I don't have a large budget to work with but want a decent mic if possible. I am looking for two mics. One is just going to go onto a cheap consumer camcorder so we can do little projects with this and still have a lot better sound than the camcorder can offer. I was thinking the Rode Videomic maybe. The other one would be for a professional camcorder. I was thinking the AT897 or Rode NTG1 price range. I am real confused about mics though. Where can you use shotgun mics? Indoor? Outdoor? I can't afford separate mics for both so does anyone some advice for me on this? Thanks so much.

Use a shotgun mic for outdoor work and a hypercardioid for indoor work. There are some shotguns that will work ok indoors. I have the hypercardioid AKG-CK93 that mounts on the SE-300B. You can get a shotgun CK-98 to fit on the same power supply. I also have the Rode NTG3 and it does ok indoors.
See test at Hyper & Shotgun Indoor Shootout: AT4053b Vs. Rode NT3 AND NTG-2 Vs. NTG-3 on Vimeo

I think I am learning that about outdoor and indoor but when your budget doesn't allow for that, it would mean I would have to buy 4 mics. I need a mic for 2 different cameras. A cheaper one for my cheap cameras and a semi nice one for my professional camcorder. I guess I am looking for the best alternative if there is one at all. I would be able to go $200 for cheaper mic that would make the cheap camcorder sound better. I know the Rode Videomic would make it sound 20 times better no matter where you used it and it has a kit with boompole plus other things for under $200. I was wondering if the AT-875 would be more of an indoor choice than other shotguns because it is a shorter mic. We are not professionals by any means and being in an educational setting we just don't have the budget. Not having anything at all does not give my students a chance to learn how to properly use this type of equipment so I am trying to get us into this inexpensively but yet I don't want to buy crap. I hope this makes sense. I am trying to use each mic for a multipurpose setting I guess.

No mic (no matter how much one spends) is going to sound very good mounted on a camera for dialog and such. Furthermore, If both cameras are shooting in the same space, only one mic would probably be used for nat (ambient) sound anyway. (FYI, two random mics would not produce a usable stereo image either.... especially if they're moving)

The adage holds true that a $100 mic one foot from the source will sound better than a $1000 mic 3 feet away. It's all about proximity (if you want to maximize your signal and minimize your noise). You might be better served with a Zoom H1 and a lav, if your intention is to get audio from one person at a time.

If you're doing narrative work, there are plenty of DIY tutorials on YouTube for building boompoles on the cheap. Don't go overboard on a high-end mic and expect pristine audio. That being said, you might want to scour Craigslist for audio gear once you've narrowed down your search.

No mic (no matter how much one spends) is going to sound very good mounted on a camera for dialog and such. Furthermore, If both cameras are shooting in the same space, only one mic would probably be used for nat (ambient) sound anyway. (FYI, two random mics would not produce a usable stereo image either.... especially if they're moving)
I am beginning to understand that. I would use a boom of some sort after talking to many people. I just need to find a boom pole and some type of holder that is inexpensive that would work. Why are the mic holders on the camcorders for anyway? Just curious.
Also, I am not trying to shoot with two mics in stereo. The cheaper little camera will just be for some little projects and things like that but will not be shooting in the same space ever. I would also hook up a boom from both if that did ever happen I guess.

Why are the mic holders on the camcorders for anyway? Just curious.


The mic holder on the camera is used to mount a shotgun mic to capture ambient sound. It can also be used as a backup in case your primary audio fails, or as a second reference source to sync to if you're capturing primary audio from an external device.

Basically, it depends on what you're shooting. I shoot a lot of fast-paced sports events, and my on-camera shotgun mic is my primary source of audio in those situations.

I shoot marching band video at outdoor competitions for our band director. it's just to give him an idea of how the formations are doing and not intended to be professional-quality audio by any stretch of the imagination. (actually, at the end of the competition season, i sync my video to a professionally-recorded studio version of the music, but that's another story altogether.)

for my video recordings, i use a Rode SVM (~3 yrs old) mounted on the camcorder and it is way better than the built-in mic. i always use a dead cat / windscreen, too.

again, not intended to be professional audio but rather intended to capture better audio than the built in mic. so IMHO a good choice for around $250.

