Hi Guys

I know Noa is still a proud Daddy of a new 3 axis gimbal for a GoPro but I'm wondering if I can get away a 2 axis model?? The two axis ones basically control pitch and roll right? I follow the bride and groom around in a garden setting so I never do any pan shots at all. All my current shots on Stedicam involve going around them walking or across them while they gaze lovingly into each other's eyes and kiss etc etc ..usual soppy stuff. However I always do the movement, never the camera so there would never be an issue where I would be in one spot and then try to pan either left or right across the couple. If I want to go to the left they stay where they are and I will move left to create a new angle.

So am I right or wrong saying that the only thing I need to control is pitch and roll which a 2 axis gimbal will do nicely the way I'm thinking? I really need to get rid of 25lbs of stedicam (excluding the camera!) and have something that's handheld and simple to hold and not generate buckets of sweat on a 40 degree C afternoon.

Chris

I believe that third stabilisation point is for panning motion no? That would mean if you change direction with a 3 axis gimbal it should be smoother as it slowly will follow your movement. I just called for delivery status for my gopro and still have to wait at least 2 more weeks before it will be available, I then at least can tell you what a 3 axis stabilised can do, I only have one more wedding to do before winter break so have plenty of time to practise but I think for you it is just starting?

Thanks Noa

Much appreciated!!

I've seen a 2 axis gimble on a glidecam - looked pretty good to me

BEHIND THE SCENES - 2 Axis Gimbal on Glidecam - YouTube

Here that 2 axis gimbal is so effective because it's on a steadicam so any left or right swaying or tilting because of the wind is being corrected by that extra gimbal, I think Chris wants to get rid of the steadicam weight all together and just use a stick with a 2 axis gimbal mounted to it. I"m sure it won't take long before they make gimbals like in this video with the wiring neatly hidden and suitable to mount small dslr's to it, in combination with a small steadicam you can make very stable moves, even if you are less a experienced steadicam operator.

I guessing here that this guy has two of these units? or was the footage shot just with a stedicam??

I have seen some excellent footage using just 2 axis motors but if you stand in one place and try to do a 180 pan it does get the jitters. I also feel that whether you have a 3 or 2 axis unit if you throw it around like a toy it's not going to give you good footage. I can take a GoPro and do a 360 around a couple and apart from a few wobbles it works pretty well mainly because I'm walking in "stedicam mode" ... add one of these units and keep in stedicam walking mode and it will be silky smooth at weddings ... I doubt whether you could use a handheld 3 axis unit and walk or run like a baby elephant ..it will help but it's not going to be that good. To use these effectively one needs to handle it just like you would a stedicam and the magic will happen!

Yeah Paul I'm getting tired of donning 15kg (without the camera) of rig on 40 degree celcius days in Perth and coming back after 20 minutes and being able to wring the sweat out my shirt. It takes a lot out of you !

My rig is going and a mini rig will replace it!! We have a local guy with the 2 axis model so I think I will try that with an adventure cam and see what happens... at least my arms and back won't kill me!!

Chris

Oh well we will see how practical a 2 axis gimbal is going to be pretty soon! I have just had a notification that my parcel is available at the postal depot in a few hours time so I will charge the batteries and give it a whirl in the back yard. If all looks good I'll use it on a bride and groom at tomorrows wedding on the beach and let you guys know the results. It has to be better than lugging a massive stedicam around and my wedding "creative shoot" is only a 10-15 minute session anyway.

Still waiting for a second GoPro style camera to arrive as I use my existing one as a safety cam high up at the ceremony so I need the 2nd one to do some fun shots once I have it

Chris

Ok I have a question maybe Noa can answer. Do we shoot blind with the hand held Feiyu unit. My little SJ4000's have an LCD back which you can monitor with but the motion sensor is mounted on the rear camera bracket so it blocks almost the whole screen. OK Wifi is an option but where would one mount a Smart Phone so you can see what you are shooting?? I suppose one could make two brackets that extend to one side off the handle but that might get in the way.

Are there any suggested options that would make a preview screen that you don't need to try and hold with your spare hand ..that would be really awkward.

Noa?? how are you intending to see what you are shooting or will it be so wide, it doesn't matter

The feiyu comes with a smartphone holder that attaches to the back of the handle to which the gimbal is attached, I plan to use my motorola phone and a gopro app that you can download for free so my phone can show whatever the gopro is seeing.

