This card does NOT record XAVC-S on the A7s.

Panasonic RP-SDUC32GAK (http://www.omegabroadcast.com/product-p/pan-rpsduc32gak-90-4775.htm)

This card DOES record XAVC-S on the A7s.

Panasonic RP-SDUC64GAK (http://www.omegabroadcast.com/product-p/pan-rpsduc64gak-90-4776.htm)

Though this thread is NOT discussing it, this is also the case on the Sony FDR-AX100 4k camcorder.

The AX100 requires that the card be formatted with exFAT. SDXC cards (64GB+) are exFAT; SDHC cards, like the 32GB one, are not likely formatted that way. The problem is most likely the card formatting, not the physical card.

Check the formats of the cards.

To shoot XAVC-s on the A7s you must have a 64gb card or higher. You can still shoot AVCHD on smaller cards, but not XAVC-s, regardless of speed. It's in the manual. I got two...killer cameras. Unreal in low light, great handling, etc.

The manuals are quite clear on this, you need SDXC for XAVC-S, SDHC cannot be used.

SDHC cannot be reliably formatted using anything other than Fat16 or Fat32 as the controllers and error correction processes built in to the cards are designed purely for these formats. It is possible to format an SDHC card using another standard, but it won't be reliable and there is a high likelihood of data loss. So Sony won't allow it.

SDXC is designed to work reliably with ExFat which allows for the larger file sizes that are common when shooting using higher bit rate codecs such as XAVC-S.

As there is very little price difference between SDXC and SDHC there is little reason to remain restricted to small files, segmented clips and all the other issues that come with SDHC and Fat16 or Fat32.

This A7s is NUTS! Really incredible camera and I'm VERY surprised that Sony actually made this thing.

The amount of internal Sony "cannibalism" potential between their upper models and this A7s seems to be unusually high for Sony to tolerate. In past years, I can't remember any $2,500 Sony camera challenging it's 10,000+ models so aggressively.

When I was at NAB 2013 I noticed that many Sony "pro" staff seemed a little "uneasy" when I asked them what they thought of the "consumer" A7s compared to their F3 / F5 / F55 / FS700.

This is NOT a direct quote, this just sums up the "feeling" I got from the Pro Sony guys: "Oh God, what is Sony doing to us with this CONSUMER DIVISION thing...are they mad?" lol

Anyway, Sony snagged another $2,500 of mine and I just added this to my existing Sony collection! ;-)

I did a quick Gain/ISO test. I simply scrolled up through the ISO values and spoke them out as I recorded them in XAVC-S. I then popped the card into my AX100 and noted the gain values that are displayed on playback.

Here they are with S-LOG2 turned on:

ISO 3,200 = 12db
ISO 4,000 = 15db
ISO 5,000 = 15db
ISO 6,400 = 18db
ISO 8,000 = 21db
ISO 10,000 = 21db
ISO 12,800 = 24db
ISO 16,000 = 27db
ISO 20,000 = 27db
ISO 25,600 = 30db
ISO 32,000 = 33db
ISO 40,000 = 33db
ISO 51,200 = 36db
ISO 64,000 = 39db
ISO 80,000 = 39db
ISO 12,0400 = 42db
ISO 128,000 = 45db
ISO 160,000 = 45db
ISO 204,800 = 48db
ISO 256,000 = 51db
ISO 320,000 = 54db
ISO 409,000 = 54db

Crazy....really really crazy numbers here...

Luv it

CT

This is not a very flattering video for the Sony A7s..... I'm considering a purchase but after seeing this I'm going to wait to see if someone comes up with a better video displaying the full attributes of this camera.

EOSHD Sony A7S looks for S-LOG 2 on Vimeo

Crazy....really really crazy numbers here...


My wife once had one of those very cheap handicams that could do 200x zoom...:)
From what I have seen 80.000 iso seems usable, once above that the noise becomes very noticeable but just the fact that it can is quite amazing. I have seen my ax100 goes to 33db of gain but iit looks like 24db of gain on my cx730, numbers don't always say all about sensitivity it appears as you probably have to take sensorsize into consideration as well.