Use a shotgun mic for outdoor work and a hypercardioid for indoor work. There are some shotguns that will work ok indoors.

I don't get this indoor/outdoor distinction. Microphones have frequency-dependent pickup patterns which cause them to vary from directional at high frequencies to omni a lower frequencies. Omnis are the least sensitive to wind while shotguns are the most sensitive. There is a huge wind sensitivity difference even between cardioids and omnis.

Cardioids reject nearly all sound in half a sphere. Hypercardioids to shotguns have a tighter front half sphere at the cost of a narrow pickup lobe in the rear. I can clearly demonstrate a 17" MKH-8070 shotgun rejecting much more room reverb than a MKH-8040 cardioid or AT897 short shotgun. If your subject is stationary and will fit in the tighter pickup pattern of the long shotgun, a long shotgun is fine for indoor use. The only distinction I can think of is that the room is not big enough to allow the subject to fit in the tight pickup pattern of the shotgun.

Choosing a microphone seems to be highly anecdotal in audio culture. The spec sheet of the microphone will tell you everything you need to know unless the unit is damaged. Few of the professional studio engineers I've met have looked at the frequency response or polar pattern of the microphones they use or recommend. Every one that I have shown the polar chart didn't know how to read it.

Here is another video that might explain more....
Misuse of Shotgun Microphones - YouTube

They are basic but explain things VERY well.

I use this mic on my camera and also on a boom or mic stand.
I find it covers most of what I do and you can't be the value on price and it sounds great also.
AT897 short shotgun.
Cheers

The problem with shotguns indoors isn't really about ambience - it is that with the way the interference tube works, an indoor setting might change the sound of the mic somewhat (due to phase issues). Some good explanations in this thread.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/504030-physics-polar-pattern-interference.html

That's not to say that you can't use a shotgun indoors, but for dialogue recording, mic on a boom, under a low ceiling - you might run into trouble. One answer to that is to use a hyper and a shotgun from the same manufacturer (like an MKH 40 and MKH 60) to get the benefits of each - and similar sound "character".

I know I'm resurrecting an old post, but I have a question that falls into the topic here.

That being said, I've been looking into the production of my first short film. I've shot lots of stupid tests in the past, but never a true narrative short. I'm putting up all the money for this short myself and have decided on a budget of $2.5k. That being said as I look at potential rentals I find that it is hard to find a place that will rent a small condenser microphone, such as Sennheiser MKH50 or Schoeps CMC6/MK41. 90% of my script is indoor dialogue, and everything outdoors is dialogue free, only foley sounds.

That being said, would it be better to rent a shotgun microphone like the Sennheiser MKH416 ($999.99 retail, $70ish for rental) for my indoor dialogue, or buy something such as a Rode NT3/NT5 ($269.00/$219.00)? The scene involves two people talking, about 3-5 feet from each other (standing in a kitchen) and I will be booming the microphone.

NOTE: I'll be recording these directly into the Blackmagic Design URSA mini 4k (rental). Should I rent something like a Tascam or Zoom recorder?

Thanks in advance.

There are rentals available for mics like the Schoeps Collette series and others.

Try Location Sound Corp, Trew Audio, there's one in Florida whose name I'm forgetting...

$30/day for a Schoeps hypercardoid with a 4 day week at locationsound.com.

Sorry I"m not familiar with the Ursa Mini. This would be a good thing to test, as going to a separate recorder does impact workflow.

Thanks Seth! I'll look into it. Definitely seems like reasonable prices. I have heard that the URSA had decent preamps that did the job without too much noise (like you would get from a DSLR), so I am operating on the assumption that the mini will be similar. However I do plan to test it. Thanks!

I live in the Scranton PA area and don't really know of anything near me. Most of the rental houses I keep finding, like Trew or Location Sound Corp are located in or around LA and don't say if they ship rentals...

