As posted in the 'Inside a Bogen 501' thread , I'm thinking of getting a better tripod head than the older Manfrotto I currently have .

Although , in days gone by I used to shoot with a Sony DXC-M3A/VO6800 , then with a JVC GY-DV500 , both of which I sat on my Manfrotto 350 legs and 116Mk II head , I now use a Sony HVR V1e , mainly for family stuff , hobby use and the odd paying job ( usually weddings ) which helps to pay for new toys .

Earlier in the year , I attended a trade show in Glasgow Science Centre and had a play with a few tripod systems , including the newer offerings from Manfrotto , noting that they felt smoother and better than in days of old , and an improvement over what I have just now . I use Sachtler heads at work , so I know how much better a 'proper' head can be , but I can't justify spending a huge amount and was really looking at spending around £200 tops for a newer head ( don't mind secondhand ) . The other thing is that the 350/116 is a fairly big and heavy thing to tote around , besides being overkill for my current camera .

I settled on the V1e as I still quite like tape based workflow , where I can use a new tape every time and keep it on the shelf afterwards ( we use XDCAM at work which uses either the big optical discs or SxS cards , which are too expensive to use new ones every time ) . I may possibly get another HDV camera as prices continue to drop , and may look for a Z7 at some point , but the V1e is a nice size , not being too big to take on family outings and holidays , whilst still being reasonably decent to do the odd jobs with . I also have a couple of video capable still cameras which can provide emergency backup at a wedding , but I still prefer to use a camcorder to shoot video .

At most the V1e will be fitted with an onboard mic ( I still have the standard supplied one , but am planning to get the ECM-MS2 for stereo capability ) , a high capacity battery , then , according to what I am doing any of the following : Sennheisser EW100 radiomic receiver , a Paglight DV , the wide conversion lens which also came with the camera - all in all still not hugely heavy , even if the COG will shift according to what is mounted .

So , in summary , looking for something smaller and lighter than the 116 , which should offer better performance and be more suited to the camera as outlined above and not looking to spend a huge amount on something that is primarily for home use .

I had initially looked at the Manfrotto 504HD , but after reading Chris's review on here , it is perhaps not going to be brilliant and maybe I'd be as well getting the cheaper 502 which is perhaps not much different . I know either the Sachtler FSB4 or the Vinten Vision Blue would both be better , but don't feel I can justify the £500+ they cost .

I can buy a new Manfrotto 502 for a little over £100 , but looking around I saw an older Manfrotto 505 on offer at £180 ( I know this would originally been a more expensive head and looks like a clone of / basis of the Vinten Pro 130 head ; whether there are internal differences between the Manfrotto / Vinten variants I don't know ) .

I guess I'm put off the 502 by the review on the 504 which showed how the QR plate can 'fall down a hole' under certain circumstances and noting they seem to share that same basic design , but the 505 looks to be a big brother of the 501/503 which I have used before and also resembles the Vinten Pro Touch 5 head we have at work .

I'm wondering how they compare : the 502 being a newer design with newer technology , versus the 505 being an older , and probably more upmarket head ? Both should fit without difficulty onto the 100mm half-ball on my 350 legs .

At the moment I'm leaning towards the used 505 as being the safer choice , especially since the dealer , from whom I've bought numerous things before , has a good returns policy and I know I could send it back if not happy .

If anyone has used either or both of these heads , I would value their opinions .

I wouldn't recommend the 502. Kinda small and not so good (or nonexistent) drag and lock adjustments. It works, but I don't really like it. Seems like a $100 head not a $200 one. Could be useful on a slider or for a backup, which is why I have it, but I wouldn't want to use it every day.

On the other hand, I own 2 of the 504HD heads on 535CF sticks. I really don't mind them. I'm sure there are better heads out there, but they've always worked pretty darn well for me. Only problems I have are in cold weather with the internal "fluid" starting to get stiff. I use them hard and they're still going strong after 4 years.

Not saying you can't find something better (probably used) for cheaper, but if the right deal came along, I wouldn't put it out of the question, especially with those killer 535 tripods.

I would be very interested in hearing about the "505" though, it does look a little different from the rest and more advanced from the pictures.

