View Full Version : Lighting and Audio: £1000 ($1600) - What do you do?!


Craig McKenna
May 29th, 2014, 10:40 AM
Hi All,

I recently made a thread about buying a Cinevate Duzi slider and a tripod to go with it for £500.

Since then, I've shot my first wedding, edited it down to one song in length and delivered the product on a custom USB stick within a custom wooden box, along with 12 DVDs that are professionally printed and edited using PhotoShop.

This experience has been an amazing one... so much so, that I've offered my services for free in the summer, so that I can shoot alongside two amazing photographers, who were eternally helpful to me on the day of the shoot. They've kindly offered to email their clients about my offer and I hope to fill 4 slots in the month of August - during my weeks off work.

Potentially, this is my future. Once I have the experience and KNOW that I can deliver, then I think it's game time.

That said, my equipment is weak. I have a Panasonic GH3, Panasonic X800, Olympus OM-D EM5 and will soon have a Panasonic GH4 - paid for, but currently out of stock. Obviously, my hope is to shoot alone with the GH3 and GH4, with the X800/EM5 as back up. Cameras are covered.

Lenses are sort of covered - 12 f2, 25 f1.4, 45 f1.8, 75 f1.8 - although I would love to add the 12-35 f2.8 and 35-100 f2.8, along with the 42.5 f1.2 - but they're not necessities yet.

Legs are almost covered - I have a Sachtler Ace that was recommended in said earlier thread - and I'm thinking of adding a second one to my kit soon. Along with the Manfrotto video monopod.

Following this, I wish to invest in lighting and audio. Audio because I shot using on-camera audio for the ceremony and it was AWFUL! I had warned the bride in advance, but she refused to use mics for the ceremony. Following 4 hours of fixing the audio in the ceremony, I will never agree to shooting a ceremony again without mics. The speeches were fine - using two DR07 MKII's from Tascam, but even they suffered with interference from mobile phones - fortunately, I was able to switch between each recorder when the d-d-d-d occurred and match the audio as best as I could.

Ultimately, I've learned a thousand lessons from my first outing. Focus being a second major focus of mine for future shoots, along with white balance - staying away from auto?!

Since, I've considered a grey card (but don't know which one to get?) and wireless or wired microphones with recorders. I've looked at the Sennheiser wireless ones... but ultimately, I'm clueless when it comes to audio.

So, my questions are as follows:

If you had two DR07 MKIIs for audio, with two tabletop stands to go with them, but no other equipment for audio - and zero pieces of equipment for video - where would you invest your money and why?

Thanks for all of the help in advance!

Peter Riding
May 29th, 2014, 11:31 AM
The audio dept is a lot easier and simpler to kit up with than it might appear.

As you know the audio from onboard cams is often next to useless except for syncing in post to the audio tracks you are actually going to use.

Many of us use recorders similar to your Tascams and simply place them in close proximity to the audio source, be that a lectern in a church, hidden in flower arrangements, on a stand next to a PA speaker, etc. Use combinations of mini tabletop stands and friction arms (search ebay for these).

If you need to use one in a clients pocket you ideally need something rather smaller. The Zoom H1 works. Some users use cheaper audio recorders designed for note-taking etc. These are OK as you don't need as good a capability for speech as you want for music. The Zooms do WAV rather than just MP3 so you have more data to push around in post if necessary.

You need 4 recorders e.g. 1 for each of the groom the best man and the father of the bride on the top table, and one for luck.

There are lots of affordable lavs around that are fine for wedding work. Lavs from Giant Squid are a popular choice. You can specify the colour and the cable length when you order.

Sooner or later you will want to go the wireless route. Get the Sennheiser G3 system (not G2 or G1) and in the 606 to 614 band. Its a great relief to be able to monitor and adjust the levels in an unpredictable recording scenario. These are expensive brand new. You can pick up used on ebay for around £380 - £420 per kit of transmitter, receiver, lav (ensure its the ME2 omnidirectional lav NOT an ME4 cardioid lav), XLR cable, 3.5mm cable, and hotshoe adapter. Get one as soon as you can to start getting used to it; You'll probably use it straight away on the groom and as a link from the DJs board in the evening for the 1st dance etc (phono cable from board to G3 transmitter, possibly with a pad cable in between to cut down if its too hot rather than adjusting the G3 transmitter from its earier in the day speech settings).

Also budget for Plural Eyes to automatically sync multiple video and audio sources in post. Plural Eyes is free with some audio products from time to time.

If you run several G3's you'll want these going into separate recorder(s) - I prefer to go into a recorder anyway rather than into a cam as then you know you have one big continuous audio track rather than multiple shorter tracks where you've switched cam recording on and off. I use the Zoom H4n (2 x XLR & 1 x 3.5mm) but now I'd be looking at the Zoom H6.

Pete

Craig McKenna
May 29th, 2014, 11:47 AM
The audio dept is a lot easier and simpler to kit up with than it might appear.

It definitely appears tiresome and confusing! And now I have so much respect for audio that I want the best!

As you know the audio from onboard cams is often next to useless except for syncing in post to the audio tracks you are actually going to use.

Many of us use recorders similar to your Tascams and simply place them in close proximity to the audio source, be that a lectern in a church, hidden in flower arrangements, on a stand next to a PA speaker, etc. Use combinations of mini tabletop stands and friction arms (search ebay for these).

Thanks for this, it's a relief to know that the Tascams are always going to have their place. The audio I captured was similar - on two different sides of the wedding table - and the other time, beneath a chair with a polite reminder to guests during an impromptu speech from the father of the groom the night before the wedding.

Out of interest, is there a way to monitor the sound captured by these? As it was still very much hit and hope... I set it to around 70 on the levels and I captured everything well; but is the d-d-d-d unavoidable from mobile phones? Have you experienced it yourself?

If you need to use one in a clients pocket you ideally need something rather smaller. The Zoom H1 works. Some users use cheaper audio recorders designed for note-taking etc. These are OK as you don't need as good a capability for speech as you want for music. The Zooms do WAV rather than just MP3 so you have more data to push around in post if necessary.

The H1 makes itself instantly more attractive with the ability to record WAV. I definitely think audio - like stills - need a lot of data to push around incase something should occur.

You need 4 recorders e.g. 1 for each of the groom the best man and the father of the bride on the top table, and one for luck.

There are lots of affordable lavs around that are fine for wedding work. Lavs from Giant Squid are a popular choice. You can specify the colour and the cable length when you order.

This sounds great, as lavs from R0de etc seem to stem £150 each... do you really capture crisp sound with Giant Squid equivalents, or is it just an unnoticeable difference?

Sooner or later you will want to go the wireless route. Get the Sennheiser G3 system (not G2 or G1) and in the 606 to 614 band. Its a great relief to be able to monitor and adjust the levels in an unpredictable recording scenario. These are expensive brand new. You can pick up used on ebay for around £380 - £420 per kit of transmitter, receiver, lav (ensure its the ME2 omnidirectional lav NOT an ME4 cardioid lav), XLR cable, 3.5mm cable, and hotshoe adapter. Get one as soon as you can to start getting used to it; You'll probably use it straight away on the groom and as a link from the DJs board in the evening for the 1st dance etc (phono cable from board to G3 transmitter, possibly with a pad cable in between to cut down if its too hot rather than adjusting the G3 transmitter from its earier in the day speech settings).

Sounds amazing... definitely... can you alter anything once you realise something is wrong? And do you monitor from the audio socket on your camera considering the receiver slots on top of the DSLR?

I'm happy to buy brand new... I know that it's more expensive, but the awareness that it should be in better condition is a relief to me. I don't quite understand what a pad cable is - but I'll do some research and perhaps start out with the G3 if it's the way to go eventually. How many mics can you sync up???

For each G3 kit, will I be able to sync one mic and then need to buy another kit or?

Also budget for Plural Eyes to automatically sync multiple video and audio sources in post. Plural Eyes is free with some audio products from time to time.

You can get Plural Eyes for free sometimes?! Doh... I would have searched around for that... fortunately, I'm a teacher so I was able to get the Education discount - but I did use it to sync up two cameras and audio from my two recorders in my first wedding - such an amazing piece of software!!!

If you run several G3's you'll want these going into separate recorder(s) - I prefer to go into a recorder anyway rather than into a cam as then you know you have one big continuous audio track rather than multiple shorter tracks where you've switched cam recording on and off. I use the Zoom H4n (2 x XLR & 1 x 3.5mm) but now I'd be looking at the Zoom H6.

Pete

I feel like I'm confused (as usual). Is there a place that I could learn more about this, without bugging you about it?

Thanks Pete!!! So helpful, as always!!!

I love your job!!! It might sound like a noob thing to say, but all of the equipment that goes into making a great video is exciting... if a little daunting. Nailing a video is the best feeling though!

Adrian Tan
May 29th, 2014, 02:34 PM
If you had two DR07 MKIIs for audio, with two tabletop stands to go with them, but no other equipment for audio - and zero pieces of equipment for video - where would you invest your money and why?

1. Cables for plugging into sound systems.
2. Some sort of lav mic for clean sound during vows. Probably x2 so you can pick up priest as well.
3. If wanted to invest in lighting as well, frankly most eBay LEDs would do the trick. Look for ones that are dimmable.

Craig McKenna
May 30th, 2014, 03:19 AM
1. Cables for plugging into sound systems.
2. Some sort of lav mic for clean sound during vows. Probably x2 so you can pick up priest as well.
3. If wanted to invest in lighting as well, frankly most eBay LEDs would do the trick. Look for ones that are dimmable.

Do you just buy a light stand for the video lights?

When I watched Ray Roman and Rob Adams' cinematography courses, they talked about the importance of light... but in reality, it seems like most people ignore them and shoot high ISO?

Accurate or a misconception?

The only thing that puts me off using a video light is annoying the photographers.

Adrian Tan
May 30th, 2014, 03:50 AM
Do most people shoot high ISO? Yes, including me. Whether people ought to be... Well, maybe that's a long discussion in itself. But one thing about Adams and Roman is that they're prepared to use fast primes and shoot wide open. So they're not going to need a whole lot of light at f/1.2 to avoid shooting above 1250 ISO. They also use lights with a lot of throw -- so Roman uses a dedolight and Adams uses a fresnel or whatever. And if something is shining on you from far away, it's less distracting, which is the main negative about lights.

Re light stand, if you're using LEDs, you can get away with really cheap plastic (and compact and light) eBay ones. $10-$20. I usually carry two lights, for fill and backlight, or to double up from one direction if I need the extra light (eg lowering contrast between bridal dress hung against window and outside world).