This is not a very flattering video for the Sony A7s
agree, I have seen beautiful looking demos made for/by Sony but the "a7s looks" video you linked to doesn't even come close, in fact if that video was a representation of what the camera could do I wouldn't buy it at half the price, the a7s seems like a camera that requires some experience to get the most out of it but as shown before it can deliver if operated by the right persons.

This is not a very flattering video for the Sony A7s.....

Agreed. Looking forward to more samples of something besides S-Log. More of what the camera can do without intense color correction and grading.

Do you guys think the A7s could work as a deep dof run&gun type video camera in full auto? So like lock it at F8, put a native aps-c lens on there, set it to full auto and go? Given it's great sensor in low light I figure maybe that means it's auto focus in video could be more accurate than on other camera gear, so I could dual purpose it as a full frame shallow dof bokeh low light monster when needed but also use it for times when I need deep dof full auto good low light video performance. I wonder if this camera could be a master of both (for video, not stills).

This is not a very flattering video for the Sony A7s..... I'm considering a purchase but after seeing this I'm going to wait to see if someone comes up with a better video displaying the full attributes of this camera.



I too wouldn't buy it based on this video but if you watch it in HD and stop it to gaze at various frames, the details in that low light footage is pretty amazing. To my eye, it looks like it definitely needs some grading but the detail is there. The darker scenes just need to have the shadows brought up and some chroma added back in. In the right hands, the A7S is an amazing camera. The whole "its a poor carpenter who blames his hammer," comes to mind but I believe this camera will prove to be a pretty decent hammer (not literally) for the cost of admission. I know I'm trying to justify buying one.

I wonder if this camera could be a master of both (for video, not stills).

dslr and full auto don't go together, especially not full frame camera's, I highly doubt the autofcus to be very efficient in dark environments. This is not a run and gun camera, focus is always tricky on a full frame camera. If you want deep dof and good auto functionality, sort of a set and forget camera then get a videocamera with a smaller sensor.

Noa is right the A7s is not at its best for run n gun auto mode, but you can stop it down pretty far in low light with high iso and still have a clean image, you don't need to film full frame either, it has an aps-c mode too.
This was filmed in asp-c mode with full auto

Supper Club Hollywood | Fashion Show - YouTube

this is not my footage and it definitely has some issues but here's what the shooter said

"Our first shoot with the Sony A7S. Shot 1080p60 1/60th shutter with Picture Profile 7 (Slog2), with Color Mode changed to Cinema.



Graded in Premiere Pro CC using color curves and saturation, the same setting applied to all clips. The goal was to see how well the A7S handled skintones under very challenging, changing lighting conditions: low light, multicolor spots, etc. NR was only used on the first clip (very very low light).



Shot handheld using the Sony SEL18-200mm APS-C lens (FS700 kit lens), AUTO ISO, AWB, AF (center spot focus area), IS, manual zoom, built in mics. With this lens and settings, the A7S makes an excellent low-light live/event camera."

Those subjects he followed are well lit but like Peter asked for "deep dof full auto good low light video performance" is asking a bit too much from any camera, even smaller sensor ones. I at least would never trust a dslr in autofocus or any other tracking mode when the lights are low.

I guess I should have elaborated on what I meant by "low light", I meant more indoor type lighting and not a moonlight type situation. In my mind outdoors is good light, indoors is low light, and night shots are no light. My bad, I should have been more clear on that.

That video Ade linked is really interesting and is actually what I had in mind, going with aps-c lens to get slightly deeper dof, then keep the camera stopped down to f8-ish to get dof even deeper and hope the sensor can still scoop up enough light to have af work for video while tracking people. This is more for a backup cam really as I use the AX100 for everything and need a backup in case it happened to break on location. I thought of just getting another AX100 as a backup, but have been contemplating an A7s. My theory was that it could work as a full auto run&gun backup camera with indoor lighting if I used it with an aps-c lens and at f8, but then as a bonus I'd have an amazing full frame camera that I could use at f1.4 if I wanted to for other work. I wasn't sure how well the af would perform on it, but after seeing the above video it makes me think it might just work since my filming and lighting situations aren't as challenging as that fashion show video. Thanks a bunch for that link!

