I just spent many hours thoroughly scoping both the DVX100A and the HD100.
You can look at the results in the following quicktime files (advance through frame-by-frame to compare results.)

I also have noted my "wide-latitude," "low-light," and "filmout" settings.

HD100 Gamma and Matrix settings:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100-DVX_GAMMA-MATRIX/HD100_GAMMA-MATRIX-Sorenson.mov

DVX100 Gamma Settings:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100-DVX_GAMMA-MATRIX/DVX100-GAMMA-Sorenson.mov

DVX100 Colour Matrix Settings:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100-DVX_GAMMA-MATRIX/DVX100-MATRIX-Sorenson.mov

Downloadable pdf of 6 of my scene file recipes:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100_Scene_File_Recipes1.pdf

JPG of the scene files:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100_Scene_File_Recipes1.jpg



Here's my technical matched settings for the three typical DVX100 setups. I got them as close as possible. Please note that these comparisons are based on the DVX100A with a setup of 7.5IRE. The HD100 was also setup with 7.5, but I have confirmed it is only added on the analog output. The 1394 is 0 setup.


HD100 settings to match DVX100 CINELIKE GAMMA and CINELIKE MATRIX:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100-TO-DVX_MATCH_SCENE_FILES/DVX_CINELIKE_GAMMA+CINE_MATRIX_MATCH.jpg

HD100 settings to match DVX100 CINELIKE_D GAMMA and CINELIKE MATRIX:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100-TO-DVX_MATCH_SCENE_FILES/DVX_CINELIKE_GAMMA_D+CINE_MATRIX_MATCH.jpg

HD100 settings to match DVX100 CINELIKE_V GAMMA and CINELIKE MATRIX:
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/.Public/HD100-TO-DVX_MATCH_SCENE_FILES/DVX_CINELIKE_GAMMA_V+CINE_MATRIX_MATCH.jpg


The colour chart used is a standard GretagMacbeth ColorChecker. I needed a smooth grad to determine "stepping" in the Mpeg compression, so I created the grad card myself in photoshop using a linear grad from absolute black to absolute white. I printed it on a good HP injet photo printer.

Before I started these tests I reset the HD100 to factory defaults and initialized scene file 6 on the DVX. I set the HD100 to DV24PA mode as well, 4x3. The HD100 colour gain was turned off (B&W) and the DVX100A was turned down as much as possible to give me the thinnest line possible on the waveform monitor. The line is much thicker on the DVX100A tests because it can't totally remove saturation, so you are seeing a bit of RGB response.
The HD100 was set to 108% clip to extend the recording latitude, and it seems from the scope results that the DVX100 also records 108% super-white.

Next, I white balanced and set a 18% Gray Card (on angle to light source) to 50IRE for each camera - using the default out-of-box scene files.
This gave me ƒ2.4 for the DVX and ƒ1.4 for the HD100. I had both cameras simultaneously plugged into my analog waveform/vectorscope so I could confirm the digital results via firewire. I set both cameras to 7.5IRE because I'm in North America, but I observed that the DVX100A passed the 7.5 setup through the digital FW cable, but the HD100 does not. I took this into account when I eventually created the DVX match settings.

I then went through all of the gamma combinations I could think of on the DVX and then did all of the colour matrix combinations. On the HD100 I went through a huge amount of combinations of curve settings, but only compared the cine and standard matrix settings to each other.

To determine matched settings for the DVX100A, I brought up the frame grabs for Cinelike, Cinelike_D, and Cinelike_V and determined how to match the shape in the HD100. I then opened the vectorscope frame grabs and tweaked the colour settings to get them as close as possible. It wasn't easy, and my resultant "recipes" are not perfect, but they are close enough to do a multicamera shoot and then only require slight adjustments in post.

It is pretty amazing the depth of control available in the HD100... I didn't even come close to dialing in ALL of the possible combinations, but I think my tests demonstrate the effects of each control well enough to create some cool looks.

