Daylight outdoor imagery seems reliably good with my XA20, but I am increasingly frustrated with indoor and other low contrast type shooting situations.
In particular, the auto WB seems awful- particularly in comparison with my Sony CX 760.
Even with manual WB adjustment the color seems off.
Often the image on the LCD monitor seems rather flat & washed out, making it even more difficult to sort out what I am actually capturing.
On my Sony CX cams the color balance is excellent, the LCD images "pop", and generally, what I see is what I get, no matter what the lighting situation.
I used the XA 10 for a couple of years and do not remember having these problems, or noticing such a dramatic difference between the Canon and my Sony's.
Is this just my poor memory, or has Canon really missed out on something with the XA20???
I'm thinking of selling the XA20, but I love the small size and I need the pro audio inputs.
I'm not sure what I would replace it with.
Seems like Canon has captured that niche with the XA10/20.

I would expect an accurate camcorder to produce a low contrast (neutral) image from a low contrast scene.

I used a TM700 to shot some reduced light evening footage a few years ago. When watching it later I at first thought, wow, what a jump-up-and-smack-you image, untill it opccurred to me that the image was not what I saw in real life, and not what I needed for the project. Can't speak to the CX760.

Daylight outdoor imagery seems reliably good with my XA20, but I am increasingly frustrated with indoor and other low contrast type shooting situations.
In particular, the auto WB seems awful- particularly in comparison with my Sony CX 760.
Even with manual WB adjustment the color seems off. . . . I'm thinking of selling the XA20, but I love the small size and I need the pro audio inputs. I'm not sure what I would replace it with. Seems like Canon has captured that niche with the XA10/20.

did you actually sell it? is it for sale?

did you actually sell it? is it for sale?

Not yet- I'm still not sure what I'm going to do.
I'm mostly whining...
I had a day-time shoot at an indoor horse arena with a translucent roof dome the other day.
It was a bit of a crap-shoot getting good looking shots with the XA 20, primarily due to white balance issues.
Again, I just don't recall having these problems with the XA 10.

Robert I was never so glad to sell anything as I was my XA20. I absolutley hated white balancing the camera indoors. In some rooms it was fine, but in many churches and reception halls I couldn't do it.

Once I had three people help me try and find a WB setting in a church, no one could do it. It was horrible.

Most people are very happy with the camera, and some have suggested the problems were user error. My XA10s are much better.

BTW, I have an XA10 for sale here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/private-classifieds/523214-canon-xa10-sony-wa-adapter-rode-videomic-32gb-sd-card.html

Jeff:
What camcorder did you switch to?

Have you considered the new XF200?

Scrolling through the reviews of the XA20 at B&H, several reviewers praised the white balancing options for indoor shooting. Not sure what to think. Overall rating was very high. The XF200 looks very interesting to me.

As the saying goes: "One man's meat is another man's poison."
That is why we have choices.

Don:

Have you had problems setting white balance indoors?

No significant white balance issues. Most of my XA20 shoots have been outdoors with various mixes of day and artificial lights.

Richard, my problems were not had by everyone, and were only reported by me and a couple of other people. The WB issues for me were occasional, not every shoot. When things were spot on, the footage looked very nice. The problem is when it was off I couldn't color correct it well. I spent days trying to fix one wedding and it never came out satisfactorily for me.

Luckily for us, there is a new crop of larger sensor camcorders coming, led by Sony. I'm looking at the CX900 with the 1" sensor and it's 4K sibling the AX100.

My problems have been similar to Jeff's- hit or miss, I never know

...and it never came out satisfactorily for me.

Was the client satisfied?

Auto WB is always hit and miss and unusable where there are predominant room colors or colored light changes like at some receptions. Just think about it - auto WB tries to make the predominant tone white, e.g. point it at a blue card or wall and it will set a higher temperature - the blue turns paler in your shots. WB doesn't have to be accurate to the nearest degree K. With maybe just a few test shots and a bit of experience you'll be able to judge close enough to get a proper result.

To emphasize Don's point about "another man's poison", there is a thread going in Industry News where someone can't wait to get rid of their Sony AX100.

Auto WB is always hit and miss and unusable where there are predominant room colors or colored light changes like at some receptions. Just think about it - auto WB tries to make the predominant tone white, e.g. point it at a blue card or wall and it will set a higher temperature - the blue turns paler in your shots. WB doesn't have to be accurate to the nearest degree K. With maybe just a few test shots and a bit of experience you'll be able to judge close enough to get a proper result.