Re annoying the photographer, to be honest most photographers like video lights. In my experience anyway. A lot of them use video lights themselves. They like having backlight/lens flare during the dancing, same as videographers, they like using low ISO for low-noise images as much as possible, same as videographers, and the good ones prefer off-camera lighting to avoid flattening all the shadows, same as videographers.

They can get away with higher ISO than videographers, or I think so anyway. But doesn't mean they like it.

Peter Rush
May 30th, 2014, 04:04 AM
I agree - togs like a few continuous LED lights around the dance floor for first dance. Regarding lav mics I've started to use these - great price and (IMO) they sound as good as my ME-2 - Come with spare foam and tie-clips - very well made

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pronomic-LA-30-Lavalier-Microphone-Universal/dp/B004EA0D0O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1401444320&sr=8-4&keywords=pronomic

For micing the groom for the ceremony I find the H1 too bulky - and so might he in his jacket pocket. I much prefer my slimmer Olympus WM311 (now discontinued) but they do drift a little which will need correcting in post.

Pete

Peter Riding
May 30th, 2014, 04:41 AM
You can learn a lot just by regular visits to the threads and stickies in the audio rooms on this forum and on DVX user:

All Things Audio Forum at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/)

Location Sound / Post Audio (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?29-Location-Sound-Post-Audio)

Richard Crowley posted some tutorials on audio recently:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/523408-video-series-microphone-fundamentals.html

In addition there are many useful tutorials in the “Learning Lab” series such as this one on the Sennheiser G3 wireless system:

https://vimeo.com/channels/rulelearninglabseries/22401329

However be aware that the recommendations lectures advice tips and tricks etc are only relevant up to a point for weddings. Thats because many contributors work in environments in which they have access to a multitude of good gear and assistants combined with none of the pressures of weddings. Its perfectly straightforward for them to monitor everything and to do retakes, all the while not needing to be concerned about how their physical presence and actions may compromise the ambience of the wedding. If they had their way they'd all have a boom operator inches from every bride :- )

Shooting weddings always has to be a compromise. Sometimes you don't really want perfect audio because that will show up other parts where you simply couldn't achieve great results. For example you might have a £500 lav mic on the groom six inches from his mouth – great; but then the bride is going to be a metre away from the lav so you take an immediate hit – good luck trying to lav up most brides! And in a civil ceremony most celebrants are going to be females – again good luck trying to lav them up! They are going to be a good two metres from the lav, even further at some points, so you take an even bigger hit. The certificate will be presented by the other staff member – the registrar – at the end so thats another talent you ought to lav up but can't. There may also be 2 or 3 readings during the ceremony each of which ought to be lav'd. Even if you could lav them all you are unlikely to have enough time once they've arrived just before the ceremony. Thats why Zoom H1's hidden in flowers or friction-clamped to nearby fixtures and fittings can be a preferred option. If you cannot get a hidden recorder near enough then you really do need to lav the groom and make the best of it. A free program called The Levelator can work wonders and save you shedloads of time – you just drop in the audio file and use the result which is suffixed “output”.

Its also good practice to have a shotgun mic at the ready on your main manned cam so that you can at least get some half decent audio from several feet away at times when the talent moves to the “wrong” place etc. I use a Rode NTG2. This mic does not require phantom power to make it work if you insert an AA battery so it is widely usable.

Weddings are all about speech not music and so you don't need the capabilities of high-end lavs – that would be wasteful.

Nearly all DJ boards have spare “phono” sockets and all you need to connect to an audio recorder or to a Sennheiser transmitter is a phono cable comprising white and red terminals like this:

Fisual Install Series 2 x Phono to 2 x Phono Cable - 1m: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fisual-Install-Series-Phono-Cable/dp/B0013LRJWC/ref=tag_stp_s2_edpp_url)

Fit a phono to 3.5mm stereo conversion plug at one end or get a phono cable that terminates with one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Phono-Female-3-5mm-Audio-Adapter/dp/B000Q8FEQQ/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1401444919&sr=1-4&keywords=phono+to+3.5mm

There are often multiple phono sockets on DJ boards and you may not get the DJ speaking in addition to the music so check that with headphones if it matters. Buds are fine for that – and small :- )

Pad cables reduce the signal strength from the board – which otherwise may be too hot even with very low levels set on your audio recorder. You just add one inline using connectors like this if necessary:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Earphone-Coupler-Extender-Cable-Mountain/dp/B002GXN2MM/ref=tag_stp_s2_edpp_url

Pad cables are available from Pinknoise Systems. The new Zoom H6 has a pad cable equivalent feature built in.

If you mount a Sennheiser G3 receiver to you cams hotshoe it can be difficult to monitor its own levels etc. Instead attach it to a small ball head with dual nuts like this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kaavie-Screw-Flash-Trigger-Microphone/dp/B004KIVTQ2/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1401445272&sr=1-4&keywords=kaavie

then you can swing it to a suitable direction. Wireless gear is supposed to sit upright for best reception but with the G3's in wedding venues that is irrelevant as you are not asking that much of it.

I prefer to mount up to 3 G3 receivers and my H4n on a modified T-bar (two combined) clamped to a tripod leg. T-bars:

Dual Twin 1 4" Standard Screw Bar Bracket for Flash F V Z96 LED Lights AU22 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-Twin-1-4-Standard-Screw-Bar-Bracket-For-Flash-F-V-Z96-LED-lights-AU22-/271497109282?pt=UK_Photography_Microphones&hash=item3f367d1f22)

but sometimes I have 2 G3's going straight into my main video cam secured in its hotshoe using a ball head and single t-bar.

A lot of pre-owned G3 equipment is in very good shape – people just buy it thinking they will use it but don't. Buy from someone with a good longstanding feedback though as there have been fakes around (some fakes are reported to work perfectly well!).

I always monitor audio using the various devices and cams LCD displays as its impractical for me to use headphones (I shoot video and stills simultaneously and work alone). The G3 transmitters and receivers seldom need to be adjusted once you've found the optimum settings for wedding audio – I just tweak using the levels on the actual recorders. n.b. I use a pad cable to the transmitter rather than changing its settings if the music from the board is too hot.

I've never ever had interference from phones or anything else. Maybe thats a “feature” of that Tascam model?

You are unlikely to be allowed to use LED lights in ceremonies, nor would it be desirable. Not really desirable for the speeches either as it kills the ambience. The main problem time would be the 1st dance. Often you can get the venue to have the room lights a bit higher than otherwise just for the 1st dance – they often will turn them up for the speeches as well if you just ask.

Don't shoot low apertures just because you can or think that it what everyone wants. Stills photographers have already been there and come out the other side but many videographers seem to think its the only show in town. I shot quite a bit of yesterdays wedding (I was doing still only) at f8 to ensure that the surroundings as well as the subjects were readily viewable. Quite a bit of f1.2 is just pug-ugly :- ) My clients are bigshots in the advertising and design world and there were several advertising and art director types among the guests. I had my Canon f1.2L with me but just for “insurance”.

You won't love our job quite so much once you've had a few not go to plan :- )

Pete

Noa Put
May 30th, 2014, 05:51 AM
In a church I have a yamaha c24 in the grooms pocket (discontinued now) with a lav for the groom and brides vows, depending how large the church is it can happen that you have to gain up the brides voice considerably but it's still better then the onboard cameramike. I use a tascam dr05 in front of a church soundspeaker as backup, here it also depends on the soundspeaker quality but this is your most important backup as it will capture anything that is being said in a mike which could be from 2 different lecterns, the altar and with a wireless handmike. This alone covers your basics.

Only if time allows (I often have only 5 minutes to set all up in church) I will add a zoom h1 with a lav, a sony icd-px312 with a lav to the lectern and altar and if there is live singing I"ll connect my tascam dr40 to their soundsystem if this is possible, otherwise I just use a lightstand and place the zoom h4 in front of their soundspeaker.

During the evening part I velcrotape the yamaha c24 onto the handmicrophones handle and if possible connect my tascam dr40 to the soundsystem, if that is not possible I just put the dr40 on a lightstand in front of the soundspeaker as backup.

I like the zoom h1 a lot as it's auto level recording is quite good, my tascam dr05 is much more aggressive in adjusting gain when there are moments of silence which is why I manually set levels on that recorder now, the zoom h1 is much better at that, also my yamaha c24 is also very good at auto levels, both recorders are always set to auto as I rather have to adjust my levels a bit in post then to have clipped audio as you cannot recover that anymore.

I have thought about getting a small wireless system (I have a big azden wireless system that I only use for speeches) but if your audio would fail during a ceremony you can't do anything about it anyway, you only will hear it fail but you can't tell a priest "can you pls stop the ceremony while I exchange my audio recorder?" :)

Peter Rush
May 30th, 2014, 06:51 AM
That's exactly why I don't use wireless Noa - I used an Azden system many moons ago but it suffered from random interference so put me off. There's nothing you could do during the ceremony anyway - a few years ago the groom got a hanky out of his jacket pocket during the ceremony and in the process knocked off his lav mic which he (for some odd reason) then put into his inner jacket pocket along with his hanky rendering it useless - thank god I had good audio from my speaker mic :)

Peter Riding
May 30th, 2014, 07:18 AM
Sometimes I go for long periods without using my wireless systems but I do like the ability to change the levels in the receiving recorder mid-ceremony if the talent has a booming or a mousy voice - something you cannot do if your recorder is inaccessible in a pocket etc. For something like the speeches often there is no point in using wireless if you can get an H1 or suchlike hidden on the table directly in front of the person speaking - that also gives you good ambient guest reaction and next door neighbours comments without having to mix.

Taping a recorder to the venue handheld mic is something I avoid - because as a photographer I don't want all that paraphernalia showing in large album spreads. Also the speakers often start using a mic and then put it down so you're stuffed.

A recorder next to a venue speaker is also of course good practice. However some systems are horrendous quality and it may not get the guests singing hymns adequately. Recently I shot in a church in which the priest was mic'd up to the inhouse system but the quality was so bad as to be almost impossible to distinguish what he was saying. I expected to be blamed for "interference" but when I asked the staff afterwards they said "yep its always like that"!

One other connection type you sometimes get in churches Craig is a single 1/4" jack socket. Just have a 1/4" male to 3.5mm female adapter from Maplins and connect your recorder using a 3.5mm cable. Doesn't matter if its mono or stereo really as you can sort that in post. Many church sound board sockets are inaccessible though.