Thanks Noa

Both my cams have LCD's but I have the non wifi models. I saw a guy on you tube who got a 3.5" monitor

Video is here... I like the fact that it just plugs onto the back on the roll gimbal motor and is at a great level for shooting too. My SJ cams also have AV out which is good enough for seeing what you are doing. At the moment I need to eyeball my shots so I just might build this ..saves having to use my phone and an app and it's cheap as chips too!!!

BTW I gave the 2 axis gimbal a quick run inside this evening and it's awesome!! So simple to get steady footage too!! The only thing it might struggle with is a horizontal pan as it only has a roll and tilt motor but it does a better job than my stedicam and doesn't kill my back.

Feiyu 2-Axis Handheld Gimbal for Gopro Hero 3+ & 3.5" Monitor - YouTube

Chris

Since a general issue in this thread is stabilizing a small gopro-like camera using a simple handheld stabilizer and being able to frame shots, there are two alternative options to mounting both a cellphone to a gimbal just to see along with the GoPro:

1. The Steadicam Curve. This is a dedicated-to-GoPro handheld, small stabilizer (non-motorized) that has the advantage in that you can use the lcd back on the camera so you see what you are shooting. Adding a phone to the gimbal and connecting by wifi to a gopro on a 3-axis (or 2-) stabilizer so you can see what you are shooting is approaching absurdity.

The issue is how well the Steadicam does in stabilizing. But it has the same compactness.

2. A cellphone on a 3-axis gimbal to shoot the video. The lcd on the phone is completely visible, and now a few phones shoot 4K video that in many cases is better than what you get from a GoPro or their clones. There are dedicated 3-axis gimbals for cellphones that are available.

Adding a phone to the gimbal and connecting by wifi to a gopro on a 3-axis (or 2-) stabilizer so you can see what you are shooting is approaching absurdity.

Why is that? the phone just acts as a small screen, unless you think flying blind is not absurd :) the phone just attaches to the back of that 3 axis stabiliser from the Feiyu, you don't have to custommake anything, it comes as an accessory, just click the phone into it's place and you are good to go. Some might think though using a cellphone on a gimbal looks absurd ;)

The Steadicam Curve can come nowhere near a 3 axis stabilised gimbal, it's a toy that is almost impossible to get steadicam like shots with.

A cellphone on a 3-axis gimbal is much more limited then using a gopro, we all know how versatile a gopro can be, so beside using it on a 2 or 3 axis gimbal you can attach it in or out a car or to whatever you want, use it as a second unmanned camera for the odd super wide angle, use it under water, try doing that all with a cellphone, a cellphone you use to make phonecalls and do your occasional video, take pictures and use it as a minicomputer, or as a screen for your handheld stabiliser :).

Why is that? the phone just acts as a small screen, unless you think flying blind is not absurd :) the phone just attaches to the back of that 3 axis stabiliser from the Feiyu, you don't have to custommake anything, it comes as an accessory, just click the phone into it's place and you are good to go. Some might think though using a cellphone on a gimbal looks absurd ;)

The Steadicam Curve can come nowhere near a 3 axis stabilised gimbal, it's a toy that is almost impossible to get steadicam like shots with.

A cellphone on a 3-axis gimbal is much more limited then using a gopro, we all know how versatile a gopro can be, so beside using it on a 2 or 3 axis gimbal you can attach it in or out a car or to whatever you want, use it as a second unmanned camera for the odd super wide angle, use it under water, try doing that all with a cellphone, a cellphone you use to make phonecalls and do your occasional video, take pictures and use it as a minicomputer, or as a screen for your handheld stabiliser :).

I have the Hero 4 Black, and really like it. But I think using it to take video on a gimbal with a cellphone as a viewer is inferior in ergonomics and video quality to just using a 4K cellphone on a gimbal to take the video - you just need one device, no need to connect to anything by wifi, and you do not get the distortion of the GoPro fisheye. Easier to set up, smaller, and better video using the cellphone as the 4K camera. The GoPro is good for stationary wide shots, not for following people around (distortion).