In addition, it'll cost me $90-150 for a rental plus S&H whereas I can own a Rode NT3/NT5 for another $100 (meaning I wouldn't have to rent a microphone for my next short). But maybe the Sennheiser/Schoeps are worth renting every time?

5-10 feet is one hell of a split for any boom operator and the 416 is not the best mic for indoor use although I have used it on numerous projects without problems.

It may be better to hire a couple of lav radio mic's or looking at the rode aspect you can get pairs of NT5 mics so you would e able to double boom for the two actors.

I would check that the NT3 and 5 have high pass filters available at the mic end as that may save you a lot of problems with boom handling noise and mic bumps.

Also check out other options such as the Oktava mic's or my personal budget favorites the AT875R or the Takstar CM-60 cardioid.

Have a listen to this clip and it is an AT875R straight into the back of my camera on a gitzo carbon fibre boom: https://youtu.be/DH8mVouKkhg

5-10 feet doesn't seem right now that I'm thinking about it. I would say 3-5 feet is more accurate. Definitely wasn't thinking when I wrote that bit. As for lavalier mics, was an option I thought about. I'll be shooting mostly medium or close ups, so whoever has their back to the camera could be wearing a lavalier no problem. Then the boom op could focus on the other person. I do currently own a lavalier that I use with my Zoom H1 which is passable for sound (in the wedding work I typically do), but was hoping to not have to sync it up in post.

That being said, I'll look into the AT875R and Takstar CM-60 as well as the Oktava microphones. I ignored the Oktava mics before, mostly because I'd never heard of them and when someone mentioned them, I just assumed there was a good reason I'd never heard of them. But I'll look into it, thanks!

Yes, LSC and Trew ship rentals.

I have an Oktava hypercardoid, it's a *very* good budget mic! Much lighter on the end of a boom than the Rode NT1.

If the previous postings in the thread didn't make this clear, sometimes a short shotgun works fine for interiors, sometimes it doesn't. Of course nothing beats close-micing no matter what the mic is.

The frequent issue with shotguns for interiors is the lobes of sensitivity to low mids and low freqs at the back of the mic. Typically, the back of the mic is pointed towards the ceiling when booming. If there are reflections coming off the ceiling, they'll be picked up at a significant level, and they'll be out of phase with the direct sound, leading to a hollow, tinny, or metallic sound.

OTOH, with slightly different circumstances it may not be a problem at all. But, "kitchen" suggests a reflective environment.

Something Matthias wrote suggested that this might be a slim crew. Booming is a skilled position that requires a dedicated person. Wireless lavs have their weaknesses, but one of their strengths is how useful they are with slim crews. Lavs can be rigged to be completely hidden.

Ideally, you're laving and booming! Sound people tend to be pretty conservative...

Hey Seth! Thanks.

I work in wedding work, mostly, and am very used to hiding lavalier microphones, typically using a rycote undercover. That being said, movement is always an issue for such things, and I don't own any *good* lavaliers. Sure they are better than on camera mic, and they get the job done for weddings, but I'd be hesitant to use them as a main audio source if I can rent a pro-level condenser or shotgun.

That being said, I did send a message to both LSC and Trew about shipping rentals, and since they haven't gotten back to me, thanks for that information! I think I'll go ahead and rent the Sennheiser MKH-50 for this project.

I do have a dedicated boom operator. He will also be monitoring levels via headphones and I (who will be running the camera) will also monitor via on screen levels. My boom operator is a music recording technology major at a local college who has been operation his own "home" studio for about 3 years now, and running a live sound rental company for the same amount of time. Although he doesn't have boom operator experience, he knows a lot more about sound than I do.

It sounds like my best bet would be to use my cheap lavalier/H1 system as backup sound (potentially buying a second one to mic both people) and then use a boom with a pro-level condenser/short shotgun.

Side Note: I am not a "sound guy". I don't know much more than I have to about sound recording/editing so I appreciate all the help!

The MKH-50 should be ideal as it's a lightweight supercardioid with high sensitivity and low noise. (Though I admit that I haven't used one personally.)