I think that I will typically be shooting "old school" style with my wide-latitude setting to capture as much info as possible in my "digital neg" and then leave the colour correction to post production. I confirmed (as reported) that the MPEG compression creates bigger "steps" in luminance in the blacks than in the whites. That is why I increased the "master black" levels in my wide-latitude setting to get the most out of the compression. In this case I would expose for my highlights and squeeze about 8 stops of latitude between 15IRE and 100IRE.

Mac users can open my .mac public folder (timdashwood) and drag the JPEG frame grabs to your own hard drive. The PC guys can either download the iDisk utility or go here (http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/public) and download them individually from the HD100-DVX_GAMMA-MATRIX folder.


Tim

Outstanding, Tim, this is the sort of content we're always looking for around here. Much appreciated,

Thx for your hard work Tim. I too like to shoot as flat as possible and tweak in post!

What are the diffrences between Cinelike, Cinelike_D, and Cinelike_V for those of us who never had a DVX100?

From the graphs I like the "filmout" and "cine wide lattitude" as they seem most balanced!

Is it possible to save a few of settings as presets so that you dont have to dial in the diffrent settings everytime you want to change?

What are the diffrences between Cinelike, Cinelike_D, and Cinelike_V for those of us who never had a DVX100?

Download the QT called DVX100A Gamma settings and you will see the curves.

From the graphs I like the "filmout" and "cine wide lattitude" as they seem most balanced!
The cine wide is the one I've been using most often when I know I will be colour correcting. I would use my filmout settings only for 35mm blowup that may have to skip a D.I.


Is it possible to save a few of settings as presets so that you dont have to dial in the diffrent settings everytime you want to change?
Yes. 3 to the internal memory and 4 per SD card. I have all of these saved in my cameras.

fantastic stuff Tim! thanks!

particularly like the low-light mode.

Yes. 3 to the internal memory and 4 per SD card. I have all of these saved in my cameras.

Correction: 2 to internal memory and 4 to the 16Mb SD card included with the HD100. Someone else reported that a max of 8 scene files can be saved to an SD card. This must either require a larger card, or a firmware update? I don't know yet.

Of course you can buy as many SD cards as you want and build a portable library of scene files. It would be good for multicam shoots.

Tim

Tim, I read that you have made some presets for the Amelie, Four Kings and English Patient looks. Would you mind sharing them with us plz?

How about a "Se7en" look? :)

You misread someone else's post. I am working on some creative looks, but it takes time to create them in camera.
Frankly, it is alot easier to capture as much info as possible and then create the looks in post with Magic Bullet for Editors.

I'll create a library of my favourite looks as soon as I have a chance.

I also love the way "Se7en" was shot. I was just thinking about it the other day because I watched "The Interpreter" on DVD - also shot by Darius Khondji.

Tim

Tim that is absolutely awesome work - thanks . Hope the below info is useful to you. (although given your obvious technical expertise you probably already know this but at least it should clarify the issue for others)

The HD100 was also setup with 7.5, but I have confirmed it is only added on the analog output. The 1394 is 0 setup.
Tim

Funny coming from PAL land but I came across Adam Wilt's explanation for the above (although not in relation to this particular camera). It is absolutely correct NOT to pass on 7.5 setup to the digital domain (IEEE1394). According to Adam setup does not exist and should NEVER be applied to the digital signal, because all 601 signals comply to 0 setup.

For a more detailed explanation see here:

http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#Setup

Based on the above if the DVX does pass on setup to the 1394 signal, it would seem unwise to use that option...

Based on the above if the DVX does pass on setup to the 1394 signal, it would seem unwise to use that option...

Only used in North America NTSC. Everyone else in the world should just leave it on 0 and not think about it.
If you are not shooting for broadcast, then it may also be a good idea to leave it off in NTSC land as well to achieve a little more latitude. However, it should be set to 7.5% if you want to see a true representation of what your footage will look like when broadcast.

Only used in North America NTSC. Everyone else in the world should just leave it on 0 and not think about it.
If you are not shooting for broadcast, then it may also be a good idea to leave it off in NTSC land as well to achieve a little more latitude. However, it should be set to 7.5% if you want to see a true representation of what your footage will look like when broadcast.