Here are two example 4K videos using a Samsung Galaxy S5 on a 3-axis motorized gimbal:

Samsung Galaxy S5 on 3-Axis Digital Gimbal: 4K Video In Washington Square Park, NYC on Vimeo

4K Stabilized Handheld in Bryant Park and the NYC Public Library: Samsung Galaxy S5 + 3-axis Gimbal on Vimeo

I do not think the GoPro would be better for this (you might be better).

Eventhough my only experience with the gopro at this moment is what I read about it but some features (beside the obvious much more versatile applications you can use it for, not only for stationary shots :)) that stand out for me is the fact that you can shoot at 4k at 25p, 2,7k at 50p in ultra wide and medium view and 1080p at 120p, don't know how much quality will suffer at other resolutions but will know soon.

Also protune is a huge benefit for shooting flat and colorcorrect to match other camera's and the fact that you do have quite some control over different settings like iso, shutter or whitebalance, much more limited then on a real videocamera but still sufficient to have more control over what you shoot.

Also the time lapse feature is something worth trying out and not to mention the fact you can monitor what it sees from your phone also opens up other possibilities .

Not sure what you can do with a 4k phone as it probably will do most things fully automatic. A 4k phone is great in use because you always have it on you and like you have proven can supply great imagery but the gopro has way more options in use, also in professional video. I plan to use it at a wedding but can see many more uses for it for my paid work, even for my company videos just because it can be so versatile.

The gopro is great. It is not great for use on a gimbal. The gopro is more "fully" automatic than the Galaxy S5. Look it up. This thread is about using a gimbal, and all I am saying is that a GoPro on a gimbal is inferior in every way to a 4K smartphone on a gimbal. I own the gopro and the smartphone and gimbal so this is based on experience. The gopro has many wonderful uses and produces good video. It is not well-suited to gimbal use.

Why is it inferior in any way to use on a gimbal? Have you tried the gopro on a 3 axis gimbal?

Hi Noa

I cannot see any logic in that either. I just finished a wedding shoot using the little SJ400 on the 2 axis gimbal and the footage is very pleasing indeed!! There is no way I could have kept the levels as good as the gimbal did it and we were fighting 30 knot wind on the beach too. I'm very impressed and more to the point my back doesn't ache and it's so great to use a tiny little device with just one hand to get great footage!

I had to shoot max wide as I was guessing the framing but it still looked excellent! I think instead of messing around with my Smart phone and wifi I will simply zap a 2.5" self powered LCD on the back of the roll motor and hook it into the camera with an interface cable!

To answer my question, yes, I can get away with a 2 axis gimbal but due to my camera being 2mm thicker than the GoPro casing I had to go out and buy two longer clamp screws. No big deal


Chris

I should be able to find out next week as my gopro is promised to arrive, I could not find any gopro footage back on Marks vimeo page that where taken on a gimbal as they all where static shots but I probably overlooked as there are so many video :) I wanted to see why it is so bad for use on a gimbal. The camera does have a wide and superwide view where I would see the narrower view for most shots and the superview would be great to get a full view of a church or any other large building for instance + you can crop the image as well if you want to narrow the field of view even more. Can't wait to get my hands on one, hope I won't be throwing it out the window after I tried it. I have a wedding in 2 weeks, if the gopro gets delivered in time I"m going to take it with me to test, will be fun.

Hi Noa

I had to shoot max wide as I was guessing the framing but it still looked excellent! I think instead of messing around with my Smart phone and wifi I will simply zap a 2.5" self powered LCD on the back of the roll motor and hook it into the camera with an interface cable!

Chris

Hi Chris, I may be wrong but I don't think the SJ4000 is able to record while you are using the video output. You can certainly monitor the image via the av out, but I think it is one or the other. The GoPro can record and send a video output at the same time.

Roger

Thanks Roger

I don't want to record to an external device..I'm just recording to it's own microSD card ..unless you mean that you cannot get a video out signal while recording?? On all the units made after 27th April 2014 you can send a signal to a monitor while recording but only via the USB port and you can do this in record mode too. You do however need the microUSB to RCA cable. The guys with drones are using them now and plugging into a video transmitter.

