First post, so bear with me. I'm trying to reach a decision on which camera to go with to replace our 4 dvx100s over the next four years. Naturally there are more specific requirements I have but it strikes me that what would be really useful amidst the explosion of different HDV variants is some matrix indicating what resolutions can be handled by what cameras, decks and (ideally) NLEs. If there's one in existence I'd love to know about it, if not, I'm happy to dig around and try and pull one together for the good of myself and I imagine many others who are perplexed by plethora of variants out there. Let me know.

Such a thing would make a great addition to our HDV Articles section.

Tim: as far as recording formats go, I think the following should sum this up for currently known affordable HD cameras.

- JVC HD1, HD10, HD100: HDV 720p30

- Sony HC1, FX1, Z1U: HDV 1080i60

- Sony XDCAM HD: modified HDV 1080i60 with PCM audio

- Canon XL-H1: HDV 1080i60 or HD-SDI output to deck of your choice

- Panasonic HVX200: DVCProHD at both 720p and 1080i/p resolutions at a variety of frame rates.


As a practical observation, if you need to replace four cameras and plan to work at 1080 resolutions, then getting 2-3 Sony FX1s and 1-2 more advanced cameras might be a useful solution.

If you're considering the HVX200, be sure you understand what your recording options would be and how much you'd need to budget for that on top of the price of the cameras.

Thanks. Specific concerns for me are wanting to standardise on one camera (they are used in a teaching context and it really makes a difference if the cameras are all the same) and being in the UK and using Avid Xpress Pro HD. These last two currently exclude the JVC - Avid's HDV release - 5.2 - doesn't support 720p/25 or 720p/50 but I understood that 720p was the flavour of choice in Europe and thus the dual format Panny looks the best bet IF the firestore option will talk to Avid. The Panasonic rep at IBC was telling me March before the Panasonic was readily available - I presume that's for the PAL version and the NTSC model will be released before year-end. Pre-rlease price for the Panasonic in the UK seems to be £5K inc VAT which I'm hoping is the bundle with two 8GB P2 cards (and cheaper without) otherwise that rules out that option on cost alone - the Canon I've seen for £4400 inc VAT which strikes me as one of those instances where we might not get turned over on the exchange rate.

If cost is an issue I'd say the Sony FX1 is easily the best value to date, with impressive image quality and a decent selection of manual controls for a "street price" of just over $3000 US. As far as Avid is concerned, I was under the impression they're planning to implement full HDV support, so I don't know why they wouldn't support the JVC cameras. Maybe they'll fix that before you get around to buying your cameras.

Tim: as far as recording formats go, I think the following should sum this up for currently known affordable HD cameras.

- JVC HD1, HD10, HD100: HDV 720p30

- Sony HC1, FX1, Z1U: HDV 1080i60

- Sony XDCAM HD: modified HDV 1080i60 with PCM audio

- Canon XL-H1: HDV 1080i60 or HD-SDI output to deck of your choice

- Panasonic HVX200: DVCProHD at both 720p and 1080i/p resolutions at a variety of frame rates.


As a practical observation, if you need to replace four cameras and plan to work at 1080 resolutions, then getting 2-3 Sony FX1s and 1-2 more advanced cameras might be a useful solution.

If you're considering the HVX200, be sure you understand what your recording options would be and how much you'd need to budget for that on top of the price of the cameras.

Well; it was looking good up until the fact that some other parts of the world got left out - you know; the PAL based bits...

And lumping the NTSC/PAL 1080i 60/1080i 50 Z1 under the NTSC only banner could lead to even more confusion!!

And how to classify the JVC PD1? This PAL camcorder is sort of - well - an indeterminate little beastie that's basically the HD1, without true 720 but not necessarily SD...

I'm sure that no matter how brilliantly composed or organised - let alone legible - any list of info on these camcorders can be made, there'll always be confusion about what's available.

So someone sees that the Sony Z1 shoots 1080i 60, and they think "that seems good", but then they read some post that says "the HD100 has better image quality at 720p 30 than the 1080i 60 Sony"... and they now think "I'm confused. I thought 720 wasn't as big as 1080... what do I believe?"

Tim, it seems to me that you already had a pretty good idea of what's involved - if you've spoken to a Pana representative, you had some idea of what's going down... Why the need for re-assurance? Seems that what you really wanted to know could have been found in quite a few posts dealing with these specific issues.