Thanks Nate ,

I had thought the 502 might be OK for a smaller camera , but I'll take your comments on board .

I've so far read two reviews on the 504 , and neither was particularly complimentary , but you are the first person I've heard from who has actually used one for a length of time , so if you reckon it isn't so bad I will keep it in mind . Have you had any problems with the QR plate not locating properly , or the head warping against a lot of drag , as mentioned in Chris's review ?

Admittedly both reviews were when the 504 was newly out , and issues may have been addressed .

I'd still like to hear from anyone who has used a 505 .

After spending a bit of time trawling the archives on this forum , I found a few accounts of the 505 , which seemed quite respectable .

I've also since come across a dealer selling two 510 heads , one is 'new old stock' with full warranty for £350 and another is used for £200 , but looks to be minus the QR plate and panning bars ( not a problem as they look similar to the ones on my 116 , besides which I would be using my 523 remote panning bar anyway , leaving me to just get the readily available QR plate for it ) . I don't think I'd fork out £350 for the new one as that is then getting towards the price of a new Sachtler FSB4 , but the used one is within price range .

Reading up on it , the 510 seems to be a 'proper' fluid head with three separate fluid cartridges and choice of two counterbalance springs , adjustable over a range of weights . Some reports in the archives and elsewhere seem to show this to have been a reasonable head . Again , though , it looks to be a big , heavy head with 100mm ball , which will suit my tripod , but perhaps not much smaller or lighter than the 116 head which was what I was trying to get away from .

The tripod with the 116 head on it is a big , heavy thing to lug around ; although with the older 136 head , which I still also have , fitted ( this was a head I bought and used with my VX1000 for a while ) , it is apparent that a lot of that weight is in the head , and the tripod would be quite manageable with a lighter head .

I had hoped to find a newer , smaller , lighter head that performed better than my old ones and was more suited to the smaller cameras I use these days .

Well , largely because of Nate's reassurance above , I've ordered a 504 which should come early in the new year , and will see how I get on with it .

I've also ordered a Sony ECM-MS2 microphone along with the head , so those are my Christmas presents to myself :)

There really aren't a lot of options in the $300-600 range besides the 504 and a number of off-branded heads from who knows where. I think the 504 will be a good choice for your uses.

Regarding the plate falling into the gap: it can happen with a bare plate, but if there is a camera attached to the plate, the bottom of the camera serves as a guide and doesn't allow the plate to drop. I tried to put it out of whack the other night but wasn't able to with a C100. Another thing to make sure of is that the handle is properly tightened before use, as to avoid excessive flex.

One more thing, the 504 is a 75mm bowl head, so you might need a little 100mm to 75mm adaptor ring.

Thanks Nate .

I had wondered about the bowl adapter .

I noted that some dealers offered the 504 with a flat base , but they were all more expensive . I'm hoping I can simply remove the 75mm ball from the bottom of the head and fit the 100mm ball I have on my tripod . I presume it is simply a matter of loosening the three screws in the underside of the ball and removing it .

Otherwise I will pop up to my local Calumet , who I know stock the adapter ( the cost is less than the difference between what I paid and what the flat base 504 would have cost ) .

Thanks Nate .

I had wondered about the bowl adapter .

I noted that some dealers offered the 504 with a flat base , but they were all more expensive . I'm hoping I can simply remove the 75mm ball from the bottom of the head and fit the 100mm ball I have on my tripod . I presume it is simply a matter of loosening the three screws in the underside of the ball and removing it .

Otherwise I will pop up to my local Calumet , who I know stock the adapter ( the cost is less than the difference between what I paid and what the flat base 504 would have cost ) .

I do not believe this to be the case. The 502 is offered with a flat base but the 75mm ball on the 504 is built-in, and according to the parts diagram, an integral part of the panning mechanism is housed inside. I think you're definitely going to need the adaptor ring.

If that's the case , it is no big deal as I saw the adaptor rings in stock when I was last in Calumet a week before Christmas . The adaptor is only £25 , so not the end of the world if I need it . It would also have the advantage of letting me leave the 100mm ball on my 116 head , making them easily swappable if using a heavier camera again .

I would have updated this thread sooner , but for a less than ideal buying experience I have had with a well known UK dealer .

