Hi All:

I've been following the development of RC drones closely for the past 3 years. Three years ago, I seriously considered buying a drone system for our university's video unit, but decided against it as the technology (back then) was still too sketchy for comfort (and at the time, my understanding was that flying one was like balancing a plate on a stick).

Flash forward to 2014, and I'm convinced that with the DJI Phantom 2 (and similar platforms) the technology has advanced light years. I'm ready to take the plunge, and have a couple basic questions for others here already doing this.

First, my impression is that with the addition of accelerometers/gyros/GPS, current platforms (like the DJI Phantom 2) are far easier to fly than the earliest RC drones---is that correct? I have years of experience flying RC gliders (mostly slope soaring gliders) so am adept at making VERY tiny movements with the stick.

(As an aside, I became proficient with older FM transmitters that did not have the ability to program exponential control curves and the like allowing full-throw of the stick---when I fly my gliders, you wouldn't even see my thumb move on the stick at all---that's how "hair trigger" the stick is!)

So my assumption is that I'd have no trouble flying one of the latest generations of drones (like the Phantom 2).

---
My other question is...given a good pilot, is the Phantom's safety record pretty solid? Meaning have they been known to crash a lot? (I'm not talking about pilot error, but in-flight failure of mechanical systems.)

Given the huge number (and growing) of Phantom 2 vids on YouTube...and given that outdoor enthusiasts are now taking them on rock climbing and whitewater paddling trips, my assumption is that the platform itself (outside the pilot) is extremely safe and reliable when flown in calm conditions.

All of this is part of me just doing due diligence before buying a system and flying it around a university campus. Could I hire an experienced drone operator? Of course---but I want to do it myself---it's more fun! :-) (And again, as an experienced RC pilot I have no illusions about the difficulty and potential hazards of remotely controlling anything in the air.)

Thanks!
Scott

The Phantom is more of a consumer/fun flyer. It will get decent shots. You can read plenty of stories of Phantoms suddenly flying away from their owners never to be seen again. You can also find plenty of videos of Phantoms taking a nap with the fishes from power failures and Pilot errors that left the craft over water at the wrong time.

Since it is a quad there is no possible recovery mode if there is a motor/esc failure. You need a HEX at a minimum for something like that (and I do recommend something like that if you are going to do it seriously).

Its a good learning platform but one you will outgrow quickly if you intend to do it at a pro level. On the plus side you can get a full working setup for under $2k and have some fun. From there the price of admission for a full kit jumps into the mid teens and can require 2 people to operate.

Hi Scott, I have been flying a Phantom 1 regularly for a few months now and have a 2 axis gimbal and GoPro Hero 3 mounted.

Firstly I would suggest that you ignore the vast majority of reports about flyaways and mechanical failures. I have been following the RC Groups thread on the Phantom 1 since the very first one about 25,000 posts ago and one of the things that I have realised is that most of the problems are due to careless, reckless or generally stupid usage. There seems to be a perception with some purchasers, that you can just open the box, plug it in and fly it! Well you could, but you could do the same with a light aircraft. Because they look like toys, the perception seems to be that you can treat them like one.

They are not a toy, they are a highly sophisticated miniaturized flying machine that could potentially cause a lot of damage if misused. So with that in mind, it is essential to understand how it operates, how to preflight check it, and carrying out the proper calibration checks before every session. The Phantom in my opinion, is the most reliable and sturdy of the entry level camera capable quads. Parts are cheap and available, advice is readily available from huge user groups and above all it is easy to fly. In common with many others, it will hold both attitude and gps position, with an emergency return to home that will bring it back if you lose sight of it, or get a low battery.

I had never flown any sort of RC aircraft when I got mine, but was flying comfortably from the first flight. Now with the gimbal and GoPro, I also have a FPV (first person view system) so that I can view on a monitor screen through the GoPro lens while flying, to frame stills and video. The Phantom is a stable GoPro platform for it's size and also gives you the skills for upgrading to a bigger quad with more lifting ability if your appetite is whetted.

The choice is probably between the Phantom 1 or 2, although I would ignore the F40 and the Phantom Vision. The vision has a very limited camera and a manual tilt only mechanism, so fitting your own camera and gimbal on the 1 or 2 is a better bet in my opinion. The range of the FPV on the P2 is also pretty limited.

Anyway, that's my 2 pence worth, hope it helps,

Roger

I have been flying my Phantom for about a year now with no problems, probably 40-50 flights. I have shot some amazing video footage which I've used in several professional shoots.