Not when recorded to DV according to Adam (because the 601 specs even in North America call for 0 IRE) - only when OUTPUT from a DV camera/deck in analogue should the 7.5 setup be added. It should never be recorded in a digital format. At least that's my understanding of what Adam is saying. If you do record 7.5 setup in digital, you are muddying the signal for no reason.

Of course real world situations may differ, but it sounded reasonable to me. And I don't work in NTSC North America so I don't have to worry about it ;-)

Not when recorded to DV according to Adam (because teh 601 specs even in North America call for O IRE) - only when OUTPUT from a DV camera in analogue should the 7.5 setup be added. It should never be recorded in a digital format. At least that's my understanding of what Adam is saying.

I guess it is just one of many illegal things the DVX100 is capable of.

I guess it is just one of many illegal things the DVX100 is capable of.


Caught me editing! You mean like sneaking professional public shoots in. Love it.

I guess it is just one of many illegal things the DVX100 is capable of.
'tain't just the DVX -- just about every prosumer-priced camera does it that way. It's wrong, but it's the way it is.

The rule of thumb is pretty much someone should never use the 7.5% setup setting when recording. Just about the only circumstance where it makes any sense is if you're using the camera as a live camera head, taking the s-video output and recording that on an analog deck. Other than that. the 7.5% setup menu item is basically bogus.

Correction: 2 to internal memory and 4 to the 16Mb SD card included with the HD100.

Yeah, and you also get LIVE HD30P, LIVEHD25P and CINEMA HD24P, bringing the total of possible setting files in camera to 5. Although those 3 are read only files.

Tim,
Many thanks for the time spent and the files. I too want to go the "digital negative" and then Post for each use (DVD, HD & Film)

When shooting with this "flat" setting, what do you use for live-preview? Since the gamma is going to be wrong on any display device what does it look like?

Tim,
Many thanks for the time spent and the files. I too want to go the "digital negative" and then Post for each use (DVD, HD & Film)

When shooting with this "flat" setting, what do you use for live-preview? Since the gamma is going to be wrong on any display device what does it look like?

Well, if you aren't shooting to go directly to film with traditional colour timing, I would stay away from the filmout curve. It requires a completely different approach because you are linearly capturing the exposure, and then letting the final film stock introduce its own characteristic curve. There are professional HD monitors with film curve compensations built in. I think Sony and Panasonic make a couple of models. Panasonic also makes something called a "Gamma Box" for this purpose.

If you want to shoot as flat as possible for the most options in D.I., use black stretch 3, and a 80% knee. That should give you all the dynamic range this camera is capable of.
Set your zebra to 100% and make sure your highlights don't exceed it (unless you want them to.) Then, in post, colour correct your HD and SD versions independent of your D.I. for film blowup. Most of the high-end D.I. suites have LUTs (look up tables) built in for various print film stocks so you can work in a digitial WYSIWYG environment.

On the setup issue, is the setup applied to NTSC analog out when shooting either HDV or DV? I want to be sure I fully understand this as there has been so much confusion on this in the past. I believe my PDX-10 is in the offending "adds setup to 1394" catagory.

So what I am asking then is this:
when shooting DV or HDV, the 1394 output has no setup added and the analog outputs do, for both HDV and DV, correct?

I will be shooting with the new JVC this weekend. Just test footage to help decide on the workflow here at the day job.

Thanks for the work. I sent this thread off to our camera expert, in case we need to match the 100a and the JVC at some point.

Sean McHenry

On the setup issue, is the setup applied to NTSC analog out when shooting either HDV or DV? I want to be sure I fully understand this as there has been so much confusion on this in the past. I believe my PDX-10 is in the offending "adds setup to 1394" catagory.

So what I am asking then is this:
when shooting DV or HDV, the 1394 output has no setup added and the analog outputs do, for both HDV and DV, correct?

I will be shooting with the new JVC this weekend. Just test footage to help decide on the workflow here at the day job.