Here is another video by this guy. Good lord! Everything looks bad here. I can barely discern a difference. I think he screwed up on his compression settings or something...... these cameras can't be this bad! If I had a choice though I'd go with the 5D3.

EOSHD Shootout - SONY A7S + 5D Mark III raw + Panasonic GH4 + Blackmagic Pocket + FS100 + A7R + A6000 on Vimeo

I can't wait to get mine with the Atomos Shogun!

SONY A7s FULL HD DEMO Clip - YouTube

Noa is right the A7s is not at its best for run n gun "
I don't think so either I mentioned this is my mini review of the A7s which can be seen on my website.
The camera shines on a tripod or monopod but once handheld you have to be careful on how you pan and move with the camera.

I don't think so either I mentioned this is my mini review of the A7s which can be seen on my website.
The camera shines on a tripod or monopod but once handheld you have to be careful on how you pan and move with the camera.

Really? I beg to differ. And if you shoot in 60P NO rolling shutter.

Sony A7s video on Vimeo

Sony A7s party footage. on Vimeo

Michael,

Why do you say there will be no rolling shutter in 60p? The camera does not have a global shutter so no matter what mode you are shooting in my understanding is that you are going to get that lovely rolling shutter skew if you move the camera very much.

Philip Bloom makes it clear in his review of the A7s that is has pretty bad skewing with the rolling shutter and I think he would have mentioned if shooting 60p magically solved that.

The Bloom review was a bit of a shocker. Interesting to note he preferred the APS-C format option with FF lenses connected via the Metabones Speed Booster and that's the way I would use it too.

Michael,

Why do you say there will be no rolling shutter in 60p? The camera does not have a global shutter so no matter what mode you are shooting in my understanding is that you are going to get that lovely rolling shutter skew if you move the camera very much.

Philip Bloom makes it clear in his review of the A7s that is has pretty bad skewing with the rolling shutter and I think he would have mentioned if shooting 60p magically solved that.

Do you see it in my sample clips? I'm hand holding it and doing some whip pans here. I'm not saying it's not there in every case but I really don't shoot zoomed in and whip the camera horizontally.

if you shoot in 60P NO rolling shutter.
I'm not saying it's not there in every case

So what is it now, is there or is there not? :)

The camera has rolling shutter and it can be bad depending in which situation you use it, it doesn't even have to be a fast pan like this example shows:
Sony A7S - rolling shutter - S-LOG 2 - internal 1080p recording on Vimeo
Shooting in APS-C reduces the RS though but it will never be completely gone. RS should not be a problem for most of us depending on your shooting style but it can make the camera useless if you for instance shoot a soccer match with a telelens and follow the players while panning, but then again, you should use a videocamera for this purpose and not a full frame photocamera.

There is more rolling shutter than most dedicated video cameras. It's not just zoomed in shots or whip pans where you may find issues. Vehicles moving through a shot or shooting from a moving vehicle will all show rolling shutter artefacts. Even a mid speed pan across any strong verticals such as telegraph poles or tall buildings will show it up. But almost every other aspect of the images from the A7s are so good that I'm happy to simply avoid these types of shots with this camera. I'm lucky though, I have other cameras, so I can fall back to these when I know I may encounter RS issues. For me the A7s strength is I can pop it in a large pocket or sling it over my shoulder and take it just about anywhere and in most situations get video that is really frighteningly good considering what the camera costs.

