Hi guys

What's your kit-list to attach various sound desks to your cam's XLR input for conferences (live speakers at a microphone on a podium)?

Company on verge of getting a new prosumer camera (possibly Sony's new HXR-NX3) which has a couple of XLR audio inputs.

The idea is for a 3rd party sound company to give us access to their mixing desk, from which we will attach whatever connector/cable is necessary in order to extract its audio and sent that directly to the video camera.

Basically we want a complete 'wired' 'swiss army knife' solution (connectors, adaptors, cables) to cover any eventuality should we encounter both 'cheap' and 'pro sound desks' at live conferences. As simplistic as possible to understand would be ideal!

So, what's your kit list? (connectors, cables--lengths, jacks, bits and pieces--any small item you think necessary)

Any thoughts or suggestions whatsoever would be truly appreciated.

Warm regards

I'm too lazy to search, and maybe you were, too, to find a thread awhile back listing exactly these items.

One mission critical item I almost always use are TRS-XLR patch cables. I soldered my own with Neutrik connectors and Canare cable, about a foot long, with a 1/4" TRS connector on one end and XLR on the other. This is because many sound boards I plug into offer only TRS outputs, e.g., direct outs, aux sends, etc. I made 6 because I typically multi-track stage productions, but if you're using only your camera, then I suppose 2 would do the trick.

Steven

Thought I'd do a fresh thread in case there were some new inventions etc since any older threads.

Thanks for the information about the TRS-XLR patch cables, very useful indeed, much appreciated.

Steven's suggestion really helped, so how about this--

Instead of a full kit list, what *mission critical* items would anyone here bring with them to video conferences etc that require taking live feeds from mixing desks of various quality?

Because I use an external audio recorder that can take line and mic levels, and I can attenuate both if I need, I seldom need anything else for taking sound off a TYPICAL board. In your case, however, I would definitely add in-line attenuators. Boards that are supposed to output line level can still overdrive inputs, especially the relatively cheap ones on video cameras. In fact, that happened at my last gig; I had to ask the FOH to turn down his line level outputs as they were still too hot for me.

Add a DI box or two to your kit. Super, super handy problem solvers. If, for whatever reason, you're forced to take unbalanced outs from a board, you're going to need a DI box, one per channel or one two-channel box. Converts high impedance unbalanced to low impedance balanced, attenuates if needed.


Cheers.

I have a bag in which I have just about every turn around, adapter and patch cable known to man. From XLR male and female to 1/4 and 1/4 to XLR M & F to mini to XLR male and female. RCA to 1/4 and back, I mean the list is huge.
This is stuff I've collected over the years and believe me when I say I probably have only used about 20% of the various connections but when I walk in to do a seminar I really don't know what the sound guy will have or give me to use and even though I know a lot of the sound guys I've worked with over the years sometimes they just can't (or won't) help you out so I'm prepared no matter what. As my first sergeant in Army basic training, back in the old days once said, "better to have it and not need it than to not have it and die for it".
Now granted we won't die for not having it but it could make the difference in being able to do the job or not. A lot of the stuff I have I got at Radio Shack. Most common connections for me are XLR so I carry a couple hundred feet of cable as well. You just never know what you'll need.

Because I use an external audio recorder that can take line and mic levels, and I can attenuate both if I need, I seldom need anything else for taking sound off a TYPICAL board. In your case, however, I would definitely add in-line attenuators. Boards that are supposed to output line level can still overdrive inputs, especially the relatively cheap ones on video cameras. In fact, that happened at my last gig; I had to ask the FOH to turn down his line level outputs as they were still too hot for me.

Add a DI box or two to your kit. Super, super handy problem solvers. If, for whatever reason, you're forced to take unbalanced outs from a board, you're going to need a DI box, one per channel or one two-channel box. Converts high impedance unbalanced to ow impedance balanced, attenuates if needed.


Cheers.

Magic, Steven, thanks.

I have a bag in which I have just about every turn around, adapter and patch cable known to man. From XLR male and female to 1/4 and 1/4 to XLR M & F to mini to XLR male and female. RCA to 1/4 and back, I mean the list is huge.
This is stuff I've collected over the years and believe me when I say I probably have only used about 20% of the various connections but when I walk in to do a seminar I really don't know what the sound guy will have or give me to use and even though I know a lot of the sound guys I've worked with over the years sometimes they just can't (or won't) help you out so I'm prepared no matter what. As my first sergeant in Army basic training, back in the old days once said, "better to have it and not need it than to not have it and die for it".
Now granted we won't die for not having it but it could make the difference in being able to do the job or not. A lot of the stuff I have I got at Radio Shack. Most common connections for me are XLR so I carry a couple hundred feet of cable as well. You just never know what you'll need.