Chris

Let me try one more time as someone who has both a GoPro and a 4K cellphone, and have actually used a cellphone on a gimbal:

No one is saying a GoPro is bad on a gimbal; what I am saying is that a 4K cellphone is better. It is better 4K video (no distortion) and you can view what is being shot on a big high resolution lcd. Simple and good quality. Using a GoPro: to see what the GoPro sees you need to carry the GoPro *and* a cellphone and connect by wifi thereby depleting the already challenged battery of the GoPro.

Really this is simple: which is better, carrying around a GoPro and a cellphone on a gimbal or just shooting with the cellphone on a gimbal? Unless there is some reason to believe the GoPro is providing some superior 4K quality, I think it makes little sense to belittle using the cellphone. Again, the GoPro is a versatile tool providing extraordinary 4K video that can be used many ways; it is less good and user friendly than a 4K cellphone on a gimbal given the viewing limitations, short battery life, need for also carrying a cellphone, and its fisheye.

There is nothing wrong with a GoPro on a gimbal. There is a simpler better alternative. OK? You don't have to use the alternative.

Hi Roger

Yep it works perfectly with the right cable and will also send thru a video TX see this video.

There is a huge amount of info also on the RC forum owners thread at : SJ4000 Action Cam ***Owners Thread*** - RC Groups (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2090990)


SJ4000 AV out proof for FPV - YouTube

Chris

I've been eyeing the Sony Z3... cell phone on 3 axis gimbal sounds as tempting if not moreso than the GoPro...

Let me try one more time as someone who has both a GoPro and a 4K cellphone, and have actually used a cellphone on a gimbal:

I was a bit confused as you first said that the gopro on a gimbal is inferior in every way to a phone but if I understand you right you have not used the gopro on a gimbal at all?

I can't agree that either the phone or the gopro have any significant advantages when you use them on a gimbal when it comes to portability, it's the gimbal that becomes the extra ballast in both cases. In both cases you have to use the phone, either to shoot with or to use it as a screen. The gopro you can just leave attached to the gimbal at all times.

That using the gopro's wifi will deplete the battery faster is a fact but I don't plan to shoot 2 hour concerts with it, it will be used for very specific shots throughout the day at a wedding, so if the batterylife will be more limited, you still can use sparebatteries to get you through a whole day of shooting.

Fact remains that the gopro is a much more versatile camera to be used in different applications, the major advantage of a phone is that you always have it on you, so incase you need to get a shot and don't have a dedicated camera with you, a phone can now provide professional looking images if the conditions are right. It can mean the difference in getting the shot or not, and if you have a gimbal with you have added functionality but that is something you need to be dragging along with you so that's something you only will use for specific situations.

The wide and extreme wide angles of a gopro is something I actually want to have, if I want to have focal length and dof choice I use my steadicam with my gh4 and a lens of choice but I want something that shoots really wide and has front to back sharpness and that can fit in my backpack, I also want the 2,7k at 50fps in order to be able to crop and do slowmotion but still need to see how those different framerates and resolutions work out.

It will be fun to try, that's for sure :)

Hi Roger

Yep it works perfectly with the right cable and will also send thru a video TX see this video.

There is a huge amount of info also on the RC forum owners thread at : SJ4000 Action Cam ***Owners Thread*** - RC Groups (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2090990)


Chris

Hi Chris,
The video just seems to show the cam connected via the video out to a fatshark tx which is then being picked up by the rx connected to the goggles. I can't see that they are recording on the camera at the same time.

Have you succeeded in getting your own SJ4000 recording and monitoring at the same time? I can get the video out with mine but not while recording. There also seems to be total confusion on the RCG forum as to what are fake cameras and what are not, in addition to whether you can record and monitor. There seems to be an idea that the latest models can do both, but mine is showing the latest firmware but cannot do both. Very puzzling!!

Roget

Hi Roger

The guy is Dustin Wilkins and in the video below he shows you how to mod a standard microUSB cable and the pin connections. He made the 2nd video too I think but in this one he most definitely shows the cam recording and outputting composite video to his little monitor which is what I want.

The only thing I don't know is whether the made up SJ4000 AV cables you can buy use pins 4 and 5 as per the video. He has allowed comments on YT so we could ask him ...the only criteria is that your firmware must be Version 1 (for some reason version 2 is the pre-April firm ware ) and was only installed on cameras after 27th April 2014

Do you have a bought cable for AV that's USB (not HDMI) ???

