I guess I get the "oh wow" on the high ISO but who wants to shoot anything in light that bad.
News crews for one. There are occasions where the use of ANY lighting is out of the question, and if there is a least a little light, this may be an acceptable (and much cheaper!!) alternative to an image intensifier.

Wildlife may be another instance.

But then again I've never understood the obsession on having a camera that can do this.

In my line of work (weddings) these ridiculously high "clean" iso's are all that matter actually, I very often end up in venues that are candle lit only, it's not a matter of shooting it at a iso so it looks like daytime, it's all about selecting a higher f-stop like f4 or even 5.6 on your camera to have a deeper dof to work with and yet still be able to expose the scene like you would see it with your eyes, it's all about have that playing room with your dof and exposure.

At weddings you don't "light" a scene, you take it as it comes, most dslr's that can do 6400 iso have no other option then shoot at f1.4 when it gets too dark, having the luxury to shoot in the ranges of 100 or 200 thousand iso opens up many more possibilities

I noticed also RS when playing with the camera. The video makes the A7s look unusable.

The ax100 has the same problem, yet I only have seen the issue once where there was faster panning when following a moving train. If you know here the RS can ruin your image you can shoot accordingly and nobody will ever notice. Just don't use it as a sports camera :)

News crews for one. There are occasions where the use of ANY lighting is out of the question, and if there is a least a little light, this may be an acceptable (and much cheaper!!) alternative to an image intensifier.

Wildlife may be another instance.

OK I get it. I understand event shooters can use the extra stops. I would prefer less RS than night vision.

Event shooters will be hampered by the 30 minutes video limit, even outside of the EU.

Uh oh. There is a 30 minute limit in the US? Where did you see this?

"Event shooters will be hampered by the 30 minutes video limit, even outside of the EU"

Specs on the Sony US website do not mention any recording time limit at all.
(check out 1st link in this thread).

Cheers,

Vaughan

The 30 minute limit is in a NAB video interview with Sony. Same limit in RX10. But some other people got conflicting information. This really needs clearing up from official sources.

This new high-sensitivity full-frame camera opens up some interesting possibilities.Take the poor indoor sports photographer (or videographer) who has a full-frame sensor camera and needs to carry a tripod and a $11,500 Canon 400 mm f2.8 lens to be able to shoot at a decent shutter speed. If this camera gives you an additional three full stops of light, he can suddenly switch to a $1400 Canon 400 mm f5.6 lens and still have one additional stop of shutter speed. Perhaps someone will make a few very small light telephoto lenses with a maximum aperture of f 8 at a much lower price. The resolution across the lens field should be excellent at such a small aperture. Such a lens would be great for birds in flight or other outdoor photography as well, and for video you have the additional benefit of much less demanding focus. For situations when you wanted a shallow depth-of-field, a variable Gaussian blur could be added in post. I see a real future for this sensor and others like it.

Not so long ago I had read that exmor sensor technology was restricted to small sizes. This is the first camera to utilize it for FF and the benefits are eye popping.
So far the usable iso was 4-5 stops below the highest value. If the same rule applies that means that 13200 iso could be production material which is amazing.
The only thing that remains to be seen is the dynamic range. Usually so dimly lit scenes have very high contrast, so in order to shoot with such high iso, you also need all the dynamic range you can get.
Definitely will retire a lot of flashguns...

At the 3:17 mark of my video, the rep mentions no 30 minute limit.
If their is a 30 minute limit than perhaps that will be for most PAL territories while NTSC territories won't get a limit.

Sony - A7S - NAB 2014 - YouTube

Paulo, the lack of recording limit is good to hear!

With previous Sony SLTs and NEX cameras I didn't have as much of a problem with hitting record to stop and start the limit again as I did with the cameras overheating after 30-45 minutes in 100+ degree temps.

Any word on price yet? I read on "the verge" that it was going to be 1,699 body only but is that site trustworthy?

Any word on price yet? I read on "the verge" that it was going to be 1,699 body only but is that site trustworthy?

Are you talking about this article? Sony announces full-frame A7s camera that can practically shoot 4K video in the dark | The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/6/5588278/sony-a7s-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-announced)

It says expect it to come in north of the $1,699.99 asking price of the A7.

The A7 is $1,699 and the A7R is $2,299 so I doubt the A7S will be $1,699. It'll be closer to the A7R price if not even higher.

When I asked the Sony guy at NAB if the $1699 price rumor was accurate he practically scoffed at me. Then he made a comment about how the only other 4k full chip camera was the Canon 1d for $10,000 and that the A7s would not be $1699.

That Sony guy forgot to mention that for the a7s salesprice you don't get 4K but need to buy a ext recorder as well :) Looking at the prizes of the other A7 camera's now I also would doubt it will be around that prize, don't think they will try to compete with the gh4 but rather the 5dIII

Just wanted to address some comments made earlier in this thread about resolution and frame rate.