In my opinion, the Phantom "fly-aways" thing is blown out of proportion. If you read the manual, perform the correct pre-flight checks and maintain your Phantom properly, a fly-away is unlikely. I would guess most fly-aways are caused by the compass not being calibrated before flight, a full GPS lock not being obtained before flight, or just plain bad flying.

If my Phantom does start behaving strangely (it has once or twice due to bad compass calibration), just switch the GPS off, problem solved.

In saying all that, I would buy the DJI F550 over the Phantom if I had the money. Much more stable in the wind and can carry a heavier load (camera and/or battery).

Thanks everyone. Roger and Jody, you confirmed what I've been thinking. In my own aviation experience (both with RC gliders and hang gliding) 99.99% of all accidents are due to pilot error. I learned from hang gliding that you can literally never be too careful---and that an ironclad routine (including preflight checklists) is vital. I also learned to always be willing to wait for calmer (or more predictable) weather when conditions are borderline.

As for higher-end platforms and flying better cameras, we've actually produced broadcast television spots that have won national awards using GoPro cameras. And that was with the Hero 2. The Hero 3 produces an even better image, so I know for certain that in good light, the image we'd get with a Hero 3 would be more than good enough for our university video productions (the vast majority of which are destined for YouTube).

My thinking also is that by going with the most minimal tool that gets the job done, we minimize our investment (should anything ever go wrong), and the Phantom 2 would likely do less damage if it falls out of the sky than a much bigger hex- or octa-rotor platform.

As part of my pre-purchase research, I've been wondering where the greatest number of RC copter videographers hang out? I found this web forum...
Multi Rotor Forums (http://www.multirotorforums.com/forum.php)
...which seems pretty big, yet after making the same initial post there I did above, I've gotten zero responses after 3 days (so I'm doing better here!).

Now my task is to find the best Phantom 2 package. Though I know sometimes you do better assembling a kit yourself, I don't really have the time. I'd rather go with a turnkey combo package with copter, extra batteries, charger, battery level checker, Hero 3, Zenmuse gimbal, and wireless video monitoring.

So far Dronefly.com's package looks pretty good...
Phantom 2 Production Kit Combo (http://www.dronefly.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=P2G-PCK)

Although DSLRPros.com seems to have a lot as well:
Aerial Film & Photography Rig Kits | GoPro Rigs | Dslrpros.com | DSLR Rigs|Products|Dslrpros.com (http://www.dslrpros.com/Products/tabid/94/List/0/CategoryID/59/Level/a/language/en-US/Default.aspx)
I need to study all their different kits to understand the differences.

I'm definitely interested in their "waterproofing" process using Liquipel (we have a big river that runs past campus, so I'd love to be able to track the rowing team in flight over water)...
DSLRPros - Watersafe Updrade Service for your quadcopter | DSLR Rigs|Products|Dslrpros.com (http://www.dslrpros.com/Products/tabid/94/List/0/ProductID/119/language/en-US/Default.aspx)

Any other suggestions are appreciated!

Scott, if you are thinking of a Multirotor, then there is only one group really worth joining in my opinion, that is RCgroups.com Here is the link to the current part of the main Phantom 1 thread DJI Phantom Quadcopter - Page 1634 - RC Groups (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1774685&page=1634) It already has about 25,000 posts over 15 months with as many new posts as you can keep up with.

On other parts of the forum, you will find sections on everything you could probably think of re RC aircraft etc. There are different threads on various Phantom and other DJI models, plus everything else.

Have fun :-)

Roger

I looked hard at the Phantom 2 before deciding on the Phantom 1. There is a considerable difference in price and I felt that the only real advantage was the larger battery. As that is about 5 times the price of the P1 battery, I decided I could manage without. There are also a number of mods that have been made for adding bigger batteries to the P1, so I am still very happy with my choice.

The P2 is geared for the Zenmuse gimbal which is very good, but how much better than other gimbals doesn't convince me. I took a chance on a cheap gimbal from Goodluckbuy in China (Yeah I know). It cost me less than £60 with free UK delivery and arrived in exactly 10 days. It is simple to fit straight from the box, although there are no instructions, but there are plenty of users out there to offer help including me. I was so pleased with the gimbal that I ordered another last week as it had been reduced to £50 and this time paid for DHL tracked delivery. I received it 3 days after ordering!!! Again no problems and it was working 10 minutes after arriving. Just needs power from the quad battery balance connector to the supplied socket and 1 wire from the gimbal to the Phantom Naza board plug if you want to use the tilt lever on the TX.