Pete

Noa Put
May 30th, 2014, 07:39 AM
something you cannot do if your recorder is inaccessible in a pocket etc

That's why you would set such a recorder to auto gain, works very well on the zoom h1 and yamaha c24, both recorders will set the gain based on what they hear, it's ofcourse not as precise as setting it manually but it will prevent distorted audio in case of a very loud speaker and will adjust accordingly with the silent ones.

Also the speakers often start using a mic and then put it down so you're stuffed.

If that happens you can only avoid it by putting a mike with a lav on every speaker, I actually never in 9 years time had a speaker that would put his mike down during a speech, why would they do that? :) I once had a venue sound system fail so it was not possible to use a mike and the speaker had to speak up loud enough for everyone to hear, I was smart enough to tell them to speak into the handmicrophone anyway where my recorder was velcrotaped to, it might have looked a bit silly speaking in a microphone that didn't work but I got crystal clear sound.

as a photographer I don't want all that paraphernalia showing in large album spreads

As I see it the photog had his moment during the photoshoot, the speeches are my territory and if he doesn't like the recorder taped to the mike, too bad. I actually get the best sound in that way, if I go through the dj's system I often get interference or other unwanted sound, the sound from my taped on audiorecorder is always very clear and noise free, if they ofcourse hold the mike that way it should but you always have have these idiots that hold a mike at waste height :) Now I try to wait at the DJ when the speeches start and tell each speaker how he should hold his mike. Just a bit of communication does wonders.

Peter Rush
May 30th, 2014, 08:09 AM
I have to tell the speakers that my H1 recorders are for the video only and not to pick them up - I've had speakers pick them up and start speaking into them as if they were for the PA!

For speeches I now always use a H1 in front of each speaker - works a treat.

Pete

Peter Riding
May 30th, 2014, 08:42 AM
That's why you would set such a recorder to auto gain, works very well on the zoom h1 and yamaha c24, both recorders will set the gain based on what they hear, it's ofcourse not as precise as setting it manually but it will prevent distorted audio in case of a very loud speaker and will adjust accordingly with the silent ones

I find that auto with my 4 x H1's is a bit lower than I would like. I use auto if I'm unsure but around 70% with a lav and 90% if on a table.

If that happens you can only avoid it by putting a mike with a lav on every speaker, I actually never in 9 years time had a speaker that would put his mike down during a speech, why would they do that? :) I once had a venue sound system fail so it was not possible to use a mike and the speaker had to speak up loud enough for everyone to hear, I was smart enough to tell them to speak into the handmicrophone anyway where my recorder was velcrotaped to, it might have looked a bit silly speaking in a microphone that didn't work but I got crystal clear sound.

I do put a lav on each wedding breakfast talent if it looks like their position is going to be unpredictable e.g. if the tables are circular and the top table is also circular and positioned mid-room. happens quite a bit. I'll often encourage that everyone delivers their speech from the same place if there is not one rectangular top table against one wall (USA members - we seldom if ever have a lectern for speakers in the UK).

Talent puts down the handheld mic frequently in my experience, or you get one uses it and the next does not. Sometimes its because they feel that their unaided voice is fine - which often it is - or because the room speakers sound awful. I'm editing one right now in which the FOB used the mic, then the groom started with it, put it down, then grabbed it again later, then the best man used it but waived it about all over :- ( I wish I'd used lavs rather than table top H1's which also picked up the horrible room speakers.

As I see it the photog had his moment during the photoshoot, the speeches are my territory and if he doesn't like the recorder taped to the mike, too bad. I actually get the best sound in that way, if I go through the dj's system I often get interference or other unwanted sound, the sound from my taped on audiorecorder is always very clear and noise free, if they ofcourse hold the mike that way it should but you always have have these idiots that hold a mike at waste height :) Now I try to wait at the DJ when the speeches start and tell each speaker how he should hold his mike. Just a bit of communication does wonders.

That may be as you see it :- ) But the speeches are a huge part of the stills coverage and usually occupy several album spreads e.g.

Ref sides27-28-lrl Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb01_lrl/sides27-28-lrl.htm)

Ref sides57-58-rsf Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb01_rsf/sides57-58-rsf.htm)

Ref pages41-42-skh Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb02_skh/pages41-42-skh.htm)

Ref pages27-28-jmm Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb01_jmm/pages27-28-jmm.htm)

Ref sides27-28-jcr Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb01_jcr/sides27-28-jcr.htm)

Ref pages31-32 Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb01_oso/pages31-32.htm)

Ref pages35-36-njl Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb02_njl/pages35-36-njl.htm)

Ref sides47-48 Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb_album-01_csw/sides47-48.htm)

Ref sides31-32-hmh Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb01_hmh/sides31-32-hmh.htm)

Ref sides41-42-rkt Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb02_rkt/sides41-42-rkt.htm)

Ref pages31-32-ear Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb02_ear/pages31-32-ear.htm)

Ref sides31-32-kts Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb02_kts/sides31-32-kts.htm)

Plenty more where they came from :- )

Album spreads = sales = £££££

I've never had a album in which the speeches do not feature prominently unless there were no speeches. Its also a great time to shoot flattering images of as many guests as possibly smiling and laughing rather than looking glum as they so often can do when they're just chatting in other parts of the day.

I haven't heard of videographers or photographers taking ownership of certain parts of the day :- )

Craig the bottom line is that although audio is relatively simple you do need a backup strategy plus a back up of your backup strategy!

Pete

Noa Put
May 30th, 2014, 09:01 AM
It's not about taking ownership, it's about getting the best audio for my needs, I do shoot those speeches also you know which will be included in the video :)

If I understand you right you would remove your own lav mike from a groom during the ceremony if a photog has an issue with it and doesn't want that lav mike to appear on the grooms vest in his album considering those photos are an important part for him?

You just have to take it as it comes, a wedding is not a fashion shoot where every single aspect is controlled, for his pretty pictures the photog has the photoshoot, all the rest of the day both the photog and me are not in control and we both try to get the best possible shot without being to disruptive to either the couple or eachother. During the first dance the photog often position 2 flashes on a light stand at the corners of the dancefloor, the first dance is important for me but I don't tell him to remove them because I don't want their ugly lightstands to appear in my video or I don't ask the photog to stay away from the dancefloor because he is ruining my image when he circles the couple for his photo's. :)

Peter Riding
May 30th, 2014, 09:43 AM
I am the photographer as well as the videographer :- )

No I would not remove a lav from the groom for the ceremony but I wouldn't necessarily put one on him just for the sake of it either when a nearby H1 would do just as well in recording the groom bride and celebrant. The lav is not particularly intrusive anyway especially if it can be disguised effectively behind his buttonhole flower without impacting on its performance. additionally in the UK typically we cannot move around to the extent that you can and so the prime shooting position tends to be to the grooms right slightly forward; since his upper body will much of the time be turned some degrees towards his bride this further reduces any negative impact of equipment in shot.

Again if I'm attaching an H1 to a lectern I like to put it on the side away from the camera so that the lectern obscures the view of it. If it would still be highly visible and if I have time I instead place the H1 near the floor and attach a wired lav to the lecturn using heavy duty black blutack.

Similar if I'm placing an H1 near a high altar ready for the final blessing. I do prefer the audio from an H1's internal mics though rather than from a lav unless the lav is actually on someone.

I don't want a lav showing on the groom once the ceremony is over though. It is a big ask to retouch out because of all the different colours shades and textures of textiles around it.

all the rest of the day both the photog and me are not in control and we both try to get the best possible shot

part of which is avoiding equipment being in shot as far as possible. A masterclass in that was the UK royal wedding a couple of years ago. Musicians of course always have a ton of equipment and that doesn't look out of place but photo and video equipment certainly jars.

We'll have to agree to differ. My experience of photogs is the opposite to yours - very little control going on unless their style is specifically fashionista and not much use of off camera flash except for indoor formals, but 1st dance videographers blocking everyones view especially if there are two of them - well don't get me started!

Pete

Noa Put
May 30th, 2014, 10:05 AM
If you do both photo and video simultaneously, then you decide where your priorities are but the example I gave you about the lav mike on the grooms vest is exactly the same what you where suggesting, you say you don't want a audiorecorder to appear it in your images during speeches but you don't want to remove a lav mike either from the grooms vest when you would do video and if another photog would have the same request for you?

So actually you are saying the same as me, "too bad", because you need your audio in the best possible way, right? There are always other ways to get your audio but would you think about the other photog photos first and just take a lower quality audio signal so he would have his clutterfree shots? I think not.

The only thing you need to assure is not to get in eachothers way so both can have a clear shot of whatever is happening.

Peter Riding
May 30th, 2014, 12:14 PM
It goes back to my comment about strapping an audio recorder to the house handheld mic. Lavs can be intrusive and handheld mics can be intrusive but people are used to seeing them up to a point so they are not necessarily attention grabbers. As in this shot where the groom and best man are lav'd up by me:

Ref 314-5634-03_sntj Ashton Lamont Photo Video, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/813-sntj/gal03-sntj/314-5634-03_sntj.html)

There is a Zoom H1 disguised behind the wine glass in front of the seated best man as a backup. Same with groom and fob.

Here is one where a lav got left on at the start of the formals :- (

Ref 140-6236-03_hmaa Ashton Lamont Photo Video, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/815-hmaa/gal02-hmaa/140-6236-03_hmaa.html)

But people are not used to seeing an audio recorder strapped to a handheld mic and that will be a biggie attention grabber in head and shoulders album portrait spreads as in this one I linked to earlier:

Ref sides27-28-lrl Ashton Lamont Photography, Copyright (http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/albums/bb01_lrl/sides27-28-lrl.htm)

Ones first reaction is going to be "whats that thing" then your eye is drawn to its clearly in focus knobs and dials. Ambience killer. Not what I want at all. The more the means of shooting etc are visible in shots the more matter of fact and clinical they become at the expense of romance. Likewise I don't want lightstands and tripods in the background in 1st dances. Often these can be hidden behind DJ speakers and small cams friction armed to the DJs considerable lights rig etc.

Thats why I personally avoid it. I would use it if I had to - for example a few days ago at a wedding where there were multiple speech makers from numerous room locations at unpredictable moments, but in that case I had a good feed from the shure 58 via the DJs board and my G3 to my H4n. I have a reel of black electricians tape in my bag for such eventualities.

Pete

Edward Calabig
May 30th, 2014, 04:32 PM
I would spend everything first on audio:

Zoom H6 with the extra XLR input module to record a backup audio file.
2 wireless mics.
2 wired recorders/mics (I use Zoom h1s).
1 Dynamic Microphone for the sound speakers.
Cables for as many different situations as you can think of to tap into the soundboard. Never assume the DJ will provide these!

Any left over money I would put towards a nice light such as a Dedolight 150w or an Arri 150w with an air cushioned stand.