It's not uncommon to do line skipping for higher frame rates because there is a limitation on how fast you can read out the entire sensor without frying it. The rest of the electronics have to keep up as well and it makes more sense from a design and cost standpoint to offer the higher frame rate by dropping the resolution. You can see this in a lot of cameras on the market.

Even my PDW-F350 shoulder camera did this. Anything over cranked above 30P dropped the vertical resolution from 1080 to 540. To a discerning eye, this might be visible, but the end viewer is likely to never notice.

Regards,

-gb-

When I asked the Sony guy at NAB if the $1699 price rumor was accurate he practically scoffed at me. Then he made a comment about how the only other 4k full chip camera was the Canon 1d for $10,000 and that the A7s would not be $1699.

Did you mention the GH4? Even if it is not FF. Are they trying to pretend it has not changed the 4K price structure?

Sony is awfully quite about their a7s price, they do have some serious competition to consider as their camera can only do 4k with another expensive investment, since 4k is the buzz word right now with many low prized serious offers pricing the a7s too high might kill their sales. Last year I saw a Dutch store giving the XLR-K1M 800 dollar xlr add on for free if you bought the vg900, that's something you don't do if sales go well so they still might be thinking where to place this a7s on their price scale compared to the competitors or they might be giving a 4k recorder with it for free if sales turn out to be bad :) Just look at what BMD did when they trashed their prices just to stay competitive, Sony could very well surprise us with a price they don't want to charge but have no other option to do so.

Did you mention the GH4? Even if it is not FF. Are they trying to pretend it has not changed the 4K price structure?

I did and the guy made a comment about the GH4 not even being in the same class.

He meant "price" class

The way he said it sounded like the GH4 could not even be compared to the A7s. I guess because of the full chip and the supposed amazing low light performance. I do find the low light possibilities exciting but the external recorder for 4k not so much.

The Sony Rep was correct. It can't be compared to the GH4. The GH4 can actually record a 4K image internally without expensive accessories. The Sony cannot. ;)

How many people here believe this 12mp FF sensor was designed specifically for the A7s and the A7s "only"?...

Just what I thought....nobody!

So....how will this sensor show itself down the road again? A 4k FS200 with 4k XAVC-S onboard? Maybe at IBCI in the fall?

Hmm...I would expect to see this sensor in at least another Alpha and 1 or 2 new video cameras down the road.

Anybody care to speculate?

A 4k FS200 with 4k XAVC-S onboard? Anybody care to speculate?

Seeing as it's a 35mm full frame sensor not super35 like the FS100 and FS700, it would probably be positioned higher as say an FS900 with a price tag to match. 4K XAVC full frame low light monster.

I think we will see it in a VG900 replacement and with a bigger body for cooling may see not only internal 4K but 60P as well ?

Ron Evans

I think we will see it in a VG900 replacement and with a bigger body for cooling may see not only internal 4K but 60P as well ?

I figure the VG900 replacement will be identical to the A7s, but with 4k recording built into the camera since it can handle the cooling better, but otherwise will have all the same limitations (30 fps, codec, etc) as the A7s. That will let them release a FS700 replacement that has 4k, a better codec, 60 fps, etc at a much higher "pro" price. That will let their lineup of "A", "VG" and "FS" camera's co-exist at different price points, features and form factors. Although with more and more features being backed into these cameras, I have to wonder for how much longer the VG and FS lineups will both be able to co-exist.

Differentiators would be just like my FDR-AX1 and the PXW-Z100. VG will have XAVC-S 8bit 420 and the FSxxx XAVC and XAVC-S with choices like the PXW-Z100 and hardware interfaces like SDI gen lock etc. Add to that buttons rather than menu selections and that may be all the difference. There will also be room for an EAxxx with 1" sensor of AX10 with buttons but similar codec restrictions( XAVC-S). EAxxx similar price to the FDR-AX1 giving a choice of fixed or interchangeable lens and the VGxxx a little less just like they are now. The larger camcorder bodies will support an XQD card interface needed for data rate and heat management for encoding to 60P.

Ron Evans

Sony has so many cameras, they likely have a department dedicated just to making sure there's no in house cannibalization. I've really liked the design of the VG line, but it's been distinctly a prosumer camera, leaning towards the consumer end, and it doesn't seem likely that they'll give it anywhere near the ability that might hurt the FS line.

Then again, really all they would need to do is put in the a7s sensor, give it the same 4k codec as the ax100, and that would be enough to satisfy a lot of folks. the main problem with the vg900 being the sensor with the traditional dslr level processing and all the softness and artifacting that goes along with it

Does anybody have any thoughts on this camera been any good for wildlife filming?

