Is that not wide enough for you?

Sometimes it isnt really. I suppose I'm also at fault for not getting one of those 12mm 2.0's leaving me limited to my 14 2.5, which again just doesn't cut it for me sometimes. I work around it and all, but sometimes I wish I had a bit more options. I then quickly remember that my equipment cost a 1/4th of my associates canon stuff.

How experienced are you with full frame cameras? Have you owned/used one quite a bit so far?

Ive toyed around a bit with a friend of mines 5d. If the FF route wasn't so much more expensive I'd have probably went that way from the get go.
The affordability really pushed me into m4/3, my wedding work isn't full time (haven't made it that big yet). I'd like it to be. Heck I'd like a FS700 and a bunch of other gear if I could! :)

I have worked with aps-c sensor camera before and there a 14mm was sufficient for my needs but once I invested into m4/3 I too saw the 14mm f2.5 was not wide enough so I do understand where you are coming from. :)

I now have a olympus 12mm f2.0 and that one is just ok for my wide angle needs, Olympus will be working on a 7-14mm f2.8 coming for m4/3 and I guess it will be a expensive one but maybe worth the wait and investement, I have read that it will be released in 2015.

I used the Panasonic 7-14mm lens when I had my GH2 & it is a really great wide angle lens(14-28mm FF equivalent). The F/4 maximum aperture wouldn't be such a limitation on the OM-D, G6, GH3 or GH4 which all have better low light capability than the GH2.

Ive toyed around a bit with a friend of mines 5d. If the FF route wasn't so much more expensive I'd have probably went that way from the get go.

I fail to see why you are thinking in Full Frame terms then, when your experience with full frame is very limited. Are you sure 12mm for a normal sized room is not wide enough?

I fail to see why you are thinking in Full Frame terms then, when your experience with full frame is very limited. Are you sure 12mm for a normal sized room is not wide enough?

Ive watched quite a few videos shot by people online in which they breakdown and explain their lens choices for given moments, so it gives me an idea. That said, I do realize I lack experience so who knows for certain.

I fail to see why you are thinking in Full Frame terms then, when your experience with full frame is very limited. Are you sure 12mm for a normal sized room is not wide enough?

Do you really need experience with full frame? a gh3 has a 2x crop compared to full frame, so a 12mm is a 24mm on full frame, you just multiply by 2 to have a reference. Fact is that you can go much wider on a full frame and have faster lenses available. Eventhough 12mm on m4/3 is wide enough for me for most purposes I have had occasions where I wished I had the 7-14mm on my gh3, I only find the f4 a bit too slow, I will see what the Olympus 7-14 f2.8 will cost but if it's not too expensive that lens will be on my wishlist.

Fact is that you can go much wider on a full frame and have faster lenses available.
Not a lot of affordable f0.95 lenses for full frame, last I checked.

I've had very good luck using a SpeedBooster with the Tokina 11-16/2.8 and Sigma 10-20/3.5 UWA zooms on MFT... that yields very useable ~8-12/2 and 7-14/2.5 lenses (not to mention other good options). That they become manual focus only doesn't bother me with a UWA, just set it hyperfocal and go.

Not sure if this lens is for full frame but in order to get the same field of view of a Sigma 20mm f/1.8 would require a 10mm f1.8 for the same field of view on m4/3, can you use this len swith a speedbooster and how much would you gain? Also, would this lens on a canon or panasonic camera with speedbooster retain it's autofocus functionality?

Not a lot of affordable f0.95 lenses for full frame, last I checked.

I've had very good luck using a SpeedBooster with the Tokina 11-16/2.8 and Sigma 10-20/3.5 UWA zooms on MFT... that yields very useable ~8-12/2 and 7-14/2.5 lenses (not to mention other good options). That they become manual focus only doesn't bother me with a UWA, just set it hyperfocal and go.

tokina 11-16 and speedbooster, best solution.

tokina 11-16 and speedbooster, best solution.

Unless you happen to like your image quality. Focal reducers are not new, and yet they haven't come into wide use. Also, there is no such thing as a free lunch. So test it first. I have used one on an FS700 and did not like the results at all.

Do you really need experience with full frame? a gh3 has a 2x crop compared to full frame, so a 12mm is a 24mm on full frame, you just multiply by 2 to have a reference.

But if you have never owned or used a full frame 35mm stills camera extensively, then isn't it a bit ridiculous to bring it up? Unless you previously were using a 5D Mark II or other full frame still camera extensively on shoots and know what 16 or 24 or 50mm looks like on it and need to replicate what you are used to seeing, then you're not thinking in those terms and all, and are instead just tossing it out there just for the sake of being negative.