As an owner of both the A7s and AX100 if I had to choose one which would it be? That's tough because although they really are very different cameras they both have strengths that are nice to have. The A7s produces a prettier picture and can be used run and gun, with limitations. I use the kit 28-70mm f3.5-f5.6 and it works well, good auto focus, smooth aperture changes etc. BUT and it is a very big BUT you need a really good set of ND's or a strong ND fader to use it outdoors due to the extreme sensitivity. Add to that the minimal 3x zoom and it's pretty restrictive as to what you can shoot without switching lenses and fiddling around. Sure you can add something like the new Tamron 16-300mm f3.5-f6.3 but the autofocus tends to hunt a lot more, manual focus is fiddly and you still need to mess around with ND's. I think you need to be a fairly competent cameraman and need to be very careful over lens choices etc to use the A7s for run and gun successfully. Plus don't forget the cost of all the extra lenses, filters etc adds up and makes the kit bulkier.
The AX100 on the other hand really is a grab and go camera. Easy to use, great zoom range, built in ND's. It's quick and easy to use and may get you shots that you will miss with the A7s. But the pictures are not as pretty, primarily it lacks the dynamic range of the A7s. But it is very easy to use, so well suited to those that are full auto shooters or rely heavily on auto functions to keep life simple. It's also a very compact package and as you don't need to buy extra lenses or filters it works out substantially cheaper.

Anyway, if I had to give up one, for me it would be the AX100 that would go. I would be prepared to sacrifice the ease of use of the AX100 for the better images from the A7s. But I normally shoot manually anyway. I'm used to swapping lenses, working with ND filters etc. The best camera to own is a camera you will use. It's all very well having fancy pictures and the ability to swap lenses etc. But if fiddling around means you don't use it very often, then there is no point in having it. You would be better off with a camera that you will be comfortable with, that you will use regularly.

Thanks guys, I am a better photographer than a writer by far. But the incredible clarity (low light, reflections and bokeh) of the video is very usable. I bought the Camera + Shogun so I could shoot some 4K video and start working with it before most folks will ever do. I really think a Sony A7s forum should be added here.

More handheld in very low light:

Sony A7s at the Clearwater Casino on Vimeo

Another clip:

Sony A7s Clearwater Casino Sign on Vimeo

We know the Atomos Shogun 4k HDMI recorder is on the way soon.

Many Sony A7s owners are planning on using the Shogun with the A7s. (In fact Sony is relying on the Shogun recording option as a selling point for the A7s against the GH4)

One of the biggest selling points of the A7s is it's SLOG-2 feature. On another forum it has been noticed that the A7s actually does NOT output SLOG-2 via it's HDMI port. (Sony underhandedly reverts it to REC 709?)

Can anybody confirm this? If this is so, why would Sony deliberately mislead their customers on the A7s? Nowhere is it stated in any documentation or description that the SLOG-2 is disabled over HDMI.

I'm hoping this is a mistake...or,...Sony is fixing this potential PR disaster soon in a A7s firmware update.

Somebody tell me that this information is COMPLETELY WRONG! (it must be wrong. I cant believe Sony would do that without stating that to their buyers first)

CT

Seems unlikely - this review has some tests with SLOG via external recording and it appears to work:

Sony A7s vs Panasonic GH4 Epic Shootout in 4K | Which Mirrorless Camera To Buy? | Tutorial Training - YouTube

Please do not watch my clips here. Watch them on Vimeo. They are highly compressed here. Wow!

I posted more of this on the Convergant Design 7Q 4k thread.

Did a test tonight between SLOG-2 recorded on XAVC-S internal vs. SLOG-2 recorded over HDMI.

Comparing both files on wave form scopes show some big differences. The XAVC-S file, the SLOG-s is nice and flat. However, the HDMI recorded file has substantially more contrast. Highlights at 70 IRE on XAVC-S were spread further up the scale to 80 IRE. Shadows that registered 10 IRE internal were now spread down to 0 IRE on the HDMI port.

I'm hoping A7s owners will do their own tests to confirm this. It's a bad thing that I hope we can get resolved soon.

I hope this is not a Sony "cripple" to make sure that true SLOG-2 is trapped inside it's internal 4:2:0, 1080 codec.

Right now, I'm giving Sony the benefit of the doubt and see what they say about this.

CT

I posted more of this on the Convergant Design 7Q 4k thread.

Did a test tonight between SLOG-2 recorded on XAVC-S internal vs. SLOG-2 recorded over HDMI.