Chris

SJ4000 DIY USB AV Out Cable Instructions and Details - YouTube

Chris, I have a cable that I made up to go from my GoPro usb out to my video tx on the quad. it doesn't work with the SJ4000 though. Maybe it's different wiring for the SJ4000.

Roger

Thanks Roger

eBay seem to have plenty of specific cables for the camera for only $5 so it's worth a try. On my gimbal it would be a lot easier with a monitor BUT not essential. I shot a romantic video on the beach totally blind and no-ones head got cut off and it was a darn side easier than sweating in a stedicam vest!!

If you scroll thru the last item on the menu it gives you the firmware version ..if it ends with a V01 it should be the new firmware. If the stock cable doesn't work it wouldn't be too tricky to mod one if you are handy with a soldering iron. Do you own a multimeter?? if so see if you can see if the video out plug goes back to terminals 4 and 5 on the micro usb??

Chris

To be honest Chris I am not that bothered about the live monitor, as i will be trying to build my own gimbal in the Winter and should be able to see the camera screen. it would only really be useful to replace the GoPro on the quad as it is a much cheaper camera. Having said that, I have just ordered another SJ4000 for £38 :-)

Roger

I was a bit confused as you first said that the gopro on a gimbal is inferior in every way to a phone but if I understand you right you have not used the gopro on a gimbal at all?

I can't agree that either the phone or the gopro have any significant advantages when you use them on a gimbal when it comes to portability, it's the gimbal that becomes the extra ballast in both cases. In both cases you have to use the phone, either to shoot with or to use it as a screen. The gopro you can just leave attached to the gimbal at all times.

That using the gopro's wifi will deplete the battery faster is a fact but I don't plan to shoot 2 hour concerts with it, it will be used for very specific shots throughout the day at a wedding, so if the batterylife will be more limited, you still can use sparebatteries to get you through a whole day of shooting.

Fact remains that the gopro is a much more versatile camera to be used in different applications, the major advantage of a phone is that you always have it on you, so incase you need to get a shot and don't have a dedicated camera with you, a phone can now provide professional looking images if the conditions are right. It can mean the difference in getting the shot or not, and if you have a gimbal with you have added functionality but that is something you need to be dragging along with you so that's something you only will use for specific situations.

The wide and extreme wide angles of a gopro is something I actually want to have, if I want to have focal length and dof choice I use my steadicam with my gh4 and a lens of choice but I want something that shoots really wide and has front to back sharpness and that can fit in my backpack, I also want the 2,7k at 50fps in order to be able to crop and do slowmotion but still need to see how those different framerates and resolutions work out.

It will be fun to try, that's for sure :)
as I understand it you have never used a phone on a gimbal or a gopro at all. Why not keep a phone on a gimbal and use it for gimbal shots and then the gopro is free for all those different uses you have in mind without having to unhitch it from a gimbal. I agree completely the gopro opens up lots of creative uses, and I look forward to seeing what you do with it. I just don't get why you resist using a phone for a gimbal and the gopro for more suitable uses.

Hi Mark

The model gimbal that Noa and I have (except he has the 3 axis one) are specifically made to mount a GoPro so since Noa has spent a heap of money on the gimbal it would probably be difficult to try and modify the mount (and have enough space for a phone) ... he has his gimbal already plus the GoPro is on it's way hence the reluctance to use a phone in it's place ..he probably would have to end up getting a new gimbal that could fit a phone.

I'm sure a phone would work much the same... do phones have a wide angle view like an action cam or do you need a fisheyes lens? I can see the advantage however of having on board monitoring. My SJ4000 has an LCD but in the mount the sensor blocks the LCD almost totally sadly but I will just link it to a little 2.5" lcd behind the gimbal roll motor

Chris

Didn't hear about that sj4000 before and from the reviews I read it seems to compare quite well to the gopro3 when it comes to image quality, considering it's so cheap. How long does it record on one battery? Do you know if it has the same dimensions and weight as the gopro? The gopro4 is too expensive to use it in situations where it might get damaged (like when you attach it outside a moving vehicle) but such a sj4000 would be a good replacement for shots that have some risk involved, for almost 7 times the price differences it wouldn't hurt that much if you would loose one.