I agree, AWB should be left as the last option on any camera, but there is something particularly wrong with the auto , and the 2 sets of the XA20. Shooting sports at night the only reliable way is to visually set the Kelvin temperature (not that difficult after all) and leave it there, avoiding any camera interpretation. The other issue I have with the XA20 is the shutter speed :1/100 is a bit slow and 1/250 is too dark at night (pushing the gain results in nasty noise at night). I'd appreciate the good old 1/125 or 1/120 , strange it was left out in the XA10/20). No idea why... Any idea why?

I too have constant problems white balancing this camera. What color settings do people find give the most consistent results. I too like the lok of the AX100 but £1700 with no XLR input, seems a bit stiff to me.

James put the temperature yourself: it takes a second. select the K value that you like. ANY camera's interpretation of the white balance is not reliable. The XA20 gets it right only if I put a grey card and zoom in all the way. Not white, grey (12% better than 18%). But I can't do that all the time. So come on guys... to set the K value manually is not such a big deal after all. And it will stay that way until we set it again.

Lets make a list of the lighting situations that cause balance difficulty; i.e., what was the lighting source when you have the problem.

Discharge type lamps often have strange color spectrums, with some colors just plain missing from their output. This can cause issue for some sensors and processors, especially if their sensitivity and related filtering does not complement the lighting source. Lets face it, it is tough to beat plain hot old 3200K light bulbs. When shooting refelcted light situations (most scenes) if the color is not present in the light source, it will not be seen in the scene.

James put the temperature yourself: it takes a second. select the K value that you like. ANY camera's interpretation of the white balance is not reliable. The XA20 gets it right only if I put a grey card and zoom in all the way. Not white, grey (12% better than 18%). But I can't do that all the time. So come on guys... to set the K value manually is not such a big deal after all. And it will stay that way until we set it again.

The K value function is useful, however, you have to stop recording to alter it. So what do you do if you are filming an event where you have to be continuously recording and the sun keeps coming out and then going behind a cloud again and so changing the colour temperature. With Sony cameras you can either tweak the white balance as it changes or quite often their auto white balance handles it beautifully. It is a really great camera but in my opinion does not offer enough options for changing white balance whilst recording - in this case a decent auto mode is essential which this camera doesn't have.

Does anyone dabble with the cinema modes on this camera, mine is always on Manual.

Especially during a ceremony in a church whitebalancing can be very tricky, you can't just guess it by dialing in a value and presets will also often give you a wrong wb, using a greycard would be the better solution but there is almost always no time to do that. I have had churches where there was different light on the alter and where the couple was sitting and for all guests in the church daylight was again more prominent, then you have got colored windows, sun shining or hiding again behind clouds and that can all happen on one single shoot. In that respect I can say it is very rare my sony cx730's give me a weird color, from what I remember seeing on location and afterwards in post the color is almost always spot on when using auto whitebalance. You'd have to pry my sony's out of my cold dead hands before I give them up. :)

Agreed Noa, I often use my CX730 as a second camera and it always handles the white balance situation nicely when the XA20 is struggling. In consistent light, they are a good match though. THE CX730 is a great camera but there are some things that the XA20 wins on. Firstly and obviously the XLR inputs, secondly you can change the gain whilst recording (which for some inexplicable reason you can't do on the Sony), it has a 20x zoom and the winner for me, a rocker control that has the quality and feel of any top of the range Canon such as the XF305. Have you tried the rocker on the new Sony NX5, it is a complete waste of time. That camera has other good points though, as usual never a perfect world, never a perfect camera.

I use a color meter and dial in what it states the Kelvin temp is. Works well for the situations I have used the XA 25 for. "traveling " WB or AWB or "Shockless " WB will never really give you a temp you can lock into during post and maintain during the complete production without a lot of work. AWB on a opening scene of a wedding where everyone is seated and wearing suits and non reflective dresses, then into the major third of the shot walks in a large white target ( bride wearing dress ) come on the AWB is going all over the range. Sony may be a bit better at this then Canon. but as stated the audio and the zoom control would seem to matter more to me.
I dont shoot weddings because I know they are hard to do. so don't jump me for not know wtf is going on at a wedding.
I just have had the best luck when using a ten meter.

Never refer to the bride as a "large white target" - even if she is carries a few extra pounds <G>.

