It happens occasionally. A bride finds the idea of paying before receiving her discs to be absurd.

Do I just say 'Thats how it is - standard practice!' and leave it at that.

Or do I explain that the content of the DVD is down to my editorial decisions and that's what I've been hired for. That delaying payment may lead to difficulties if clients don't like 'how i did it'. ??

To me the second one might actually send alarm bells for some ladies who like to have full control...

It may appear like I'm covering my ass rather than inspiring confidence in what I do...

Thoughts?

You could tell them that you had several issues in the past with first delivering to the client but that they didn't pay you at all because they where broke. You can say that as a small business you can't afford going to court each time loosing lot's of time and money which eventually could mean you could go bankrupt. So you could say that you had no other option then to make everyone pay before delivery.

I would simply apologise and say no chance. Why? well because last year a bride divorced her husband 2 months after getting married and then they decided they didn't want the video or any memory of the event any more. And I was stuffed. I can't take such risks.

Nothing worse than carrying out months of editing as well having worked on the wedding days prior to receiving any payment.

You can always do a 3 part payment plan like I do ... deposit / payment prior to wedding and then a final sum when discs are ready for delivery.

Clive?

Your terms and conditions are fixed and your decision. There are plenty of services where you pay up front!!

I simply ask for 1/3rd on booking, 1/3rd two weeks before the wedding and the final 1/3rd BEFORE I deliver the DVD's ..if they don't like it then tough! That's how I work and I have never been questioned about it. If I was questioned I would advise the bride to rather book someone else..if she wants to pay after she decides whether she likes it then you are asking for trouble ...she will give you a million excuses to NOT pay you.

Tell her, those are our terms and conditions and stick by them ..there are plenty more brides out there!!

You are NOT required to justify your payment schedule ..she either accepts it or she doesn't.

Chris

I'm fairly sure it's in my T&Cs which she signed.

I generally believe that if you are open and honest with people it goes a long way - this is how I've worded my draft response.



"Its fairly standard in the industry to get the full payment before the product is delivered. The reason is that clients may hold back and base their decision to pay up on whether they think their video is good or not. And whilst I believe I consistently deliver a quality product, the idea of 'good' is open to a certain amount of interpretation.

My work is important to me, as are the referrals I receive from clients. In such a small country, it doesn't do someone like me any good to deliver a poor product. For this reason I ask clients to trust my ability to deliver a good edit having paid me to do so. My Facebook page has ratings and reviews set up on it - I don't want bad reviews and so that is my motivation. Hopefully this gives you enough confidence!"



Bad idea?

I generally believe that if you are open and honest with people it goes a long way

No! they only won't to here it's all going to be ok, even if you know that might not be the case. If I"m open and honest I"d tell them there is a 1 out 10.000 risk I might get into an accident on the way to their wedding, or get caught up in traffic and come in late, or that I get so sick I can't come at all, or that my camera could fail while I"m shooting or...
Don't tell them anything that will cause any doubt, just say that's your service agreement, if they don't like that, they can go shop somewhere else. If they really want you they will pay upfront.

I get this occasionally and I explain that the product they are purchasing from me has no resale value what so ever elsewhere. No-one is going to buy their wedding video if they default and I am left holding the baby. And so thats why I and most other wedding vendors use the terms and conditions that we do.

Pete

Typically, if someone makes a big deal about paying, that's a red flag to me. It may not be the best match for you. We are paid up front so there are no worries later. I've reserved such date for said wedding instead of a another wedding, so being paid for my services up front is as normal as the wedding day itself.

Again, if someone is making a big deal about paying you, then that's a red flag and you might want to think about it, consider a different opportunity.

Hey Clive

Absolutely not!! You are already being open and honest ..you are telling her "Those are my payment terms" That's being open and honest. You have no reason to offer any explanation to make yourself more honest and more open.

It's a business transaction and those are your terms. End of Story! Like Steven says if she is questioning your payment terms drop her like a hot brick. She will be nothing but trouble. I bet she goes to the video store to get a movie and asks them "Can I pay for this movie only if I like it?"

