Hi Jim,
I think you're a bit confused about how the alternative lens choices for the CION are accomplished. I'll try to clarify this. The entire lens mount may be swapped out on the CION. This is not just an adapter connected to the existing PL mount, but rather an entirely new lens mount. You can see images of this on the following web page:
AJA Announces CION Support From Top Camera Accessory Manufacturers - Top Stories - News - AJA Video Systems (http://www.aja.com/en/news/top-stories/274)

This means that virtually any type of lens mount may be created for use with the CION (as long as the lens mount and the associated lenses offer coverage of the sensor). Swapping the lens mount is accomplished via four bolts so switching between mounts is pretty painless. I appreciate that not everyone will want to use PL mount lenses so the camera was designed from the beginning to accommodate using other lens mounts.

I hope this is a helpful clarification,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems

Jon-
Thanks for the clarification......we've had many clients who are planning to buy but were a bit confused on the lens options and were concerned that 3rd party adapters were not going to work 100%.

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

As I'm sure you're aware, I wrote an article recently here at DVInfo that was highly critical of the Cion demo footage that was released a short while ago. While I appreciate your post here, I find it odd that you spent so much time stating that the Cion was not designed to compete with the Sony FS7. That may be the case, but given that they are coming out at approximately the same time (assuming the Cion will ship as promised, in the very near future) at roughly the same price point it's hard to see how they wouldn't compete, even if they aren't meant to.

The FS7 seems to be a mature camera. I'm had some hands on time with a pre-production prototype and while some software bugs are being ironed out it's a very mature camera. It has a number of looks built in, including Sony's attempt to emulate film (by taking some imaging cues from Alexa), and while I don't believe it offers ProRes, cameras aren't generally designed with an emphasis on post. Their footage should be easy to work with in post, but the primary purpose of a camera is to make it simple for someone like myself to create great images. Sony has that down, but so far you've shown me no evidence that the Cion can do the same.

I'm not talking about making images that are comparable to the FS7, but simply nice images, period. The demo reel that I saw was clearly shot by someone who was not all that experienced in shooting sophisticated images along the lines of what I would use the camera to produce, and there was an awful lot in the images that I found distasteful: magenta flesh tones, clipped highlights with rings around them, minimal shadow detail, blues that shifted green, etc.

Beyond that there was much that wasn't shown at all: high contrast imagery, tungsten-lit environments, etc. The impression I came away with was that the camera doesn't handle highlights gracefully, may have difficulty resolving color accurately under tungsten light, the color science is still very much a work in progress, and the stated dynamic range of 12 stops may be optimistic.

For a company that's determined to offer a camera that's a game changer, it appears that very little money or effort was used to produce a reel that would convince us of this.

Given all that, the last thing on my mind is whether it allows me to record ProRes or not, or whether its ergonomics are satisfying. First and foremost I want pretty pictures. I'll take an Alexa covered in spikes that records to 8-track cassettes long before I'd settle for a perfectly-balanced mink fur-covered GoPro that records to ProRes.

So, like it or not, Cion is in competition with the Sony FS7. Your task is to prove to us not that it can shoot the same images as the FS7, but that it can shoot pleasing images at all. So far I've seen no test footage that convinces me that Cion has cleared basic technical and artistic hurdles, which--in my mind--is necessary not for the camera to compete with the FS7, but for it to be considered a viable professional option at all.

When can we expect to see a new round of footage, shot by a professional cinematographer, that shows us how the camera responds favorably in all the circumstances I've outlined above?

Agree 100% with all of that Art.
Steve

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems

Many thanks to you, Jon, for being here and taking the time. Much appreciated!

Thank you for sharing your opinion with us.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems
I apologize for Art's tone.

I may or may not buy a Cion (there are several contenders, but I am certainly in the market for a new camera in this range), but it never ceases to surprise me how personally some people take the production of a broadcast videocamera.

I promise that, unless you come and punch me in the stomach, I will not treat you like you've punched me in the stomach.

I appreciate your candor and verbose responses to this forum, I find them insightful, and if anything, the look behind the curtain moves me closer to a Cion and farther from an FS7, Ursa, etc.

Something I've learned the hard way over the years, try not to read too much into any post regarding its tone. At the end of the day, it's just text without the benefit of inflection and sometimes it's easy to misinterpret the emotion behind it. It's certainly possible to be critical and cordial at the same time, and I think Art does that very well.