I ordered the Manfrotto 504 head and the ECM-MS2 microphone on Christmas Eve , fully appreciating that while the website stated 'usually despatched within 2-3 days' that it would most likely be after the holidays . Consequently , I enjoyed my Christmas break and was quite happy when I received an email on January 6th to say my order was on its way .

Unfortunately , a week went by with nothing arriving , so I phoned to see what was happening , and was told , despite the email , that they were still awaiting the microphone from their suppliers and it shouldn't be long .

I knew the microphones were in generally short supply , so I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and left it until the end of January .

Just into February , my January bank statement arrived , and I could see that they had taken full payment on the 6th of January ( when they sent the email ) ; I had waited the extra couple of days into February before pressing further as I wanted to be sure of that fact .

I phoned them back up Monday past , to be put on hold for a couple of minutes , then again told the same story that the mic had not arrived . When I pointed out they had told me the same a full month previously , I received profuse apologies and a promise to chase it immediately ; at the same time , I asked if the head was in stock and , being told that it was , I asked for them to at least send that out pending arrival of the mic .

That phone call was at 16:45 on Monday ; I was told I could expect the head 'within the next couple of days' ; it is now Friday and , so far , nothing has arrived !

I will so far refrain from naming and shaming this dealer , but if nothing has arrived by Saturday post , they will be getting an email giving them a deadline for delivery by 28th February ( 2 weeks ) or I will ask my card provider to make a chargeback . I had ordered from this dealer as they were £40 cheaper for the head than everyone else , but within £2 of others for the mic . Perhaps it's easy to advertise cheap prices if you have no stock , but their website still quotes 2-3 days delivery on BOTH items !

To say I am less than impressed would be an understatement .

In contrast , after being assured Monday afternoon of the head coming this week , I went onto CVP's website Tuesday morning and ordered the 100mm to 75mm bowl adaptor ( my local Calumet had sold the one they had and were quoting 2 weeks to order ) and it arrived the following day . CVP are also showing 3 ECM-MS2's in stock .

It came as no great surprise that the postman brought nothing today ( they did state in earlier correspondence that they use Royal Mail ) .

Therefore the following email sent ( no names published on open forum ) . I am not one normally given to complaining , so I hope I have struck the right balance between expressing my dissatisfaction and remaining polite .





Dear sir ,

On the 24th December last year I placed the above order for a Manfrotto 504 tripod head and a Sony ECM MS2 microphone .

While I fully appreciate than an order placed on Christmas Eve is unlikely to be processed over the holidays , I was happy to receive the attached communication ( dated 5th January ) that my order was due to ship on the 6th . Although I would have anticipated delivery later that week , I waited until Monday 12th before telephoning to enquire what was happening , my concern being that the order had gone astray in transit .

At that point , I was told that the order had not shipped after all , due to non availability of the microphone , but that you were expecting delivery soon . As I knew these microphones to be generally in short supply , and appreciating that you would only have ordered it after the holidays , I was not too concerned and stated that I didn’t mind waiting .

Having heard nothing further by the end of January , I started to become concerned . I waited until my January bank statement arrived on Monday 9th of February , at which point I was able to verify that you had taken payment in full on 6th January , before telephoning again .

On this occasion I pointed out that you had had my money for over a month with nothing having been delivered and asked what was happening ; I was put on hold for a couple of minutes , then told ( again ) that the hold up was because you were still awaiting the microphone . Having worked in retail some years ago , I do appreciate that these things can happen , but when I asked if you had the head in stock and could that at least be sent out , I was told I could expect it ‘within the next couple of days’ .

Alas , that was on Monday 9th ; this is now Saturday 14th and nothing has arrived ! To say that I am disappointed would be an understatement .

It has now been almost six weeks since my payment cleared and apart from one email to say my order was shipping , which turned out not to be the case , I have had nothing delivered and no updates as to what is happening .

I have tried to be patient over this matter and whilst I realise this is a relatively small order for my own personal home use and the first time I have ordered anything from yourselves , I would not have expected to be left for this length of time without any communication , beyond those initiated from my end . I might be completely wrong in imagining that I have been all but forgotten about , and perhaps you have been working tirelessly to obtain this microphone , but you must appreciate how it looks from my end .