Audio is so important and the couple will NOT be happy if the sound is poor, no matter how much you warn them beforehand. I have never met a photographer or vendor who has contested a lapel that is showing, even if there are two or three attached to the groom. There are too many instances where audio can go wrong and having backups is extremely important.

Chris Harding
May 30th, 2014, 10:31 PM
Hi Peter

As I'm often the video and the photog guy I got into the habit of clipping the lav on the groom 15 minutes before the ceremony and then straight after the congrats by the guests outside I take it off him. Like you I certainly don't want to have to photoshop out the the mic on piles of stills. If I work with a photog, I also do the same and I'm sure he appreciates it too.

For Craig ...get decent audio gear first as a priority ...at worst you could ask the venue to lift the lights at the reception for stuff like speeches. I did a wedding on 4th April this year and an hour before the reception my still and lighting camera bags were stolen from my car! I managed to get thru the reception (and the on the next day too) with some help from the venue BUT if my audio case had been the victim I would have been totally screwed! Don't skimp on audio ..it's as important as video ! I'm not a DVR fan at all as I like to be able to monitor my audio and be able to adjust levels but whether you go wireless or recorder routes, don't skimp on audio, rather spend less on lights!!

Chris

Noa Put
May 31st, 2014, 12:43 AM
Audio at the ceremony is totally different then securing your audio in a venue.

When looking at Peter's photos I ended up on his website and saw under which conditions he had to record the audio at the venue which is totally different from how it's done here, in those cases his zoom h1's on the tables are the easiest solution because they don't seem to use a mike and they stay in one position at the table which never happens here, in my case they always use a mike and often start walking from left to right on the dancefloor. Supplying a lav mike on each speaker is often not possible because it can be that there are more then one person on the dancefloor and they pass the mike from one to the next or you can't attach the lav in a proper way on the dresses of some women.
At the venue the soundspeakers are often attached to the ceiling so that's not an option and if you can't get a decent feed from the dj your only option left is to velcro tape a recorder to the mikes handle.

My job is to secure good audio at the venue and if I can't get a good feed form the dj board (those feeds are often also unreliable) a very small recorder attached to the handle is the best way by far to have very clear audio, if you instruct the speakers how to hold the mike.

I now also understand why Peter makes such a fuzz about that small recorder for his photos because it looks to me his main profession is photography and video is a add-on which explains why he values his photos more, for me it's imperative I secure good sound even under difficult circumstances and that tiny recorder on the handle makes life so much easier, especially when you operate solo. Under those conditions, I don't take the photog into consideration.

The reason I said the photog had his moment during the photoshoot and that the speeches where my territory was because during long speeches at the venue I have to secure a constant quality, meaning clear sound and a good image without interruption, the photog just has to take a snapshot and he could have a drink in the meanwhile, that's why I rate the importance of my job at that moment much higher. In those case I will tell the photog where he cannot stand during the entire speech, he can use the entire venue if he pleases to take his pictures but he will have to stay away from my field of view so blocking that path towards the speaker is out of the question at that moment.

Craig McKenna
June 1st, 2014, 04:04 PM
Do most people shoot high ISO? Yes, including me. Whether people ought to be... Well, maybe that's a long discussion in itself. But one thing about Adams and Roman is that they're prepared to use fast primes and shoot wide open. So they're not going to need a whole lot of light at f/1.2 to avoid shooting above 1250 ISO. They also use lights with a lot of throw -- so Roman uses a dedolight and Adams uses a fresnel or whatever. And if something is shining on you from far away, it's less distracting, which is the main negative about lights.

Re light stand, if you're using LEDs, you can get away with really cheap plastic (and compact and light) eBay ones. $10-$20. I usually carry two lights, for fill and backlight, or to double up from one direction if I need the extra light (eg lowering contrast between bridal dress hung against window and outside world).

Re annoying the photographer, to be honest most photographers like video lights. In my experience anyway. A lot of them use video lights themselves. They like having backlight/lens flare during the dancing, same as videographers, they like using low ISO for low-noise images as much as possible, same as videographers, and the good ones prefer off-camera lighting to avoid flattening all the shadows, same as videographers.

They can get away with higher ISO than videographers, or I think so anyway. But doesn't mean they like it.

Thanks a lot Adrian! Great info... which lights do you use? Do you recommend the Dedolights? I would prefer to go LED but I'm guessing they don't have as much throw? What are the health and safety restrictions for using lights at a venue? Does it differ from place to place?

I agree - togs like a few continuous LED lights around the dance floor for first dance. Regarding lav mics I've started to use these - great price and (IMO) they sound as good as my ME-2 - Come with spare foam and tie-clips - very well made

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pronomic-LA-30-Lavalier-Microphone-Universal/dp/B004EA0D0O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1401444320&sr=8-4&keywords=pronomic

For micing the groom for the ceremony I find the H1 too bulky - and so might he in his jacket pocket. I much prefer my slimmer Olympus WM311 (now discontinued) but they do drift a little which will need correcting in post.

Pete

They are a great price! I remember in my earlier thread that people recommended the Sony voice recorders too... I just want audio as good as the best... but I can imagine that it isn't easy to achieve. I'll check out buying those lav mics either way!! Thanks for the recommendation...

Sometimes I go for long periods without using my wireless systems but I do like the ability to change the levels in the receiving recorder mid-ceremony if the talent has a booming or a mousy voice - something you cannot do if your recorder is inaccessible in a pocket etc. For something like the speeches often there is no point in using wireless if you can get an H1 or suchlike hidden on the table directly in front of the person speaking - that also gives you good ambient guest reaction and next door neighbours comments without having to mix.

Taping a recorder to the venue handheld mic is something I avoid - because as a photographer I don't want all that paraphernalia showing in large album spreads. Also the speakers often start using a mic and then put it down so you're stuffed.

A recorder next to a venue speaker is also of course good practice. However some systems are horrendous quality and it may not get the guests singing hymns adequately. Recently I shot in a church in which the priest was mic'd up to the inhouse system but the quality was so bad as to be almost impossible to distinguish what he was saying. I expected to be blamed for "interference" but when I asked the staff afterwards they said "yep its always like that"!

One other connection type you sometimes get in churches Craig is a single 1/4" jack socket. Just have a 1/4" male to 3.5mm female adapter from Maplins and connect your recorder using a 3.5mm cable. Doesn't matter if its mono or stereo really as you can sort that in post. Many church sound board sockets are inaccessible though.

Pete

Do you adjust the levels in your camera using the wireless systems?

Shocking that churches have such poor audio... definitely dislike the vicars who mumble through a service too - not that I've been there when recording though.

I'll get those connectors now - cheers Peter. Have you had someone like myself sign up before and you've managed to turn them pro with your advice?!

For speeches I now always use a H1 in front of each speaker - works a treat.

Pete

Sounds fool-proof Peter - do you use auto gain in this situation?


Craig the bottom line is that although audio is relatively simple you do need a backup strategy plus a back up of your backup strategy!

Pete

I like your 70% and 90% tip - the levels I set my table top mics at were 70% on the wedding day - captured fine, but I bet 90% would have been better.

From the conversation with Noa and yourself, it seems that educating the speakers would help even more... unless you just have people who go against your better knowledge, or forget, or you don't have time to converse with them.

For my two recorded speeches, I notified everyone on the groom's table about the recorders and I had the groom explain to the speakers where they needed to stand - thankfully, they remained in position.

I think I would like to lav up every speaker, although I bet this is time consuming and frustrating for the speakers.

I would spend everything first on audio:

Zoom H6 with the extra XLR input module to record a backup audio file.
2 wireless mics.
2 wired recorders/mics (I use Zoom h1s).
1 Dynamic Microphone for the sound speakers.
Cables for as many different situations as you can think of to tap into the soundboard. Never assume the DJ will provide these!

Any left over money I would put towards a nice light such as a Dedolight 150w or an Arri 150w with an air cushioned stand.

Audio is so important and the couple will NOT be happy if the sound is poor, no matter how much you warn them beforehand. I have never met a photographer or vendor who has contested a lapel that is showing, even if there are two or three attached to the groom. There are too many instances where audio can go wrong and having backups is extremely important.

Where would you position the H6? What benefits does a H6 bring over a H1, given that you won't be attaching a microphone into its XLR inputs? Or will you?

Thanks a lot for that list... I'll go for it when/if I get the jobs this summer!

Definitely understand this... I've not offered audio to the wedding couples this summer, but rather a free four minute video to a song of their choosing... mostly so I can get used to capturing good video and then I'll start working on the audio... but a part of me wants to throw audio in as a surprise or as an extra... either way, once I start doing this properly, I want to be as good as anyone else would be starting out - with great audio to boot.

One issue with lights for the dance is that we often get DJ lights here... multi-coloured streams... that just destroy your video footage (or at least to my tastes...).



For Craig ...get decent audio gear first as a priority ...at worst you could ask the venue to lift the lights at the reception for stuff like speeches. I did a wedding on 4th April this year and an hour before the reception my still and lighting camera bags were stolen from my car! I managed to get thru the reception (and the on the next day too) with some help from the venue BUT if my audio case had been the victim I would have been totally screwed! Don't skimp on audio ..it's as important as video ! I'm not a DVR fan at all as I like to be able to monitor my audio and be able to adjust levels but whether you go wireless or recorder routes, don't skimp on audio, rather spend less on lights!!

Chris

That's terrible Chris! Will your insurance cover you?!

Can you recommend how it is best to monitor your audio? Do you get something like a DR-60D from Tascam? Is a four channel field recorder so that you can have multiple audio streams passed into the device and record all four channels or something?

I seriously need to gain a basic understanding of audio... I get how to use a H1 and a lav, as well as how to use a tabletop mic... or to aim a mic at speakers... but when it comes to monitoring, wireless or any other fancy way of doing things, I become confused.

---

Thank you to everyone for your posts! I'm going to learn as much as I can about audio tomorrow on my day off - much appreciated.

Noa Put
June 1st, 2014, 04:37 PM
I did a wedding on 4th April this year and an hour before the reception my still and lighting camera bags were stolen from my car!

I missed that remark, realy? If I hear these stories I always cringe at the thought of ever being robbed, that's why I always carry my most important gear with me at all times but I do often have to leave some things in the car like my steadicam or my slider. Did you loose a lot of gear? And was it taken at the venue parking? That kinda sucks, hope it was only small stuff.

Adrian Tan
June 1st, 2014, 05:48 PM
Thanks a lot Adrian! Great info... which lights do you use? Do you recommend the Dedolights? I would prefer to go LED but I'm guessing they don't have as much throw? What are the health and safety restrictions for using lights at a venue? Does it differ from place to place?