I also fitted a Chines fpv Tx/Rx for £29, works perfectly and I can now view on my screen in real time what the GoPro is seeing, for framing pics and video.

If you are looking to watch your budgets, then there are plenty of ways to do it.

Roger

I'd have to agree that the Phantom 1 is the way to go. The Phantom 2 does have a great battery, but they are not cheap to replace. You can pick up spare batteries for the Phantom 1 for less than $10 US each, as opposed to $160 for the Phantom 2 battery.

I'd have to agree that the Phantom 1 is the way to go. The Phantom 2 does have a great battery, but they are not cheap to replace. You can pick up spare batteries for the Phantom 1 for less than $10 US each, as opposed to $160 for the Phantom 2 battery.

WoW! That's an even bigger difference than in the UK!

Roger

Yeah, I bought about 5 of these a few weeks ago:
Turnigy 2200mAh 3S 20C Lipo Pack (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8932__Turnigy_2200mAh_3S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html)

Probably not the highest quality batteries available but for the price, they'll do! And Turnigy is a decent brand, had no issues with numerous products in the past.

Yes I bought some of the same batteries a few weeks back and they seem to fly as well as the standard DJI ones for half the price. Managed to find a UK supplier that does 2 for £17.99.

Roger

Yes I bought some of the same batteries a few weeks back and they seem to fly as well as the standard DJI ones for half the price. Managed to find a UK supplier that does 2 for £17.99.

Roger

Have you got the details of that supplier Roger? Thinking of stocking up on a few more batteries now than the weather is improving!

cheers

bill

Have you got the details of that supplier Roger? Thinking of stocking up on a few more batteries now than the weather is improving!

cheers

bill

Hi Bill,

Here is the link, although it looks like they have gone up by £1 in the last few weeks, still good value though Turnigy 2200mAh 3S 20C 30C burst Lipo Pack lipo battery parcelforce 48 | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turnigy-2200mAh-3S-20C-30C-burst-Lipo-Pack-lipo-battery-parcelforce-48-/131034694202?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160)
I'm normally very cautious with Ebay sellers, but this guy is a genuine UK seller and I was staggered to receive the batteries the next day.

Roger

Thanks for the links Roger---I'm actually familiar with the RCGroups.com forums, but never even thought to look for a multicopter forum there---the Phantom thread is pretty epic!

So (at the risk of asking a more detailed question)...is the primary difference between the Phantom 1 and 2 just the battery? I'm a bit confused about whether you can put a motorized gimbal on the Phantom 1 or not? (I'm assuming you can, but just want to be sure.)

And are the stability and flight characteristics of the 1 versus 2 pretty much identical?

I also notice that DSLRPros offers a kit with a Futaba Tx that has (among other things) the ability to limit pan/rotation moves so they're much smoother---can you also do this with the Phantom 1 (just by using a Tx that has that more advanced capability)?

I'm not totally opposed to assembling a system component-by-component if it's pretty straightforward and plug-n-play. I just don't have the time to do extensive modding, soldering, assembly, etc. (which is why the all-in-one kits like the ones DLSRPros sells are so attractive).

Thanks,
Scott

PS - "Goodluckbuy" (hilarious name) does indeed seem to have a boatload of multicopter parts and accessories...

Hmmm not so sure going cheap on the power-plant fuel is a completely good idea.
I buy the most expensive and as a bonus get a couple more minutes air time

@ Bruce, I assume you are referring to the cheaper Turnigy batteries rather than the genuine DJI ones. I have found no advantages in the DJI ones at all, in fact I seem to get about 30 secs more from the Turnigy. From the forum reports though there seem to be one or two Chinese companies selling poor quality copies with greatly reduced flying times.

@Scott, apart from the larger battery, there really doesn't seem to be much else that the P2 offers. The spec talks about increased payload, but the motors appear to be the same as the P1.

I really can't see that adding a gimbal to the P2 is different to the P1. If you haven't done it before, it may seem daunting, but I was completely new to it and it was extremely simple. It involves attaching the mounting plate with two screw to the existing fitting threads on the shell, pushing the 4 rubber vibration grommets through the holes on the matching plate and plugging the lead into the battery balancing plug. No set up to do, it will level up out of the box. If you want to use the remote tilt lever, one lead needs connecting to the Naza plug, just a push fit both ends. The limits of travel and speed of movement of the manual tilt lever will need to be set up in the Phantom software to your own requirements, that would apply to any gimbal manual tilt.