Thanks for the work. I sent this thread off to our camera expert, in case we need to match the 100a and the JVC at some point.

Sean McHenry

The 7.5 setup option adds setup to the analog output when in NTSC mode, but I can't confirm if it does the same in HD mode. 7.5 setup is strictly a North American NTSC thing (Japanese NTSC doesn't use it) so I assume that it has no effect on 720P analog out, but I can't confirm it since I don't have a HD analog scope. I have only scoped analog downconverted NTSC.
The HD100 never adds 7.5 setup to 1394 output in any case, but it looks like the DVX100A does (even though it shouldn't.)

100% Accurate. I forgot to change the 7.5 setup back to 0 and the picture was pure mud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not when recorded to DV according to Adam (because the 601 specs even in North America call for 0 IRE) - only when OUTPUT from a DV camera/deck in analogue should the 7.5 setup be added. It should never be recorded in a digital format. At least that's my understanding of what Adam is saying. If you do record 7.5 setup in digital, you are muddying the signal for no reason.

Of course real world situations may differ, but it sounded reasonable to me. And I don't work in NTSC North America so I don't have to worry about it ;-)

Thanks for providing your test results.

I'm preparing to do a test on the HD100 and I was comparing your setups to what is mentioned in the menu pages of the camera manual. I'm assuming that "Cine" refers to "Cinema Mode", however I can't find any reference to "Filmout" in the menus listed. Have I missed something?

Since part of the test is a transfer to 35mm I was wondering if you noticed any increase in noise with the black stretch being applied?

Have you done any tests with the different gamma levels?

I'm assuming that "Cine" refers to "Cinema Mode", however I can't find any reference to "Filmout" in the menus listed. Have I missed something?
The Filmout mode is on the Gamma settings, there is Standard, Cine and Filmout. I know I read about it somewhere, I thought it was on the manual but now I can't find it. I didn't pay much atention because from the discription it doesn't apply to my needs. I can't remember what I read about Filmout mode... but it has something to do with printing to film.

The Filmout mode is on the Gamma settings, there is Standard, Cine and Filmout. I know I read about it somewhere, I thought it was on the manual but now I can't find it. I didn't pay much atention because from the discription it doesn't apply to my needs. I can't remember what I read about Filmout mode... but it has something to do with printing to film.

According to the manual there are 3 gamma settings: "Off", "Standard" & "Cinema" then for the last two settings you can adjust the level from "Min (-5)...NORMAL... MAX (5).

I seem to remember Filmout being mentioned in a review, but I don't see it (or can't find it) in the manual for the GY-HD100.

FILMOUT is undocumented and was added last minute as requested by one of the filmmaker "consultants." I think it was probably James Tocher from DFG in Vancouver, but I'm not sure.

We've been discussing the pros and cons of using a filmout curve with MPEG2 compression and 8-bit. Here's one of many threads on the topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=59912

Since part of the test is a transfer to 35mm I was wondering if you noticed any increase in noise with the black stretch being applied?

No, but if you are concerned about noise in a filmout, set the V-FREQUENCY to LOW. (Based on a recommendation from James Tocher of DFG.)

Have you done any tests with the different gamma levels?
Yes. You will be amazed at how much control the gamma adjustments will give you. Refer to the results of my test at the top of this thread to see the effects of the different settings.

FILMOUT is undocumented and was added last minute as requested by one of the filmmaker "consultants." I think it was probably James Tocher from DFG in Vancouver, but I'm not sure.

We've been discussing the pros and cons of using a filmout curve with MPEG2 compression and 8-bit. Here's one of many threads on the topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=59912

Many thanks for the link and the info. I guess I'll have to wait until I get my hands on the camera before checking FILMOUT.

More info here:

http://www.gyhduser.com/showthread.php?t=267

More info here:

http://www.gyhduser.com/showthread.php?t=267

It sounds similar to Film Rec on the Varicam.

It sounds similar to Film Rec on the Varicam.
Exactly. A Linear Response Gamma Curve. Of course it isn't perfectly linear, but pretty close.