I generally use 3 x Switronix Torch Bolts. Dedolights are fantastic, and I have one, but I always worry about hot lights falling on somebody. The Torch Bolts have fallen over more than once, when knocked by a guest or by a careless cameraman. Plus, I avoid hot lights because I don't want to worry about running cables, and waiting for the light to cool before packing them up, and changing lamps if you rattle the fixture and break one. Your mileage will vary depending on the size of room you've got to play with.

Health/safety -- some venues will ask you for a copy of public liability insurance. Never encountered any restrictions as such, but then again I haven't yet tried my luck flying a quadcopter inside the venue room.

Rob Cantwell
June 1st, 2014, 06:50 PM
my take on this is;
audio is at least as important as video! you may be forgiven for some poor video but it really annoys if you cant make out the audio, especially the spoken word.

my own particular audio setup is as follows;
I have a pair of Yamaha c24 and a Sony CD-PX333 Series recorder
the Sony goes in the Grooms pocket
a Sennheiser ew 135-p G3 Wireless Kit (thats a receiver that attaches to the camera and a radio mic thats usually taped to the church/venue mic)
the two yamahas are placed at locations like a lectern where the church mic wont be used and the other one might be where the musicians/vocalist(s) are.
this offers me a reasonable spread where i can capture good audio, the shotgun mic or onboard mics of the other cameras are not good, but at the end of the day - better than nothing!
For the speeches i have been using the wireless mic taped to the venue one, as a backup i leave the other three recorders along the top table and as a last resort two or three onboard camera mics.

I have one light a
Sony HVLLBPB High Power LED Video Light which was not cheap, of course i bought it first before i researched into it.
i don't use it much, it's ok if your subject is backlit and you want to add some fill, I often use a large reflector instead, lots of clients dislike lights and the other thing is that trying to light the dance floor is very difficult, i've all but given up using a light for the first dance, if the couple are bathed in different coloured spots or whatever so be it! anyway i haven't felt the need for more lights as of yet.

Chris Harding
June 1st, 2014, 07:29 PM
Hi Craig and Noa

My car was parked at the photo venue behind the limo (with the driver in it too!!) yet the window was forced and they grabbed my Nikon gear bag with 3 lenses and a D90 body and flash unit plus my 2nd Novoflex adapter. The second smaller bag had both my on-camera lights which went as well!! I was doing the stedicam shoot about 50m away at most and the lady limo driver says she saw nothing!!

Yes insurance covered everything (they actually insisted on paying me more than I asked for so I ended up with an extra Sigma 18-35 F1.8 which is awesome at receptions) Without video lights was the most inconvenient thing ! I just redid the stills on my video camera!!

I don't use DVR's so monitoring wireless gear is easy for me. I used to have a Tascam but never liked it at all. I prefer my wireless mic setups which I can monitor. However with the Tascam I had a Bluetooth module I bought on eBay that plugged into the DVR's headphone output and sent a signal to a set of Bluetooth headphones ...it actually worked very well for me and at least I could hear what the DVR was recording. The transmitter part was small too so it could still fit in a pocket.

Chris

Edward Calabig
June 2nd, 2014, 01:17 AM
Thanks a lot Adrian! Great info... which lights do you use? Do you recommend the Dedolights? I would prefer to go LED but I'm guessing they don't have as much throw? What are the health and safety restrictions for using lights at a venue? Does it differ from place to place?



They are a great price! I remember in my earlier thread that people recommended the Sony voice recorders too... I just want audio as good as the best... but I can imagine that it isn't easy to achieve. I'll check out buying those lav mics either way!! Thanks for the recommendation...



Do you adjust the levels in your camera using the wireless systems?

Shocking that churches have such poor audio... definitely dislike the vicars who mumble through a service too - not that I've been there when recording though.

I'll get those connectors now - cheers Peter. Have you had someone like myself sign up before and you've managed to turn them pro with your advice?!



Sounds fool-proof Peter - do you use auto gain in this situation?



I like your 70% and 90% tip - the levels I set my table top mics at were 70% on the wedding day - captured fine, but I bet 90% would have been better.

From the conversation with Noa and yourself, it seems that educating the speakers would help even more... unless you just have people who go against your better knowledge, or forget, or you don't have time to converse with them.

For my two recorded speeches, I notified everyone on the groom's table about the recorders and I had the groom explain to the speakers where they needed to stand - thankfully, they remained in position.

I think I would like to lav up every speaker, although I bet this is time consuming and frustrating for the speakers.



Where would you position the H6? What benefits does a H6 bring over a H1, given that you won't be attaching a microphone into its XLR inputs? Or will you?

Thanks a lot for that list... I'll go for it when/if I get the jobs this summer!

Definitely understand this... I've not offered audio to the wedding couples this summer, but rather a free four minute video to a song of their choosing... mostly so I can get used to capturing good video and then I'll start working on the audio... but a part of me wants to throw audio in as a surprise or as an extra... either way, once I start doing this properly, I want to be as good as anyone else would be starting out - with great audio to boot.

One issue with lights for the dance is that we often get DJ lights here... multi-coloured streams... that just destroy your video footage (or at least to my tastes...).



That's terrible Chris! Will your insurance cover you?!

Can you recommend how it is best to monitor your audio? Do you get something like a DR-60D from Tascam? Is a four channel field recorder so that you can have multiple audio streams passed into the device and record all four channels or something?

I seriously need to gain a basic understanding of audio... I get how to use a H1 and a lav, as well as how to use a tabletop mic... or to aim a mic at speakers... but when it comes to monitoring, wireless or any other fancy way of doing things, I become confused.

---

Thank you to everyone for your posts! I'm going to learn as much as I can about audio tomorrow on my day off - much appreciated.

Hi Craig,

I position the H6 next to the DJ so I can tap the sound from the DJ. I actually have my assistant as my dedicated sound guy during the ceremony so he can adjust the levels of all the mics during the ceremony.

The H6 is an external recorder that I use because of the pre-amps and simple audio adjustments you can make. It will not be feasible to attach to a subject.

Audio is extremely important if you would like to command higher rates in the future. It's really a distinguishing asset that can be the difference from a sub $1,500 videographer and $3,000 when couples are considering you.

As for the light. I prefer a stationary light rather than an on camera LED simply because it gives a great back and hair light. I'm not too concerned with mixing lights as I color correct all my footage and most couples are not concerned with having exact color temperatures. At worst, I pack some gels I can clip onto the barndoors of my Dedolight.

Be aware that I now shoot weddings full time and I'm in this for the long run. It is not necessary to get exceptional audio and lighting but it has made the difference when couples have met and discussed my work prior to signing a contract.

Peter Riding
June 2nd, 2014, 02:28 AM
Do you adjust the levels in your camera using the wireless systems?

Shocking that churches have such poor audio... definitely dislike the vicars who mumble through a service too - not that I've been there when recording though.

I'll get those connectors now - cheers Peter. Have you had someone like myself sign up before and you've managed to turn them pro with your advice?!

Yes I do adjust the Levels in the cam when using wireless. Likewise if I am wirelessing straight into an audio recorder - usually my Zoom H4n.

Adjusting Levels in the wireless units is all well and good if you have the time and opportunity but you do of course need to have physical access to each transmitter and receiver and go through their menus to do that. Instead I have both the G3 receiver and the G3 transmitter set to -12dB permanently for speech. This gives me a clean recording. Typically I have the levels in the H4n set at a default of 50% for any socket that is receiving from a G3 and of course I can adjust the Levels on the H4n for each channel individually (in its "4ch" mode). If I connect a G3 transmitter to the DJ's board I could adjust the dB to be lower than my default of -12dB to take account of the "hotter" signal from the board and stop peaking, but I prefer to simply add a -25dB pad cable inbetween the board and the transmitter so its one less thing to think about. The G3 units do have a peaking warning light anyway.

The Zoom H6 is a capable unit but it is not all that it may seem when you delve into it. It has a lower noise than the Zoom H4n but reliable reviews have reported that when you increase the Levels from 6 to 7 on its dials there is a significant increase in preamp noise. Also the two extra XLR sockets you can add at extra cost do not support phantom power (though the other 4 do so). You don't need phantom power for the G3 receivers though. The 3.5mm input on it is on the removable onboard mics unit at the top so if you take that off you lose the 3.5mm input. Again it can record two versions of your audio at the same time, one version being -12dB lower than the main one; but only if you use the onboard mics, not available using the XLRs. Some users have reported that the LCD is annoyingly small and tricky to judge Levels readings on. The H6 is a big unit as well and this has implications if you want to hide its placement or even when trying to fit all your gear into one bag.

Bear in mind that noisy preamps are not a huge concern for most wedding work. What audio specialists regard as noisy and what "normal" users regard as noisy are different. With weddings there is almost always some ambient sound going on which will drown preamp noise anyway.

Hey I'm no guru. In a few months you'll take it all for granted and wonder what all the fuss was about :- )

Pete

Craig McKenna
June 2nd, 2014, 06:19 AM
I generally use 3 x Switronix Torch Bolts. Dedolights are fantastic, and I have one, but I always worry about hot lights falling on somebody. The Torch Bolts have fallen over more than once, when knocked by a guest or by a careless cameraman. Plus, I avoid hot lights because I don't want to worry about running cables, and waiting for the light to cool before packing them up, and changing lamps if you rattle the fixture and break one. Your mileage will vary depending on the size of room you've got to play with.

Health/safety -- some venues will ask you for a copy of public liability insurance. Never encountered any restrictions as such, but then again I haven't yet tried my luck flying a quadcopter inside the venue room.

So, is it safe to say that the Switronix Torch bolts run cool, as they're LED lit? They look like a great unit and I might invest in two of them!!! Did the torch lights survive the falls? Also, what batteries do you use with them? And what are the costs? Thanks for these - they look perfect!

Haha good luck with the quadcopter - I met up with two photographers recently who were laughing because a camera man had a £10,000 helicopter and flew it into a wall of a warehouse... apparently it was really evident that it was going to hit the wall... but yet he continued to fly it in that direction... apparently there was a good ten seconds for him to avoid hitting the wall... but he didn't seem able to control it and then it hit the deck - much to the photographers annoyance. Although it's a funny story, I guess it's also a frustrating one for the photog and a scary one for potential weddings, should this happen to any of us... I'm ages away from considering a device such as this though.