Thanks Don, apart from the long cable what mission critical items are in your 20% that you commonly use, would you say?

Quarter to XLR male. Some of the sound systems I have to patch into leave me nothing more than a 1/4 to pull from so I have a few 1/4 to 1/4 cables and I need the XLR to get into the camera so that's a big one for me. Also RCA to XLR. Although THAT takes an RCA female to 1/4 male to a1/4 female to XLR male to camera. It's a real PITA. Those are my go to connections. I also make sure I have my audio bag just in case I have to play audio guy which honestly isn't my forte but I do what I need to. I used to run AV for a client at all of their seminars and I would end up with 2 or 3 laptops going thru the mixer as well as 3 to 6 mics so lots of different concoctions of connectors were needed.

Absolutely have a DI or two. The isolation and/or ground lift can be a gig saver when somethings 'not quite right'. Many here use the affordable Rolls DB25(B) passive DI. Both models have attenuation and ground lift capabilities. Obviously you will still need a some adapters or custom cables for HP, RCA, 1/4" outputs.
Personally, I won't leave home w/o a few IL19s (1:1 iso transformer) either.

Looks like Don's advice is consistent with mine. Be aware that RCA outputs are unbalanced, so if you must use (or are only given) these, use a DI box as close to the source (board) as possible: RCA in, XLR out. You don't want to have long runs of unbalanced signal else you stand the risk of introducing all manner of noise. If I was shooting next to the board, in a pinch without a DI box, then I might feel comfortable with a short run of RCA-XLR cable.

At least three or four 50-foot XLR M/F "mic cables".
I find indispensable: Rolls DB25b "passive direct-box" Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products DB25b (http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=DB25b) I have four of them. These are great for: isolation, unbalanced to balanced conversion, and continuously-variable attenuation TO ACCOMMODATE A VERY WIDE RANGE of source signal levels.

Since the Rolls DB25 has 1/4-inch inputs, I have several 2~3 ft cables with 1/4-inch TS (unbalanced) on the DB25 end, and on the other end:
* 1/4-inch TS -- for both balanced and unbalanced 1/4 inch outputs
* Female XLR -- for XLR outputs
* 1/4-inch TRS with T connected to S (for "insert" jacks on individual channels where necessary.
(NOTE THAT THESE SHOULD NEVER BE CONFUSED WITH REGULAR TRS CABLES!!!!!)
* RCA
* 3.5mm to two RCA or 1/4-inch TS
1/4-inch TS to RCA adapter plugs

I also have some XLR Male-to-Male and Female-to-Female "turnaround" adapters where the venue send your feed back through an existing "mic input" available run.

I also have a spare microphone and a small boom stand in reserve for places where you just have to put up your own mic. Or cases where you need to record something that is "acoustic" and not accommodated in the venue sound system. Audience reaction is a very common example.

And, actually, a case back in the van full of other odd bits and adapters and cables collected over several decades of doing all sorts of audio and video things.

Just out of curiosity, Steven, could you explain to me how an RCA output (which I understand is the same as what we usually call a "phono" in these parts) could ever be balanced as it has only a ground and a signal connection? Not trying to be a smarty pants, just puzzled. :-)

Just out of curiosity, Steven, could you explain to me how an RCA output (which I understand is the same as what we usually call a "phono" in these parts) could ever be balanced as it has only a ground and a signal connection? Not trying to be a smarty pants, just puzzled. :-)

No, I cannot because it never is. (I realized and just corrected my ambiguous statement.) Thanks for the catch.

Peter,

These guys are covering the adapters and cables. A small field mixer to control your feed is also useful. The other very important thing is a back up recording for safety purposes. I just saw the Tascam DR60 reduced again. On sale now at B&H for $184.99 with a copy of plural eyes. It has a limiter and a safety record mode for a track at -12db below the other track. It could be your life saver. You will be dealing with EXTREAM level changes. From the person that whispers into a mic to my personal favorite: the PowerPoint guy who downloaded audio stingers into his slides from the web and the audio guy who did not check their levels. All of a sudden the fifth slide hits and BOOM, audience members are knocked out of their chairs! Presenters can not be expected to understand normalization, but any audio guy that goes live without checking all his levels is an idiot.

So my method...limit and or compress, back up, back up, back up. Sometimes one of those back ups is my own lav on the presenter, if the situation permits. I think a mistake some video guys, that are not familiar with corporate AV make is the assumption that it will be just some guy standing at a podium. I have worked on shows with a budget of $100,000.00 per day.