Comparing both files on wave form scopes show some big differences. The XAVC-S file, the SLOG-s is nice and flat. However, the HDMI recorded file has substantially more contrast. Highlights at 70 IRE on XAVC-S were spread further up the scale to 80 IRE. Shadows that registered 10 IRE internal were now spread down to 0 IRE on the HDMI port.

I'm hoping A7s owners will do their own tests to confirm this. It's a bad thing that I hope we can get resolved soon.

I hope this is not a Sony "cripple" to make sure that true SLOG-2 is trapped inside it's internal 4:2:0, 1080 codec.

Right now, I'm giving Sony the benefit of the doubt and see what they say about this.

CT

Fascinating. What were your HDMI out settings and what do you record it on?

Samurai Blade via HDMI to SDI.

30p A7s recording and 60i HDMI (Using Atomos 2:2 pulldown)


I'm now testing using BlackMagic shuttle (completely different recorder)....will have those results in 30 min.

So far, I'm very surprised that only the Convergant Design team has noticed this and really spoken about it.

They are saying that the A7s SLOG-2 HDMI output is really closer to REC 709 than the "true" SLOG-2 internal recording.

If this turns out to be a creative Sony "cripple" trick, I'm going to be LIVID if they refuse to fix it.

I'm not saying it is yet. I'm hoping it's a simple "bug" that Sony will fix.

Looking for more A7s testers out there,.......

CT

______________________________

Edit - I now have TWO recorders (Atomos and BlackMagic) that both confirm the same result: The A7s HDMI port ADDS contrast back to the SLOG-2 signal. Again, highlights that are 70 IRE internally are now spread to 80 on the HDMI port. Same for the shadows too, 10 IRE internal are crushed to 0 IRE on HDMI (The entire wave form shows a SIGNIFICANT difference between internal recording and monitoring and actual HDMI out)

Calling all A7s owners. Please post your own test results! We need to shake the Sony tree on this problem.

I gotta find Alister and get him to see this......

30p A7s recording and 60i HDMI (Using Atomos 2:2 pulldown)

I'm not feeling that.

BlackMagic 60i HDMI capture....exactly the same problem. This is not an interlacing or pulldown problem.

Looking for more A7s testers with any HDMI recorder.

1.) Record a SLOG-2 internal XAVC-S file.
2.) Record via HDMI to any recorder that you have.
3.) Compare both files on a scope...you will see that the SLOG-2 gamma curve has been stretched and "damaged". (compared to internal file's "proper" curve on the scope)

Again, Convergent Design posted this problem not long ago on their thread.

CT

Check out the scopes. Everything above 20 IRE shifts (stretches) up...below 20 IRE shifts (stretches) down.

Edit: As you can see in the histogram, the SLOG-2 gamma log is certainly destroyed.

I rented an A7s a few weeks ago and can confirm the same issue recording to a PIX240i.

Dear Friends,

This issue can be easily shown without a video recorder.

Just connect an A7s (set to S-Log 2) to any HDMI television.

The image will not look like normal S-Log 2, it will not be "flat", there will be more contrast.

This is not a recorder issue.

Personally, I believe that this is not an attempt to cripple this camera.

Of course, we would like Sony to allow regular S-Log 2 to be output the HDMI port, when S-Log 2 is enabled in the menu.

Respectfully,

There is some suggestion on another forum that the s-log out of HDMI problem could due to which HDMI cable one uses.

Someone is saying that the HDMI cable itself is changing the 0's and 1's that are passing through it?

That doesn't make any sense to me. The signal is either there or not there.


CT

Does this also have influence on the low light abilities?

I am considering to use the an a7s for extreme low light shoots for a wildlife documentary, with a Shogun.

I think the new 24-135 F4 zoom that kits FS7, should be bundled with this camera instead. I can't understand why Sony doesn't promote it. Maybe there is a FF video camera on the wing...

