I spent 3 full hours on the vectorscope aligning all the PP options (except gamma) using my DSC Pocket Camette chart. These are BASIC COLOR CORRECTION values for the COLOR REVISION and base menu PHASE adjustments.

METHOD: I started by selecting a COLOR MODE. Gamma for was left at ITU709 for all adjustments. First adjustment made for each PP was PHASE. Phase was rotated until the majority of the primary colors were aligned as best as possible with their vectorscope boxes. If possible, blue, as well as it’s corresponding white balance line to yellow, were prioritized. Once basic phase was adjusted, the color correction menu was entered. The ONE PUSH SET function was used to target RED for color correction 1. Once the correct values for RED were set by this function, the next step was to move down to the color 1 revision, and adjust the phase (rotation) for the individual RED arm on the vectorscope. RED is the most important color to adjust first, as it is the primary color that makes up skin tone. After red was properly aligned, the next most offending and inaccurate color on the vectorscope was selected for adjustment. In most cases, this was the GREEN value, with the exception of Cinematone 2, which required aligning of the YELLOW vector, and STILL which required BLUE adjustment. The same process as was used on RED was used on GREEN, and YELLOW in the case of Cinematone 2.

These are BASIC color alignments, meant to bring the stock PP’s as close to accurate colorimitry as possible. The ONE PUSH SET values were sightly different for each COLOR MODE selected, as each color mode slightly varies j how it presents it’s color pallet. As reference, the Sony manual gives base values for each color, but these do not match the values that are obtained by pointing at the actual calibrated DSC chart. The DSC chart is meant to accurately place vectors in the boxes meant for their specific color, so I consider these values more reliable. If you wish to alter these PP color adjustments, it would be advisable to only modify the revision settings for phase. Be advised that adjusting saturation can and will alter phase. For instance, if you increase or reduce saturation for the green revision, it will rotate the vector (color) of green towards yellow or cyan, and without a live vectorscope picture, you will not be able to see how far off the mark your final colorimitry will be. There are two adjustments for saturation, the above reference is for the revision menu, the one in the primary correction menu will have less effect on the phase if adjusted.

Because the color correction menu only allows 2 colors to be altered, this means that there will be some compromises in colorimitry. BLUE will in most of these settings should be on the mark, without undue magenta/purple being introduced into your true blue pallet. YELLOWS in many instances will be slightly into the orange spectrum on the scope, but this is not something you should notice. MAGENTAs will in many instances be pulled towards red or blue, but again, this is not something you should notice. In a few instances, CYAN will be slightly towards green, and this will be noticeable in many instances such as florescent lighting, and very light blue dawn/dusk skies, as a green hue. Of all these settings, Cinematone 1 has the best ability to resist this tendency to green cast on cyan.

VALIDATION: Once you enter these color corrections into your X70, you can toggle them on and off in the color correction menu. This will allow you to point the camera at something colorful, and toggle the custom setting off and on so you can see if you agree with them. Due to the limitations in adjustability, certain shades of yellow may have a very slight Nerf/Highlighter/Neon yellow/green hue. This issue, as well as orange or slightly umbra reds can be adjusted for as necessary by the basic PHASE menu selection. I would love to get feedback from various shooting scenarios of how these settings work, and how you altered them to correct for colors or lighting situations you encounter. I would also appreciate any feedback and input on COLOR DEPTH adjustments, which I did not go into, as those would require extensive access to colorful daytime scenes, which I do not have the time to seek out on my graveyard shift. If you are able to nail down a COLOR DEPTH value that works for a certain color with these listed color correction adjustments in any and all scenes you try them on, I will add them to a master calibration list for future posting.

I apologize for the length of this post, I wanted to run through as much as possible in the hope that some of you would be able to go through the menu as you read this, and it would not seem as discombobulated as trying to ingest it off-hand. I don’t think it is possible to modify these basic color corrections any further, as I spent hours throttling each value up and down in an attempt to find any further improvement possible.