Bottom line....be prepared for anything in corporate AV.

Steve

Peter, I am not assuming you are not familiar with av. I respond to assist everyone ;)

<SIGH>

Considering some SERIOUS heavyweights chimed in the last time, I strongly encourage you to check the previous post on the topic and keep ALL the information in the same place...

Mister Digges starts it off with some GREAT advice and a bunch of us other folks vamp on that...

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/512876-surviving-your-experience-audio-guy.html

All of a sudden the fifth slide hits and BOOM, audience members are knocked out of their chairs! Presenters can not be expected to understand normalization, but any audio guy that goes live without checking all his levels is an idiot.

Steven, I thought that guy was in my area and I was the only who had the luck to work with him.
The worst part....EVERYONE looked at ME because I had a feed from the desk to the camera. Yeah like it was MY fault! Trust me, that audio guy never worked any show I was on again. I called the boss at the AV company I was hired thru told him what happened and the next day one of the great guys was there.

Don,

Long day of editing for me. Checked the board before retiring and once again you cracked me up. That is funny only because I know your pain. I hope it was not one of those gigs were the AV company took a classic short cut because they did not want to rent a sports lens. That is the short cut were they put you on a riser smack in the middle of the room full of people instead of the back of house where you belong? "Everyone thought it was me because I had a feed from the desk." Your lucky some guest did not throw a piece of bad ballroom chicken at you :)

Thank you Shaun. Peter, Shaun knows I am not a heavy hitter, I just have a sense of humor. It was everyone else that vamped in that made that a really good thread.

Steve

Never xlr to jacks of any kind, balanced or unbalanced. Always a couple passive DIs to cope with mono or stereo. Then unbalanced ¼" to TRS wired only to tip and sleeve, so it doesn't matter if the output is balanced or unbalanced. I also have 2 x ¼" to 3.5mm for iPods, or computers, and 2x ¼" to 2x RCA phonos. This covers pretty well all bases. I also have a couple of old Sennheiser wireless receivers in case I need to 'steal' a feed from a wireless system that might be on the go! If the event is complicated then it means an extra person and lots more gear.

I have a 3.5mm to XLR lead that came with the camera. I went to use it the other day from the headphones port of the old desk at our church. I have a 3.5 - 6.5 mm adapter. All well and good so far. I added on an XLR lead to reach the camera, only to find I had the female end of the lead and the port on the camera is female.

Luckily I was setting up early. I raced off to the audio shop and got an XLR male to male adapter.

Wow great posts! Thank you all so very much!

Came across this bad boy while scouring older threads:

XLR Audio Adapter - XLR-BP - PRO XLR Audio Adapter For Camcorders and Video Cameras (http://www.studio1productions.com/xlr-bp_pro.htm)

Anyone used it?

Peter,
Personally I have not used that piece of gear but I know a couple of guys that have. Years ago they were using Sony VX2000 cameras and that of course didn't have XLR inputs. they picked this box up and swore by it.
I HAVE purchased things from the supplier in question and had really good service but keep in mind this was 10 to 12 years ago. I'll assume it hasn't changed.

Steven...Were you at that seminar? They rented a JVC HD250 with the Fuji 17. The client in their infinite wisdom decided that they wanted to record to tape. In the camera. Really? Why not rent a deck and run back to a DVCAM large shell tape at the desk so you're not changing tape every hour which on that camera takes about 30 to 40 seconds, and now your precious seminar is on 1 or 2 tapes instead of 6 which can be....wait for it! LOST! Yep you guessed it. they did lose 1 of the tapes. I gave them to the contact there at the end of the day they signed off for 6 tapes and sure enough the next day they only had 5. Once again they came to me and swore I only gave them 5. They shut up when I showed them the sheet they had signed stating 6. It was then (about 90 minutes before we were due to start day 2 - I'm a big early bird. Get there, power up, drink coffee, and back then smoke a cigarette or 5) I called the AV company talked to the guy that booked the show and told him to send a Sony deck and a few large shell tapes along with whatever cables needed to go from the Folsom to the deck. 45 minutes later it arrived and he and I had it going in about 7 minutes. Problem solved!
Going back to the audio I had it all set up the day before the seminar was to start and when I arrived on the morning of the first day my cable was GONE! I guess the audio guy needed 1 more cable somewhere and decided to "borrow" mine! After going to the road box and finding about another 1000 feet of XLR that he could of easily found, I ran the cable and taped it down in full view of most of the seminar attendees. when the presenters PPS decided to blow the wax out of everyone's ears, I swear...it felt like every eye in the place was on me. THAT'S when I decided I was going to spend time in jail for knocking off the audio guy. I had figured that I was going to hang him from the highest truss with a 25 foot XLR. Better judgment took over and I didn't do that as I wouldn't do well in jail...so I simply called my guy at the AV company and had him replaced.
I'd be willing to bet you and I could swap stories for a long time. Some funny, some sad, some stupid and some just unexplainable! ;-)

In addition to several Rolls DB25b for devices that only have mic-level inputs, I have several two-channel Ebtech Hum Eliminators and a couple of Ebtech two-channel line-level shifters for devices with line-level inputs.