Mind you - if Avid Xpress Pro HD has no 720 25 or 720 50 support as you report, they're in the deep smelly stuff compared to almost every other NLE. It's more than surprising - it's mind-boggling!! What a laughing stock they'll be...

So someone sees that the Sony Z1 shoots 1080i 60, and they think "that seems good", but then they read some post that says "the HD100 has better image quality at 720p 30 than the 1080i 60 Sony"... and they now think "I'm confused. I thought 720 wasn't as big as 1080... what do I believe?"

There's a comparison making the rounds now in which the conclusion is that the HD100U running at 720p offers basically the same image quality as the Sony Z1U running at 1080i. If this confuses anyone they just need to do some reading to understand why this might be the case, and then decide which camera suits them better based on other considerations.

Steve,
you are right to surmise that I'm not entirely without gorm on these matters, and my initial post was more a case of testing the desirability of some repository where not just me but everyone considering a move up to HDV might find in one place a simple answer to the 'will x work with y and will they both talk to z' questions that such a move necessarily entails. As expected, prudent deployment of the search function on a number of fora and manufacturers' pdfs will yield the information required but given the sheer number of variants and the fact that the exercise will be repeated countless times by people with their own checklist of desirables I'd be happy to contribute to a greater or lesser degree to getting the info down in one place. I hope I'm not seeing complexity where it doesn't exist, but Kevin's summation of what's out there (and your subsequent qualification) is indicative of the need for some Rosetta Stone of emergent HDV.
As an addenda I have to confess that in the course of this thread I've realised that sticking to the mantra of going with one camera because it facilitates teaching is actually compromised by the fact that I'll be replacing four DVX100s over four years so inevitably I'll have at least two different cameras on the go at any one time!

The matrix isn't all that complex, for HDV:

JVC supports 720p only, and JVC stuff only works with other JVC stuff. If you want 720, JVC's the only option. If you want progressive-scan, JVC's implementation is the only one that offers progressive scan.

Canon and Sony support 1080i only. Neither works with JVC equipment. If you want 1080i, you can go with Canon or Sony. Theoretically Canon gear should play back Sony footage, although Sony gear won't play back all Canon footage. Canon has their own proprietary "24F" mode that doesn't work with Sony.

Barry,
you sort of answer my question and also illustrate why I raised it. First off the Panasonic (vapourware in effect, I know) cites 720 and 1080 as attributes and (at the risk of intimating that what I'm after is a summation of everything known about all camcorders, ever) I'm interested in the legacy features of these cameras ie what they do in the SD domain. Second, the NTSC/PAL switchable functionality holds some sway for my particular needs and even the extent to which existing DV tape is supported and deployed across SD and HDV. And thirdly (OK I'll fess up and acknowledge that we don't get to buy kit often and so when the opportunity comes along we at least like to feel that we have one camcorder to rule them all) what provides a route outside/beyond the HDV format clash? In that respect the Canon and the Panasonic both seem to offer something in excess of the JVC and Sony. Please take this in the spirit in which it is made rather than a late night argument (I have other fora for such things!)

Okay then, more info, especially if you want to throw the HVX into the mix:

All of the proposed and released HDV and DVCPRO-HD cameras support DV recording. That's a given.

Among HDV cameras:
The JVC stands unique in that it offers 24p in DV in the NTSC version, and 25p in DV in the PAL version. The JVC is also unique in that it offers an extended-definition recording system, 480/60p and 576/50p in both versions. The JVC has no provision to record 60p or 50p in high-def, so it is incapable of recording "reality"-looking programming. The JVC is the only HDV model capable of progressive-scan.

The Sony cameras (apart from the Z1) are either NTSC or PAL. The NTSC units offer 1080/60i, the PAL units offer 1080/50i.

The Sony Z1 offers NTSC and PAL, 1080/60i and 1080/50i in the same unit. It is the only out-of-the-box, fully dual-standard unit on the market.

The Canon (out of the box) is not a dual-standard unit, it is either NTSC or PAL, either 1080/60i or 1080/50i, unless you spend $500 to upgrade it to be dual-standard. The option does exist.