So, you seem to have extensive experience with m4/3 and full frame? Why don't you explain then what the differences are between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view. Then we might learn something because at this moment you are only saying we don't know and that's not very positive either :).

So, you seem to have extensive experience with m4/3 and full frame?

No, I have extensive experience with 1/2", m4/3, and APS-C.

Why don't you explain then what the differences are between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view.

I will be more explicit for you. If you have shot for years on a 7D, then you know how a 24mm lens looks on the APS-C sized sensor. You don't go to yourself, "Hmm, this room needs a good wide. I would shoot on a 15.6mm lens in full frame, so I would need a 24mm lens for my 7D in here."

No one does that (for some reason, APS-C gets a huge pass on this constant translation). Instead you would know what a 24mm lens looks like on your 7D and have a good guess as to whether it was wide enough, or if you needed to pull out an 11-16mm.

However, for m4/3, is constantly compared to full frame by people who don't use it and don't know instinctively what focal length they would need in the first place for full frame. What does 16mm look like in that room on a 5D Mark II? Do you know?

You are still not answering my question Gary and with a man of your expertise that should be an easy one, no? :)

So I"ll ask again: what is the differences between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view.

I assumed it is the same, only you keep saying I shouldn't assume as I don't have experience with full frame and that's not an answer, so, what's the difference?

You are still not answering my question Gary and with a man of your expertise that should be an easy one, no? :)

I'm sorry you still don't understand. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Well, you reacted on James his comment that 12mm on M4/3 is 24mm on a full frame camera, if that would be a wrong assumption you did not correct it but instead you kept saying that if he or anyone who makes such a statement and has no experience with a full frame camera, it would be ridiculous to bring it up, because they don't know what they are talking about.

Then it appears you have not worked with full frame camera's either so why would I even listen to you? :D

Then it appears you have not worked with full frame camera's either so why would I even listen to you?

So you disagree that those who, like me, don't work extensively with Full Frame cameras cannot instinctively visualize what the field of view of, say, a 24mm lens will look like at a specific location on, say, a 5D Mark III as opposed to a smaller sensor size that they routinely work with?

So if I have shot with a m4/3 camera for the last three years, and have used a 5D Mark III on a single job, then you disagree that I would not step into a room and say to myself, "Well, I would need 24mm on a 5D Mark III to get the wide shot that I want in here, so I would need a 12mm lens on the GH4 that I am using."

Do you disagree that people with little/no experience with Full Frame 35mm photography-sized sensors instinctively visualize the full frame field of view that you get on specific lenses?

This conversation is leading nowhere, got better things to do... :)

I have read somewhere that the a7s price is being announced tomorrow? Not sure if that was a reliable source, maybe a fun guessing game, see who gets closest, I say it will be 2600 dollar body only.

This conversation is leading nowhere, got better things to do... :)

Oh, so you do agree that you think in terms of APS-C when picking a lens for your NEX-EA50?

I don't have a nex-ea50, take a shot at the a7s price instead, much more fun.

take a shot at the a7s price instead, much more fun.

I will estimate $2999. Just enough to undercut 5D Mark III.

Gary, let me try and explain.

I've been using my 20mm 1.7 pancake lens on my panasonic gh2 for about two years now. I have a pretty good understanding from this time spent using it, if its going to be wide enough for a certain room or situation.

That said, I'm also well aware that the 20mm thats advertised on the lens, I'm actually seeing 40mm in camera due to the 2x crop factor.

I'm also well aware, due to the magic of the internet, that if I had a 20mm lens on say a full frame camera such as the 5d, that instead of having 40mm I would indeed have 20mm, which is significantly wider than 40mm.

So whenever my 20mm (effectively 40mm) lens isn't wide enough, I say to myself: "darn, wish I could get wider like those full frame folk". Which leads me to my comments about my struggles to get wide - as I know someone with a 5d can pick up a Canon EF 14mm f/2.8L II USM Lens and get a nice, wide and fast 14mm with autofocus and total electronic control, whereas the best I can do is get a 12mm 2.0 which turns into 24mm, or a some kind of tokina 11-16 plus speed booster combination that will get me there but without electronic controls.

I then remind myself that I do benefit in this due to the beauty of my solution costing a 1/4 of what the full frame system costs, albeit at a loss of light sensitivity.