Chris

It happens occasionally. A bride finds the idea of paying before receiving her discs to be absurd.

Do I just say 'Thats how it is - standard practice!' and leave it at that.

Or do I explain that the content of the DVD is down to my editorial decisions and that's what I've been hired for. That delaying payment may lead to difficulties if clients don't like 'how i did it'. ??

To me the second one might actually send alarm bells for some ladies who like to have full control...

It may appear like I'm covering my ass rather than inspiring confidence in what I do...

Thoughts?

From the rates and services page of my website:

"For weddings and similar projects, final payment is due the day of the event, just like for the other vendors."

So my check is the batch with the planners, the dj's, the baker's, the photographer's, the driver's...

No problems at all since I started doing this.

Just a small update. Bride was happy enough when I told her it had to be on the day. She actually said it was only a question because apparently the photographer doesn't take final payment till she sees her photos.

Thats just dumb on his part.

Bride doesn't appear to be the trouble I feared she may be.

Any photographer that accepts payment once the bride sees the photos is setting themselves up for the epic fail.

I actually ask for all payment upon delivery, no deposit at all, they all do pay cash when they pick up the dvd's (they can watch their film first) or when they can't come they first pay me through banktransfer and once I see the money on my account I send everything.
Been doing this the past 5 year or so and never had a couple that didn't want to pay.

Years ago, I had a couple that disappeared on me, after the wedding never responded to me again. I spent the better part of a year waiting for them, calling and emailing them that their wedding was ready. No response. Eventually I reached out to the mom and sent her the package, but never received an explanation of where the couple was.

So Noa, you're a brave man. My advice to new folks, get paid up front, it makes things easier.

The thing is I don't want to end up owing a lot of couples their deposit if I can't shoot their wedding, I had to forfait a wedding today because of backproblems, that's just one but because I have a history of back injuries in the worst case I could be out for a much longer time, as I usually invest a lot of money back into my company I want to make sure that once I spend it that the client has received their goods and is satisfied. I sleep better that way :).

Like Noa, I take no deposit and full payment on delivery (with contractual protection). I don't get hassled for delivery as they know I don't get paid until I deliver and it has worked well for 30 years

Roger

But how do you guys avoid them making an excuse to go elsewhere with a cheaper videographer?

Roger, I'd be interested to know how your contract is worded to protect you without any money changing hands. Does it not have to be very descriptive of the product they expect. A disgruntled client sure could argue you didn't do it 'like they wanted' and void the contract?

Hi Roger and Noa

That really doesn't give you any protection if they pull out of the shoot even a few days to go and you have no compensation. What happens too, if they decide they cannot pay you after the wedding? All that time and not a penny to show for it!

I recently had a bride who had already booked the photog with a tiny deposit and after seeing our combined video/photo packages she decided to dump the photog and use us for both services. Now, if she had already paid the photog a healthy deposit she would have been less likely to switch!!

My photog mate only takes $100 deposit so often will lose brides. I feel that 1/3rd on booking is substantial enough to deter the bride from switching providers and a second 1/3rd 2 weeks before ensures that if she defaults I still have 2/3rd of the price. The "final 1/3rd when your DVD's are ready" provides just enough incentive for the bride to book you over a guy who wants it all up front!

The safest option is still a substantial deposit on booking and full payment before/on the day.

Chris

Everyone has their own business model and uses what works for them however I can tell you that in all of my years of doing weddings and other social type events, mitzvahs, sweet 16's, anniversaries, retirement partys etc I found not only is it common and standard practice here in my area to get 50% upon signing a service agreement or contract but standard practice to receive the balance prior to the date of the event. The exact amount of time differs but it generally runs anywhere from 14 to 30 days prior and this isn't just for photogs and video but venues and DJs and bands and virtually every other vendor that is needed to put on a function. Again I'm talking about SOCIAL functions not seminars or trade shows or commericals or most other types of non-social event work.
Once in a while the client (generally a bride) might moan and groan about paying in advance and of course they generally say something like "how do I know you're going to show up" to which I would reply, "I've been in business for XX number of years. Do you think for 1 second I would still be in business if I went around screwing clients by not showing?" That always seemed to end the conversation.
I got burned 2 times back in the day and as they (whoever they are) say, "Burn me once shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me" I learned my lesson and started making sure I got paid BEFORE I showed up and I had terms and conditions in my service agreement to cover that and I made sure people understood them.
I'm in (was in) business to make a profit and provide for my family and sometimes in business, you just have to make hard decisions.
TBH though, I love NOT being in business. I don't miss the mental beating, the physical beating or having to run around like a chicken with my head cut off. Retirement fits me well. Anyway, get paid for what you do, you'll enjoy it more! ;-)