The HVX is a whole different animal. It does not use the HDV format, nor does it record to tape (except for when in miniDV mode). It offers true progressive scan, as well as interlaced acquisition. The US version offers 1080/24p, 1080/30p, and 1080/60i, *and* 720/24p and 720/30p and 720/60p, plus single-frame/intervalometer capability, and some variable frame rates (such as 12, 18, 22, 36, and 48fps). All of that is recorded at 4:2:2, rather than the 4:2:0 of HDV. It also offers the DVCPRO50 recording format for 4:2:2 standard-def recording at very mild compression, in addition to regular 4:1:1 DV recording. It records nonlinearly on internal P2 cards or an external optional FireStore; it records to tape in DV mode. In standard-def resolutions (DVCPRO50 and DV) it records 480/24p, 480/30p, or 480/60i.

The HVX is not an international dual-standard model; there is an American version and a European version. The European version records 1080/25p and 1080/50i, as well as 720/50p and 720/25p and some variable frame rates. In standard-def it is 576/25p and 576/50i.

Thanks Barry. So if my NLE (AVID Xpress Pro HD) says it does 1080/50i within its HDV spec I can't assume that it'll also play along with what the HVX chucks out? And (departing from the original question, but the spec you set out for the Panasonic seems a good fit for what I'm after) for all the flexibility that the P2 or Firestore acquisition offers am I right in assuming that, even if Avid now or later supports the frankly bewildering array of options of the HVX my ability to play them back for presentation will mean either a DVCPRO HD deck or possibly dumping back to the firestore and then getting a signal out of that? I can see that both Sony and JVC have, with their camcorders and decks, end to end paths for HDV (with distinct takes on the format) but in addressing what I do with the various HVX options am I either going to end up spending an absolute fortune or have a clunky solution to playback?

am I right in assuming that, even if Avid now or later supports the frankly bewildering array of options of the HVX my ability to play them back for presentation will mean either a DVCPRO HD deck or possibly dumping back to the firestore and then getting a signal out of that?

For what it's worth, you should be able to encode from any HD capture/editing format to standard HD delivery options. Or play from your editing timeline through a suitable video output on your editing system.

So if my NLE (AVID Xpress Pro HD) says it does 1080/50i within its HDV spec I can't assume that it'll also play along with what the HVX chucks out?
You cannot assume that any editor that works with HDV would also work with DVCPRO-HD, no. However, in your case, Avid is 100% compliant with DVCPRO-HD and will work with everything that the HVX "chucks out."

even if Avid now or later supports the frankly bewildering array of options of the HVX my ability to play them back for presentation will mean either a DVCPRO HD deck or possibly dumping back to the firestore and then getting a signal out of that?
HD delivery has always been a question mark. You can output it however you'd like. You could send it to DVCPRO-HD tape if you have a tape deck. You could burn it to a blu-ray or HD-DVD (assuming those come to market in a reasonable time). You could get an HD-SDI board and output to a D-5 or HDCAM or any other type of deck. You could even output it to HDV if you had an HDV deck or camera attached.

You could make a Windows Media HD DVD, which is perhaps the easiest, best, and lowest-cost option for delivering HD today, as it works with a regular 50-cent DVD-R and can play back on basically any WinXP desktop or laptop computer.

Or, you could output it to P2 and play it from the camera or a P2 deck. Or maybe you could output it to the FireStore and play it through there, although I'm not sure whether that would work or not.

Thanks Barry. So if my NLE (AVID Xpress Pro HD) says it does 1080/50i within its HDV spec I can't assume that it'll also play along with what the HVX chucks out? And (departing from the original question, but the spec you set out for the Panasonic seems a good fit for what I'm after) for all the flexibility that the P2 or Firestore acquisition offers am I right in assuming that, even if Avid now or later supports the frankly bewildering array of options of the HVX my ability to play them back for presentation will mean either a DVCPRO HD deck or possibly dumping back to the firestore and then getting a signal out of that? I can see that both Sony and JVC have, with their camcorders and decks, end to end paths for HDV (with distinct takes on the format) but in addressing what I do with the various HVX options am I either going to end up spending an absolute fortune or have a clunky solution to playback?

Now you are starting to see what HD/HDV is all about!!

It's something you'll need to think seriously about, given your educational intentions with the HD/HDV camera choice you make.