These are great for isolating the line-level feed from ground-loop hum and converting to and from balanced to unbalanced in either direction.

The level shifter box does the same, as well as converting between -10db and +4db in either direction.

Don, your story reminds me of so many of my own...

I've always said a GOOD audio tech is worth their weight in gold but that most A/V companies parade that around when they send some clown out who doesn't have a hot clue how to make an event work.

I had a guy last year argue with me for 45 MINUTES that the XLR line he was giving me "worked fine". I changed out five pieces of gear before I walked over and looked at the console. Yamaha digital. Threw some headphones on and I heard that telltale sound of digital AES audio.

Told the SENIOR audio tech to flip it to analog audio, if you please. He argues some more. I called the site manager over and told him what my findings were. Manager dude dismissed audio tech guy for a meal break and went into the menus and found that in fact the board was sending DIGITAL AES audio out of the XLR patches I was connected to. All of a sudden my sound was there.

Oh and five days later as I was driving through the mountains the manager dude called me up to ask "um... you were recording video of all that, right? Because our audio recorder messed up and we don't have the proceedings for transcription like we were contractually OBLIGATED to provide"

I said "So in OTHER words, the tech didn't flip THOSE outputs to analog either AND he didn't both to monitor the recorder"

Silence.

I don't mind covering someone else's butt but this was stupidity at it's finest.

I'm working in that facility again this fall. Guess who WON'T be behind the console...

Stupidity and incompetence. I hate the latter more than the former. The former can be overcome with some books or OTJ training if the person is willing. The latter...well it can be overcome after they get over themselves and their stupidity.

That story of yours brought so many memories of stupid and incompetent people I've had to work with over the years, I almost want to cry.

I will go for the obscure. As I have mentioned before, my kit is always growing, it will never be done. Last week I had an intermittent connection in a 1/8” output on a LANC control unit. When I went for my tool kit I saw my Dremel and thought mmmm. Sure enough, I found an all metal slightly abrasive bit with a perfectly cylindrical surface extending about ¼” down from the top. It looked to be less than 1/8” in diameter. Very carefully (with my fingers of course, not the dremal) I inserted it into the 1/8” hole. It was perfect! A couple of gentle swabs with it, then a squirt of Radio Shack contact cleaner and I was good to go. The bit now lives in my tech kit that goes everywhere with me, not back in the tool box. That Dremal is not even the real deal. It is a cheap POS I bought a Harbor Freight on sale for $8.00. That bit makes the 8 bucks worth it.

Disclaimer: The output I fixed is on a Manfrotto LANC camera controller that replaces the handle on a tripod. It is probably 10 years old. If it were to fail again, it would be an inconvenience, not a show stopper. I am hard a** about trying to make sure nobody puts ANYTHING intermittent in a mission critical place. If it failed once, it IS going to fail again. I did NOT repair it, I temporarily fixed it. That controller will now be used on sets where we are shooting in controlled circumstances, not on live event coverage. Most of the time we run CCUs for those anyway.

Shaun, your AES save was over my head, good catch! As I have said, I am not an A-1. The digital boards pose a problem for me. With analog boards, even I can trace signal until I find the problem. There is now way, at this point in my career that I am going to learn the programming on every digital board I see.

Yes, Don…the war stories. I would love to exchange them sometime. Many of mine were not funny at the time, but after all the bleeding stopped we laugh a lot.

Steve

Don and Steven: any chance you guys are going to NAB this year? If so, first round is on me. Love to finally get to meet you both.

Happy days, I got confirmation from the sound man that they use the following sound desks and I may find myself having to connect to any one of them.

"Midas pro2-c (digital) x 2

Midas venice x 3

yamaha M7 (digital)

Dynachord powermate

Allen and heath mix wizards

We use Midas for anything important as they are generally accepted to be the best availible. The ohter desks are used for small hires and rock and roll."


