Hi Everyone,

Thank you for this forum and all your contributions to it.

Could you please help me sort out some concerns about the PXW-X70? I'm debating between it and the JVC GY-HM600 or similar.

1. Highlight Handling. I know all cameras blow highlights, but the X70 seems to exhibit particular difficulties (from the online samples I've looked at). I would describe the transitions to white or blown out as "bit crunching," like reducing a video card to 256 colors, making the image look "cheap" when it has any large blown out areas, and to me this almost negates the benefits of the 10-bit 4:2:2 codec. Can this be fixed in-camera by tweaking the exposure, picture profiles and/or gamma curve, and directly record an acceptable image without having to fix in post, or is the only way to under-expose and fix in post? For news shooting, it would seem more convenient to be able to get decent levels and colors straight out of the camera.

2. Dynamic Range. It's hard to tell from online videos, but, despite the specs "on paper," is the dynamic range (and color) of the X70 noticeably better in practice than that of 1/3" 3-chip cams such as the JVC GY-HM600? The HM600 does seem to blow highlights more smoothly than the X70, IMHO.

3. Ergonomics. How is holding the X70 for longer shoots such as street interviews? And, how is the responsiveness of the X70's focus/zoom ring as opposed to larger cameras such as the HM600? I've read it takes a much larger turn to focus/zoom than other cams. What about not having three rings -- do you miss that feature of other cams?

4. Aesthetics. In terms of news shooting for an independent journalist not affiliated with a major organization, and the point of view of the public around you, what are the pros and cons of the smaller form factor of the X70? I've read about the "pros" of being low-profile and appearing like a tourist, but what about the cons? Do you feel to appear less professional because of the smaller cam? Is it easier or more difficult to gain media access with it, or the same? How do people react to this camera as opposed to a larger cam? Or, is society getting used to pro shooters carrying smaller and smaller gear nowadays?

Thanks so much for your time and input.

I think the big thing with the PWX 70 is it's a 1inch chip 4:2:2: 10 bit camera. I was also debating the same question and going on numbers, 4:2:2: 10 bit is a winner.

1. Highlight Handling.

2. Dynamic Range.

3. Ergonomics.

4. Aesthetics.

#1 and 2. This was my major concern initially which I have answered to my satisfaction with certain settings I use for extreme highlight and dynamic range scenarios. Various modifications to which suit other shooting situations like indoors using different black level settings etc. An example of extreme outdoors highlights with demanding dynamic range can be downloaded from here.

www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/t9yiwl

#3. I've had a few sideways glances from some other TV crews and clients when I drag this little thing out but they know me well enough to know that I won't turn up on a shoot with tools that won't do the job. I have now used it on numerous corporate shoots, concert shoots and a number of national press conferences and everybody has been happy with the results. Looks fine on TV. I use it handheld or with a small shoulder mount. If it's a longer shoot then a Miller 10 sized tripod or Manfrotto's chicken foot monopod does the job very well. I enjoy working with a lightweight kit again.

#4. I really don't pay too much heed to others perceptions based on 'size.' I'm after functionality. If you have the confidence in your own judgement and ability and know what the camera can do and your clients trust in that judgement of yours then there is nothing stopping you doing a job with this camera. Its not for all jobs for sure but there are many instances where it can be used to achieve the same or similar results as a traditional larger ENG type camera. As far as speed of use and deployment goes, once you get your head around how to use its controls, you will find the camera offers you more flexibly in many instances than a large camera in many tight crowded presser type situations.

If you hunt back through the X70 posts on this forum I think you will find enough links to footage that could help you in your decision making process.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Greetings to the members of the X70 fan club on dvinfo.net! I've been lurking here for several weeks and this is my first post. I've read most (if not all) comments/reviews about the X70, NX30, AX100 and the just announced AX33 all from Sony. I'd like to add my two or three primary key points to the original request:

(o) Stabilization for handheld steadycam-style of shooting
I've bought Joe Caneen's (The Video Whisperer) book "Run and Gun Videography" (runandgunvideography.com ) and there he wrote "I did a side-by-side comparison for stabilization in a test with both [X70 and NX30] cameras on the same mount and there was no discernible difference in the stabilization characteristics, though each camera achieves the result using different technologies." Here is a nice demonstration Sony PXW X70, A Cameraman's Review - YouTube

(o) 4K (with image stabilization)
Since the X70 doesn't have internal 4K at the moment, the big question how (non-BOSS) image stabilization is going to work in 4K shooting. The just announced AX33 has BOSS and 4K, but none of the reviews covered it deep enough to judge.