Agree with that 100% too Chris! :)
Steve

Have there been any new additions to the EF mounts being made for the Cion? I've been in contact with Wooden Camera and checked out MTF to see what their EF mounts for the Cion are like. Both are passive. I'm not sure what the use of these would be. How would you change your f-stop if these are not electronic? What is the point of having a passive EF mount? Maybe I'm missing something.

Hold on, I just found that MFT does make an active version:

https://www.lensadaptor.com/mtf-effect-canon-ef-aja-cion-mount

Sorry to be posting serially here, updating my own posts, but it seems that MFT's active EF adaptor for the Cion may require another part to work:

https://www.lensadaptor.com/mtf-effect-control-unit-2

I guess I'm going to have to contact MFT directly to see how this all works, but it's looking like an active EF mount for the Cion may wind up costing somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500. That seems a bit extreme to me and I agree with others on this thread that a camera in this price range should be prioritizing a mount for lenses much cheaper than PL lenses. The point of this camera, it seems, is to provide a quality interchangeable lens camera for the run and gun crowd, who generally don't have Amira level budgets. Both PL lenses and these 3rd party mounts seem to defeat that purpose.

Sorry to say, but I call it's all vaporware.
Although I truly enjoyed reading Jon's lengthy post, to me this camera now seems even more like vaporware. Most everything was covered in Jon's post (sans his childhood pet) but yet no shipping date. I'm too old for sale pitches like these (deja vu all over again, Bill Southworth, etc.). Sorry.

Well, since AJA just announced an actual shipping date ("end of December") for the Cion, I hereby apologize for my previous (above) posts. If this camera is as good as it is beautiful, AJA certainly hit a home run here.

-- peer

This looks like a great camera and they had me until I went to the specs. Only 60fps in 1080p then they lost me, too bad.

The Cion is now shipping:

AJA CION Ships Today | Film and Digital Times (http://www.fdtimes.com/2014/12/22/aja-cion-ships-today/)

https://www.aja.com/

This looks like a great camera and they had me until I went to the specs. Only 60fps in 1080p then they lost me, too bad.

It might mark me as a naif (and it's probably accurate) but why is 60 such a deal breaker these days?
Seems like it wasn't only a couple years ago.

Murray,
It might not be for you which is great. But, for me I need at least 120fps for fast action sports that my clients demand, 240fps is even better. Beyond that the camera looks nice.

I do have to say that camera looks well thought out. Be very interested what the all up cost is to have one ready to go without glass and batteries.

Murray,
It might not be for you which is great. But, for me I need at least 120fps for fast action sports that my clients demand, 240fps is even better. Beyond that the camera looks nice.

AFAIK it CAN do 240fps in 2K and 120 fps in 4K, the catch being that you need an external recorder to make that work, which adds non-trivially to the cost ($2k).

Funny, I see 120 @ 4k but no 240 @ 2k. And no pre-record cache. https://www.aja.com/en/products/cion#techspecs

So the camera is $9K then VF for $2K, then recorder for $2K, so $13-14K for base camera. At that point it is only media and glass. So direct competitor to Sony F5? Not the FS7

Murray,
It might not be for you which is great. But, for me I need at least 120fps for fast action sports that my clients demand, 240fps is even better. Beyond that the camera looks nice.

Oh I don't doubt there's reasons of various sorts. I'm waiting for some competition for the FS700 myself.
I was just idly wondering. It's something I've seen growing quite a bit around here the past couple of years. Every time a new camera comes along people look at the specs and check if it does at least 60frames at 1080 or over. If not, no sale.
I guess its just ever rising standards at work. I'm a bit out of touch so I was just curious if it was anything specific.

So the camera is $9K then VF for $2K, then recorder for $2K, so $13-14K for base camera. At that point it is only media and glass. So direct competitor to Sony F5? Not the FS7
I'm trying hard to like the FS7, but the Cion has that "big boy camera" look that the FS7 doesn't. My kingdom for something I can shoot with on a tripod, then pop onto my shoulder when we need a handheld shot, not have to fetch a shoulder mount and fumble to attach it.