Paul

Cinematone 1
color phase: +3
memory 1 color: 9, 4, 0
memory 1 revision: +8, 0
memory 2 color: 18, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -15, 0

Cinematone 2
color phase: 0
memory 1 color: 10, 5, 0
memory 1 revision: +5, 0
memory 2 color: 14, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -5, 0

Standard
color phase: -1
memory 1 color: 10, 5, 0
memory 1 revision: +8, 0
memory 2 color: 19, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -6, 0

ITU709
color phase: -2
memory 1 color: 10, 4, 0
memory 1 revision: +8, 0
memory 2 color: 19, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -14, +5

Pro
color phase: -1
memory 1 color: 10, 4, 0
memory 1 revision: +10, 0
memory 2 color: 19, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -2, 0

Still
color phase: +2
memory 1 color: 9, 5, 0
memory 1 revision: +12, 0
memory 2 color: 30, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -9, 0

Paul I guess you are aware that these Color Correction setting changes will only hold when using a manual white balance and then leaving it at that balance. The process being to do your white balance and then use the CC settings to fine tune your vectors as you suggest to match the colors to your subject matter under the specific lighting conditions that the white balance was taken under. A practice that has been used for years under fixed studio lighting situations where nothing alters in lighting or CCU white balance.

Under varied shooting and lighting conditions as soon as you do another manual white balance those CC settings will not reflect the settings you stored as the 'Phase Range' and 'Phase' of the adjusted CC memories will change.

The problem here is many users of this little camera will use 'Auto White Balance.' A few posters on the forum say they run auto white even when shooting concerts etc. As soon as you run auto white balance the CC settings will constantly alter as the camera tries to constantly track white.

For those who want to understand the relationship between the white balance and CC interaction the manual gives a pretty accurate description on pages 57 & 58 of the camera's Operating Guide. One extract of which is shown below.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

The "color correction" settings should not be confused with white balance. Color correction affects colorimity, otherwise known as calibration. White balance merely shifts the entire color palate as set in any given direction until white/black/grey is centered on a vectorscope. Hue, or "rotation" of the color wheel (each color moves towards the next color in the rainbow), is not adjusted by white balancing. 3200k studio incandescent lighting is the standard by which camera calibrations are done, and they are good for 5600k daylight as well. This is why LED lights have a CRI index. You would NEVER want to calibrate a camera to a poor CRI LED or even florescent lighting, as they have spectrum color spikes that affect particular colors, and not the others. If you calibrate using florescent, and "corrected" the color for GREEN which is spiked, anything not shot under florescent lighting would have a tremendous green issue, which would throw off all you other colors.

Just to be clear here, WHITE BALNCE and COLORIMITY (CALIBRATION) are totally separate things. You can rest assured your push to white with any of the above settings will produce more accurate colors than the stock settings. Also, there is an option for OFF in the PP screen. When this is set, you are basically shooting on a stock CX900/AX100. :-)

Paul

PS: For anyone wanting to argue semantics, what I refer to things as is how the camera calls it, and how people setting up professional camera call stuff. :-P

Paul - you've become one hell'ava resource on the X70 cam! In fact, all your posts, along with comments by others, would be a good reason for someone to consider getting one. Tweaking the settings will make the difference between getting OK color vs Good color.

Speaking of CRI, a few days ago there was a post by Craig Seeman titled "Light weight portable "500" LED Panel" http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/526174-light-weight-portable-500-led-panel.html#post1871866 and CRI kept cropping up as an important factor. I thought I'd dig into how it is measured and found an informative article in wikipedia at Color rendering index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index). Bottom line: This doesn't seem to be as hard a number as one would think because it depends on ...... a lot of things. Not the least of which is what/which test is being used. Manufacturers don't indicate how they measure it, at least none that I've seen.

There almost seems to be "committee wars" over which things that should be considered to determine the number.

" ~ The CRI has been criticized for not always correlating well with subjective color rendering quality in practice, particularly for light sources with spiky emission spectra such as fluorescent lamps or white LEDs." Since tungsten light sources for general use have all but gone by the wayside, the more difficult to deal with light sources are becoming more prevalent, such as LEDs. We've got one building that we'll most likely be retrofitting the fluorsent bulb fixtures out with the new LED fixtures. Many big-box stores such as Macy's, for example, have already made the change.

For the future, it would be nice to somehow program a histogram for light balance that can deal with LED light spikes. Maybe some kind of feedback between the vector-scope in the editing application that can be saved in the camera. Wouldn't that be neat, especially for correction with one's own lighting equipment.

For now, though, I'll be taking the manufacturers CRI figures for their lights with a little grain of salt. After reading the article, it will depend a lot on how I think their light looks.

Trying to correct for color spikes in post is a lot of work and what has helped me is to use some "good light" to try and cover up the "bad light", f.e., sunlight over LED, or good LED over bad LED. This isn't Hollywood and I don't have unlimited time to seek perfection.