In contrast , and in anticipation of the tripod head arriving last week , I ordered a Manfrotto 100mm to 75mm bowl adaptor for my tripod from CVP on Tuesday morning , and had it in my hand by lunchtime the following day : this is one of the suppliers I use at work where we have a substantial budget for broadcast equipment and , despite it being a small personal order , is the sort of service I would have hoped and expected to receive from yourselves . While on CVP’s website , I noted that they have both the head and microphone in stock .

If I am honest , I have to say that I ordered from yourselves rather than CVP ( one of my usual suppliers ) because your prices were lower , but had I known that I was going to have to wait this length of time I would have gladly paid the extra £40 or so .

In order to try to be fair to yourselves , I must now give you a deadline for delivery , after which , if the goods have not been delivered , I will regrettably feel obliged to cancel .

Since I write this on the 14th of February , I will allow a further 14 days for delivery , but if nothing has arrived by that date I will cancel the order and will expect a full refund of the £459.98 which was debited from my bank account on the 6th of January .

I would appreciate either a firm delivery date for both items or an early refund .

It gives me no pleasure to do this , but you must appreciate that I cannot and am not prepared to wait indefinitely for these goods . Had I at least received the tripod head as an interim delivery , or some regular updates then I might have been inclined to wait longer .

Yours faithfully ,

Derek Heeps .

The above email , sent Saturday early afternoon ( they are open on Saturday ) has gone unanswered ; it is now the early hours of Wednesday morning , so they have had two full days to respond .

I spent some time looking on the web for feedback about this company ; the only place with any amount of customer feedback was Amazon , where most of the feedback was positive , but there were a small number of negative reports similar to mine .

My worst case scenario is that I will have to wait out the 14 days I gave them , if they then don't refund willingly , I will need to ask MasterCard to initiate a chargeback - hence I'm doing everything by email now and giving them a reasonable chance to still deliver .

I should just add that I'm still really hoping that they come through and deliver the goods , but it looks less likely with every day that goes on .

I'd call them and if they can't give you a tracking number on the phone initiate a chargeback with the credit card company. You're being taken advantage of.

I'm pretty much done talking to them on the phone - phone calls can be denied - hence the email .

I feel that , legally , by giving them a 'reasonable' deadline for delivery ( 14 days ) I will be seen as having been fair and reasonable if it ends up becoming a legal matter , whether by chargeback or via small claims court .

They have another week or so until 28th February , at which point I will formally cancel the order in writing - this time by recorded delivery post as well as by email - and give them seven days to refund .

By following that process , I will feel that I'm on solid legal ground for either the chargeback or court .

After receiving some good advice on another forum re the Distance Selling Regulations here in the UK , I sent the following email a short while ago

...... , I had a look through DSR and it appears I have the right to cancel as long as the goods have not been despatched . Moreover , the trader's website says the same thing , so I just sent the email below :

"Dear sirs ,

I am disappointed to note that my email below , sent on Saturday 14th February 2015 , has met with no reply despite three full working days having passed since then : I feel this is unacceptable .

To date , you have failed to supply any of the goods I ordered on 24th December 2014 and for which payment in full was taken on 6th January this year .

Despite receiving an email stating that the goods had shipped on 6th January , then being informed on 12th January that they had not shipped after all and assured that delivery would follow ’soon’ , then a similar conversation on 9th February , nothing has been delivered and I have therefore lost all confidence in your ability to supply the goods I ordered .

With reference to the ‘delivery and returns’ section of your website :

"Change or Cancel an Order
If you wish to cancel or make changes to your order please let us know xxxx@xxxx.co.uk who will be happy to change or cancel your order as long as it has not been despatched.

If your order has already been despatched or delivered, follow our Unwanted Product Returns within 14 days procedure."

I hereby wish to cancel my order forthwith and require a full refund of the £459.98 debited from my bank account on the 6th of January this year .

Please effect this refund immediately , otherwise I shall be obliged to initiate a chargeback via my card provider or to raise a small claims action .

If you have already despatched the goods , please provide a verifiable tracking number for the consignment by return .

If I hear nothing within 24 hours , and do not see the funds in my account , I will initiate the chargeback on Friday 20th February 2015 .