Mike, I am not really sure you know what you are saying by experience? "Big Boy Camera"? I have a FS7 right in front of me and I can go on and off the tripod to shoulder without having to do a thing. Just like I could with my F55, F800, PMW-500, EX3, EX1, C300. All of these cameras can be set up to go tripod to shoulder without having to do a thing.

And with the FS7 I do it with out any additional gear except the battery extension since I prefer to use PagLink V-Lock batteries. Of course I have to add audio and glass but the rest is there and I can switch it to 180fps quickly and then go 4K quickly and do all of it on the media inside the camera.

I think the Cion is a nice camera from what I see, but lets keep to the facts and not add hearsay from the web.

Mike, I forgot one. MTF PL to E adapter I have added which I forgot to mention. Using Sony E glass or EF glass to me is just not what I am going to do. I want PL quality manual glass. Now, saying that I will give the Sony 28-135 a go.

So the Cion has it over the FS7 being a PL mount camera from the get to. And as I said in my early post on this thread if they had 180-240 fps in 1080p in the camera I might have gone that direction. It does look very nice for hand held work. But the only way to tell is go a 12-14 hr day of hard hand held work to really know how the camera works. A rental would solve that one.

I think the Cion is a nice camera from what I see, but lets keep to the facts and not add hearsay from the web.
I've held the Cion and the FS7. I think the Cion looks like more of a "big boy camera" and the FS7 looks more like something you'd see on a student film. That's not hearsay from the web, it's my opinion as a guy who is in the market for a camera in this range. I understand that on the inside they both have pros and cons, and that they both create a good looking image, but the fact of the matter is that I am not judged solely on the final product, but also on a layman's impression of the equipment I'm holding.

My apology Mike,

You are more then entitled to your opinion an have more experience with the two then I do since I have not held the Cion. So mybe I am the one with hearsay. Hope you make the right decision for your work an it works well for you, they are both great options.

Paul,

Wrung my hands for the last few weeks. Couldn't decide WHAT to do. FS7, Cion, Ursa... Needed a tax writeoff before the end of the year. At the end of the day... decided to buy two new computers and upgrade to Creative Cloud for editing, and do nothing for cameras this year.

The one thing you can guarantee about cameras is that whatever I really wanted last year... They'll roll out somethingI want even more next year!

Mike,

I was in the same position an sold my PMW-300 an went for the FS7 in Dec. Having owned the F55 I am very happy so far with the FS7. Will know for sure in the next two months after a bunch of jobs. I did give the Cion a close look. Be nice to try one.

Early 2014 I went for the new MacPro, Pegasus RAID, with a few new monitors, an switched from FCP7 to PP CC. Took a while to get the computer an PP to work well together but now I am very happy with the change. Hope you find the charge suits you also.

It is silly how often we change cameras.

Hi all,
High frame rate is very important to use advantages of the camera. but CION can only up to 60fps to own internal recorder. my questions:
1-) Is there any plan to produce external AJA 4K RAW recorder up to 120fps?
2-) Is it possible to record HD or 2K 120-240fps with a firmware update of CION?

- I've found Codex Onboard S+ it can record Canon Cinema RAW 4K 120fps, and they have Canon, ARRI, RED and SONY workflows but not AJA RAW?
- Another 4K raw recorder is Convergentdesign it supports Canon, ARRI and Sony also but not AJA.
- Blackmagic can record also RAW on self.
It looks AJA needs an own RAW recorder for CION immediately, right?

Hi all,

- I've found Codex Onboard S+ it can record Canon Cinema RAW 4K 120fps, and they have Canon, ARRI, RED and SONY workflows but not AJA RAW?
- Another 4K raw recorder is Convergentdesign it supports Canon, ARRI and Sony also but not AJA.
- Blackmagic can record also RAW on self.
It looks AJA needs an own RAW recorder for CION immediately, right?

I figure Aja is probably planning its own recorder that supports raw to go with the Cion, but the Atomos Shogun is in theory also going to be a candidate, though it's uncertain as to when they'll get raw recording implemented and released.

I don't think Shogun can do it in the future, because it has only one SDI input supported 12G-SDI. it is not enough for CION aja-raw 120fps.

Here's a FD article on a tour of the Cion Factory and interviews with AJA President Nick Rashby and CION designer Jon Thorn

AJA CION Factory Tour | Film and Digital Times (http://www.fdtimes.com/2015/01/13/aja-cion-factory-tour/)

The more I read about this camera the more it is of interest. I think I will rent one from Abel once they have it.