So, now I need to finalise a kit list that will grab microphone audio from any of the above and bring it into the XLR socket on a camera. Will have a careful read through this thread and assemble a provisional kit list for your viewing pleasure :o)

Every year I tell myself, "I'm going to NAB this year" and every year something else comes up and prevents me from going. So not this year. Again. Sorry.
I have marked out all of next April since I don't know the exact dates of NAB in 2015 and G*d willing and the creek don't rise...I'll be there. 2015!

"they use the following sound desks and I may find myself having to connect to any one of them"
Any/all are easy to patch to. A competent operator is another story. A full split would be recommended, avoiding operator incompetence all together. Of course that entails a competent mixer for the recording and additional associated expenses, set-up time, ect.

Hey Shaun,

I was hoping to go too. But something better came up. I have a gig to work that week ;) I make hay when there is hay to make.

Maybe next year. I would love to meet the DVI guys!

Steve

+ 1 Rick

Peter,

I would not spend too much time going over that list. He sent you a list of common mixers with no stand out problems. The kit you need to cover that list is the same kit you need to go out there prepared to take a feed from a variety of boards anyway.

My vote is still to be sure you have some type of limiting capability. Excluding AGC!

Steve

Ehrm okay where I'm at is focusing on the 'chunky' bits of gear I require to cover the aforementioned sound desks, before I start drilling down to cables and adaptors.

So, as a one person crew, getting sound from a sound desk that is only podium microphone (no Powerpoint SFX or music) from reading through many forum posts I'm seeing the following kinds of items in common:

DI BOX (ROLLS DV25(B) )
HUM ELIMINATOR
Line Level Shifter
ATTENUATOR
Sound Devices 442 Field Mixer

Is there a single box or device that can do most or all the tasks that the above do all by itself? If there was one box/device that could do all the above, then I think it would be a lot less mind-bending (for my nitwit brain) to focus on what exact cables I would require.

Any thoughts really appreciated!

Hi Peter,

Good start. I think the Sound devices 422 has been discontinued. But any Sound Devices field mixer will be an excellent addition to your kit. Your paying for arguably the best pre-amps in the business. That mixer will also take care of the limiting option I keep suggesting.

The Rolls DI will have a hum elimination switch on it. That is a simple ground lift that works like magic, sometimes. So that is two things on your list in one. Unless you are considering a true electronic hum eliminator?

Attenuaters come in lots of flavors?

If you can afford it....the Sound Devices 552 mixer is also a recorder. That would be a source of one back up for you.

A single podium mic? Every time, for sure? I thought we were helping you get ready prepared to walk into any AV situation?

Some might say a SD mixer is over kill for that. If you can afford the best, buy the best.

Steve

Edit: In this sound forum I ask and read more posts than I respond to because there are guys here far more technical than me. Listen to them. I got involved in yours because I do know something about AV. I am not the final word here.

You can probably find a used Sound Devices 302 mixer for around US $1,000. (It is only a mixer, not a recorder, too.) It is bullet proof, has three channels, and has absolutely stellar pre-amps with colorless limiting and two low cut options per channel. I've never regretted using it. It will stay in my sound kit until I drop dead, probably.

Thanks Steven and Steven :o)

If I could prepare for only individual people speaking at a podium for now, which is coming soon, I could look for the extra equipment to cover music over the next few months -- there is no musical event any time soon. Getting some 'foundation' equipment for now to primarily cover individual people speaking would be great.

So, I'm looking at Sound Devices 442 Field Mixer with the Rolls DB25b Matchbox Direct Box/Pad/Ground Lift attached to it. Think these two bits of gear would be a good base to start from?

Rolls DB25b Matchbox Direct Box/Pad/Ground Lift
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolls-DB25b-Matchbox-Direct-Ground/dp/B004FKIUDU

Sound Devices 442 Field Mixer
Sound Devices 442 Field Mixer (http://www.proav.co.uk/Sound-Devices-442-Field-Mixer/p16661.aspx)

So, I guess the method of linking/attaching the above might be as follows:

Mixing desk (whatever output they can afford me) goes to...
...Rolls DB25b Matchbox Direct Box/Pad/Ground Lift, which goes to...
...Sound Devices 442 Field Mixer, which goes to...
...the XLR line input on the SONY HXR-NX3/VG1

How does that "sound" to get me up and running?

What advantages for me, as a single camera outfit, would a Sound Devices 442 Field Mixer have over a Sound Devices 302 mixer -- or would there not be much difference between them for my purposes?

Peter, so far as your requirements for "chunky" bits of gear are concerned, your short list above looks OK. The first time I connected to a board, I downloaded the instruction manual and educated myself on what signal I probably would get. In your case, perhaps you really don't know. I'd throw in one attenuator and one Rolls DB25b per channel that you think you'll need.

