramping at that point of it's range. Would be interesting to see both cameras wide open at 18db in the darkness, that's how I use my camera, and that is the limiting factor for most ENG shooters. :)

Thanks Rob!

Paul

I'll do a low light shot with both wide open at 18dB and post the results.
I'll also do wide open (widest iris) on both at 0db and have a look at the lens ramping through the zoom, although this is not actually shown on the X200 in the LCD, whereas the X180 does display this.
I shot with the same settings on both to see what low performance difference was and when I used a white card and waveform monitor the X200 is roughly 9dB more sensitive at the settings I used ie. same settings for both cameras!

That's about 1/2 stop more sensitive than the published figures would indicate. You never know till you put he dang things side by side! I put the X180 f9@2000 f1.6 up against my work JVC HM790 f10@2000 f1.4, and the X180 is at least a STOP more sensitive. Again, not what the specs would indicate. The JVC's are the WORST cameras I have ever had the displeasure to be forced to use at night.

My X70 and X180 BOTH hit their smallest ramped aperture at around 65% of the optical zoom range.

Paul

Well, my new X200 just arrived. Trying to adjust to the yellow/green tinted viewfinder.

Very first observation after that...."Wow, this camera isn't any better in low light than my X180.". That was a major bummer.

Anyway, is there a way to assign a SLS value (1/30) to the shutter switch or any other physical switch/button like on the X180? I use that function for literally half the clips I shoot at night, I am toggling it more than the iris.

Paul

This just in, PXW-X200 EVF is disabled when network functionality is enabled. This is a wonderful revelation for me, as my contact lenses preclude me from seeing the LCD, and the camera live streams whenever it is used.

I am just not having any luck with Sony products........

Paul

Hey Paul, since I hardly ever use the EVF, that was not something I came across, so "good" to know.
Wifi disables a number of features that can be useful so I'll add this to the list...

My new baby is ready for live news broadcasting now. The Genustech VCT14 adaptor fits just right, and the USB modem connector is a massive improvement over the X180. Oh yeah, that is my Panasonic AG-MC700P short shotgun microphone with OEM windscreen. Going to replace it with a Sanken CS3e soon. That will ruin the uncomplicated ergonomics, but vastly improve the audio.

Hey Paul, since I hardly ever use the EVF, that was not something I came across, so "good" to know.
Wifi disables a number of features that can be useful so I'll add this to the list...

Rob, the issue isn't so much the "WiFi", but if you have the Network/Proxy menu item ON. Even if I have the WiFi or Modem disconnected, or no SD card in the proxy slot, it still deactivates the EVF, 1080p60, and all those other things. Other stupid irritations include 1/60 shutter being the SLOWEST possible in 1080p60 mode, no color bars available in SLS mode etc. It's almost as if someone rushed the firmware out the door without being able to complete it, as so many of these things don't seem to be related in any mechanical or electrical way, it makes no sense.

Paul

Not wanting to take this thread off track but from what I've seen and read the last 12-18 months, Paul's statement is becoming worryingly common with Sony's latest (and very frequent) new camera releases.

To quote Paul: "It's almost as if someone rushed the firmware out the door without being able to complete it."

What's even more worrying is that it can then take months and months for the "beta" firmware to get fixed with updates to sort out annoying issues. Often the issues users find are ones that should never had made it to the marketplace in professional cameras (and in some cases it's looking like they'll never be fixed).

Not knocking Sony (I've used their consumer and then professional cams for 15 years)…well I am knocking them a bit... but some other camera manufacturers take a different approach. Just an observation and certainly one that would worry me if I was to buy another Sony cam anytime soon.

The word "cannot" appears 172 times in the version 13 operations manual for the X200. That is an average of 10 times a page, not joking. :-)

Paul

Rob, the issue isn't so much the "WiFi", but if you have the Network/Proxy menu item ON. Even if I have the WiFi or Modem disconnected, or no SD card in the proxy slot, it still deactivates the EVF, 1080p60, and all those other things. Other stupid irritations include 1/60 shutter being the SLOWEST possible in 1080p60 mode, no color bars available in SLS mode etc. It's almost as if someone rushed the firmware out the door without being able to complete it, as so many of these things don't seem to be related in any mechanical or electrical way, it makes no sense.

Paul

Close the LCD completely and the EVF will come on even with Network enabled!
A really strange/quirky way of getting the EVF to work.
It's totally inferior to the X180 EVF both in picture quality and "activation" method!!!
Why not have the eye sensor like the X180???

Yeah, the LCD/EVF situation on the X200 is atrocious! It's not just an evaluation of the camera, it is the evaluation of the camera vs it's own cheaper sibling, which has the same LCD even, but it doesn't have a hard green tint to it! The only use I can find for the EVF on the X200 is framing and color accuracy checking. It cannot be used to judge exposure or focus, not for me at least. The X180 has a very accurate (if a bit cool) LCD, but the EVF is what I used on it 90% of the time. The EVF on the X180 is sharper for me than the LCD, so I used it for critical focusing. This crap with the EVF deactivating with the LCD in network mode is killing me, because checking if my colors (street lights) or white balance is off requires slamming the LCD closed. At least the X200 LCD doesn't sag like my X180, which rests about 5-7 degrees down on the far left side, crooked. :-)

Paul