I think you are better of with a m4/3 camera which has a 2x crop so it will double the focal lengths of the lens you use + you have a very usable ETC mode which adds another 2,5 times zoom, so if I calculate right a 200mm f2.8 lens on a full frame camera can become a 1000mm f2.8 on a panasonic g6.
see below video which was shot with the g6 and etc mode used.
Oracle Team USA on Vimeo

Thanks Noah

I was just thinking of the 50mbs and the lightness of the camera i use a 320 and in these days i wonder if there is any need for such a big camera, got the RX10 but lacks a bit of zoom range great camera all the same

Does anybody have any thoughts on this camera been any good for wildlife filming?
Depends what you're doing - if lowlight performance is important to you, massive telephoto reach maybe less so, this may have a lot to offer.

It's funny, when I try to capture a dark scene, I try to capture it as my eyes see it. I really don't see the point in making a night scene look like daylight. But then again I've never understood the obsession on having a camera that can do this.

A clean shot whose brightness is indicative of what you see? That I can see (no pun intended). But making daylight from night? Not so much.

I tend to agree. Remember the A7s is a consumer camera so will probably be priced as such. If you want to do 'low light' really well, take a look at this John de Borman clip in the referenced article. Personally, I think this is what true 'low light' capability should look like and all this from a camera which is 'only' 2K! (not withstanding a great lens too...)

I could definitely make good use of the low-light capabilities of this camera. There were many times I'd shoot an event for a client where the available light was much less than optimum (like a candlelight vigil, for example). It would be really nice to get a clean image that looks well lit under those situations. Even opening the iris to maximum, lowering the shutter speed, or boosting gain on the camcorder won't cut it for some things I've had to shoot.

low light without adequate latitude is useless.

Are you referring to the a7s? Or is it generally speaking?

(SR5) Sony Luxemburg leaks A7s and RX100M3 price (2295 and 849 Euro). Shipment in July. | sonyalpharumors (http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-sony-switzerland-leaks-a7s-and-rx100m3-price-2295-and-849-euro-shipment-in-july/)

"A7s: And right now the official Sony Luxemburg store has listed the final A7s price which is set at 2295 Euro! Shipment will be late July! The same store sets the price of the A7r at 1899 Euro. That makes the A7s 20% more expensive. We can speculate the price in US to be 20% higher than the A7r too ($2295 here at Amazon). It would mean the A7s could price could be around $2750."

Like probably many I was hoping it would be around the gh4 prize but for a full frame camera and taking the other a7 model pricing into consideration it was to be expected that this would not be the case. Now that I have seen how much cleaner the gh4 is at 6400 iso compared to the gh3 I"ll settle for that instead, for my kind of work 6400 iso coupled with a 12mm f2.0 lens should be able to get me through even the darkest receptions and still have a dof that is manageable. The canon 5dIII however seems to have a serious competitor now when it comes to delivering video and the low light throne will go to the sony instead.

Sonyalpharumors did their math wrong since the A7r price was a temporary discount, so based on the no sale price this signals a US price of closer to $2500.

..this signals a US price of closer to $2500.

Right on the money! B&H has the A7S for preorder at $2,498, body only. B&H Photo Video Sony A7S (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1044728-REG/sony_ilce7s_b_alpha_a7s_mirrorless_digital.html/BI/19641/KBID/12197)

DR is spec is stated to be 15.3 stops. Nikon D800 is DxOmark measured at 14.4 in still RAW. DxOmark DR measurement for RED Dragon is 14.8.

DR is spec is stated to be 15.3 stops. [...] DxOmark DR measurement for RED Dragon is 14.8.

But that's DR for a still vs a frame grab, right..?

-- peer

But that's DR for a still vs a frame grab, right..?

-- peer

Yes, so this issue is how much of still RAW DR transfers to the S Log 2 profile. Den Lennie says that the A7s has DR similar to his F5.

The real issue is that measured DR drops drastically as you go beyond base ISO. The A7s has outstanding performance at higher ISO, and this should mean that the A7s has less decrease in DR as ISO increases, so that it has the potential to be DR king above base ISO.

Limited supply of Sony A7s tracked to arrive today, Wednesday July 2.

Sony Alpha a7S (http://www.omegabroadcast.com/product-p/sny-ilce7s-fslash-b-90-4977.htm)

Just in time for the holiday weekend!

DR is spec is stated to be 15.3 stops. Nikon D800 is DxOmark measured at 14.4 in still RAW. DxOmark DR measurement for RED Dragon is 14.8.

Yes, but A7s on DxOmark (apples to apples) DR is only 13.2

S-Log2 can only hold 14 stops, so there is no way to record more than 14 stops with the A7s at this time.

This card does NOT record XAVC-S on the A7s.

Panasonic RP-SDUC32GAK (http://www.omegabroadcast.com/product-p/pan-rpsduc32gak-90-4775.htm)

This card DOES record XAVC-S on the A7s.

Panasonic RP-SDUC64GAK (http://www.omegabroadcast.com/product-p/pan-rpsduc64gak-90-4776.htm)

Though this thread is NOT discussing it, this is also the case on the Sony FDR-AX100 4k camcorder.

so the Panasonic SDXC DOES and the Panasonic SDHC does not. although both are U3 cards?

That's correct.