The SD442 gives you one more channel and some nice additional features over the SD302. So, obviously, either is massive overkill if you need just one channel for the person speaking at a podium. I like to buy gear with future expansion in mind, and it sounds like you might, too, so think about needs for more channels: instead of one person at a podium, you might record a panel discussion with several people. Then more channels are required. You can mix to taste on the mixer -- duh! -- and route two channels to the L output, two to the R output, and then be able to isolate two speakers per channel. Or 3-into-1...you get the idea.

Your setup lacks any backup audio, however. You're relying entirely upon your camera to reliably lay down audio, to never falter, and then do so only through circuits and at a quality that are far, far inferior to the Sound Devices component earlier in your chain. Like dropping a V-8 into a Volkswagen.

For far less than the price of the SD442, you could pick up a Roland 8 channel mixer/recorder (see picture below). (Not sure where in the UK you shop, so here is one useful link in the U.S.):

Roland R-88 8-Channel Recorder and Mixer R-88 B&H Photo Video

That would give you multi-track flexibility, mixing, limiting, recording, and whopping expansion for future work where you might need or want more channels. Then you could take one or two outputs, feed them into your camera's L and/or R channels, and lay down a backup (or scratch) audio track. Then you could sync in post using the audio waveforms. And you have some cash left in your pocket.

When I was building my audio kit, I got the SD302 and a 2-channel external recorder. Now I use a Tascam HS-P82 8 channel recorder, which is great for stage productions. I still use the 302 and smaller recorder from time to time, mainly for run-and-gun audio-for-video, but I could have saved money in the long run by splashing out for the 8-channel up front.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info Steven,

Okay how does this seem to start off with (just recording a person speaking at a podium), with options to expand down the line:

Cable from whichever output I can get from the sound technician mixing desk output to...

...Attenuator ( ATTY Stereo Attenuator, Studio Volume Control, Line Level Volume Control, A Designs Audio (http://www.adesignsaudio.com/atty-stereo-attenuator.htm) ), which then goes into a...

Rolls DB25b Matchbox Direct Box/Pad/Ground Lift
Rolls DB25b Matchbox Direct Box/Pad/Ground Lift: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolls-DB25b-.../dp/B004FKIUDU) which then goes via a cable into a...

Roland R-88 8-Channel Recorder & Mixer
Roland R-88 8-Channel Recorder & Mixer (http://www.proav.co.uk/Roland-R-88-8-Channel-Recorder-Mixer/p31943.aspx) which then goes into...

.....the XLR line input on the SONY HXR-NX3/VG1 ?

Yep. Looks solid to me for starting with your project. With any luck, you won't even need the attenuator and Rolls. I view those as problem solvers, so if you have no problems with the board feed (balanced, not too hot), then you don't need solvers.

By the way, make sure you do the following on your camera (and I don't mean to suggest you failed to realize this already): the Roland and just about every other mixer outputs at line level. So make sure your camera's XLR inputs are set to line, not mic. It will be painfully obvious if you don't. ;) Set your camera's audio control to manual. The Roland should have a toggle switch or button to generate a 1kHz tone. Flip that on, then adjust your camera's audio pots so the level peaks at -12. (Some camera's audio display even show a little tick mark or hash at -12.) Then you know your camera's audio has plenty of headroom to handle audio peaks.

You can't control costs of these components, but you sure can save money by building your own cables. Perhaps for this one project you'll just buy whatever cables you need with the appropriate connectors, obviously XLR and maybe TRS from the board. For the future, however, I can't more highly recommend building your own that will last a lifetime.

Good luck!

Steve R. This has become a long thread. many of us have stressed the importance of a back up track.

Peter, your first post this morning about just one guy at the podium is a game changer. You started this thread of asking about feeds from a board to be prepared for everything. You asked the clients audio guy about which boards he uses, so he gave you a list. He may not always use one of them!

Having just one speaker at a podium opens up another possibility here that could blind side you. There may not be a mixer in the room at all. For a single presenter it is common to tie into nothing but the crappy house sound system. The XLR goes into a wall jack and the mixer could be in a cat walk three floors up.

For just one presenter I am going to put my OWN lav on him. If there is a board in the room I would record that for a back up feed.

I don't have time to explain everything I want to but your last two posts make it clear you don't understand all that we have tried to explain. The Rolls is an attenuator, you don't need to put another one in front of it. And as Steve R said, you need to know when you need them or not.

We have talked a lot about adapters and in line tools. Adapter rule number ONE still applies. Never put anything in line that does not have to be there.