4K would be great help to the kind of videos (multiplayer card/board game instructional, for example) I am making. Ultimate image stabilization is not really required for my 4K videos, but I terribly need it for workshop videos.

Thanks, Miki

I shoot LIVE SHOTS with my X70 and my stations HM650 nightly. The 650 handles highlights better, the X70 blows out fast and hard. The 650 also has better colors. Reds on the X70 cut orange, and blues cut green.

Dynamic range? I like it better than my 650 or 790. They have bigger chips but the X70 settings can allow more usable variances than my JVC's. On the JVC's, even going up or down one step on a gamma or black level renders the image "graded" (almost an effect) and not really simply adjusted like the X70.

Weight? I use a heavy 16x9 EXII wide converter and a large CN302 LED on the front end, lots of weight out front, but I can hand hold it for over an hour without any real strain. The handgrip really is nice in this respect, and I mostly put my left hand under the wide angle barrel to keep it steady. You can also convert the handle 1/4"-20 hole into another standard shoe using an included bolt on shoe provided as standard. Putting a heavy light further back balances better, but you loose easy access to the carry handle.

I wear station clothing, with logos and such, and in this case, most of the time the size of the camera is ignored.

Paul

Here is an example of the X70 being used for run and gun news, with a 16x9 EXII wide converter. Shot this last night, on FAW, night at a gas station, stressful lighting and contrast. And yes I sound like a bumbling fool all the time, I'm a photog not a reporter dammit! :)

http://www.10news.com/news/driver-tries-to-run-down-gas-station-employee-in-city-heights?autoplay=true

Hey Paul - don't be so hard on yourself. I watched the news clip after your disclaimer. You told the story well with your images, and then backed that up with your eye witness verbal account which sounded quite believable. This from someone who toiled in the trenches of radio news for 20 years :)

You can make out a scanner in the background, it's difficult to do a "look-live" talking walking recorded spot while trying to be the assignment desk all by yourself in the field at night......I just realized that web clip is extremely low quality, I can post some of the RAW footage if the OP is interested in seeing how it handles those intense highlights and contrast.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Quick question in regards to both the JVC650 & X70. I know its a loaded question but out of the two which is winning for you on picture quality and ease of use.

I was very close to getting the JVC650 as my second run around cam but now the X70 is making me think.

Cheers,
Simon

I HATE the 650. Yeah, it may have a technically better picture, does better in low light, has much better color and highlight handling, can shoot 1080p60 XAVC S, has better switches, but for what I do with it, it is horrible. First off is the terrible image stabilization, it might as well not have any. I thought the X70 has poor OIS. The LCD on the 650 is yellow/green, and the peaking is so wreched it feels like looking at 36db gain even at 6db gain on the LCD. The EVF has a gamma problem, blacks and greys are both deep black. I use these cameras mainly for hand held walking live shots with a wide converter, and use the X70 as much as possible. The only things going for me for the 650 are the PHYSICAL gain switch, and the color superiority, red car taillights stay deep red, not orange, blue LED lights are blue, not cyan, etc. Here is a clip I shot on the 650 with a custom calibration. You can see what I mean by color handling in those taillights. They have me moving to the 650 more now for it's built in Zixi live function, which has about a 25% success rate in the field BTW.

Robbers pistol-whip Rolando pot shop employee - 10News.com KGTV ABC10 San Diego (http://www.10news.com/news/robbers-pistol-whip-rolando-pot-shop-employee)

Thanks for your feed back Paul, I use the JVC700, 750 for a lot of gigs through a client that owns them here and find there ok for what we do. I noticed one of the big Networks here also using the 650 for locked off shots around the grounds.

Cheers,
Simon

For those interested in flatter settings like the OP, I posted some examples I'm testing over in the main X70 forum.

Everyone, thanks so much. Just figured out how to subscribe to this thread and that it's not automatic.

Chris, thanks for the footage. Saw it on Vimeo but thanks for posting the "raw" edit. Beautiful job on these shots. Did you shoot this handheld? The highlights are really well controlled and the other parts don't look too dark. By "All other settings as per default in PP4," do you mean some or all of these were applied in post in Premiere, or all in the camera and no post processing?

Paul, that was a great report, and you did an excellent job on the narration. The lights are still blown a tad but look a bit better to me than in your earlier night news footage. Did you change any picture settings? Or maybe the web compression is blurring them a bit? Yes, please, it would be great if you could post a less compressed version.