And yes, my gimbal is only suitable for a gopro, if it proves to be a working solution to even replace my steadicam I might look into a similar 3 axis gimbal suitable for a panasonic lx100. The only thing I do worry about is reliability, it's still lots of electronics and can let you down during a important recording, something you don't have to worry about with a normal steadicam.

Hi Noa

The ones I bought come with 3 batteries and I yet to have a battery die on me. At just over $100 here including all the mounts they are a steal and the built in LCD is very good!

On the gimbal you need to buy two M2 x 30 machine screws to replace the GoPro M2x 22 mm as they are just too short ..otherwise dimensions are identical ..their mounts also fit Hero mounts and the mounts they give you are far more useful too!! Lots of mounts with both 1/4" studs and threads for stand/tripod mounting

Chris

I'd agree with Chris that the dimensions are virtually identical. I can mount my SJ4000 on my Phantom GoPro gimbal with no alterations. The battery life seems to be about the same as the GoPro although I do have an external battery power pack if I am anticipating running over an hour.

There has been a lot of discussion on which cameras are original and which are fake and there is quite a bit of variation in price. The official SJcam model apparently uses the Novatek board and firmware and there are a couple of rebadged identical cams that all have the same components. I believe Qumox is one of them, but due to the ridiculously low price, I decided to take a gamble and order this one from Novatek SJ4000 Novatek 1080P 30fps 12MP H.264 1.5Inch 170°: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00JA0LQ2C/ref=pe_385721_37986871_TE_item)
Bearing in mind that I could buy seven of these for the price of one GoPro hero 3 in the UK, it seems like a risk worth taking, especially as it seems to be identical to the one I bought a month or so ago that has been excellent.

I'll report back when it arrives in about 3 weeks.

Roger

There are several comparison videos online and from I can see so far the main differences are that the sj4000 has issues with correct whitebalancing and doesn't do smooth transfer in exposure, below a video I found that shows the problem. He shot it waving the thing around but you can see the exposurejumps on the sj400 when he goes from the ground to the sky, the gopro colour is also much warmer.

SJ4000 vs GoPro 3 Black on Vimeo

Just one thing to note is that the genuine ones come in two models. With and without WiFi and very little price difference! My are all non wifi and I find Smartphones a PIA anyway !!

Noa? Just be aware that you cannot adjust the angle of view on the SJ4000 ..it's fixed full wide BUT it has a very good digital zoom and I seriously cannot see any difference in IQ as long as I only zoom 1.5X which takes all the curvature away ... also nice!!

Most eBay sellers go to great lengths to insist that the product they are selling is the real McCoy and not a fake one. I believe the fake ones even have spelling errors on the box!!

I only had Hero 2 cameras with ProTune and the indoor shots were horrific ..the SJ4000 seems to do a far better job and in normal lighting it outperforms a GoPro 2 easily!!

I needed 2 underwater cams for my upcoming diving holiday in the Cocos Islands in December so I figured that at the price they were brilliant but used them at weddings and sold my GoPro and that paid for 2 more!!

To me the GoPro 3 black should be miles ahead on exposure but in that video it looks decidedly crappy. That's closer to "muddy" rather than "warm"

I did have one issue where it struggled with balance on a hot day but easily correctable. Never had any exposure issues or jumps but then again I don't send it into the air.

So far very pleased with the footage and love the tripod mounted snap in clip ...I can use the camera on a light stand with no issues!!

There are a number of things that the video brings up. The clarity on both cams is pretty much the same and although I agree that the GoPro looks warmer, that is down to incorrect white balance on the SJ4000 judging by the blue tinge. I don't get that with mine on auto, but there is also a manual white balance select, so he may have it set for indoors. There is also a manual exposure and ISO option, so you don't need to use auto.

As Chris pointed out, it is a fixed wide view, but there is a digital zoom function. As the GoPro just crops the pixels for the narrower view, I would say that the SJ4000 zoom is doing basically the same thing. The other good thing with the SJ4000 of course is that it has the back screen and just about every attachment possible.

I would consider a GoPro 4 to be a big step forward, but I think the SJ4000 is a worthwhile alternative to the GP3 at a fraction of the price.

Roger

Yes, there is no argument against the very cheap price, I think the optional lcd backpanel of the gopro4 black is almost as expensive as the sj4000 itself.