One thing to stress with your audio guy is to get the mic as close as is possible. Even so, if the space is reflective, you might be disappointed with the effect of the room on your sound. If the mic enters the frame, you can always expand the image and crop, but it's hard to compensate for a too-far mic.

Having a college sound guy should be a good match, if he is motivated and attentive. On the other hand, if he feels that "this should be good enough", you might get mis-aimed too-far mic placement - especially as his arms tire. So really stress that he should strive for perfection.

And look for boom shadows. ;)

The other consideration is noise. Fortunately, the MKH-50 is sensitive, so it doesn't need the World's Cleanest Preamp™. Still, you'll want a good front end to avoid futzing with noise reduction in post.

Something else to consider (and that your college friend might be able to help with) is sound effects and Foley. Sound is much easier if you have a sound or music bed behind the dialog. It can cover many sins. (And you wonder why Star Trek has the ship rumble in every scene.) Consider how to provide motivated sound. Maybe a character turns on the radio or is cooking bacon or they are near a busy street with traffic noise. Or maybe it's hot and they turn up the air conditioner (to which you add your own, sweet AC sound, rather than running the real thing.) Considering the background sound before you shoot lets you set it up visually and to help support the mood of the piece or the nature of the character.

Best of luck with your project!

Thank you for the excellent advice. The plan is to record as many background sounds on location as possible. I will be scheduling that into each shoot day. I suppose that it would probably be better to have an external recorder then... if that is the case. I'll probably rent a TASCAM or maybe a sound devices recorder from LSC since they have very reasonable rental prices and the pre-amps will be much better. I've decided to downgrade from the URSA mini to a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera to make room for better audio equipment on my budget. I personally would rather have flawless audio, great lighting, and a decent camera than a "great" camera and have the audio or lighting suffer.

That being said, I must admit, the only reason I want to rent the Sennheiser MKH50 is because it is what the sound engineer used on the Social Network (probably my favorite film of the last 10 years). I watched through the special features, and when I saw them shooting that first scene in the bar with a single small microphone, I was intrigued. I read some comments from the actual engineer and was really intrigued by the potential of the Sennheiser. So to be fair, I'm a little biased towards that mic.

I'd be worried about a student booming for you, although I thought you said you were doing it? I'd echo the comment that boom ops need skills and experience. Running a home studio is very little help in this area. Years ago all to was done with booms, and the reruns don't shout bad sound at you. Accurate aiming is the killer. More so with two sound sources. Aiming between them is rarely nice sounding. So many good images are wrecked by rough sound.

I did say that I would be booming the microphone, but what I actually meant by that is that it will be boomed by someone on my set. I'll be directing and operating the camera (mostly because I have the most camera experience of the people in my circles). The reason I expect this guy to be better choice for boom op than me (since I don't have many other options), is because he understands how sound works better than anyone else I know. He has a better idea of what something sounds like through his monitoring headphones and how that will sound later, and what can be done to sweeten it. Just like I know when something is poorly exposed, or something won't transfer well to a larger screen. I have a good idea of how to shoot something that I can create a quality edit from because I have experience shooting and editing my own material. That being said he actually understands sound. I don't, not on as much as I think I should anyway. Only on a very basic level.

That being said, if you think this is a bad idea, where can I find an experienced boom op? I don't know if I mentioned my budget before, but I don't really have enough to pay a boom op. I am planning currently just enough for gear, catering, costumes, props and locations. I was banking on not having to pay crew. Maybe I should budget to pay some crew? Currently I'll be doing all the lighting myself, which really means I'll tell a friend of mine where I want the lights moved and what to set them on. My first AC is my girlfriend, her only real job will be to keep track of the camera gear and retrieve lenses/filters when I need them (she has experience doing this with me before). Point is I have a skeleton crew but know that I need good audio more than anything else for this to work.

Suggestions?

I think you'll be okay with the student - if he has the right attitude. And if you can practice during rehearsals. And if you can do re-takes when he says, "I screwed up". (Make sure that he feels comfortable admitting that he was late on a given line.) A super-cardioid is more forgiving than a lobar shotgun, so a less-than-perfect aim won't likely kill your best takes.