A pro news shooter using this cam for broadcast work really lends credibility to it. Right now our options for smaller pro cams are a bit limited, but I'll bet we'll see more and more of them out there.

Has anyone tried green screen yet? Wonder how the 10-bit 4:2:2 will work for that on this cam.

... um ... oops! I guess PP means Picture Profile, not Premiere Pro ... ?

Tom, I have access to the weather center green screen at my station, if you want, I could maybe shoot some of that and upload a RAW XAVC file for you to play with? I guess I would need to make someone stand in front of the camera and move around wouldn't I?

Paul

"All other settings as per default in PP4,"

Tom ~

If you are referring to the footage shot around the marina then the 'All other settings as per default in PP4' refers to yes the Picture Profiles. The only things changed in PP4 are the items listed at the head of clip. I must point out though that these settings were the ones that worked for me at that particular location at that time.

The Black Levels at +4 work fine for me at 0 dB in those really extreme 'soot and whitewash' high contrast lighting situations. The High +7 on the Black Gammas is what stops the mid blacks losing too much detail. Indoors for most situations I bring the Black Level back to '0' but leave the black Gammas at the High +7 setting.

The Knee and Slope settings of 87.5 and -2 are the ones that stop the highlights blowing out on the boats in the sun. This is why I use this location because of the extremes from white to black from high exposure levels to low. It's a good location to test any camera's dynamic range handling capability.

Handheld? No on sticks but it was a very windy day as can be seen on the long zoom shot near the end of the shot sequence. Wish I could hold that steady!

With the settings used on that shoot I just let the peaks just come up to kiss the right side of the histogram and that's it. On a Waveform monitor the majority of peaks won't go past 90 IRE. If you let them go much higher that that then yes you will start to clip the signal at around 1 volt.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Ugh, these cameras clip SOOOO LOWWW! What is going on with all that 90-108IRE range anyway, does it serve a function. I am not familiar with non broadcast cameras. I like superwhites. :-)

Paul

Two product reviews were posted by Tested, and were shot with the X70. Apparently they are testing this cam. Would be really sweet if they wind up doing a review.

In the first, the dropped ceilings seem to blow to cyan (maybe they're actually that color?) and there are green auras around the fluorescent lights:

EDIT: Guess the "fluorescent lights" are not fluorescent, as they change color, but some of the auras still look weird.

Aerial Mapping with Quadcopters and Drones - YouTube

Note the yellow reflection of the lamp on the picture frame glass in this one:

Hands-On with the Avegant Glyph Head-Mounted Display - YouTube

The other parts of the shots look really nice, though.

Does anyone think these blown highlights are distracting to the average viewer, or is it just me because I'm "looking" for this problem?

Yeah, those are florescent lights, and they most definitely turn cyan/green with the X70. The X70 suffers SEVER color shifts as the colors clip or peak. On the vectorscope, things light blue police LED's, which on my JVC HM790 and HM650 spike directly into the BLUE box, on the X70 hit to the right of the blue box, then curve around the edge to the cyan box. Similarly, RED hits and curves around to yellow. Yellow hits and curves around towards green. If you bring exposure of florescent lighting up and down, you will see the shade and intensity of the cyan change. Also, some picture profiles handle colors very differently, even after being color correction menued similarly.

Paul

Wow, so those lights ARE fluorescent and they keep fading to different colors due to shutter timing or something?

Yeah, you can see the camera irising up and down as it moves in and out on the people and objects. You can see the cyan white clipping when he opens up. That shade of cyan is very indicative of how the X70 shows florescent light.

Look at the clip below to see the same shade on an early color correction PP I was testing with FAW.......the sky and everything lit by it was an ugly shade of cyan.

Ferguson protesters block I-5 in La Jolla - 10News.com KGTV ABC10 San Diego (http://www.10news.com/news/ferguson-protesters-block-i-5-in-la-jolla)

Paul

Wow, that sky is weird Paul. Whats going on there do you think.

Cheers

Wow ... looks like the white / silver cars glow in the dark! That's the sky reflecting off the cars? Or is it a strange cyan light from the UFO that is hovering off screen?

This is really concerning. No camera of today (except a kid's toy camera maybe) should have highlights like this out of the box, much less after profile tweaking. It's like the X70 is a CX900 with an XLR handle and fatter handgrip, no still images!!! (why not???), and the same lens and sensor (okay, it has a better codec, which is better able to capture all those crushed highlights!).