Yours faithfully , "

I'll follow that up with a hard copy in the post tomorrow and see what happens .

Miraculously , 12 minutes after sending the above email , I received the following reply !

"Hi Derek

Sorry fore the delay on getting back to you I will get this order resolved for you

Regards xxxx xxxxxx"

I have given him until close of play tomorrow to either give me a firm delivery date or refund .

Too much effort for too little savings. If I were you I would have cancelled the order weeks ago and bought from a more reputable or (even better) local dealer. The 504 is a widely sold head, I don't think it's worth this kind of trouble...

Indeed .

Well , come 6pm I had heard nothing , so I emailed him saying that , in as much as I had not heard from him , I presumed he was unable to fulfil the order , therefore I wanted to cancel immediately and required a full refund .

To give him credit , I received an email back some 15 minutes or so later stating that he had processed the refund , and a duplicate email from Amazon ( he is an Amazon seller , although I had ordered directly with him and not via Amazon ) .

All that remains now is to check by the ATM on my way home tonight and verify the money is there .

All being well , I will reorder from a trusted seller , who I have already checked has the head in stock .

If the first guy is to be believed , the problem was availability of the microphone , rather than the head .

Despite all that has happened , I still think it would be bad form to name and shame the guy on an open forum , but if any members are worried that they might be ordering from this seller , they can PM me and I'll confirm whether or not someone you are thinking of buying from might be this person .

To draw a line under this , the refund showed up in my bank account today .

I have now reordered the microphone from a trusted supplier who were showing it in stock for immediate dispatch and have an eta of tomorrow for delivery .

I was still having second thoughts about the MN 504 head , so in the meantime I have ordered a used MN 505 from another trusted supplier and have been advised to expect delivery on Wednesday . This head , although an older model , seems to be well thought of and should do the job for me until such time as I can afford a Sachtler , Vinten or whatever .

Both of these vendors are ones I have bought from on multiple past occasions and have always been reliable .

Both the Sony ECM-MS2 and the Manfrotto MN505 head arrived today .

The mic feels very nicely constructed , good weight , short enough not to intrude into vision and , most importantly , appears to sound very nice . On initial listening , through my HD25's , there is some separation , but largely biased towards the centre ; if I talk straight ahead , there is a solid centre image with just a little ambience - just as it should be .

Re the head , I fitted it onto my Manfrotto 350 legs using the 100mm to 75mm bowl adaptor I bought last week ; sadly the bottom thread is different from that on my 100mm half ball , so the large tightening wheel ( which I much prefer ) from the 100mm ball cannot be interchanged with the stick tightener which came with the head - not really a big deal .

On mounting it onto the tripod , the head is a bit bigger than the MN501 clone I have here on a Vinten Pro Touch 5 tripod , but much more compact and lighter than the 116MKII head I was previously using with larger cameras .

On installing it onto the legs , it was immediately apparent that this is a true fluid head , unlike the friction , or even lubricated friction , offerings further down the Manfrotto range , such were the silky smooth movements both in the horizontal and vertical planes .

Although I bought a used head , I was pleasantly surprised to find that it arrived in the original box , with user manual and guide to the counterbalance spring kit , which was complete . As supplied , it had the red spring fitted , which was much too strong for my HVR V1e , so I swapped it for the grey one , rated at 2Kg , about right for my camera . Without any accessories mounted , there is a very slight tendency for the camera to slowly return to horizontal , unless a fair bit of drag is dialled in , I have yet to try it with a light , radiomic receiver mounted , or I could try the weaker white spring - I'll have a good play with it over the next few days .

Both drag adjustments are infinitely variable ( not stepped ) and can go from very free to very tight and anywhere in between .

The head came with two QR plates : one with a VHS pin and one with a long slot in the middle and a 1/4" threaded hole at one end and a 3/8" hole at the other , allowing a combination of the two screw sizes to be used for camera plates which accommodate both .

I took off the supplied pan bar and fitted my Manfrotto 523PRO remote control arm , which looks like it belongs there .

First impressions very , very good . I'll try it alongside one of the Sachtler heads at work and report my impressions , but I suspect it will be closer than I'd have previously imagined . It is certainly a world away from the 501 clone on the ProTouch .