Thank you for your help Adrian!!!

my take on this is;
audio is at least as important as video! you may be forgiven for some poor video but it really annoys if you cant make out the audio, especially the spoken word.

my own particular audio setup is as follows;
I have a pair of Yamaha c24 and a Sony CD-PX333 Series recorder
the Sony goes in the Grooms pocket
a Sennheiser ew 135-p G3 Wireless Kit (thats a receiver that attaches to the camera and a radio mic thats usually taped to the church/venue mic)
the two yamahas are placed at locations like a lectern where the church mic wont be used and the other one might be where the musicians/vocalist(s) are.
this offers me a reasonable spread where i can capture good audio, the shotgun mic or onboard mics of the other cameras are not good, but at the end of the day - better than nothing!
For the speeches i have been using the wireless mic taped to the venue one, as a backup i leave the other three recorders along the top table and as a last resort two or three onboard camera mics.

Thank you for explaining your setup Rob! My only questions here are:

Do you not get an awful hitting sound when the speakers are holding the mic? I know my tabletop Tascams are extremely sensitive to that event.
Do you monitor sound using your cameras headphone socket for the G3 kit?

Thank you Rob!

I have one light a
Sony HVLLBPB High Power LED Video Light which was not cheap, of course i bought it first before i researched into it.
i don't use it much, it's ok if your subject is backlit and you want to add some fill, I often use a large reflector instead, lots of clients dislike lights and the other thing is that trying to light the dance floor is very difficult, i've all but given up using a light for the first dance, if the couple are bathed in different coloured spots or whatever so be it! anyway i haven't felt the need for more lights as of yet.

Thanks Rob! It's really interesting how different videographers feel about lights... personally, I love the look of a light that's bright and shining into the camera during the first dance... I've seen it used really well... but then I know how undesirable it is to have multi-coloured lights all over the brides... and I doubt using your own lights will stop this from happening.

Have many people expressed their dislike of lights to you during a ceremony etc?

Hi Craig and Noa

My car was parked at the photo venue behind the limo (with the driver in it too!!) yet the window was forced and they grabbed my Nikon gear bag with 3 lenses and a D90 body and flash unit plus my 2nd Novoflex adapter. The second smaller bag had both my on-camera lights which went as well!! I was doing the stedicam shoot about 50m away at most and the lady limo driver says she saw nothing!!

Yes insurance covered everything (they actually insisted on paying me more than I asked for so I ended up with an extra Sigma 18-35 F1.8 which is awesome at receptions) Without video lights was the most inconvenient thing ! I just redid the stills on my video camera!!

I don't use DVR's so monitoring wireless gear is easy for me. I used to have a Tascam but never liked it at all. I prefer my wireless mic setups which I can monitor. However with the Tascam I had a Bluetooth module I bought on eBay that plugged into the DVR's headphone output and sent a signal to a set of Bluetooth headphones ...it actually worked very well for me and at least I could hear what the DVR was recording. The transmitter part was small too so it could still fit in a pocket.

Chris

That's terrible Chris, but at least you got the Sigma as a nice counter to the theft. Can you tell me which insurance company you are with and roughly how much it would cost to insure around £10,000 worth of equipment?

Have you ever experienced any interference with wireless set ups? Rob Adams seemed to dislike the idea of wireless set ups... he was always talking about backing up your audio with wired solutions...

That Bluetooth idea sounds great!

Hi Craig,

I position the H6 next to the DJ so I can tap the sound from the DJ. I actually have my assistant as my dedicated sound guy during the ceremony so he can adjust the levels of all the mics during the ceremony.

The H6 is an external recorder that I use because of the pre-amps and simple audio adjustments you can make. It will not be feasible to attach to a subject.

Thank you Edward! That's great... I'll consider purchasing one of these in the near future.

Audio is extremely important if you would like to command higher rates in the future. It's really a distinguishing asset that can be the difference from a sub $1,500 videographer and $3,000 when couples are considering you.

I most definitely want to hit the higher market and become a great pro eventually! I can definitely see how audio will deflect couples... I did manage to capture great audio using my Tascams... but that was with a lot of frustration at times with the mobile interference that nobody seems to have mentioned... d-d-d-d-d... etc.

As for the light. I prefer a stationary light rather than an on camera LED simply because it gives a great back and hair light. I'm not too concerned with mixing lights as I color correct all my footage and most couples are not concerned with having exact color temperatures. At worst, I pack some gels I can clip onto the barndoors of my Dedolight.

Be aware that I now shoot weddings full time and I'm in this for the long run. It is not necessary to get exceptional audio and lighting but it has made the difference when couples have met and discussed my work prior to signing a contract.

Sounds great Edward. Out of interest, how long before you reached this level? I wish to become a pro within two years... I'm just working on getting a solid foundation, solid gear and a solid understanding of the fundamentals. By the tenth wedding that I shoot - which I estimate will be next summer - I hope to have a range of new gear that ensures great audio, footage and potentially, a great glidecam. Eventually, I really want a Mobi M5!



Yes I do adjust the Levels in the cam when using wireless. Likewise if I am wirelessing straight into an audio recorder - usually my Zoom H4n.

The advantages of being able to do this are amazing... when using my Tascams... I was always anxious that the audio I was getting was perhaps terrible, or perhaps brilliant, but not knowing was frustrating.

Adjusting Levels in the wireless units is all well and good if you have the time and opportunity but you do of course need to have physical access to each transmitter and receiver and go through their menus to do that. Instead I have both the G3 receiver and the G3 transmitter set to -12dB permanently for speech. This gives me a clean recording. Typically I have the levels in the H4n set at a default of 50% for any socket that is receiving from a G3 and of course I can adjust the Levels on the H4n for each channel individually (in its "4ch" mode). If I connect a G3 transmitter to the DJ's board I could adjust the dB to be lower than my default of -12dB to take account of the "hotter" signal from the board and stop peaking, but I prefer to simply add a -25dB pad cable inbetween the board and the transmitter so its one less thing to think about. The G3 units do have a peaking warning light anyway.

Thanks Peter. So rather than monitoring, you set your levels? I would be happy to do this if seasoned pros do the same... do you monitor any sound during your shoot? Or do you focus more so on the footage once everything is set up to your liking?

The Zoom H6 is a capable unit but it is not all that it may seem when you delve into it. It has a lower noise than the Zoom H4n but reliable reviews have reported that when you increase the Levels from 6 to 7 on its dials there is a significant increase in preamp noise. Also the two extra XLR sockets you can add at extra cost do not support phantom power (though the other 4 do so). You don't need phantom power for the G3 receivers though. The 3.5mm input on it is on the removable onboard mics unit at the top so if you take that off you lose the 3.5mm input. Again it can record two versions of your audio at the same time, one version being -12dB lower than the main one; but only if you use the onboard mics, not available using the XLRs. Some users have reported that the LCD is annoyingly small and tricky to judge Levels readings on. The H6 is a big unit as well and this has implications if you want to hide its placement or even when trying to fit all your gear into one bag.

Bear in mind that noisy preamps are not a huge concern for most wedding work. What audio specialists regard as noisy and what "normal" users regard as noisy are different. With weddings there is almost always some ambient sound going on which will drown preamp noise anyway.

Hey I'm no guru. In a few months you'll take it all for granted and wonder what all the fuss was about :- )

Pete

Thanks Pete - to my current level of knowledge - you are a guru, along with others here.

Massively helpful as always. I think like everything else - experience will help me to understand everything that people are discussing here. As well as this, I think having the devices in front of me will help too... I still don't quite understand how you can adjust levels with these things... or if there is a way to monitor all of the sound that you are capturing through one device? Or if this is even necessary - it would seem that it is not necessary.

Either way, thank you!

Peter Riding
June 2nd, 2014, 10:18 AM
Its easy to monitor the Levels on the LCD display of either you cam or your recording device whichever you are using at that moment. If its your cam its probably just a matter of turning a knob if the Levels appear to be peaking too high - I ignore crowds clapping when looking at the peaking as that is bound to be far higher than the rest of the take.

On a device like the H4n, if you have 3 inputs on the go - being 1 x internal mics and 2 x XLR channels - you see 3 different Levels in the graphical display. You can adjust each input by pressing its appropriate button then twitching the rocker switch on the units side.

For something like speeches once you've checked the Levels for that particular speaker you are pretty much safe to leave it. For something like music in the evening not so as the DJs often change the volume. Therefore if your audio recorder is getting a wireless feed you don't have to go back to where a wired recorder might be perched to adjust that.

One thing that is confusing about the H4n is that although its onboard mics record in stereo to the left and the right channel, and that is all visible in your NLE as expected, its a bit different using the XLR inputs.

With XLR one input goes to one channel and the other to the 2nd channel of the same track. So if you are recording 2 different input sources 1 to each XLR socket you may appear to have "lost" one of your recordings. But what has really happened is that the XLR-1 input has gone to the left channel and the XLR-2 input to the right channel. They are both there but its not immediately obvious - it can look like you've only got the left channel. But its easy to deal with that in an NLE like Vegas.

I looked at the Zoom H6 this afternoon in my local music store - Dawsons - but I was not impressed. That is a huge device. I wouldn't want to put it on top of a dSLR :- ) The build quality was not as nice as I was expecting but the killer for me was I thought that the LCD display is too small to monitor several inputs on it.

I'll stick with my H4n. Be careful of the H4n auto-Levels function if you get one. It has a strange way of dealing with it if there is a sudden peak - everything after the peak will be too quiet on auto.
There is a useful H4n training DVD here:

Zoom H4n Handy Recorder DVD Tutorial | ProAudioDVDs.comProAudioDVDs.com (http://proaudiodvds.com/store/multitrack-recorders/zoom-h4n-dvd-tutorial/)

Its own manual is quite daunting as the device caters for a whole bunch of musician needs.

Pete

Rob Cantwell
June 4th, 2014, 08:51 AM
..............My only questions here are:
Do you not get an awful hitting sound when the speakers are holding the mic? I know my tabletop Tascams are extremely sensitive to that event.
Do you monitor sound using your cameras headphone socket for the G3 kit?

Have many people expressed their dislike of lights to you during a ceremony etc?


The Sennheiser mic is really well made and I've not experienced any handling noise, obviously you'll get pops/clicks if the speaker holds it too close, but thats part of the scene, it's a live event, you don't know if the speaker will stand still, lower the mic, wave it about breath heavily on it, you can advise them where to hold it etc. but usually they'll do their own thing anyway.

I monitor the audio using a cheap Sony headset it has reversible earcups for single-sided monitoring.