I don't get Sony's marketing strategy behind this cam. Didn't anyone test a pre-production model? Didn't anyone see these highlights right away and say, "Yikes!" It's like they ordered a huge production run before testing and then said, "oh crap ... oh well." What good are the 1" sensor and broadcast codec if these problems can't be tamed in the profiles? Both pros like you and semi-pros like me will be discriminating when it comes to image quality. It's great that it's so portable, but if the image is no better than a $200 consumer camera, what gives?

And if the X70's XLR channel 2 is noisy, especially if a clean signal is needed on that channel ...

Might as well just get a cheaper consumer cam with 4K, which will downscale to 10-bit 4:4:4 HD, and then stick my little Sound Devices MixPre on it for audio.

Also thinking about the XF200. More expensive, small sensor, CF cards ... but has three rings, 20X optical zoom, and good in low light.

The GREEN channel on this camera is UNCORRECTABLE. You can tweak it a bit, but there is literally no way to use the color correction function to put the green in the green box. It will under all conditions live on the yellow side of the box, and always have a saturation level lower than the other channels.

Yellow has similar issues, because if you place yellow IN THE BOX on the scope, it will have a slight neon or nurf yellow/green hue. The settings for that cyan sky were early night test settings, that was an unexpected daytime overtime story I happened upon, had to use FAW. Adding RED in post brings all the other colors tack on like the helicopter footage, but the cyan still persisted. Red is the opposite of cyan on the scope, and the WB function of this camera will pull the whole scope picture around anywhere it wants. This is why I insist on using manual kelvin WB settings, unless you are shooting in florescent of LED strong light sources as your key, which require something other than YELLOW/BLUE variable to be adjusted.

I think the stock settings are intentionally "off" so that in extreme conditions, the colors will stay dumb instead of insane. Hope that makes sense. Sort of like intentionally aligning a NASCAR for use on a circular track.

Also, if you look closely in the helicopter video, you will see me running around with the live backpack and X70, I can be easily spotted by my bald spot. It makes me cry that my thinning hair can be seen practically from orbit. :(

Paul

"My thinning hair can be seen practically from orbit."

Ahhhh yep, I'm heading that way…… gota love getting older!

I wonder if Sony could modify the color correction menu to adjust for all 6 primary colors, instead of just limiting adjustments to a choice of 2? Another "pretty please" request to Sony for future firmware updates.

Paul

I'll just add that with the Tested video it looks like they're shooting in pretty mixed lighting which is always a challenge. I can see some glowing red lights on the drones bouncing off the walls which probably isn't helping.
Just for perspective, this is destined for web delivery, they have 50,000+ views and none of the comments are about clipped colors etc, it's all about the content.

I often find myself falling down a rabbit hole of higher and higher expectations with gear, looking for and focusing on flaws that 99% of viewers are not going to notice. Bottom line, it's a $2,300 camera and it can make a nice sharp image and thanks to some folks here we can learn to work around some of it's shortcomings, but it's never going to be an F5.
Having said all that, I do hope Sony can and will improve this camera via firmware.

Paul,

Sorry, this is straying a bit, but on the 650:

Image stabilization - is it really that bad? Much worse than the X70? Could it be defective in your unit?
LCD color - is it bad enough that you can't tell proper white balance, or do you get used to it?
Focus peaking - is this mainly a problem at night, or always?

Also, have you used either the HXR-NX5U or the NX3? I know the codec is crap, but ...

Now that the HM600 is down to $3,000, if you had to buy for yourself, would you go with the X70 or the 600, or something else?

Found more of Tested's X70 videos. Joey is doing a really great job on these, and the exposure looks great 90% of the time. Color really isn't bad at all for a one-chip cam. But its portability is just amazing. I'm torn so guess I'll just have to get it and try it out for myself.

Quadcopter Combat with "Game of Drones" - YouTube

Hands-On: DJI Inspire 1 Mount Handheld Gimbal Camera - YouTube

Paul,

Sorry, this is straying a bit, but on the 650:

Image stabilization - is it really that bad? Much worse than the X70? Could it be defective in your unit?
LCD color - is it bad enough that you can't tell proper white balance, or do you get used to it?
Focus peaking - is this mainly a problem at night, or always?

Also, have you used either the HXR-NX5U or the NX3? I know the codec is crap, but ...

Now that the HM600 is down to $3,000, if you had to buy for yourself, would you go with the X70 or the 600, or something else?