The good news is that Oren Arieli's post about his Aputure Amaran 672c LED light (post #6) shows that the LED technology has improved and the price/performance bar has been raised.

That is a good read John. The primary thing to keep in mind with 3200k calibrations, is that they work with DAYLIGHT. You could never calibrate a camera using 3200k florescent lighting (do they come in 3200k?) then simply shift the WB kelvin to 5600k and expect realistic daylight colors.

In the night news I shoot, with the LED on the little X70, I am dealing with as many varied light sources as you can imagine. You've got your 3000k auto headlights and police spotlights, then you have white LED scene lighting such as fire truck floods, and newer police take-downs and spotlights. Street lights range from blue all the way to old school astronomy friendly sodium vapor 2300K, and some florescent. Mix this with the new alwaysonecolor active red and blue police LED lightbars, and it is a lighting mess! Most studios or professional shooters who have light kits with specific CRI shifts sometimes will have a scene file calibrated for their specific light kits. the other workaround often employed, and seen on clap-sticks, is a color bars chart. Not the most practical in news, run and gun, or when you don't have the time to have an assistant walk out into the shot at a distance to hold up a chart or white card for each shot.

A suggestion to fellow shooters. I actually run my PP's in PAIRS. I keep one PP1 calibrated with incandescent WB's 0'd, and then PP2 would be the same calibration, but with the WB settings LL or RB to compensate for my LED magenta shift. I have the same "sets" for multiple different calibrations. If I shoot on my LED PP, then anything past the lights flood will have a GREEN SHIFT. This is problematic as it turns the black sky and background blacks GREEN. Honestly, unless I shooting a close in SOT, I would rather correct close in highlights with a bit of green than correct the entire scene and shadows by shooting LED calibrated.

Paul

That's what I love about democracy everyone can have their say. I have to disagree with what you say Paul that the white balance has no effect on the stored CC settings because in my opinion it does and it's measurable and the manual even states it as a fact.

Paul my comments are based on many years of experience in the broadcast industry from my work with many different types and brands of cameras in multi-cam studio shoots and multi-cam OBs. For twenty-five years I was a registered engineer responsible for the installation and TD'ing of hundreds of TV outside broadcasts, like fifty a year. Be it a night time national football game or a live daytime OB to Europe the camera alignments had to be spot on to meet EBU or SMPTE broadcast specs depending on the shoots. Part of the role as a technical director is to integrate all camera chains into the OB system then ensure the color alignment of all cameras met those broadcast specs for colorimetry and that all cameras matched. Then finally to oversea each broadcast went through with the minimum of technical and transmission problems. So I guess I know my way around test and measurement equipment by now. Well I would like to think I do :) In fact we still maintain a full six camera HD-SDI fly away OB kit when clients require it.

The general basis for color alignment of cameras today is based on what is referred to as the Daylight D series one of which is Illuminant D65 with a color temperature of 6504K. To fully understand this a bit better without this becoming a laboured technical post anyone interested can look at this PDF with particular reference to pages 57 thru 61 which gives one a basic understanding on the subject matter of 'colorimetry.'

http://web.itu.edu.tr/~pazarci/rtv/TEK_Digital%20Video%20Measurements_25W_14700_3.pdf

Sad to say as great as the little X70 is, I love mine, is that the camera is way short of having the degree of matrix adjustment that a full broadcast spec camera has. It lacks the full broadcast Matrix for colorimetry adjustments and has no broadcast standard Preset Matrix, many cameras have a number of Preset Matrix selections available for storage of settings. Add to that no User Matrix or Multi Matrix with their sophisticated sixteen axis modes of color adjustments. It will forever be a struggle to get an X70 to be 100% color accurate. In fact it isn't possible with the range of adjustment the camera has.

Point in case look at the attached pic which I just quickly created on the office floor with the X70 on the left and a three CCD XDCam on the right. I'm not saying theses cameras are matched by any means but check the chart and check the file folder color. Basically most of the colors on the chart are pretty closely replicated by both cameras but check the third chip down on the left in each case. This shade is very accurately recreated in the XDCam image on the right and the file folder on the XDCam image is almost identical to what the human eye sees on a broadcast reference CRT. The X70 does not have the degree of adjustment to correct for this 'purple hue' without affecting other hues. It can only represent this shade of purple as a shade of blue and this isn't the only shade in the purple spectrum it cannot reproduce correctly. I wish it could but we can't get there with the limited controls the camera has. Not that I am complaining because for its price the camera is quite amazing.