I get asked by a few couples 'do you use lights? will they be distracting' I guess some people compare them to the days when you needed big lights for video, some have expressed concern about lights ruining the atmosphere!
Once while using a light, I had a photographer complain that my light was causing him problems! I replied that his focus assisted beam, pre-flash and full flash, didn't impress me either ;-)

Chris Harding
June 4th, 2014, 05:46 PM
Right on with the light story Rob

They squeal and complain about a dim fill light on the camera and then whilst filming the bride a bright orange matrix pattern appears on her dress and even on her face. I don't even hide that footage any more but explain that she needs to ask the photog why he left his flash assist on!

Chris

Noa Put
June 5th, 2014, 01:39 AM
Once while using a light, I had a photographer complain that my light was causing him problems!

Had that comment from a photog back in my canon xh-a1 days as well, also once just before the first dance in a very dark candle lit venue, I put on my oncamera light at the dancefloor across the DJ (about 10 meters from him) and he came up to me asking if I please could turn of the light as it was blinding him :)

Edward Calabig
June 5th, 2014, 05:02 PM
Craig,

Unfortunately there's no methodology to becoming a "pro."

It took 2 years for us to get steady work, and 3 to break the $2,000 market. We started charging lower and raising prices as the years went on. I do not recommend this as it is harder to raise prices for references that previous clients referred.

It also took us 3 years to find our style. Don't be afraid to experiment and take risks. As long as you don't mess around with the ceremony, dances, and speeches, you have the freedom to shoot what you want. Playing around with the edit is also a good way to distinguish yourself and have fun.

Peter Rush
June 6th, 2014, 01:53 AM
Right on with the light story Rob

They squeal and complain about a dim fill light on the camera and then whilst filming the bride a bright orange matrix pattern appears on her dress and even on her face. I don't even hide that footage any more but explain that she needs to ask the photog why he left his flash assist on!

Chris

God I get that more and more - looks like they're being stalked by the predator!!!! Think it's just Nikons that have that - thankfully most togs in my area at least use Canon.

Peter Rush
June 6th, 2014, 01:54 AM
Had that comment from a photog back in my canon xh-a1 days as well, also once just before the first dance in a very dark candle lit venue, I put on my oncamera light at the dancefloor across the DJ (about 10 meters from him) and he came up to me asking if I please could turn of the light as it was blinding him :)

I would have not turned it off in that situation - i explain to people that even though my gear is exceedingly good in low light situations they're not magic cameras - they still need light to record an image - did he not use his flash then!!!

Craig McKenna
June 10th, 2014, 01:51 PM
Its easy to monitor the Levels on the LCD display of either you cam or your recording device whichever you are using at that moment. If its your cam its probably just a matter of turning a knob if the Levels appear to be peaking too high - I ignore crowds clapping when looking at the peaking as that is bound to be far higher than the rest of the take.

On a device like the H4n, if you have 3 inputs on the go - being 1 x internal mics and 2 x XLR channels - you see 3 different Levels in the graphical display. You can adjust each input by pressing its appropriate button then twitching the rocker switch on the units side.

How do I get a Zoom H4N to read levels via XLR when the mics are at least 15 feet away? Do you use long XLR cables? Sounds like I just need to get the gear and then learn... sounds much easier once you know how, although I never think capturing audio will be referred to as 'easy' per se.

For something like speeches once you've checked the Levels for that particular speaker you are pretty much safe to leave it. For something like music in the evening not so as the DJs often change the volume. Therefore if your audio recorder is getting a wireless feed you don't have to go back to where a wired recorder might be perched to adjust that.

One thing that is confusing about the H4n is that although its onboard mics record in stereo to the left and the right channel, and that is all visible in your NLE as expected, its a bit different using the XLR inputs.

With XLR one input goes to one channel and the other to the 2nd channel of the same track. So if you are recording 2 different input sources 1 to each XLR socket you may appear to have "lost" one of your recordings. But what has really happened is that the XLR-1 input has gone to the left channel and the XLR-2 input to the right channel. They are both there but its not immediately obvious - it can look like you've only got the left channel. But its easy to deal with that in an NLE like Vegas.

Thanks a lot for these tips!!! :)

I looked at the Zoom H6 this afternoon in my local music store - Dawsons - but I was not impressed. That is a huge device. I wouldn't want to put it on top of a dSLR :- ) The build quality was not as nice as I was expecting but the killer for me was I thought that the LCD display is too small to monitor several inputs on it.

I'll stick with my H4n. Be careful of the H4n auto-Levels function if you get one. It has a strange way of dealing with it if there is a sudden peak - everything after the peak will be too quiet on auto.
There is a useful H4n training DVD here:

Zoom H4n Handy Recorder DVD Tutorial | ProAudioDVDs.comProAudioDVDs.com (http://proaudiodvds.com/store/multitrack-recorders/zoom-h4n-dvd-tutorial/)

Its own manual is quite daunting as the device caters for a whole bunch of musician needs.

Pete

Thanks a lot, would you recommend the H4N over TASCAM equivalents? I feel like TASCAM seem to be more respected in the reviews that I read... but that the H4N is the more popular product for on the go pros? If so, I'll pick up that tutorial and a H4N! Now that I'm considering this as a potential business, I'm almost kicking myself for choosing M4/3 over Canon... so I can imagine I would feel the same if I chose TASCAM over Zoom in some ways... sometimes it's just easier to travel with the pack as third party add ons are more widely accessible. In saying that, I can't wait for the GH4... so M4/3 is definitely on the right lines... just a shame it can't really stand up against the ISO of a Sony FF / Canon C100 - a conversation for a different thread though. :)

The Sennheiser mic is really well made and I've not experienced any handling noise, obviously you'll get pops/clicks if the speaker holds it too close, but thats part of the scene, it's a live event, you don't know if the speaker will stand still, lower the mic, wave it about breath heavily on it, you can advise them where to hold it etc. but usually they'll do their own thing anyway.

I monitor the audio using a cheap Sony headset it has reversible earcups for single-sided monitoring.

I get asked by a few couples 'do you use lights? will they be distracting' I guess some people compare them to the days when you needed big lights for video, some have expressed concern about lights ruining the atmosphere!
Once while using a light, I had a photographer complain that my light was causing him problems! I replied that his focus assisted beam, pre-flash and full flash, didn't impress me either ;-)

Sweet - thanks a lot for this feedback... I'm really intrigued with the Rode Video Mic Pro... but I'm going to consider the Sennheiser now too!

I can understand that... but when I view videos with a light for the first dance, I always think the footage looks a lot better!!! Hahaha focus assist beam seems the most pointless thing! I turned it off on my OMD and it still focuses fast.

Craig,

Unfortunately there's no methodology to becoming a "pro."

It took 2 years for us to get steady work, and 3 to break the $2,000 market. We started charging lower and raising prices as the years went on. I do not recommend this as it is harder to raise prices for references that previous clients referred.

It also took us 3 years to find our style. Don't be afraid to experiment and take risks. As long as you don't mess around with the ceremony, dances, and speeches, you have the freedom to shoot what you want. Playing around with the edit is also a good way to distinguish yourself and have fun.

Thanks Edward. I can definitely understand where you're coming from!!! It's knowing more about the business side (or rather, understanding my lack of knowledge) that has made me want to seek out more of an understanding of the market and recommendations for the ways in which you go about your business via CreativeLive.

How many weddings a year do you shoot? I've figured that I'd need to shoot about 30 to break my current wages, but then when I consider the equipment involved, I wonder how you all manage to stay afloat?! Yet it seems like it can be hugely profitable at the same time?!

Definitely! Thank you!!! I am definitely wanting to do more... I'm hoping to have four weddings in my summer weeks... so we'll see what happens!!! :D

What would your recommendations be if I were to start up a business in a year's time?

Peter Riding
June 10th, 2014, 03:23 PM
How do I get a Zoom H4N to read levels via XLR when the mics are at least 15 feet away? Do you use long XLR cables? Sounds like I just need to get the gear and then learn...*

The distance is irrelevant as is the method of connection. You could be 15 inches away or 150 yards, and could be hard-wired or wireless. The Levels display shows you what the device is receiving regardless. On the Zoom H4n there are three possible Levels displays 1) for the onboard mics 2) for the XLR input No 1, and 3) for the XLR input No 2. To view the Levels for any one input you just press its corresponding button alongside. If you need to then adjust the Levels you use a rocker type switch on the right side.

Yep you do need to plunge in and muck about with the equipment. One thing that catches everyone out with the H4n is that the record button must be pressed twice to start recording. The first press simply tells it to display the Levels on the LCD. I've watcheda webinar from a respected photography tutor of several decades standing in which there was an H4n in front of him blinking away – indicating that he had forgotton to press Record twice :- ) He must have used a backup – which is always a very good thing to have with audio.

As with video and stills I think you learn quickest and in the most depth if you force yourself into demanding situations rather than just experimenting at home with TV sets and radios and family pets :- ) A local amateur dramatics group doing rehearsals might work well – though you would have to manage their expectations very firmly so that they understand exactly why you are there.

would you recommend the H4N over TASCAM equivalents?

I have no personal experience with Tascams. I feel there has been some snootiness from audio professionals towards Zooms though not from working wedding professionals who were quick to identify their considerable benefits. I've had my H4n for at least 4 years and there wasn't as much choice around then. At that time its X-Y onboard mic configuration was a winner as was its capacity for tow XLR inputs. Oh and the metal socket in the back to accept standard male photographic 1/4”x20 screws as found on tripod plates, friction arms etc.

The H4n is silly cheap now what with the introduction of the Zoom H5. The H5 is a smaller version of the H6; my reaction has been “so what”.

Audio pros working in film and TV (other than reality shows) don't like recorders of these types partly because of what they call the noise floor. But in wedding work there is seldom if ever a moment of complete silence so slight noise from the recorder is irrelevant.

Noa will be pleased to know that I've just bought a recorder for the specific purpose of strapping to venue handheld mics :- ) Its the Olympus VN-733PC. It was on Amazon special deals at £40 today. There are all sorts of things wrong with it (only two Levels settings [though it appears to have an onboard Normalize function and Low Pass], no tripod bush etc) but in the right set of circumstances it should be a lifesaver – those being where there are multiple reception speakers who are impossible to lav up, who may pop up anywhere and at anytime, and there in no reliable feed from the DJ deck available. I have a GoPro velcro wrist strap which I can use to fasten it to a venue mic.