As regards advanced features on the Futaba Tx, the basic control parameters on all aspects of the phantom attitude control including yaw are customisable from within the DJI assistant software with the standard DJI tx. So speed of response to inputs can be adjusted to suit your own requirements. There are always things that you could do to any RC control equipment to add range, extra channels etc if you feel so inclined, the question is do you need it?

The Phantom is tried and tested, it will carry a GoPro, 2 axis gimbal and fpv if required, it requires no soldering or fiddly assembling of components to be ready to fly and is very affordable. By all means pay an intermediary company to screw the legs and props on, connect up a Zenmuse gimbal and spray it with a waterproofer, but for the extra money, you would be getting close to the cost of a basic hexacopter. It's up to you to decide where to spend the money, but the Phantom 1 will give you a cheap and simple quad with minimal effort to fly.

Roger

Thanks Roger. Just screwing/bolting things on and connecting wires via plugs is no problem---I can handle that. :-)

I need to do a bit more research...but so far, I'm not seeing much of a reason for the Phantom 2's bigger batteries. I might be wrong, but my impression is that the bigger batteries don't increase flight time more than maybe 10%. If they DOUBLED flight times, that would be different!

But I also don't know how hard or easy it is to swap batteries on either Phantom. If it's as easy as landing, popping open a battery bay, swapping batteries, and launching again, no problem---I'd be fine with having plenty of fully-charged batteries on hand (for the Phantom 1) and just going with a new battery for every shot! :-) (But if the process is more involved than that, then I could see where longer flight times would be nice.)

I'm also interested in the differences---beside camera weight capacity---in the bigger hex- and octa-rotor platforms and the Phantom. My understanding is that the bigger platforms are more stable in wind (I guess due to greater overall weight and more props)...but do the bigger platforms also offer dramatically increased airtime per flight?

Scott

The Phantom 2 has a plug in battery which is self connecting, whereas the P1 has a battery door to open and a plug and socket to connect Both are very easy to do, with the P2 probably being more convenient. Many people, including me, cut a couple of slots in the door on the P1 which enables the battery connection to be made outside the housing for speed.

Hexacopters have more lifting power but this is also counterbalanced with more weight. Flying times aren't necessarily longer, because longer flying time requires bigger batteries and therefore more weight. It is a scale of diminishing returns, with a trade off of how much you want to lift against how long you want to fly. Another consideration is that greater weight carrying and endurance is also an expotentially increasing cost and maintenance scale.

The larger and heavier the platform, the more stable it is in higher winds, but a gimbal can make big differences to even a small quad, ironing out quite surprising turbulence. I stand by my original advice though, which is to start off simple and low cost to gain experience. Then if you want to upgrade later, you will have no problem selling on your working system.

Roger

Might already be posted in other threads but the new H3-3D three axis gimbal has now replaced the two axis. They should be shipping next week, eagerly awaiting mine, phantom 2 arrived today :)

John.

Might already be posted in other threads but the new H3-3D three axis gimbal has now replaced the two axis. They should be shipping next week, eagerly awaiting mine, phantom 2 arrived today :)

John.

I think if I wanted to spend $1000 on a gimbal, I wouldn't be putting it on a Phantom 1or2 !! i'll stick with my very satisfactory $75 2axis gimbal for now :-)

Roger

The $1000 includes the phantom 2 :)

John.

The $1000 includes the phantom 2 :)

John.

Yep, and I've read rumours that the gimbal itself is only $100 more than the original H3-2D gimbal, which would make it under $500 US.

It's a definite buy for me. The side-to-side movement that the original gimbal can't compensate for really ruins the footage in my opinion, so I'm looking forward to seeing how much better the 3-axis gimbal works.

The $1000 includes the phantom 2 :)

John.

I'll eat humble pie in that case, I must have misread the review :-(

I still wouldn't pay that amount for a gimbal to fly a GoPro on a Phantom, preferring to upgrade to a hexacopter and better camera if I wanted to go in that direction. I can understand feeling familiar with the Phantom platform, as I do myself, but it is still an entry level quad at the end of the day.

Roger

So I'm trying to get straight on how these gimbals work: with the 2D gimbal, you control tilt, but not pan; and with the 3D gimbal you control pan and tilt, right? (Just making sure I understand.)

If that's the case, then yeah, I think the extra $100 to control pan is well worth it.

One other random Q for you guys: in many of the GoPro vids I see from the Phantom 1-2 (and even some hexcopters), I often see the props at the top corners of the frame. I'm assuming this is either because operators just tilted too high...or used too wide a setting on the GoPro---is this correct?