Robert, I used K settings for mine when I had trouble. Rarely used presets and never used auto. What was strange is I could not dial in K degree setting that would work at those times when I had issues, no setting would work. There seemed to be certain lighting or situations where the camera could not be set to a proper white balance no matter where on the K continum I put it.

When setting WB I would sometime try a preset first, when in a hurry, and of course at times it might be fine.

Very good advice Don, very funny.

The K value function is useful, however, you have to stop recording to alter it. So what do you do if you are filming an event where you have to be continuously recording and the sun keeps coming out and then going behind a cloud again and so changing the colour temperature. With Sony cameras you can either tweak the white balance as it changes or quite often their auto white balance handles it beautifully. It is a really great camera but in my opinion does not offer enough options for changing white balance whilst recording - in this case a decent auto mode is essential which this camera doesn't have.

Does anyone dabble with the cinema modes on this camera, mine is always on Manual.


well I'm trying to help considering what we have. I agree that the auto WB simply doesn't work with the XA20 , and I agree that in here we should tell the truth so others can evaluate things, but it's also true that we must produce with what we have at the moment, and from that point of view a K value is a solid advice to avoid frustrations . Sony cameras give a better auto? yes, definitely. So that's your advice? the colleague shoots XA20 and your advice is to buy a Sony? leave the event and sprint to get another camera?

Anthony, Craig did not advise that anyone buy a Sony unless I'm reading a different post than you are.

...What was strange is I could not dial in K degree setting that would work at those times when I had issues, no setting would work. There seemed to be certain lighting or situations where the camera could not be set to a proper white balance no matter where on the K continum I put it.


Exactly my experience:
At X600K- too Red
at X200K- too Blue
at X400K- a green cast, of all things
Very strange...
Again, I don't recall ever having this problem with the XA 10

Anthony, Craig did not advise that anyone buy a Sony unless I'm reading a different post than you are.

Jeff, in fact I was talking to James (quoted in my post) , not Craig :)

Have any of you experiencing XA 20 white balance problems actually sent your camcorders to Canon for service?

Have any of you experiencing XA 20 white balance problems actually sent your camcorders to Canon for service?
I called. They have no idea. What I see is that the software in charge of the set1 and set2 will "try" to take some sort of educated guess starting from the last reading. Which looks to me like some kind of idiotic experiment teens usually do for fun or because they are bored or because they have to stay home all day. But I have a question too: to the "testers" , videographers who did the beta tests on this camera: so beta testers what happened? can't you see that this is by far the #1 camera in terms of bad white balance? In fact I don't remember any camera with a white balance that bad. Even my very first digital (toshiba pdr3) had a good WB, and it was a camera of the previous millennium. What do they "test"? if the on-off switch works?

Exactly my experience:
At X600K- too Red
at X200K- too Blue
at X400K- a green cast, of all things
Very strange...
Again, I don't recall ever having this problem with the XA 10

Bob, can you provide a bit more information? What light were you shooting? If it's white under 5000K daylight those results are what you'd expect, or are you saying, for example, setting 4000K under 4000K light the white looks greenish? I'm not finding that - just tried it, with 3600K tungsten, AWB looked right, 3600K looked the same. Could be it's not a problem with all cameras, or is it intermittent? Have noticed that footage is not the same as LCD - LCD black looks blue, but the footage is right.

Perhaps there is some variation in batches of cameras. If the reviews on the B&H website are to believed, many people are very pleased with the colors indoors for event shooting.

Bob, can you provide a bit more information? What light were you shooting? If it's white under 5000K daylight those results are what you'd expect, or are you saying, for example, setting 4000K under 4000K light the white looks greenish? I'm not finding that - just tried it, with 3600K tungsten, AWB looked right, 3600K looked the same. Could be it's not a problem with all cameras, or is it intermittent? Have noticed that footage is not the same as LCD - LCD black looks blue, but the footage is right.