Like Don, I have filmed well pver 2000 weddings over 30 years, but my business model is totally different, so there os no right or wrong way of doing it.

My clients don't book me and then decide to book a cheaper videographer at the last minute because firstly they have cpme back to book me after a comprehensive discussion and viewing with me. That gives them the opportunity to look at alternative companies to see what else is available. If they book me it is because they like my work and my price after looking at examples and at the alternatives. As my wedding videos are pretty consistent in quality, they would have great difficulty proving that their's didn't meet expectations.

Secondly there is a very simple and enequivocal contract which guarantees that the work that I do for them will be equal to work they have seen in demonstration viewing. That's why I show genuine weddings and not a put together demo. The contract also states that I will not be responsible for events or situations outside my control, but will endeavour to point out potential problems to my client. that would cover weather, positioning, lighting, unreasonable demands etc.

Financially, I have cancellation penalties depending on how far in advance they wish to cancel. I recently had a cancellation 6 weeks before the wedding as they had split up, they sent me a cancellation letter plus full payment to honour their contract. Clients have to pay me on completion, which means that I normally ring them to arrange delivery and collect payment. If they delay delivery, I will allow them up to 7 days to arrange the delivery or send me full payment. If they still delay or stall payment, then I will invoke a penalty clause which will involve a weekly percentage interest payment added to the bill, from the date of original completion. This means that the interest will be more each week that it is applied. I have only threatened that 3 times and received full payment within a few days on each occasion. The final option would be legal action which would cost them the original fee plus interest plus costs. I've never had to do that, although I have had a couple who suffered a genuine massive financial setback after their wedding and immediately told me about it. We sat down and discussed the situation and they made an offer to pay on a weekly basis until the the full payment had been paid, with me retaining the video until completion. They kept absolutely to the agreement and even bought us wine and chocolates with a lovely thankyou card on final completion. We also had 3 further bookings over the next 12 months from their direct recommendation.

As I said previously, it works well for me so why change it :-)

Roger

As most of my bookings are from referrals, they already know the drill. That is the entire amount must be paid BEFORE the event date, no exceptions. I have a dedicated shelf area near my editing desk that has exactly 12 weddings in fully edited VHS, that act as a reminder to the clients that those represent unpaid balances totaling more than 8 thousand dollars that were never picked up. In case that argument pops up. Whatever their reason/excuse/mishaps/problems/divorced, death(s)/job loss/ etc. etc., I am still short 8 thousand. Those were the days when I was soft and lenient allowing that sort of thing. If a client wants to pay later, no problem. They can go across the street to the ATM machine and take out the cash now, pay me and make those credit card payments LATER by the month.

Hi Arthur

Let's face it ... there is absolutely no value in a bunch of DVD cases if you cannot get paid for them. My only difference is they pay me the final 1/3rd of the price when the DVD's are ready ..note I say "ready" ..if the final amount is not in my account I simply don't deliver ! With 2/3rd's in my pocket already I have never yet had a bride not cough up the final amount as it would be their loss.

I learnt my lesson and just once delivered a DVD set prior to the final payment and of course, the bride never paid ..in those days it was only a small amount but after that it was "no payment, no delivery"

Never had a problem since and that was a LONG time ago!!

Chris

As a DJ/MC, I'm always paid before I start, since I have no value once the event is over.

For videography, I understand if someone prefers to wait until afterwards, but I would still insist on having a fair amount paid already. For me, it's enough to cover expenses. The idea being, even if they back out, at least you haven't paid out of pocket.