Even the XL-H1 presents the same input path dilemma. While it does record HDV, it's real targeted purchasing audience are those clients needing HD heads running SDI for live broadcast integration. Some folks here actually thought so little of the HDV capacity to record to tape, that the camera was originally NOT included with the other HDV camcorder forum. Is this what your students would like to be doing with the knowledge you'd like to provide them? Camera operators for Sports Networks/Indipendent Production Studios or "Reality" Series programs?

HDV on the other hand is related more to the HD product that's broadcast to the masses on Free To Air broadcast networks. That means, MPEG2 ts of no more than 19.3Mbit. The specs of all the HDV camcorders stay pretty closely linked to that basic set of data perameters.

So, if you'd like your students to learn more about shooting, editing and transcoding for eventual broadcast via FTA HD broadcasting networks, then a camera like the Z1 is - in my opinion; as an ex-teacher - almost perfection for the task.

You know what it is that would serve the educational needs and outcomes of your students best.

Now you have to make the decision on their behalf

I'm sure there'll be plenty of the - "but you can use this function of this NLE to get DVCPro Hd to MPEG2 ts for broadcast, after you've installed an AJA Kona or Blackmagic HD SDI card into your system" posts in response to my prior response.

I'm sure there's plenty of ways to convert the optimum HD streams that the XL-H1 and HVX200 pump out, but the fact remains that you have to buy extra hardware, and hope that your NLE will have the support and grunt for the data stream presented to it.

The HDV format on the other hand - given the short period of time HDV has been in the market place - is supported now by every major NLE, and the exploitation of it's improved handling in software is moving faster than I've seen for any product in ages... That's rare for a technology that originated totally outside the computer industry, but the potential seen by anyone who could add 2 HDV to 2 HTPC has meant the market has been shook up at last!!

The pundits of High Tech, have been trumpeting the convergence of computing and entertainment for quite a while - almost to the point where many folks just got used to ignoring it... And now it's here. Early form of it maybe; but not only is that changing fast, but those who are only just waking up to how caught out they've been - are having to compete with feature sets and capabilities that they may not have originally intended to release at the price-point they are forced to by the success of their competition.

It's interesting times ahead, and it'll be even more interesting once the X-Box 360 and the PS3 have hit the market place...

Thanks Steve - your point about where the students would eventually see themselves was particularly well made. I declare myself guilty of using this forum to think aloud about which way to jump regarding HDV and thanks to those who've shaped those thoughts into something more concrete. It's interesting that the HDV contenders have all emerged as very different beasts (or perhaps belatedly have pushed themselves as such to corner a particular niche) and only by looking at the whole production cycle is it possible to determine what best suits one's requirements.
Barry, thanks for the info - WMV HD sounds like the most cost-effective output option. I think I'm going to go away and worry some more good people about projection options for 1080i on a budget (and if anyone here wants to chip in I've been looking at the Panasonic PT AE700 but hopefully I'll find another section here to raise that one).

It's interesting times ahead, and it'll be even more interesting once the X-Box 360 and the PS3 have hit the market place...


Unfortunately the X-Box 360 is shipping with a DVD Drive instead of an HD-DVD drive. That's kind of disappointing.

I don't think MS had much choice as the HD-DVD (whatever fromat) has not been released yet.

They could choose to wait until next year, instead of the promise Christmas sales driving their decision, the bandwidth limitations of just using a DVD drive will hurt XBox 360 in the long run. Unless they repackage it with an HD-DVD drive and call it the 360 extreme or something. But that hasn't worked in the past. One of the exciting things about the nextgen systems was the promise of an HDTV media center, in Microsofts case it has become a half-promise. While Sony will ship with Blu-Ray. Bigger disc, more bandwidth to stream data off the disc.

Unfortunately the X-Box 360 is shipping with a DVD Drive instead of an HD-DVD drive. That's kind of disappointing.

And that's a problem how?

It's DVD drive will play any WMV9 1080i HD files you want to write to a standard single or dual layer DVD. So either 4.3Gig or 8.7Gig of HD... Even at bit-rates of around 19.3Mbit, that's quite a bit of HD material.

So for HD distribution, the X-Box 360 has a currently available and eminently affordable option. So I won't be able to play Blu-ray or HD-DVD material, which'll all be either re-mastered, re-digitised and re-released material from the commercial studios.