Hey, be careful not to assume that most weddings will be like the one you shot recently where all the stars and planets seemed to be in alignment :- ) And be very careful about income projections. Videography has a place in the sun at present rather like stills did a few years ago. But stills went from being a low paid job to a highly paid job then back to a low paid job in the space of about 7 years. Video may well prove to be the same. It still beats having to hold down a proper job though :- )

Pete

Craig McKenna
June 10th, 2014, 04:08 PM
How do I get a Zoom H4N to read levels via XLR when the mics are at least 15 feet away? Do you use long XLR cables? Sounds like I just need to get the gear and then learn...*

The distance is irrelevant as is the method of connection. You could be 15 inches away or 150 yards, and could be hard-wired or wireless. The Levels display shows you what the device is receiving regardless. On the Zoom H4n there are three possible Levels displays 1) for the onboard mics 2) for the XLR input No 1, and 3) for the XLR input No 2. To view the Levels for any one input you just press its corresponding button alongside. If you need to then adjust the Levels you use a rocker type switch on the right side.

Thanks Peter, I was under the impression that most of you wouldn't use a longer cable - don't ask me why. I would love for everything to be wirelessly inputted into my camera for fear that someone would slip over my cables, but I also understand the need to back up etc.

Yep you do need to plunge in and muck about with the equipment. One thing that catches everyone out with the H4n is that the record button must be pressed twice to start recording. The first press simply tells it to display the Levels on the LCD. I've watcheda webinar from a respected photography tutor of several decades standing in which there was an H4n in front of him blinking away – indicating that he had forgotton to press Record twice :- ) He must have used a backup – which is always a very good thing to have with audio.

As with video and stills I think you learn quickest and in the most depth if you force yourself into demanding situations rather than just experimenting at home with TV sets and radios and family pets :- ) A local amateur dramatics group doing rehearsals might work well – though you would have to manage their expectations very firmly so that they understand exactly why you are there.

My TASCAM works in the same way - you would not believe how many times I looked at the record sign to believe that it was actually recording (OCD!) :) As for taking the plunge, I think I'm going to buy the Sennheiser Wireless kit and a H4N - then I'll consider additional kit. If I was to buy the Sennheiser Wireless kit, that's going to be about £550, the H4N around £200, and then I'd be looking at getting a few lavs / recorders. Then a second Sachtler Ace. Fortunately, I can throw myself into the deep end, as I've already secured one wedding in the first week of August - for free, and I've offered myself for free to a number of other clients via a photographer, but I'm just waiting for feedback from them. I was quite clear that I wouldn't put a commercialised song on their video if they were going to post it online, but that I'd be willing to buy a song for them to use online from themusicbed.com if that was what they wanted to do... but then I didn't offer the ceremony etc. and now I'm thinking that might have been a mistake.

Sounds interesting! I have the opportunity to do school stuff, as I'm a teacher... but I really want to stay focused on doing weddings, as I'm interested in the storytelling aspect the most, along with creatively shooting a wedding.

would you recommend the H4N over TASCAM equivalents?

I have no personal experience with Tascams. I feel there has been some snootiness from audio professionals towards Zooms though not from working wedding professionals who were quick to identify their considerable benefits. I've had my H4n for at least 4 years and there wasn't as much choice around then. At that time its X-Y onboard mic configuration was a winner as was its capacity for tow XLR inputs. Oh and the metal socket in the back to accept standard male photographic 1/4”x20 screws as found on tripod plates, friction arms etc.

The H4n is silly cheap now what with the introduction of the Zoom H5. The H5 is a smaller version of the H6; my reaction has been “so what”.

Audio pros working in film and TV (other than reality shows) don't like recorders of these types partly because of what they call the noise floor. But in wedding work there is seldom if ever a moment of complete silence so slight noise from the recorder is irrelevant.

That sounds about right and I think you've helped me to consider the H4N along with the TASCAMs! :)

Definitely, and for the most part with NLEs, I'm guessing it's easy to take out too.

Noa will be pleased to know that I've just bought a recorder for the specific purpose of strapping to venue handheld mics :- ) Its the Olympus VN-733PC. It was on Amazon special deals at £40 today. There are all sorts of things wrong with it (only two Levels settings [though it appears to have an onboard Normalize function and Low Pass], no tripod bush etc) but in the right set of circumstances it should be a lifesaver – those being where there are multiple reception speakers who are impossible to lav up, who may pop up anywhere and at anytime, and there in no reliable feed from the DJ deck available. I have a GoPro velcro wrist strap which I can use to fasten it to a venue mic.

Hey, be careful not to assume that most weddings will be like the one you shot recently where all the stars and planets seemed to be in alignment :- ) And be very careful about income projections. Videography has a place in the sun at present rather like stills did a few years ago. But stills went from being a low paid job to a highly paid job then back to a low paid job in the space of about 7 years. Video may well prove to be the same. It still beats having to hold down a proper job though :- )

Pete

Nice purchase Pete! GoPro velcro wrist strap would be a great buy too by the sounds of it!!!

Hahaha I know!!! I await my first major problem with mixed excitement! :) I guess taking as many precautions as I could lead to a successful wedding - I visited the venue, visualised my movements, wrote a seven page plan of the day, which took almost a day to write and constantly thought of every situation... it was actually quite exhausting. What is a worry I guess, is that this is unmanageable and so it's bound to be the case that I come into problems in my next few weddings. I'll just have to see how it goes!!!

Woah, yeah I'll be careful. I am thinking that the average salary of a mildly successful videographer, who shoots the kind of weddings you all seem to do on a regular basis would be around £35,000 a year before taxes.

Would that be an accurate guesstimate?

Definitely!!! :D Mostly, I just want to make memories doing what I love!

Mark Von Lanken
June 12th, 2014, 09:57 AM
I have skimmed through the replies and you have been given good advice. There is not really just one right way to get audio at the wedding and reception. Some use wireless systems and some use pocket recorders for the vows.

I used wireless systems (Sennheiser) for for over 10 years. When making the move to DSLR in 2010 I switched over to using Yamaha C24s, which are now discontinued. A similar unit with lav mic from Giant Squid or others similar lav work great and cost a fraction of Sennheiser G3 systems. With a pocket recorder you never have wireless static or interference and can have 2-3 pocket recorders for the price of one Sennheiser G3.

For several years I have used a Zoom H4n to get a board feed from the DJ or band. I have the 3 audio possibilities (RCA, 1/4 inch and XLR) cables on one end and XLR on the other end. I use an XLR attenuator when the DJ or band gives me a line level feed that is too hot for the H4n.

I tell you this because when I had a really loud band, the signal was still too hot for the attenuator to handle. I use the Hosa ATT488 which does 20, 30, or 40 dB of attenuation. Earlier this year I bought a Tascam DR40 because it can handle line level, which it does wonderfully, without the attenuator. Another benefit of the DR40 is that it can record a backup track at -12dB, so you have a safety track in case the main track is too hot.

In addition to getting a feed from the board or powered speaker, during the reception, I place a Rode M3 on a mic stand in front of the DJ or band speakers. The M3 is built like a tank and you have the option to use an internal 9 volt battery or use phantom power, which the H4n and DR40 can supply.

For reception lighting I use Yongnuo YN600 LED 3200k-5500k lights on light stands. If you feel the YN600 is too big, you can remove the barn doors to make the foot print a little smaller or they also have a YN300 model which does a good job as well. If you have large dance floors the YN600 is brighter and has a wider spread.

Both models offer a 3200k-5500k as well as a 5500k only. I prefer the 3200k-5500k unit so if the reception is being lit with LED lights that are 5500k balanced you you can match it. If the lighting is mixed you can use a mix of the 3200K and 5500k LEDs in the Yongnuo to match the surroundings.

In addition to variable color temperatures the YN600 and YN300 come with wireless remotes to turn the light on or off as well a adjust the brightness. Having a variable color temp light with a dimmer is very beneficial for the wedding reception, but having a wireless remote makes it all that much more usable.

Okay for the price. You can find the Yongnuo lights on ebay or Amazon for about $75 for the YN300 and about $150 for the YN600. All you need to do is add Sony style batteries and a light stand.

Craig McKenna
June 15th, 2014, 09:30 AM
I have skimmed through the replies and you have been given good advice. There is not really just one right way to get audio at the wedding and reception. Some use wireless systems and some use pocket recorders for the vows.

I used wireless systems (Sennheiser) for over 10 years. When making the move to DSLR in 2010 I switched over to using Yamaha C24s, which are now discontinued. A similar unit with lav mic from Giant Squid or others similar lav work great and cost a fraction of Sennheiser G3 systems. With a pocket recorder you never have wireless static or interference and can have 2-3 pocket recorders for the price of one Sennheiser G3.

For several years I have used a Zoom H4n to get a board feed from the DJ or band. I have the 3 audio possibilities (RCA, 1/4 inch and XLR) cables on one end and XLR on the other end. I use an XLR attenuator when the DJ or band gives me a line level feed that is too hot for the H4n.

I tell you this because when I had a really loud band, the signal was still too hot for the attenuator to handle. I use the Hosa ATT488 which does 20, 30, or 40 dB of attenuation. Earlier this year I bought a Tascam DR40 because it can handle line level, which it does wonderfully, without the attenuator. Another benefit of the DR40 is that it can record a backup track at -12dB, so you have a safety track in case the main track is too hot.

In addition to getting a feed from the board or powered speaker, during the reception, I place a Rode M3 on a mic stand in front of the DJ or band speakers. The M3 is built like a tank and you have the option to use an internal 9 volt battery or use phantom power, which the H4n and DR40 can supply.

For reception lighting I use Yongnuo YN600 LED 3200k-5500k lights on light stands. If you feel the YN600 is too big, you can remove the barn doors to make the foot print a little smaller or they also have a YN300 model which does a good job as well. If you have large dance floors the YN600 is brighter and has a wider spread.

Both models offer a 3200k-5500k as well as a 5500k only. I prefer the 3200k-5500k unit so if the reception is being lit with LED lights that are 5500k balanced you you can match it. If the lighting is mixed you can use a mix of the 3200K and 5500k LEDs in the Yongnuo to match the surroundings.

In addition to variable color temperatures the YN600 and YN300 come with wireless remotes to turn the light on or off as well a adjust the brightness. Having a variable color temp light with a dimmer is very beneficial for the wedding reception, but having a wireless remote makes it all that much more usable.

Okay for the price. You can find the Yongnuo lights on ebay or Amazon for about $75 for the YN300 and about $150 for the YN600. All you need to do is add Sony style batteries and a light stand.

Thank you so much for this post, incredibly useful!!!

I am looking at investing around £1500 now - a second Sachtler Ace tripod (£500), a thousand on audio equipment and lighting. I'm going to use this thread to help with my investments. My next wedding is in the first week of August at the moment.

This should round up my equipment purchases, and I'll move on to sorting out my storage and eventual Mac Pro / iMac.

Excited. Thanks again to everyone who posted. This information is truly invaluable.