But sure as anything I couldn't use a camera like this on a job where these purple hues were required to be reproduced as accurately as possible. Be it someone's corporate colors, or probably worse still imagine what a bride would say if her bridesmaids were dressed in this colour purple and they all appeared to be dressed in blue. We have also seen this problem with the X70s and on a number of other cameras for that matter on stage shows with purple LED lighting. On many shoots the disadvantages of 100% color reproduction can be overlooked in the case of the X70 because of its advantages in size, mobility and speed of deployment.

Happy shooting!

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Wow! That color chart picture left an impression!

The University of Washington (in Seattle) has the school colors of purple and gold so there are, naturally, a lot of purple colors around here. Everything from clothing, to cars (including my son-in-law's car), signage, and even to store fronts. To have the color rendition of something come out looking blue (University of Southern California) might not be so good. And yes, I know there are a lot of brides maids wearing purple, too.

Point in case look at the attached pic which I just quickly created on the office floor with the X70 on the left and a three CCD XDCam on the right. I'm not saying theses cameras are matched by any means but check the chart and check the file folder color. Basically most of the colors on the chart are pretty closely replicated by both cameras but check the third chip down on the left in each case. This shade is very accurately recreated in the XDCam image on the right and the file folder on the XDCam image is almost identical to what the human eye sees on a broadcast reference CRT. The X70 does not have the degree of adjustment to correct for this 'purple hue' without affecting other hues. It can only represent this shade of purple as a shade of blue and this isn't the only shade in the purple spectrum it cannot reproduce correctly. I wish it could but we can't get there with the limited controls the camera has. Not that I am complaining because for its price the camera is quite amazing.

But sure as anything I couldn't use a camera like this on a job where these purple hues were required to be reproduced as accurately as possible.

What really amazes me is how well the color charts look, left and right, and yet how much different the folder looks. Unbelievable!

Fortunately, (for the videographer) the Seattle Seahawks main color is blue!

Because I'm not exactly a fan of the color purple, I'm still interested in the X70 so this is good to know. At this rate though, getting close to Vegas, maybe Sony will have a model update. Also keeping an eye on the JVC HM170/200 coming out in February that is FCPX friendly.

As an aside, doing nighttime news coverage has got to be about the worst video situation there is with the contrast between light and dark. On top of that, by the time one arrives on scene with all the action there isn't the time to sit and fiddle with all the camera settings 'cause it's time to roll or miss the action. Fortunately for the X70, there aren't too many flashing purple lights!

Chris, you input is appreciated and respected as a reliable and for the most part superior source. I totally agree, and am saddened by the lack of colorimetry adjustments in the X70. It's nice to be able to better it, but it can never be perfected. As for purple, my stations logo and news vehicles include a purple stripe, which I always point the camera at after aligning to see how blue it turns out. The X70, unless you wish to have all your true blues pull towards magenta, will almost always render the DSC blue (slightly purple in real life) true blue.

I have posted previous color correction settings, which were done similar to how you would typically expect to align a broadcast camera on the vectorscope with a chart. These provided certain benefits, but I could never realize a quality I was happy with, and this turned out to be due to how Sony designed the alignment corrections on this camera. This latest set was done with the end user, non chart/scope owning shooter in mind. Previously, I had simply chosen a color correction number based on where and how it moved a branch on the vectorscope, I used Sony's method and function built into the camera to point and push select a panel on the DSC chart. As the saturation levels for each arm on the vectorscope were randomly stretched, and you can only adjust for the two that you are correcting, I mostly left these unchanged. For those unfamiliar with how alignment settings work in most broadcast cameras, the basic idea is to point each prime color vector at it's box on the scope, then increase saturation until the tip is in the center of it's box on the scope. That may be an oversimplification, but that is the basic idea.

As for YUV and RGB, I ran into that (learning experience) when I switched to P2 on Sony Vegas. All my ingested footage was coming out ink black, and I discovered Vegas handled P2 as RGB, and I had to apply a YUV (studio levels conversion) filter to make things right. I am running into this again with Sony's Catalyst Browse, as XAVC footage transcode in the other direction, and my blacks are super grey.

Basically, I want this post to provide BASIS color correction for each color profile the camera has to offer. Think of this post as giving you the corner pieces to the jigsaw puzzle, and the replies as helping you put all the center pieces in the right places. These are much better STARTING values to attempt adjustments from than the stock values which are not balanced properly.