Steve

...The Roland should have a toggle switch or button to generate a 1kHz tone. Flip that on, then adjust your camera's audio pots so the level peaks at -12. (Some camera's audio display even show a little tick mark or hash at -12.) Then you know your camera's audio has plenty of headroom to handle audio peaks.
...It should be mentioned that setting 0dBu tone coming out of the mixer to -20 or -18 dBFS on the camera meters results in normal speech (0 to +4 on the mixer meter) hovering around -12dBFS. Your suggested method can result in reduced headroom in the camera.

Never xlr to jacks of any kind, balanced or unbalanced. Always a couple passive DIs to cope with mono or stereo.

May I ask why you say this? Is the reason for the possible impedance and level mismatches or just for precautionary isolation?
My bag of tricks includes some XLR to TRS cables and a bandolier of attenuators. I stopped using DI boxes (except for guitars and keyboards) after finding they caused more problems than they solved.

My bag of tricks includes some XLR to TRS cables and a bandolier of attenuators. I stopped using DI boxes (except for guitars and keyboards) after finding they caused more problems than they solved.

I have 4 Whirlwind IMP-2 DIs. Bought them brand new. After occasional headaches with sound not getting passed correctly, I figured I'd TEST them all. Yup. One dead one.

I use DIs where they make sense and cable adaptors where THEY make sense.

YMMV.

For the SONY HXR-NX3/VG1 camera we're getting, the Audio Input is as follows:

XLR-type 3-pin (female) (x2), line/mic/mic +48 V selectable

I take it that means that I would need a female XLR connection on the camera side?

As regards everything else, I'm admittedly lost, but trying my best to understand, so I am going to carefully read more and return once I'm a bit more up to speed. I truly appreciate your patience with me.

Things I think I've learned so far:

It's better to have audio recorded from the mixing desk (both as backup and as a higher quality recorded) into something like the Roland R-88 8-Channel Recorder & Mixer-- which not only records the audio in a higher quality than the SONY HXR-NX3/VG1 camera can manage (is this strictly true?), but also it features a limiter, which will prevent sound passing through it from leaving it in the 'red'.

Only if the limiter on the Roland R-88 is unable to prevent the levels from going in the 'red' (but surely a limiter can handle high levels--maybe it can't handle VERY high levels?), it is then that I introduce an attenuator such as a ROLLS DV25(B) passive DI to take the sting out of the levels. I can also use the ground lift switch on this device for hum elimination if needs be.

For the SONY HXR-NX3/VG1 camera we're getting, the Audio Input is as follows:
XLR-type 3-pin (female) (x2), line/mic/mic +48 V selectable
I take it that means that I would need a female XLR connection on the camera side?

No.
Mic inputs in general (including your camcorder) have FEMALE inputs, and they require a MALE connector to plug into them. Most connectors remain steadfastly hetro-sexual despite societal changes. Homosexual (or more correctly "hermaphroditic") connectors are quite rare these days.

It's better to have audio recorded from the mixing desk (both as backup and as a higher quality recorded)
That is a complex issue that does not work well as a simple generic question. Certainly there are many cases where recording from the venue sound system provides a mix that may be impossible to achieve by any other method. But it has its limitations and is not a universal solution.

into something like the Roland R-88 8-Channel Recorder & Mixer-- which not only records the audio in a higher quality than the SONY HXR-NX3/VG1 camera can manage (is this strictly true?),
No, it is no strictly true. Certainly pro-sumer digital recorders like the Roland (and Zoom and Tascam, and Sony, et.al..) are better than low end consumer camcorders and DSLRs of ANY price/quality. But better video camcorders with proper XLR inputs are roughly equivalent to most of those portable digital audio recorders. There are advantages and disadvantages to using separate audio recording devices. Again this is a complex issue for which there are no simple general-purpose answers.

but also it features a limiter, which will prevent sound passing through it from leaving it in the 'red'.
Yes having access to limiters and compressors is a useful tool to manage recording levels. But again, it is not a universal solution as they are frequently too "mechanical" for high-quality use, and typically make music sound terrible.

Only if the limiter on the Roland R-88 is unable to prevent the levels from going in the 'red' (but surely a limiter can handle high levels--maybe it can't handle VERY high levels?),
Correct. Limiting is useful for taming unruly level differences. But it is NOT a solution for proper level matching. A limiter won't solve the problem of taking a line-level signal and feeding it into a mic-level input.

it is then that I introduce an attenuator such as a ROLLS DV25(B) passive DI to take the sting out of the levels. I can also use the ground lift switch on this device for hum elimination if needs be.
The Rolls DB25 is a great little gadget. I have four of them along with a kit-bag of cables and adapters to accommodate connecting to a wide variety of connectors and signal levels.