the problem is that it's not stable. changes for no reason. I did a reading with 2 cameras (sony ea50 next to the xa20). The ea50 was stable for 50 minutes shooting while the XA20 wasn't. the camera shows "moods" like a pretty girl (I mean changes unpredictably and for absolutely no reason). I can't replicate the reading (it was 5000K I believe) and I apologize for that but believe me when I say that the only way with the XA20 is to forget AWB or readings and set the K value manually: the only way to keep it like that for any footage longer than 30 seconds.
But there is one thing that may help to understand how useless is the AWB and the 2 settings with the XA20. put the camera on a tripod and point to a scene. Don't move the camera and keep the same lights and set the WB (set1 for example). Repeat after 10 seconds, now put on AWB and back to set1 again and repeat the reading (of the set1). See? It changes. same scene, same lighting, same camera. Now a question: do we have to troubleshoot for Canon? don't they know what's wrong? after all that's what they do for a living, every day, all day long. I only need to push the button and do my job (which is NOT to troubleshoot idiotic software made by teens in Japan).. The other thing (involving the 180 degree rule) is the fact that a camera shooting 60p doesn't have 1/120 shutter speed. instead jumps from 1/100 to 1/250. is there some kind of explanation for this? or Canon doesn't believe in the rules at all. But 1/100 is too slow and 1/250 too fast shooting sports at night. And that's our problem, not Canon's.

That is what I do. Adjust the Kelvin Takes a second out of the day and less color correction in post. For me the weak link with this camera is the contrast ratio of thebsingle chip and blooming. I adjust the black detail and also ride the iris in bright situations. No camera is perfect. None

This auto-correct is killing me.



James put the temperature yourself: it takes a second. select the K value that you like. ANY camera's interpretation of the white balance is not reliable. The XA20 gets it right only if I put a grey card and zoom in all the way. Not white, grey (12% better than 18%). But I can't do that all the time. So come on guys... to set the K value manually is not such a big deal after all. And it will stay that way until we set it again.

Lou
well said. I agree completely. So far the camera that did everything right was the Sony EX1r (in my opinion). No surprises with that camera. honest camera for a lot of money but we have to admit that it gets everything right. That said we have to produce with what we have and make it work. like you do, like I do. But there are "things" so idiotic with the latest cameras to make you think if they did in purpose of just out of plain stupidity.

Bob, can you provide a bit more information? What light were you shooting? If it's white under 5000K daylight those results are what you'd expect, or are you saying, for example, setting 4000K under 4000K light the white looks greenish? I'm not finding that - just tried it, with 3600K tungsten, AWB looked right, 3600K looked the same. Could be it's not a problem with all cameras, or is it intermittent? Have noticed that footage is not the same as LCD - LCD black looks blue, but the footage is right.

As has been stated by others, the problem is intermittent and not easily predictable except that it is almost exclusively in artificial, indoor lighting.
My elaboration (X600K, etc.) was not very clear.
What I meant, as an example of this problem (when it occurs)- in tungsten light, 3600K might be too red, 3200K might be too blue, and 3400K, instead of being right on the money, has a greenish cast.
In other words- no setting works/looks as it should.
Then, next time around the color balance looks good- even AWB looks fine.
To put this in perspective, I think the XA 20 is a very well designed camera with many brilliant features for such a small package. I seldom have any problem getting what I need.
But when this WB problem does occur it is both perplexing and frustrating, and, one suspects, unnecessary. After all, camera WB/AWB is a mature technology that we are all accustomed to.

Thanks Bob. The XA20 AWB acts the same as my XF100 - flaky. It hasn't been a problem since I've gotten used to not using it. But I haven't noticed problems with manual settings, and I don't think others have found this as well, they're just on about the AWB. Is it possible you have a faulty camera?

Rainer:

When you mention that you have no problems with manual settings, do you mean Custom white balance settings, or picking a setting from the list ? Walk me through your process, please.

Hi Richard, There's no one correct way. You might have noticed the AWB sometimes giving erratic results (in my case seems mostly to read inconsistently too low) and even if it's correct you may or may not want color changes when a cloud goes over the sun; you definitely don't when shooting greenscreen or disco lights. In constant light the presets are a good starting point - If it's bright daylight you could just use the bright daylight setting, etc. which will help you develop an idea of color temperatures. You have a fair amount of latitude. Or have a guess as the type of light you're dealing with, and use a grey card (or faster, old trick, a polystyrene disposable cup over the lens) to get a custom K reading. If it's in the ballpark of what you guessed, or matches with another camera, or you don't have a clue, use that. The AB settings (which you dial up from custom settings beforehand) are handy when you don't have time to do a custom WB, like from inside the church to the front steps. I suggest just play around with a lot of test footage and see what works for you. One final unrelated hint - don't ever use the BLC, you'll never be able to match it up with anything.

This explains why sometimes the picture is Incredible and sometimes blown out with green blue red, reason im selling mine unless canon has a firmware fix.... but seeing xf 200 coming out which normally means no firmware updates. so time to jump ship.