But how do you guys avoid them making an excuse to go elsewhere with a cheaper videographer?

They will find plenty cheaper videographers in my region but none of them is better then me :) Couples choose me for a reason and the ones that do pick me have the budget.

Once in a while the client (generally a bride) might moan and groan about paying in advance and of course they generally say something like "how do I know you're going to show up" to which I would reply, "I've been in business for XX number of years. Do you think for 1 second I would still be in business if I went around screwing clients by not showing?" That always seemed to end the conversation.

The client has a valid argument, there is no way you can guarantee on paper you will be shooting their wedding, you can guarantee someone will be shooting their wedding if you would find a replacement if you couldn't come, since you have managed to show up at all times you have been lucky, it's that simple.
You could get in a car accident with major injuries, get seriously sick and by sick I mean hospitalised, even your gear could stop working, get damaged during a job or whatever, a lot of things could go wrong.

By asking a deposit means mostly we don't trust them for not getting married or to choose another videographer, the same argument they have for us maybe not showing up, so I think it's a fair question from the client.

lol Noa, most brides read those in our terms and agreements. But NEVER think it will happen to them. I'm referring to the camera failing / accidents / injuries etc. It's their day, and their day will go perfectly that's the bottom line in their minds.

I have been asked that question what guarantee I can give that I will show up, I always tell them that guarantee will cost them 500 euro extra to hire a second equally experienced cameraman, then they are always willing to take the risc :), I tell them that in the worst case scenario (like I had last wedding as I had to forfeit that one due to back problems), is that I will do whatever I can to get a replacement for them but if they want guarantees that what I show them as demo will get delivered no matter what, it will cost them extra.

By asking a deposit means mostly we don't trust them for not getting married or to choose another videographer, the same argument they have for us maybe not showing up, so I think it's a fair question from the client.

Indeed. Though a wedding date, for us, has value. Especially for popular times of year, the closer to the date, the less value it has IF the client were to cancel on us, since our chance of rebooking approaches zero. That's why deposits are important, and similarly why we do a payment schedule (25% payments each 3, 6, and 9 months out). If they cancel, we're not left holding the bag.

Whether that means we *should* get 100% before starting, is another question.

When we started, we did 25% to hold date and remainder on Delivery. That worked ok, but we did get burned 2 or 3 times.

Back then we didn't charge anywhere near what we do today.

I switched to 100% due before the wedding about 5 years ago and haven't had anyone blink an eye about it. Around here, every vendor I know gets paid in full up front. In fact, back when I told other vendors I didn't get paid until after, they all thought I was crazy. So that factored into my change. Lol

Anyways, most people I've found are glad to pay everything upfront, as they don't have to worry about it later.

Virtually none of my weddings are booked far in advance. They're usually less than 3 months before the wedding. I don't really do payment plans. 50% at booking and 50% 1 week before the wedding. Or 100% at booking.

If someone were to be concerned about paying in full or showing up, I'd explain that I have a lot of expenses that must be paid out and I've been doing this almost 15 years and have people raving about my videos online. So why wouldn't I show up?

I like Roger's attitude - very similar to my commercial clients. I've always wondered how wedding video people get away with contracts stacked totally in their favour - if there is a dispute, courts now use the reasonable contract terms rulings to decide if the contract is fair and valid. Not sure if I read it right, but even giving deposits back if you let the wedding couple down seem something the wedding people find difficult?

The point of a contract is to set up the entire deal in a way that everything is clear. Paying up front for a product that has not yet been produced is fine, and for one party, excellent - but the point made many times seems to be that this is done because frequently the clients don't like the finished product, and the contract stops them complaining? Roger promises them a decent product, at least as good as others he shows them, and they promise to pay the bill. Obviously, there are potential problems - they can scrap the wedding, they can split up etc etc - but that presumably is a risk of doing business. I'm forever amazed that the clients accept these terms - especially with extended delivery dates being common too. Paying a deposit, and the balance on completion is how many successful business models work - the risk is shared. With weddings, the common model seems to be no risk whatsoever to the video business, and if they cancel at the last minute - tough.