It's better to have audio recorded from the mixing desk (both as backup and as a higher quality recorded) into something like the Roland R-88 8-Channel Recorder & Mixer-- which not only records the audio in a higher quality than the SONY HXR-NX3/VG1 camera can manage (is this strictly true?), but also it features a limiter, which will prevent sound passing through it from leaving it in the 'red'.


I don't disagree with anything that Richard wrote. In light of your ORIGINAL question (post #1), concerning the ability to record from boards, I would add that a multitrack recorder gives you flexibility that in-camera recording does not. If you must (or want) to connect a camera to a board feed, you live with the mix from the board. However, when you can lay down several tracks, e.g., 8, you could record (up to) 8 channels (or sub mixes) from the board and then mix to your own taste. Otherwise, you trust the board operator to fade channels and apply any FX that you can live with.

In one instance where my confidence in the operator was almost nil, I just took a few direct outs from the board. In another with more than 30 channels, including instruments, stage mics, and nearly a dozen wireless mics, I relied on the experienced operator to provide me a with a few post-fade mixes through the board's aux sends, all to excellent effect.

In no case do I EVER rely upon my recorder's limiters. Though the limiters are armed, I set levels so that a rare spike is the only thing that might engage the limiters.

Even a direct output (or pre-fader send) is subject to the board operator skills (or lack thereof). The direct out can still subject to preamp overload and an external comp/limiter wouldn't help. A transformer mic-split would be the 'safest', of course that requires an additional skilled person and more gear. Even then, an awful mix could acoustically would get into the room mics or even the spot mics to an extent.

I gave this tread some thought and tried to figure out how to simplify it for you. I can’t. The problem lies in your original question about “how do I do it in ALL situations”. That is liking asking me to put everything I have leaned in 20 years in one paragraph, it can’t be done.

What separates a basic camera operator from the guy that gets it right every time is experience and knowledge. The guy that can always get it right is a technician.

Everyday there are a lot of guys out there recording conferences with a couple of cables and maybe a sub mixer (if that) and recording decent audio. Some of them are probably reading this thread and thinking, what are we doing to the poor OP? The basics work in a perfect world. Beyond that, your screwed if you do not understand how to adapt to the real world. Conference audio guts messed up a LOT. Even by AV companies that have their own technicians working on it.

The root of ALL audio is about signal flow. Explaining signal flow is beyond the scope of any simple forum thread. I think you said you picked up Jay Rose’s book on recording good digital audio. That is a great place to start. It will be much easier for us to help you with specific questions instead of broad sweeping ones. Richard did a great job of breaking down your last post, but I suspect you are still scratching your head. There is no easy answer to complex audio situations.

I have learned to THINK of audio in terms of signal flow. You obviously want to learn. Start with the basics, and expand on your foundation from there. The basics of signal flow never change.

Steve

Good comments, Mr. Digges.

Above and beyond getting an appropriate mix, I think the basic concepts to keep in mind are:

1.) the difference between balanced and unbalanced signal wiring, and the different levels typically encountered,

2.) the causes of overload, distortion, clipping, and how to remedy same,

3.) the types and causes of various forms of unwanted electrical noise.

Once a person understands those concepts, then he will know which adapters to use, when and how to use a DI box, etc.

I'm pretty confident that Jay Rose covers those topics in detail, although I haven't looked over his books for a number of years.

One very important point. Once distortion is introduced at some link in the signal chain, you can't remove it at a later link. So the levels must be appropriate at every link (i.e. proper gain staging). And if the distortion is generated inside the house mixing desk (e.g. a mic preamp or a mix buss with gain set too high), there is nothing you can do with your equipment to fix it later. That's why the house equipment and house operator are such an important -- and scary -- variable in the whole equation.

Obviously, as Mr. Digges says, all of this requires more than one paragraph. On the other hand, it doesn't require calculus and it's not rocket science. (I wonder whether rocket scientists have an internet forum somewhere!)

Thanks so much for the feedback guys.

Here's where I'm at (responses from two sound companies I will be dealing with)

1. A sound technician from one company wrote "All our desks can supply you with audio via a quarter inch jack aux output, it will be unbalanced at line level."

2. A sound technician from another company wrote "Can provide auxiliary XLR out balanced. You would need to have a female XLR at 90% of desk' to get a feed. It would also be worth you having converters (XLR to Jack) and you will also need to convert the female XLR at the camera end to input the camera. Most pro camera's can accommodate XLR but smaller camera's may not, not my game."

My SONY HXR-NX3/VG1 requires a require a male XLR connector to plug into it.

What do you think he means by "female XLR at 90% of desk"?