The bigger risk might be that he's both mixing and booming. His boom work could be perfect, but if he clips the audio, you're hosed. Hopefully, he can practice before the real fun begins. Make sure you have the tools that let you review the gain levels he's using - and with a good mic and good recorder, feel free to record on the low side for safety.

Personally, I find that live headphone monitoring is great for hearing problems like unwanted sounds, a crackling connection, or no-connection at all. I'm crap at hearing the echo in the environment or being able to hear clipping. The reason is that we hear the headphones as well as the actual sound. No headphones have perfect isolation. Also, with digital, you don't know you've clipped until it's too late.

So good meters are critically important. Use those to get a feel for the correct gain. After that, you can listen to keep things around the same level. But then again, you can't be twiddling the knobs when you're aiming the boom. It needs to be set-and-forget.

One issue that I find is that the actor rehearses the line at one volume, you set the gain, and when the camera rolls, they deliver the line 10 dB hotter. Then you reduce the gain, do another take, and the actor has dissipated their adrenaline and speaks 10 dB colder. Such is life with less experienced actors. (Let's not discuss over-performing stage actors here...)

The other problem is that by not looking at their equipment, the sound person can't ensure that they are "rolling". Make sure you have your "Roll sound (Sound rolling) ...cut" process really refined to avoid this problem. This is especially error prone if you push once for standby and a second time for recording. "Sound rolling" needs to really mean "I double checked the display and it really, really is recording sound."

All that said, it's possible to get good results with a smart, motivated, low experience crew. But it's up to you to have a clearly defined process, train them up, and to confirm that they are doing a good job.

Having the right equipment really helps. Poor equipment demands perfect technique to give a passable result. Great equipment can deliver a very good result with somewhat-good technique.

Jon, thanks. Definitely gives me a boost of confidence in this. I may be able to bring on another person (family or friend) to just monitor levels and whether we are recording or not. That could eliminate the issues with boom op/recordist being one person and it wouldn't be too hard to have them tell me if the bars went into the red, and make sure it says it is recording. That being said, I appreciate all the advice.

There has been a ton of good advice throughout this thread and I really appreciate everyone who took the time to comment! I would greatly appreciate any further advice you can give, but I think all my questions have been answered.

Also, sorry for hijacking this thread, it was originally about when to use a shotgun and when to use a condenser, but I seem to have taken it a bit of course! Thanks for all your patience! Have a great day!

The hijack is worth it if you get a good result. :)

BTW, I once did a series of interviews with a total novice on the recorder - and the results were perfect. The interviews were seated and we used a fixed boom and backup lav, so I didn't need to worry about a boom operator. The sound operator (who sadly passed away last week after a long illness) needed to confirm valid audio, set-and-forget levels, control the transport/record, and notify us of outside noises that might have ruined the take. She wasn't shy about asking for clarity and about telling us about unwanted sounds. And she did everything perfectly. Yes, a pro might have been able to ride the levels to compensate for the subject's volume, but this wasn't really needed. I was able to mix with lots of headroom and a low noise floor in post.

There was only one audio issue on the day. In one setup, we had a long bounce from a wall-sized window. I wish I had hung a moving blanket or duvet from a C-stand to kill that echo.

In fact, consider using blankets and such behind the camera if you are recording in a small, reflective space. This inexpensive fix can really improve the overall sound. Just imagine that you're playing billiards and hang the material to stop sounds from bouncing around from the actor back to the mic. You'll never kill it all, but every bit helps. If you want to really go crazy, buy some 4-inch Corning 703 or 705 panels, wrap them in muslin, and position them where helpful. They absorb frequencies evenly, which is ideal, but blankets get you 80% there for no money out of pocket. This (plus close mic'ing) can really make the difference between an amateur sound with typical suburban home echo and a professional, clean, dry sound. For a documentary, the wet, natural sound is fine. For narrative works, people expect drier audio.