HM650 OIS really is that bad. The ones I use have a big aluminum wireless bracket poking out the back, which actually nestles up against the shoulder nicely. All would seem happy, but the OIS has some really bad jerking, and is much less effective than the X70. Best way I can describe it is similar to the gimbal lenses when they hit the end of their range of motion and hit the stop. Seems more of a function to reduce vibration than to stabilize motion, you know, keeps people from being able to measure your pulse on footage.

LCD makes it impossible to really judge white balance. I have to use the EVF for that, but the EVF is way too contrasty. You can have pretty accurate colors. or a usable way to judge exposure, not both at the same time.

I don't find the peaking very useful, it still is nearly impossible to judge focus on the very low res LCD. I like this type of peaking better than the HandyCam style peaking, which is more accurately a focus assist function.

And never used an NX before.

Paul

The X70 is only one of the 1CMOS Sony cams, which do have that sever color shift. The CX700/900 has it, the AX100, my A7S has it too - no matter, which gamma or color matrix is used. Since I do film large fireworks displays only, this is a NO GO for all Sony 1CMOS cams. I do own an EX1R 3CMOS, which is PERFECT regarding the realistic truth of fireworks colors, but all the 1CMOS cams seem to be a catastrophe - regarding color shifts at highlights.

After this thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?328132-Some-questions-about-movies-with-the-A7s-especially-for-fireworks) I've tried a Tiffen T1. Because of the greenish color/darkening of the far red blocking filter the shift is slighty less, maybe 10%, but ofter color temperature correction it is again the same.

The worst are reds, especially slightly yellowish/orange reds like Calcium based colors in fireworks. They become extremly intensive orange, like orange flares although they were red, unusable, uncorrectable.

See this video, at the very beginning. Its the AX100, some lowlight red lamps at the ceiling - just compare the reflections with the colors of the lamps (sec 0:00 - 0:08):
Battle of the 4K for 3K - YouTube

This is just a taste of what I suffer at fireworks...

I really do fear, that the Sony FS7 is the same. 1CMOS Sony sensor and I saw a recording of the sun behind clouds. Although of course this was extreme, it really showed the same problem, very intensivly.

I do not understand how Sony can allow this for generations of different cams/sensors... It prohibits to use those cameras for any lights/highlights.

Markus,

Wondering if you've had a chance to look at the X70 and try Paul Andregg's color tweaks, and if you think there's any improvement?

I don't have an AX100 (or any Sony cam other than the X70) and totally agree with you that these color/highlight problems are ridiculous, for any recent cam with a sensor 1/3" or larger to have.

Hoping a BIG firmware fix is coming to cross all of Sony's products and address this.

Yeah, the color shifting is ridiculous...........it's so bad that even after correcting in the PP settings, it can still swing wildly in hue, in either direction! I have my red dialed in on the nose, but it will shift yellow or magenta depending on saturation or exposure levels. In one past post I suggested tweaking master phase until your offending color comes into proper hue, but you don't want to leave that setting that way, adjust as and when necessary.

I shoot a lot of flames, and this camera has an annoying tendency for amber to come out with a greenish tint. Flames should not be green. :)

Paul

Thank you both.
In A7S one can slightly reduce the shifting with the settings of "color depths" for the channels CMYRGB. The more you go towards the +7 per channel, the more you reduce the effect. But it takes only maybe 50%, so in the end even at +7 you will still have a very noticable shifting of felt 50% intensity.

From a comment by Alister Chapman I've learned, the color depth in Sony cameras increases the chrominance by the cost of decreasing the luminance (when I remember correctly). I doubt, that changing the color depth (is it possible in X70?) is suitable for realisitc day light filming. For fireworks it works, somehow, a little.

If I only would know, if one can tweak the Sony FS7 with the onboard settings, that the shifting (which I really fear for the FS7 too) does not happen or is reduced by around +90%. I immediatly would sell EX1R + A7S and get the FS7 because of 4K - since I never heard even a touch of a rumour, that Sony will publish a cam with 4K 3CMOS sensor (a PXW-X300 with 4K and e-mount would be great ;))

I am a noob at color correction, but for me it was impossible to remove the shifting of the A7S in my fireworks videos fully with Premiere or Resolve. The problem is, that it happens with different reds in different intensity - and it depends, which other colors are in the same scenes. And you have often golden sparks everywhere (the most common color because of the black powder) - how to correct orange colors at the same time?

Matthew Scott's site Matthew Scott Cinematography Blog (http://mattscottvisuals.com/color/) has a good set of instruction on colour correction for several programs that you may want to look at. With most one can select a single colour and correct it. I use Edius and it it easy to select a colour range and change as described by Scott.

Ron Evans