I think the new 24-135 F4 zoom that kits FS7, should be bundled with this camera instead. I can't understand why Sony doesn't promote it. Maybe there is a FF video camera on the wing...
The 28-135 won't be shipping until December, and the FS7 is still a month away I guess. They were announced at the same date so bundling them makes more sense. Bundling a lens with a camera that costs less than the lens itself also makes less sense.

Lovely evening at the Alderwood Mall. Sony A7s Full 35MM sensor, hand held, tack sharp RAW, in very low light.

The 28-135 won't be shipping until December, and the FS7 is still a month away I guess. They were announced at the same date so bundling them makes more sense. Bundling a lens with a camera that costs less than the lens itself also makes less sense.

I have purchased the FE 24-70mm and the 70-200mm Zeiss/Sony lenses and they are fantastic. Soon I will get the 16-35mm lens. Bottom line is they auto focus stunning video and great Photos.

Bottom line is they auto focus stunning video

I guess it depends on your shooting style - I personally still prefer manual focus for video. Rented the 24-70 for a week and the manual focus is terrible, borderline unusable in my opinion. The weird mapping of rotation speed to focus speed results in a lot of hunting for the right focus, which is what you're trying to avoid by focusing manually in the first place. If they can provide an option for linear mapping of the rotation to focus it might be better, but even then slow focus changes exhibit visible stepping of the focus point rather than smooth transitions. For the price (and specifically for video use) I'd rather have the rokinon 24/35/85 t/1.5 cine prime set - certainly not as convenient as a single zoom, but far better manual focus plus much faster apertures and useable with a follow focus.

If they can provide an option for linear mapping of the rotation to focus it might be better

Don't all lenses change focus distance on a logarithmic scale?

Hmm, hadn't thought about that, but I guess that's true. That would be fine though - my point is that it would be better if sony provided a way for the focus ring rotation to map to the focus change in a manner which matched what you'd expect from a true manual lens.

The way the sony manual focus works is that if you turn the ring quickly - even a very short distance - the focus point jumps dramatically. If you turn it slowly it changes extremely slowly. This is frustrating because what typically happens (at least for me) is you start to turn the lens and the focus jumps farther than you expected, overshooting the target. Then you react to this jump by slowing down as you try to pull the focus back, but the speed drops so slow that it takes too long to pull it back. Finding just the right speed to turn it at is extremely difficult, and it feels fidgety. You can't really practice pulls, because if you don't maintain the same speed it'll be different each time - it's fairly easy to repeat turn angles, but difficult to match an exact rotation speed. To make it worse, when it drops down to the very slow speeds you can see it visibly changing focus in steps - it's subtle, but noticeable.

I get what they were trying to do from a technical standpoint - they idea is clearly to let you jump quickly to an approximate distance and then provide much finer control as you refine the focus point. That's probably a great way to work if you're using manual focus for stills where all that matters is the final focus point. It's just not good at all for video work where the focus moves are part of the shot and you need to be able to predictably and repeatedly execute smooth, controlled focus moves.

I see what you're saying. The ring itself isn't locked to the internals but rather controls them electronically. Sounds like that'd make pulling focus very frustrating.

I've got my eye on those new Zeiss Loxia lenses. Just ordered an a7S which is why I'm here. Very excited to have this as my new b-camera to my C300 and finally putting the HDSLR revolution behind me with the sale of my 5DIII. Long live the 5D.

Now you're talking. Loxia's on an A7s, that's a great combo. I got to shoot with some on the FS7 and they produced some really amazing images.

So what is it now, is there or is there not? :)

The camera has rolling shutter and it can be bad depending in which situation you use it, it doesn't even have to be a fast pan like this example shows:
Sony A7S - rolling shutter - S-LOG 2 - internal 1080p recording on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/103951451)
Shooting in APS-C reduces the RS though but it will never be completely gone. RS should not be a problem for most of us depending on your shooting style but it can make the camera useless if you for instance shoot a soccer match with a telelens and follow the players while panning, but then again, you should use a videocamera for this purpose and not a full frame photocamera.

Ouchy! :-)

Rolling shutter is supposed be be less using the APC mode on the A7s.