I wonder if a last minute cancellation to a pre-paid wedding shoot by the video business would warrant compensation in court? If you wreck a wedding you have accepted full payment for, then I'd expect the judge to order full refund plus compensation. If a deposit, or no deposit had been charged, then less?

Quite interesting - maybe too much emotional input from the client prevents business like procedures? It's a great model, though - 100% stacked to the benefit of the business not the client.

i do requiere at least 2 payments before the event and 1 after the event when work is ready to pick up. Each payment is of equal value. If they pay in full after the event i would include 20 more minutes of the reception or do interviews after the formals.

The point of a contract is to set up the entire deal in a way that everything is clear. Paying up front for a product that has not yet been produced is fine, and for one party, excellent - but the point made many times seems to be that this is done because frequently the clients don't like the finished product, and the contract stops them complaining? Roger promises them a decent product, at least as good as others he shows them, and they promise to pay the bill. Obviously, there are potential problems - they can scrap the wedding, they can split up etc etc - but that presumably is a risk of doing business. I'm forever amazed that the clients accept these terms - especially with extended delivery dates being common too. Paying a deposit, and the balance on completion is how many successful business models work - the risk is shared. With weddings, the common model seems to be no risk whatsoever to the video business, and if they cancel at the last minute - tough.

I wonder if a last minute cancellation to a pre-paid wedding shoot by the video business would warrant compensation in court? If you wreck a wedding you have accepted full payment for, then I'd expect the judge to order full refund plus compensation. If a deposit, or no deposit had been charged, then less?

Quite interesting - maybe too much emotional input from the client prevents business like procedures? It's a great model, though - 100% stacked to the benefit of the business not the client.
It's the standard business model throughout the wedding industry & not restricted to videographers or photographers. Whether they are florists, DJs, cake makers, venues etc they all insist on payment up front. There may be odd individual exceptions with any of the suppliers but the vast majority of florists, DJs, cake makers, venues etc will insist on payment in full before the event.

I don't see that a couple would have any case for compensation if a videographer or photographer couldn't make it. How would that ruin the wedding? If the guests all turned up to find the venue closed then that would certainly ruin the wedding but not having a video would at most be a disappointment but if the couple got back their advance payment I cannot see that they would be entitled to any more. The DJ not turning up would be more of a disappointment or even the cake not being delivered but a videographer plays no part in the wedding in fact many boast about how inconspicuous they are on the day.

Why would a videographer not being at the wedding ruin the wedding? All we're doing is documenting the memories right? ...

I recently read an article some one linked to via facebook. In India a wedding DJ had his life beaten out of him due to not playing a requested song by a drunken guest. And some other indian lads followed up in the comments section saying videographers/photographers etc are looked down on over there, pushed and shoved by family and treated like dirt.

So with that being said ... I highly doubt the world revolves around us and our service. I'm yet to experience a client that tells me that my service is what made their day special.

It's funny how brides try this with videographers/photographers. I wonder if they try this with the wedding venues. "Can we pay once we have had our ceremony and reception?"

A venue would of course have to pay out for staff, food, electricity and various other items, all of which would be paid whether the couple pay up or not, so I think quite reasonable to insist on payment up front. Many other wedding businesses also have to invest money in each booking, so also can expect up front payment.

Only a small number of the wedding services are just putting in time without up front costs involved, ie videography, photography, DJ and car hire. Payment in advance is a personal choice for those suppliers, but can't be classed as payment for pre wedding costs. Most of these suppliers use prepayment as security for the booking but it is a matter of preference rather than necessity.

Roger

It's funny how brides try this with videographers/photographers. I wonder if they try this with the wedding venues. "Can we pay once we have had our ceremony and reception?"

There is also another way of looking at this, as a bride once told me.

• With the venue they usually get the chance to sample the food and menu they will be getting, it's part of choosing the menu for the day. They also get the chance to see the venue dressed, either through photos or when attending wedding fairs. So they know exactly what they are getting in advance.

• With flowers they can often see a sample bouquet, button holes etc, so again they can see in advance.