I'm not that upset about not towing the corporate line... of not allowing my desire to constantly have "the best", get in the way of my ability to see beyond the glitz and the glam of each new technological development.

The Network capability of the X-Box 360 is of more importance to me. Editing clips, and reviewing them as individual HD rendered segments is all well and good on a PC or editing monitor screen, but it always falls short of how the material looks when seen on a nice BIG HDTV!! So, how to get those "rushes" style renders to the big screen? You can write back to the camera - good, but very time consuming...

Or, you can use a HD Network Media Player. While the Avel linkplayer is the most likely contender (yeah there's the Buffalo...) it shares the Achilles' heel of the Roku HD1000 Photobridge - Unacceptable PAL HD playback. As I'm in a PAL zone, it's rather important that any HD device can handle PAL.

What would dissapoint about the X-Box 360 from my perspective, would be to find out that it suffers from the same PAL Achilles' heel. That's where I'm making a quantum leap in judgement about the "Cell" processors ability to carry out the necessary operations, above and beyond those carried out by the Sigma chipsets that seem to be universally used in every other HD Network Media Player.

PS3 might be plausible for the same purpose, but I've a sneaking suspicion it's gonna be expensive, and limited by it's HDMI only connections.

Just to throw a monkey wrench on the fire (I love mixed metaphores), In playing with the JVC HD100 and my updated Avid software, I find out after shooting some test footage this weekend that Xpress Pro HD does not in fact fully support the GY-HD100 formats yet. I cannot get 720p24 footage into the Avid.

Vegas on the other hand was able to do it. You cannot import m2t streams into Avid either so my option of grabbing it in Vegas and using the grabbed files in Avid don't work either.

Avid is a bit behind on this one so far. Just FYI stuff for the future Matrix.

We need two matricies (sp?) One for cameras and decks and one for NLEs and their supported formats. Might help people buy into a complete working HDV path.

Sean McHenry

We need two matricies (sp?) One for cameras and decks and one for NLEs and their supported formats.

While we're on that subject, if someone's compiling such a list for editing software, be sure to include whether the software can re-edit M2T, WMV-HD and/or H.264 files. I just saw someone pull a WMV file into Vegas this weekend and wasn't aware that was an option in any editing software, so now I'm curious who else can handle the sort of HD output files we'll be burning to disc next year.

While we're on that subject, if someone's compiling such a list for editing software, be sure to include whether the software can re-edit M2T, WMV-HD and/or H.264 files. I just saw someone pull a WMV file into Vegas this weekend and wasn't aware that was an option in any editing software, so now I'm curious who else can handle the sort of HD output files we'll be burning to disc next year.

There's quite a number of PC video editors/utilities/NLEs that can work with WMV9 - either loading or encoding wise. H.264 isn't in the such the same situation, but there's constant format support updates being made to all the major NLEs... Surprisingly freeware is often the first to add new HD capable codecs such as MPEG4 and H.264 - you'll need to keep an eye out: just like the rest of us.

To try and organise a list of the file handling capabilities of them all would be somewhat counter-productive however.

The list would need to be changed on such a regular basis - almost flamin' daily!!... that it's easier to just watch for posts regarding each new file handling attribute that's been added to a particular piece of software.

While a list of editing software with all current HD/HDV capabilities noted would indeed be a wonderful resource - I doubt that anyone in their right mind would seriously wish to undertake the task.

So many categories - so many appz - so many utilities. Many of us are still coming to grips with the most effective workflow for maintaining HD quality through the entire editing process.

The only truly 'Universal' proviso for editing HD on PC/Mac is to keep the number of encodes between that done in camera and that done at final render time, to an absolute minimum. So: for complex editing situations, there's proxy based editing appz, or appz that utilize an "Intermediate HD Uncompressed format".

It boils down too: on PC, going with Cineform CFHD avi based editing, or NLE's that use a similar uncompressed intermediate, or any that provide proxy file support... Nearly every piece of video editing software can load *.avi, which is why there's so many Cineform advocates in the PC HDV ranks.

LumiereHD allows similar capabilities on Mac - or so I believe from reading the posts in the Mac editing forum...

As a personal appraisal of HDV support on the two major computing platforms - I believe PC is more mature and better supported with a greater variety of programs (from expensive to free) that allow greater flexibility through the whole editing process.