I'm still researching what platform we'll buy. I found a complete F550 system sold by Helipal.com that looks good---it's basically all DJI components, they just assemble and test everything for you. Their demo vids look good, and they have excellent vids on assembly, control, etc. plus regularly updated PDF manuals.

DJI Sale DJI F550 V2.1 w/ NAZA V2 Flight Controller (RTF) - HeliPal (http://www.helipal.com/dji-flamewheel-f550-w-naza-v2-gps-drone-rtf.html)

Roger, your point about starting cheap is well-taken...but in our university environment, purchasing can be a bit of a bureaucratic process (that takes time), so I've learned it's often better to ask for more up-front and buy into the middle of a product line's range---rather than start near the bottom and step up gradually.

Helipal.com also has a breathtaking vid shot from the F550 of huge flocks of birds flying by. Really awesome, and the slo-mo improves it immensely.
DJI F550 (RTF) Flying with Birds - HeliPal.com - YouTube

Scott

2 axis gimbals stabilise motion in pitch and roll, 3 axis adds yaw stabilisation as well.

Props are visible in quite a lot of videos because the camera is set up for a horizontal view. As soon as the quad moves forward, it pitches forward and the props appear in the top of the camera view, because the gimbal takes out the pitching motion. The same is sometimes seen in roll, or when the quad is holding it's position against a side wind and leaning to one side to do so. A prop may well appear as the gimbal holds horizontal position.

The third axis stabilises unwanted yaw movements, although if the quad is set up for smooth yawing for panning shots, the stabilising can affect those movements in an unwanted way. If you are unable to get shots without unwanted yaw movement creeping in, then the 3 axis gimbal is the way to go.

I take your point about aiming at a higher budget allocation, in which case I would definitely go for the bigger package, with the Phantom to fall back on if you don't get the higher budget.

Roger

UPDATE: I continue to take my time with the purchase of our multicopter system. After narrowing things down to a DSLRPros Phantom 2 package or an XProHeli XP2 package, I discovered another (somewhat popular) American retailer/integrator of drone systems, Aerial Media Pros:
Aerial Media Pros (http://aerialmediapros.com/store/)

They attend NAB every year, and appear to be tight with DJI (they've been a leading American distributor of DJI gear for several years, supposedly). Their website is pretty good, and they inspire a bit more confidence (for some reason) than DSLRPros in terms of customer service.

Aerial Media Pros also sell F550 and Phantom 2 packages, and I've emailed them asking for their opinion on an F550 versus Phantom 2 (not only because I like gathering as many opinions as possible, but also as a routine test of their customer service response---though they're at NAB this week so I know I might not get a prompt response).

@Jody Arnett: you mentioned earlier thinking an F550 is a better choice than the Phantom, and this is what I'm hung-up on at the moment---whether to go with the quad or hex? The price difference between these isn't much.

One bit of technical info I still haven't found an answer to is the following: will the Naza-M v2 controller work just like a Wookong WK-M and enable a hexacopter to still fly if one of the props or motors fails? If so, this strikes me as a reasonably good reason to go with the hex—that sounds like good insurance (whereas a quad will fall from the sky if a prop breaks or motor fails).

The other question I'm still not satisfied on is...given a hypothetical scenario where you have a quad and a hex that are of identical weights and flying in identical conditions, which one would be more stable? (Remember, this is a hypothetical scenario!) I think you suggested, Jody, that the hex is more stable...but I've heard others suggest that stability is more a function of weight than number of props.

So which would do better in moderate winds? A heavy Phantom? Or a light F550? :-)

It may sound like I'm overanalyzing all of this, but I've learned it's good not to be in a rush over these things.

And since I've decided that I *definitely* want a 3-axis gimbal, it sounds like everyone is backordered now on the Zenmuse H3-3D gimbal. (@Roger, I don't know if Tarot or any other gimbal manufacturer has also come out with a less-expensive 3-axis gimbal for GoPros?)

Scott

Scott,

From what I've read, the F550 is more stable in the wind than the Phantom. I'm not sure if this is due to it generally being heavier than the Phantom, or if it is due to the extra two rotors. That's something I'll find out for myself when my F550 arrives. I'll keep you posted.

As for flying when a rotor fails, I think that feature is reserved for the Wookong controller.

Personally, my main reason for buying the F550 is future-proofing. I can add bigger batteries for more flight time. And when finances permit, I can add a better camera and gimbal.

Thanks Jody---future-proofing makes sense---I'd like to be able to carry larger cameras in the future with the same platform if possible...

Scott