You're looking too much into the crop factor/FF equivalent. Think in terms of FOV. better yet, use abels' tool AbelCine - Field of View Calculator (http://www.abelcine.com/fov/)

plug in the af100 for m43. then compare all you like.

Also, there is no literal crop factor on your 20mm lens, as it's designed for m43, if you use a 20mm EF lens, then the sensor is cropping the image circle. this is an important distinction because it accounts for differences in the lens quality at center vs edge.

Generally speaking, anything above 60 degrees is considered wide, 80-90degrees, very wide, 90+, superwide.

most folks in most cases don't need superwide. i've used aps-c and FF for several years, the majority of the time the 28 was my preferred wide on FF even though i had wider glass, and 18 on 1.6x is plenty wide for most situations. If i needed wider, yes i'd use the tokina 12-24 1.6x lens, but i'd say i use that lens maybe 5-10% of the time

But again, everything comes down to what you're actually shooting... it sounds like you're basing your thoughts off of full frame envy(no slight intended) instead of looking critically at your situation and figuring out what you actually need for what you have. f4 may be half the light of f2.8, but if you're really in that tight of a space, literally just a few watts of light would bridge and surpass that gap.

You do own some lights, yes?

It's not just the Field of View that must be considered when comparing Full Frame vs Micro Four Third. While a 12mm on MFT has similar FoV to 24mm on FF to get the same Depth of Field the MFT lens will need to be two stops wider & it is in fact impossible for the MFT to match the FF DoF if the aperture on the FF is less than F/4 as there is no 12mm MFT lens available with an aperture greater than F/2..

Hallo

I just ordered A7S,yet I am not interested in shooting 4k,but Ninja Blade mounted on it i have 1080X1920 50p.be a second video camera with C100.I had GH3 and was fantastic, just the hdmi output was 50 i.I think to buy a cheaper version like metabonce EF CANON,if you can help me with some suggestions which model you tested and is ok.

Thanks

I'm just about ready to put an order in for the A7S.

One question - what lenses are folks planning to go with? Its a bit of a joke that Sony have so few lenses for this.

Since I already have canon glass, I'm most likely going to stick with them and the metabones adaptor.

With the electronic view finder - I'd be tempted to buy IS lenses and try a lot more handheld shooting. I know others who have gone that way. It gives a lot more flexibility on the wedding day - especially during bridal prep and photoshoot.

Does canon have no 50mm range in IS though? All I see is 24mm, 35mm and 100mm.

Are you sure IS works on canon lenses when you use adapter and attach it to the sony? I thought that only will work on sony lenses.

Edit: maybe this article can help you on lens decission?: http://briansmith.com/sony-a7-a7r-lens-mount-adapters/

I guess I just assumed so Noa. The Metabones adaptor for it is a 'smart' adapter which connects up the aperture control. I assumed that the IS features would function also. Maybe I'm wrong?

Yea, just read the metabones spec - IS is supported.

Can someone place a link to the metabones adapter details? - I might just trade in my 5D3 as the A7S has better focus aids - the one thing that stops my using my 5D3 more!

Here it is Peter

Metabones® (http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB-EF-E-BM4)

I've pre-ordered the A7S this morning!

Thanks Clive - I already have the metabones EF - NEX Speedbooster so I'm guessing this will also work?

Am I correct in thinking that you have to use the metabones with the A7S in APS-C mode? If so pretty much reducing it to a similar performance to my EA50 :/

I know that this Metabones adaptor is 'smart' as in, it can control the lens aperture via the camera controls. But are other aspects lost if you opt for a 'dumb' adaptor? Like Focus peaking?

I'm considering the Holy Manta adaptor and built in variable ND. Of course EF-S lenses can no longer be an option - but I could switch to Rokinon cines.

The Holy Manta looks pretty nifty, and nice to have one ND regardless of how many different lenses and filter threads you want to put on.

I have been considering that holy manta as well but like you said you need to use full manual lenses on it which would mean investing in yet another set of lenses, currently I just ramp the shutter way high if I shoot in bright sunlight with my 12-35mm lens, only if I use my 25mm f1.4 or 75mm f1.8 I will add a nd filter.

We have both in our rentals department right now... no NEW inventory at this time... anyone in Austin want to come in and complete a somewhat scientific test for DVinfo?

Clive, just wondering where you pre-ordered the A7s from and if they gave you a date? I've been considering it for a good while now.

Thanks, M.

Hey Michael! Didn't know you posted on here!