I have hung on to my XA 20 because of the lack of an alternative in terms of size & functionality- particularly as far as the Sony line-up goes.
It looks like that is about to change with the soon to be released Sony PXW-X70.
Here's some preliminary info & specs:
Sony PXW-X70 Professional XDCAM Compact Camcorder PXW-X70 B&H

And here's a hands-on video review of the cam:
http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/article/broadcast-products-videography-pxw-x70_video.
No word yet on the price.
It looks like it just might be a really awesome camera, and some pretty brutal competition for the XA 20.

Well I found the PXW-X70 advertised over here as expected in September, for £1590 plus VAT (20%), if that helps.

Dave

Interesting...
Around $2,600 USD.
I was expecting it to be more

I"m curious if their 4k upgrade will be free once it becomes available.

Fairly sure I read that 4K would be a paid upgrade but don't quote me on that :-)

Dave

I read that as well, but Sony could certainly decide otherwise once the cam is released.

It actually is pretty smart of Sony to release it without the 4K option to start with, they can sell it at a lower price point, many users won't be able to resist to pay a small premium price considering all the extra features they will get and then after a year Sony can surprise everyone with a higher then expected 4K upgrade price. It's like these buy now pay later loans, it might sound cheap when you start but it will hit you in the face once it's payday :)

Watch for sophisticated bait-and-switch. I've seen many upgradable systems offered, but by the time the upgrade is available technology has moved on, and while the upgraded can still be added, the platform is behind the power curve. Whether or not it will happen with this Sony product remains to be seen, but Sony does have high turnover in portions of their product lines.

Given the persistence of DVD, is 4K end user media going to reach a critical mass any time soon?

Sorry to revive an old thread but it was the only one I could find pertinent to my inquiry.

Last Fall I purchased a Canon HF-G30 as an upgrade to my HF-G10. I had been contemplating the HF-G40 and took the opportunity to shoot some test shots in one of the camera stores in Montreal, largely to see if the new Wide DR and Highlight Priority recording modes were worth the added expense. I concluded that, for my purposes, they weren't. And a very good deal came up on an unused HF-G30 which was too good to pass up.

In many respects the HF-G30 is the perfect camcorder for my needs, but in the time I have been using it I have become increasingly frustrated with the AWB, and for all of the reasons discussed above in relation to the XA20 - being essentially the same beast under the hood.

AWB on the HF-G10 I found to be very good and I didn't expect it to be any less so on the HF-G30. But under what should be optimal outdoor conditions for AWB I'm constantly having to correct in post for blue casts on white objects in the shade/receiving shadows; even in the subtle contours of well illuminated subjects - a white car for example - the roof is white but parts of the bonnet get tainted blue. I rarely encountered that with the HF-G10. Even white window sills receiving strong early evening daylight would be preserved without casts. My impression is that because the HF-G30 does auto-balance a bit warmer than the HF-G10 it is struggling to rein-in the ultra-high K wavelengths. But didn't Canon account for that when they set the white balance algorithms for this warmer color tone?

Also the lag whilst AWB adapts to changed lighting conditions appears to be longer on the HF-G30 and often requires one or more power down/up cycles to get it there. Reminds me of times passed when I had a Panasonic NV-GS400; it became standard practice to power off and on again to get the AWB to kick in.

I agree that the 'Kelvin' option is a useful feature for impromptu adjustment of the color temp without recourse to a full manual balance, but when shooting under bright conditions with glare on the LCD that's more difficult in practice, and using the EVF, subtle casts may not be that obvious. Added to which, in run and gun situations the time spent fiddling with the white balance can be at the expense of a 'missed shot'. In some situations even cranking the K value up to max 15000K is not enough and the only recourse is a MWB off a grey card at reduced exposure.

I even toyed with the idea of auto white balancing through a Tiffen 812 warming filter in over-cast conditions to avoid the blue casts, which does work up to a point but then has a tendency to leave a slight magenta tint.

Anyhow, my reason for posting is not so much as to gripe (although I have) as to inquire whether this issue was addressed by Canon and resolved on the XA30/35 and/or HF-G40 or not. Unfortunately the test samples I shot when I was considering the HF-G40 don't reveal very much as they were all shot indoors under quite strong daylight balanced lighting. And what (assuredly) ungraded footage I can find on the web is not conclusive either.