Paul

I do not yet have a X70 but have NX5U, NX30U, FDR-AX1, CX700, XR500. I can attest that all have this issue with purple but to different degrees. I shoot theatre multicam with at least 4 of these cameras and set all to preset indoor WB and fine tune when I edit with Edius. With the mix of lighting from LED and tungsten or spots by scene setting a WB I found to be a waste of time. It is more important that the cameras do not continually change their WB. I have no problem this way getting the purple I want with the 3 way colour corrector. The NX5U does have matrix parameters but I have never ventured in that direction !!! If the X70 does not have what is needed then spend twice as much on the PXW-X160 /180 with the fine matrix controls needed.

I had a demo unit X70 a week ago and compared with the NX30 and NX5U. Very similar to operate and nice clean picture. Not quite as sensitive as the NX30 but really close. Lens seems to ramp more than the NX30 and with the lens difference starting point is the main difference in sensitivity I think. Framing the same scene the X70 showed F2.8 24db and the NX30 F1.7 18db. So close once lens and gain difference taken into account.

Ron Evans

I've been out of touch for over a week and am just now getting back to some testing.

I did some shooting over the holidays, using some flat settings I'm experimenting with. I did a simple white balance, but per Paul's earlier instructions rather than a full custom white balance I just did a read of a white card then manually set that Color Temp. However, I did not use the color settings Paul posted earlier in this thread - I'm going to try with those next. I'm pretty pleased with the results in general. Colors are good once I did some minor "grading" but as expected, the biggest problems are blues and purples. I'm having the opposite problem from Chris's example. Purples are OK, but blues all skew a bit purpleish.

I'll post some examples in the next day or so.

I'm finding the camera is not that great in low light - but it's saved by the relatively clean gain. I'm finding that +9 and even +12 are actually useable, unlike my previous Canon XF100. However, I really miss the waveform monitor on the XF100. The histogram is just not the same and I'm struggling with exposure. I am usually erring on the underexposure side.

David, if you only adjust ONE setting by eyeball to wrangle your blues away from magenta (purple), try moving the main PHASE setting. And for white balance, I find that I can be a few hundred K off the mark in either direction and still get very acceptable results, although my lighting is all over the place. You can experiment with manually adjusting the kelvin (and phase/color corrections) by eyeball, but it is recommended you use the EVF for this, as the LCD panel has an ever so slight yellow/green hue to it. The EVF actually has a color correction setting and color panel chart. I played with it, but it always looked the same to me.

Paul

It's fantastic to have you guys on here testing and discussing this situation with color balance. I think I'm still going to get one of these as the features/value for money seems so good. Without the camera in hand, reading these threads and the manual it's a little difficult wrapping my head around exactly how one should approach getting the best white balance possible.

I've been a 'push to balance' guy for years, then use my eye and a couple monitors and experience to tell me if I'm close enough.....then tweak in post. Are you guys saying that if you make picture profile adjustments then push to WB the camera will then alter those pp adjustments just made? If true, it sounds really fiddly to push and then go and change pp settings. Is it as bad as it sounds?

Color Correction settings SHOULD NOT alter the way you white balance. They improve push to white as well as preset white balance settings.

Paul

Paul, here's a quote from you in another thread. Maybe I'm dense, but the following quote is either contradicting what you just posted here, or I don't fully understand either post. Could you clarify??? All I want to do is a manual white balance to a white card (is that the same thing as Push to White?) to save time in post, with the color corrections listed in this quote helping get a more accurate color matrix. I've already found that they help the problem I had last week with not enough differentiation between blues and purples. ---Thanks

Quote from Paul:
<<<I use push to white merely to attain the KELVIN of the light, I then quickly toggle into manual kelvin set, set to whatever push to white said the K was, and I am set to shoot. The PP WB adjustments should be sued to "center" your whiting after you select the correct kelvin for your lighting, but still see your whites a bit off-color. You can push to white 5 times and get the same color temperature reading, but vastly different hues and colors. When you dial the camera manually, you are getting solid and repeatable colors, like an actually broadcast camera. High end broadcast gear changes kelvin, and nothing else when you push to white.

Here are my current Cinematone 1 PP settings that I got off the scope and with a bit of "eyeball" calibration as well. You can try them out to see how you like them. NO color depth adjustments made on this. These were adjusted with the camera seeing and set to 3300k on a 3200k incandescent light source.