I ordered from CVP.com. They emailed me post order saying

"...currently not in stock. We will now contact our supplier and find to the delivery lead time and we will email you with the details as soon as we have received a response."

Which I reckon is simply a generic response for out of stock items. Who knows if they will ever give me an expected time frame.

What I do know is that reports suggest that shipping in the US has begun, and over week earlier than was intended. Hopefully it comes earlier in UK too!

OK, so I just emailed CVP to cancel my pre-order. Why? Digitalrev have just begun selling the A7S for immediate shipping at £1750!!!

Is that not excluding taxes, customduties etc...? You are cheaper off ordering from the Netherlands, it's still on pre-order there as well but unless you need the camera yesterday some weeks waiting won't put you out of business. :)

Clive; having had the possibility to shoot with a gh4 last wedding one thing that crossed my mind when using this camera is how well it would match up with my other camera as I consider that an important aspect. If I combine gh4 and gh3 footage I need to sharpen up the gh3 footage in post, in that case it can be matched though you still do see a small difference, but not in a way that I can't use both together.

I believe you have a 6d? I have seen some more a7s footage and in 1080p it's a pretty sharp camera, have you considered the problems you might get matching it with your 6d or any other camera you have? .

OK, so I just emailed CVP to cancel my pre-order. Why? Digitalrev have just begun selling the A7S for immediate shipping at £1750!!!

Clive did you receive your A7s? I'm still thinking that this might be a better alternative than using my 5D for ease of focussing but I have a big investment in Canon glass so need to know of any pitfalls in using EF lenses with this camera.

Cheers

Pete

Clive did you receive your A7s? I'm still thinking that this might be a better alternative than using my 5D for ease of focussing but I have a big investment in Canon glass so need to know of any pitfalls in using EF lenses with this camera.

Cheers

Pete

I'd also like to hear about this too. I'm on the fence between the GH4 and A7s for 4K work I have coming up. I'm leaning towards the GH4 as a body simply because of in camera 4K recording rather than needing the external recorder for the Sony. OTOH I'm not ready to invest in lots of M43 glass and have lots of Canon glass for the C100 I'd love to be able to use, including the Samyang manual lenses.

One thing to consider is price, as I understand a Atomos Shogun 4K will be around 2k which brings the camera and 4K recorder to a whopping 4,5k excl lenses.

One thing to consider is price, as I understand a Atomos Shogun 4K will be around 2k which brings the camera and 4K recorder to a whopping 4,5k excl lenses.

That's a good point well made Noa, though I'm planning on buying a Shogun at some point anyway for general monitoring and capture of HD to ProRes from the C100.

The shogun screen is so much nicer than the Ninja I have now and also provides waveforms and vector scopes still not available in most cameras. This helps big time for exposure and white balance on set - when you have time to do it that is - though it's unlikely to be most people's idea of a run & gun wedding camera / combo.

Actually, I'm holding off until Canon announces the 7D2 which I'm hoping will also have native 1:1 4K, internal 4K recording and 4K output via HDMI. We'll see! They have the 1Dc to protect.

Actually, I'm holding off until Canon announces the 7D2 which I'm hoping will also have native 1:1 4K, internal 4K recording and 4K output via HDMI.

They won't do this. The 7D Mark II will have the same features as the 5D Mark III in APS-C form with Dual Pixel Auto Focus.

I'll be surprised if the 5d mark IV doesn't have 4k; like the GH4 its got the right number for it and it makes sense to introduce this feature first for that level of camera rather than the one below it. Probably got a bit of a wait mind you.

Well, I'm guessing that we'll be staying with what we have for a bit, then, while we wait for something like the A7s, with built-in 4K recording, and a follow-focus, and my own unicorn, please, too.

Seriously, I don't want to spend $4500 per camera for the A7s' 4K (camera+Shogun), which I would have considered over the GH4 because of its' low-light ability.

Maybe now I'll wait and see what Sony does with its new curved sensor they patented.

Or if Canon does anything really useful with its announcement.

if only canon would take a tip from sony and make all their new cameras with the EOS-M mount.....

They won't do this. The 7D Mark II will have the same features as the 5D Mark III in APS-C form with Dual Pixel Auto Focus.

Yeah, I know, but we can hope, and it's not that long to wait until september so probably worth holding off to see what else emerges around photokina. 4K is where things are headed and there have been a few times this year I could have used it to great effect. And is it so wrong to want something with a global shutter ? Arrgghh!!! (no I don't want the Black Magic 4K)