• With the wedding car they can sit in it, often choosing one car over the other because of how a specific car makes them feel, but in any case they can see the finished product before they even book it, let alone pay for it.

With Photo and Video it's different. They can see what you did for other people, they can see other people's weddings, sometimes at the same venue, sometimes not, but what ever they are seeing, it's not 'exactly' what they will get since every wedding is unique.

I am quite sure I could have got even more booking by saying 'pay me after the wedding', but I know two photographers and one videographer that did jobs and never got paid. Whether you choose to take that risk and perhaps amortise that loss over the other weddings you do is entirely up to you. I chose not to and always required payment two weeks prior to the wedding. If a bride didn't like it, I offered that they could pay using their credit card which would have given them some protection through the card company. That always seemed to give them the comfort they were looking for, plus they got their card points or cash back or what ever deal they have with the card company which always helped the sale.

Hey Dave

I guess we could do a sample shoot for them and then cost it into the package and then they pay once they have seen the result. Then again if you show them a recent wedding it does confirm that you can shoot a wedding and it is much like a venue sample menu ... who says the food you taste prior to booking will be as good as the food on the day? You might have a less competent chef on the day?

It's the same scenario with a videographer choosing his very best sample to show them prior to booking ..it might have been perfect weather, a perfect venue and an extremely photogenic couple and even different cameras!!! Let's face it some weddings do come out a LOT better than others and it's not even our fault ... the priest wanders off to a far corner so your audio sucks, the light is bad etc etc I still prefer the couple to sample at least my last 3 weddings so they know they are current shoots and it's a closer representation of what their's will look like ... it better than showing off a perfect wedding and then they come back and say "Ours looks nothing like your sample"

Chris

I`ve covered over 500 weddings since I started in `88 although after the last couple I no longer do weddings (Chav wedding with 15 speeches) nightmare!!!
My terms were always a "Booking Fee" at the time of booking & full payment 7 days before. I use the term "Booking" as in English law a "Deposit" can be made to be refunded! The client is "Booking" the date & is non-refundable, therefore if for whatever reason they cancel then the "Booking Fee" is forfeit! I have however made a couple of exceptions over the years following the death for example of one of the parents when the wedding was re-arranged.
My couples have always accepted that these are my terms & many have booked me through recommendations.
Thankfully now, I`ve seen the light & stopped covering weddings :-)

My terms were always a "Booking Fee"

We've always used the term "Retainer" which seems to have the same result.

Thankfully now, I`ve seen the light & stopped covering weddings :-)

Ditto. I shot my (hopefully) last wedding video in September (booked 18 months ago) and don't plan on doing any more. I lost count of how many hundreds we've shot, but I think it's 'enough' :) I've been much happier shooting other things lately.

It's the same scenario with a videographer choosing his very best sample to show them prior to booking ..it might have been perfect weather, a perfect venue and an extremely photogenic couple and even different cameras!!! Let's face it some weddings do come out a LOT better than others and it's not even our fault ... the priest wanders off to a far corner so your audio sucks, the light is bad etc etc I still prefer the couple to sample at least my last 3 weddings so they know they are current shoots and it's a closer representation of what their's will look like ... it better than showing off a perfect wedding and then they come back and say "Ours looks nothing like your sample"

Chris

I totally agree with you Chris, I always take along a selection of recent weddings for them to look at as much or as little as they want of a real wedding, complete with obese brides and torrential rain if that was the recent scenario. Like that, they know exactly what to expect without trying to push an idyllic and untypical demo. More importantly though, they can see how you handle difficult or unexpected circumstances.

Roger

Hi Roger

Yep, I would MUCH rather lose a bride booking than gain an order that I know won't make her happy!

I think the comment I usually use is "so there are no nasty surprises when you deliver the video"

BTW: Keep us up to date about using your quad gimbal as a handheld "stedicam" .... I need to dump my big rig now. Getting way too old to carry all that weight

Chris

Hi Chris, the quad gimbal steadycam will most likely be a Winter project as we are still doing some weddings and the school play season will also be on us in a few weeks. Will report on any progress though.

Roger