Color phase: +3
Memory 1: 12, 4, 0/ +13, +15
Memory 2: 13, 7, 0/ +7, 0

Try using those color revisions as a base, and simply point them at a colorful scene and ramp them up and down to see changes visually. It is sort of like an eyeglass test at a optometrist....better, or worse, better or worse. :-)>>>

Sorry, will try to clarify. I shoot with LED lighting at night. If I push to white, it introduces a green shift to counteract the magenta in the light. As the light falls off, the magenta cast is lessened, and anything lit by non LED lighting, even my blacks, will take on a noticeable green shade. As long as the scene you are shooting is lit by the same lighting source as you have pushed to white, you will be fine. If I push to white with my LED, my close in whites and SOT's will look fine. I prefer to use the manual kelvin solution, because it is easier in FCP X to use the color corrector to adjust highlights away from magenta or to green, than to try to fix the entire picture for green blacks and such in the distance.

This is due to the camera not only adjusting kelvin temperature during push to white, but it will also shift towards or away from all colors on the vectorscope, unlike all the broadcast cameras I have ever used. On a broadcast camera (Panasonic HPX2000/SPX800/Betacams etc), if you push to white using a poor CRI LED, you will still see magenta, or green in the case of florescent, unless you modify the color matrix to compensate. This feature of these cameras is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you deploy it. If I only carry an LED with me, then I CANNOT push to white at all with it without adding a lot of green to everything. At night on the street, good luck on finding another source of light to push to white off of in a pinch that won't shift colors all over
! :)

Paul

David D. wrote:

"I've already found that they help the problem I had last week with not enough differentiation between blues and purples."

Well here goes for a great dose of humble pie. I owe Paul A. a big apology. So sure was I in my conviction and knowledge of colorimetry of broadcast cameras is that it has led me to make the unforgivable error of taking certain things as being set in stone and to have taken those things as gospel when in fact they are not :( Well at least not on the x70 and who knows on what other modern cameras coming from Sony?

On further analysis of what Paul has stated on the 'Color Correction' aspects of the x70 I now see where he is coming from. With some playing around on this rather unusual Color Correction mode that Sony has included in the PPs on this camera I was in fact totally able to correct the blue / purple spread discrepancy that the camera exhibited and to end up with a pretty decent representation on a blue to purple gradation spread. More experimenting ahead!

To boot as Paul suggested it seems to hold its correction relative to any changes in the overall colorimetry phase change when a white balance is done. I am curious as to how this is happening but will leave that for further investigation as I flagellate myself with something suitable. Maybe Holly. Seems suitable for the season we are in.

Again Paul my apologies for doubting that enquiring mind of yours. Back to school on this camera for me with even more curiosity as to how its CC innards are working.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Usually the most quality people I know are the ones who can just up and say "I was wrong." Props to you! And feel free to share some more settings of how you arrive at this stuff, it's a big help to guys like me who are a long way off from being any kind of technical guru. Your outdoor sunny shots of the boats helped sell me on this camera.

No apology necessary Chris. :-)

As I mentioned in my email, I could have been wrong, as this camera has been full of surprises. You may have noticed it took me a long time to post those final CC values, as it necessitated several multiple hour long sessions on the scope trying to figure out what was affecting what and how!

And I found the push to white function works exactly as it did on my CX900, it seems to just move the entire vector image around the scope like a Ouija board! Additionally, that Ouija board movement seems to keep the front/back/depth/apple-core stationary, none of that axial movement you get when you add or subtract incadescant or daylight from a balanced image. I hope that made sense!

Paul

I envy all of you who have this nice little handycam. Mine is the FDR-AX100E, a sibling of yours but this one doesn't allow any color or pp tweaking. Granted, it is bestowed with a "Cinematone" mode which is in practice just a steeper gamma curve in both highlights and shadows. Not even a simple control like there is in my lowly soccer mom US$500 Sony HX400V stills camera that allows the in camera sharpening to be toned down or increased.

Never mind Paul, I will save your settings dear on my computer in case some day I may have the X70.

Usually the most quality people I know are the ones who can just up and say "I was wrong."