I too bought the FS7 and very happy with it. I think it has 3 big advantages over the Cion. 1. It's better in low light. 2. It's lighter and has a better form factor for handheld. 3. It does more in the way of slow motion, which is great for me since I do a lot of sports.

That said, I'm very interested in the BlackMagic Ursa mini coming out soon. I like the simplicity of their menus and their look.

All of the above should be caveated by admitting that I'm more of a director, one-man band, than DP for hire.

I think the thread creator should change the title:
Aja has an $4995 s35 4k camera, the Cion. :)

I think the thread creator should change the title:
Aja has an $4995 s35 4k camera, the Cion. :)

I agree -- Aja is certainly a cool underdog company that deserves some exposure & success.

-- peer

Having worked at Grass Valley group in the '80s and '90s, I used to work with the founder and many of their engineers. Great group of smart, hard-working people! They deserve our support. :)

Funny, I was looking at buying a Cion this morning, just because it's so beautiful (to me) and the price is great (at least in US dollars) and found this thread.

But I probably won't... I'll buy another FS7.

People seem to have largely forgotten the Cion. It is an honest effort. Looks beautiful. For narratives, I am not sure why people don't buy it.

People seem to have largely forgotten the Cion. It is an honest effort. Looks beautiful. For narratives, I am not sure why people don't buy it.

1) Most people base their decisions on specs, not image quality
2) Most of the reviews of the Cion were made before AJA released version 1.2 of the Cion firmware, and with v1.1 the image quality just wasn't there. AJA made a major blunder letting that firmware out into the wild. (It had some other issues also, for example not being able to record 12-bit, limited instead to 10-bit ProRes...

AJA made some serious blunders in the launch, probably because they were trying to get the camera out before Black Magic hit the industry over the head again... but now we have both the new 4.6K sensor imminent (which was quite a surprise coming from BMD, as I'm sure everyone here will recall), and the Kinemax is getting some surprisingly positive results in Geoff Boyle's testing, and we have the Apertus coming along... in the wake of the Ursa Mini 4.6K announcement, I wouldn't have even considered a Cion without the large discount over the summer...

I didn't buy one because they wouldn't let me try one with their "Try it for a week" deal.
They did let a (less qualified, less working) acquaintance have one for 10 days though.
Bought a Blackmagic 4k instead.

I don't think that they understand the production side of filmmaking particularly well.

A bit like Black Magic in that regard, who thought that the aluminum bricks were a great design, ergonomically... they were surprised that everyone who bought one of those bricks rigged it to make it usable, or just used it exclusively on a tripod... but AJA should have consulted with actual cinematographers before releasing their camera. It's going to be a tough road for them now, and with the KineMAX 6K coming soon along with the C300 MKII, Red Raven, and BMD 4.6K, the waters will be bloody, to say the least. :)

I am a Sony loyal and am ready to try the Cion. Anyone in RI area have one?

An article about a Cion shoot.

Ali?s AJA Asprey Films | Film and Digital Times (http://www.fdtimes.com/2015/10/13/alis-aja-asprey-films/)

I am a Sony loyal and am ready to try the Cion. Anyone in RI area have one?

If we were local, I could help you out with that... hopefully you'll find someone local who has one, possibly an AJA dealer. One of the local dealers let me demo one.

No worry I have one coming by on Thursday. My main concern is no ND. No time to add and remove filters so I will see how it goes on Wed.

Spent four hours with Keith yesterday going over the camera. Very impressive camera.

I will be spending some quality time with the camera after an onslaught of jobs is finished and look forward to the experience. After that time I will post a more detailed report on my site and link to it from here.

A company that listens to the end user, what a concept.

There's new firmware announced at NAB:

“Our new firmware update and promo were created in direct response to community feedback. CION v1.3 offers a more gentle roll off of highlights, and a greater level of detail in the blacks, while the new promo makes the camera even more accessible to shooters looking to capture stunning footage,” said Nick Rashby, President, AJA Video Systems. “We’ve seen great adoption of CION from the commercial and industrial production community and we look forward to getting this update into our customers’ hands.”

The new V1.3 gamma modes can be seen here: https://www.aja.com/en/products/cion

The video:

CION V1.3 Firmware Images Reel on Vimeo