My parents drummed into me there is no other way when you are wrong. Still feeling pretty humble though. Reminds me of a colleague of mine who says with a smile "I was wrong once. It was June 22 1982."
I'm glad the marina / boats shots were of some help in making your decision Mike.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

No apology necessary Chris. :-)

Then I shall not fall on my sword :)

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Thanks to you both, Chris and Paul, as was said earlier, your experience and work on this camera is a great help to those of us who don't have the skill or knowledge to work all this out. I really hope you keep up this dialogue, but don't think about charging for it :)

Charging for it? Now there's an idea. Thank you Mike :) Used to get paid to teach it once... long time ago.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Just read that Sony announced yesterday (as a side note in the CES press release for their new 4K consumer camcorder) a firmware update coming in March for the AX100 4K XAVC-S to 100Mps from 50 or 60 or whatever it currently is. No mention at all of the 4K upgrade for the X70, but surely this means it will be 100mps at the very least.

I may have botched one of the color correction settings for ITU709. I am updating it here as the board will not allow me to edit the original posting. The saturation level may exhibit neon green hue in certain conditions, although it may make foliage look really pretty in the day. :-)

ITU709 (ORIGINAL POST)
color phase: -2
memory 1 color: 10, 4, 0
memory 1 revision: +8, 0
memory 2 color: 19, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -14, +5 <---

ITU709 (RECOMMENDED CORRECTION)
color phase: -2
memory 1 color: 10, 4, 0
memory 1 revision: +8, 0
memory 2 color: 19, 7, 0
memory 2 revision: -14, 0 <---

Thanks Paul, I actually shot with that original profile is lower light condition at the telephoto end of the Clearview zoom and it did look a little green, which I had to correct in post, so thanks for this!

Because the GREEN vector cannot be brought all the way to it's box (it wants to stop part way to the yellow box at max phase adjustment), it ended up putting too much green into the YELLOW at that saturation level. As the YELLOW is on the WB vector, it becomes more apparent as your white balance is off towards the lower kelvin area.

Paul

I own both cameras. All is not lost with the Ax100.

Press the manual button but hold it until a short menu appears. You will see two settings in the bottom. These settings allows the use of adding blues, reds, greens etc via scrolling the wheel. You can also adjust color temp etc. Granted that it does not allow changing gamma and black levels but does a better job than using the usual color balance button methods. Really tweaks the colorimetrics precisely and even on the fly for mixed colors such as electric lighting and different bulb colors or mixed inside vs. outside color temperatures that never balnce right in manual or auto button settings.


I envy all of you who have this nice little handycam. Mine is the FDR-AX100E, a sibling of yours but this one doesn't allow any color or pp tweaking. Granted, it is bestowed with a "Cinematone" mode which is in practice just a steeper gamma curve in both highlights and shadows. Not even a simple control like there is in my lowly soccer mom US$500 Sony HX400V stills camera that allows the in camera sharpening to be toned down or increased.

Never mind Paul, I will save your settings dear on my computer in case some day I may have the X70.

I previously owned a CX900, and posted a color correction list for it using these settings in the XAVC forum. My main intent was to provide very basic WHITE BALANCE correction for INDOOR and OUTDOOR presets using tungsten 3200k and daylight lighting.

These AX100/CX900 adjustments can be thought of as "manual FAW" adjustments, as that is the function they perform, the colorimitry doesn't change, but the whole vector image will move across the scope just as it does when you push to white.

Paul

First, Thanks Paul for all your input! Being new to this camcorder you have been a great help. Could you list what type of scenario’s you use the PP's that you listed? Thanks again, Ray

I WAS using the Cinematone1 PP initially because it has slightly better colors, but have since switched to the ITU709 PP because the Cinematone1 was a bit too flat, and the blacks were a bit too grey for my taste. I simply did a color correction for EACH color mode to provide settings for other people who wish to play with them.

Paul

Thanks for the help.... You're truly a great asset to this forum. Ray

Probably a dumb question but to activate these corrections are you supposed to select color 1 or 1&2? There's color revision and extract? I don't have the camera in front of me but I'm a little confused as to how to properly activate in the menus. Off is pretty self explanatory, lol.

Color 1 and color 2 selections choose one or both or none of the color correction memory changes you have altered. If you start from scratch, and say you think your reds are too orange or magenta, you could in concept point the camera at the offending color, use the color correction "select" function in the correction menu, then adjust the settings for the specific "number" that the camera reads that color as. Extract works sort of like a blue or red or green only function of a monitor, except it corresponds with the color number you select. In the manual, Son y gives a list of what colors correspond to which numbers, but their numbers are slightly off of what a DSC chart says those color values should be. I have a list of the DSC values posted on here somewhere.

Paul

Thanks Paul! I dailed in your ITU709 settings under 'Color Revision' and selected 'Memory 1&2'.

Did an interview with those settings today and I didn't really get a chance to test what before and after looked like, but the guy was wearing a green jacket and a yellow shirt and honestly looking at it on my calibrated monitor afterwards, the skin looks perfect and so do the clothes.

Many thanks, I had noticed some weird greens and yellows before, so I assume your tweaks must make a decent improvement.

Glad they helped! Under incandescent 3200k'ish lighting, the X70/CX900/AX100 cameras have this horrid YELLOW cast to skintone, which is why I first give the red color a good correction. In daylight, this is much less of an issue, but as the key lighting becomes more yellowish, the problem begins to creep into the picture. :)

If you want to see BEFORE and AFTER easily, simply COPY the PP setting to like the next PP number above or below the one you are using, and turn OFF the color correction but leave the other settings alone. this way, you can press the PP button, then go up and down and see which you prefer. You can do the same by turning color correction off and on, but utilizing the PP selection is quicker and easier if you want to see the changes quickly and frequently.

Paul

Did an interview with those settings today and I didn't really get a chance to test what before and after looked like, but the guy was wearing a green jacket and a yellow shirt and honestly looking at it on my calibrated monitor afterwards, the skin looks perfect and so do the clothes.


You may wish to delve into and mess around with, the COLOR DEPTH settings. I do not have a calibrated monitor to play with these, but they can make a drastic visual difference.

Paul

Maybe it helped that I had nicely diffused daylight.
Great idea on copying the profiles to the next PP and flicking quickly between them. Trying to do it by backing out of menus doesn't really work.

I'll have to read up on the color depth settings and see what's up. I like that each profile also has multiple white balance shift adjustments.

No need to read, just crank them up and down and you will see them get paler or deeper in color, no color shift, just "light/darkness" intensity. It is not a saturation level, and it cannot be seen on a vectorscope, it must be done by eye, and preferably with a calibrated monitor.

Paul

Interesting, will have to check that out.

Just got the cam today and ... WOW! ... these PP settings are complicated just to get decent color out of this thing.

I am overwhelmed. Why do I feel like configuring the Space Shuttle for reentry was probably simpler? Is it also a legitimate concern that a firmware fix for these color issues is unlikely to be forthcoming?

Is there any way to getting a similar PP setting on the AX-1000?

Is there any way to getting a similar PP setting on the AX-1000?


I was wondering this same thing.

I use the scroll wheel on my AX-100 to adjust the colors. Hold and press the button. You will observe two items that allow adjusting colors. The others are exposure etc.

I spent about 20 minutes at Best Buy today looking into this, and I didn't see anything in the menus that indicated that it allows the same level of fine control over picture looks like the X70...

The AX100 should operate inn this respect like my old CX900. It has a white balance adjustment mode, where each WB selection can be altered. You can shove the colors on the Magenta/Green skew, as well as like Cyan/Red. This is more useful for adapting to lighting hue, like green florescent lights or magenta cast you get with some LED's, and should not be confused with a color correction menu. The X70 has the same feature buries WITHIN each of it's custom PP's. So basically, the entirety of the CX900/AX100 color correction capability is but a tiny deep menu selection in an X70. :)

Paul

Yeah, I found that in the white balance menu today when I was playing around with it.

Looks like if the x70 gets a 4K upgrade, I'll probably go that route instead.

Sony Pro Europe tweeted a promo film about the PXW-X70 yesterday - perhaps as a beginning to new marketing campaign for this camera. I immediately replied to the tweet asking when the details of the 4K upgrade will be announced and suggesting that at BVE (Broadcast Video Expo) in London next week might be a good time ;-)

Just got a standard reply - that they'll "let me know when it's ready".

I certainly do hope Sony announce it at BVE - they normally have a huge stand there, and for sure I'll be on the stand to have a really good look at the FS7 and X70 in particular.

I am playing around with the Color Depth adjustments. Currently I am experimenting with all Color Depth settings cranked to their maximum +7 values, with saturation turned down to -10. The intense colors "pop", but by turning down the saturation level, things like green grass doesn't glow in the dark. Will update further on these, but so far, liking the "effect". Looks similar to the "Cinema Vivid" color matrix settings in my JVC ProHD cameras.

Paul