I shoot with a Manfrotto 516 and their recommended carbon-fiber legs.
My camera setup varies in weight, but generally tops out at around 14 pounds.

When I shoot with long lenses (200mm+ on a super35 sensor), my footage is jumpy, especially when it's windy, but often even when I'm just holding the handle for a pan. I feel like I can see my pulse even, it's so touchy.

Is this a problem that could be solved with a more expensive head, heavier sticks, or both? Or just technique? Dial up the drag?

Or a less powerful heartbeat?

Finn, I just bought a tripod to get me over the same sorts of issues. I was trying to support an unbalanced rig of about ten pounds on a 128 head. At least a 516 is closer to spec for your weight load. I bought an old 117 tripod with a 116 MK3 head that is rated to 10kg (22 pounds) and have found it much better.

I think the 519 is now the current version of the head I got. I am uncertain what the legs you have got are like, but the 117 are a centre column style and very heavy.

You may wish to look at other brands for support for your gear, but I have no experience with them and will leave that to others to offer advice.

If you can, try to go to NAB this year. Test out the Sachtler and Vinten tripods and heads. Very pricey, but once you feel what a real fluid head is supposed to feel like, you'll see why Manfrotto isn't considered professional gear. Save up your money and invest in a tripod that supports twice the weight of your camera and lens. You'll have to buy a good tripod only once, as it'll last more than 20 years. Consider it an investment to your future. After all, what good are shaky shots?

There are sure to be better tripod systems to try, however I am a great believer in having some flexibility in the pan handle, as it is the handle that is conducting the vibrations caused by your heartbeat etc to your tripod set-up. A simple experiment you can try is to loop a rubber band around the pan-handle and then pull on the rubber band to pan and/or tilt. Better results are to be had if the rubber is stretched to about half the stretch it is capable of.

I use tapered plastic handles that have a spring at the operator’s end. For very slow movements with a long lens I use the tip of the spring, for faster movements I use a point nearer the camera.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/images/attach/jpg.gifhttp://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31846&stc=1&d=1392708502

If I had to use a rubber band or a spring to get good performance from my tripod, I would go mad. Or madder.

A Vinten Vision Blue tripod does not cost significantly more than the Manfrotto tripods, but it is a world away in performance.

I've said it before, if you have a good tripod you can forget about the device's limitations and concentrate on the shot. I don't get excited about my VB any more, it's just there, and it works. No rubber bands, no crazy pan handles, it just works.

Hi Mike,

I have tried a VB and found it to be unsatisfactory with a long lens and slow pans. Like the springs on a car the flexible handle or rubber band is very good at reducing vibrations. Try one sometime.

I've used the 'rubber-band trick' and it does work quite effectively. With that said, it's a stopgap method of achieving decent Pans and tilts with a less than adequate fluid head and sticks. Save yourself the aggravation and get a proper fluid head and sticks.

IHTH.

Regards,

J.

Hmm..............

Let's see.

Big camera + long lens + HD sensor + non counterbalanced head + dubious bearings in same + "no name" sticks.

What could possibly go wrong?

Problem: Your camera support capabilities are about 5 generations behind your cameras resolving power.

Solutions:

1. Downgrade camera to SD dinky cam with wide angle lens.

OR

2. Upgrade camera support to something costing $2,000 plus.

OR

3. Ditch video and take up fishing, it's cheaper.


CS

Thanks everyone for the advice so far. The flexible handle and/or rubber bands look interesting, but do seem as though they might introduce some limitations.

I have to roll my eyes a little bit at the members who are suggesting that I "get a decent tripod" or "spend more money." Yes, I get it. But rather than just throwing my money at whatever seems shiny and hoping that it works out for the best, I seek some specific and well-qualified advice on how to spend it, which I know I can find here.

Chris, I'm looking at you. $2,000 will get me this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/556278-REG/Manfrotto_526_536K_526_536K_536_Tripod_526.html
Which to my eye seems like exactly what I own now with the same sticks, 50% more weight capacity in the head, and a counter-balance. Will these things solve my issues?

BTW, pro fishing is about as expensive as pro videography, so no go there, I'm afraid.

Finn, I've also got a 516 head (on single-stage, aluminum legs). My 516 is a bit sticky these days, but it's no dainty, frail support system. Mine doesn't have (much) play, just stiction.

Regarding counterbalance, this is beside the point for pans. The head doesn't have "adjustable" counterbalance, but it is counterbalanced for something like 20 lbs with a center of gravity about five inches above the plate. But again, if you're not tilting, counterbalancing is moot.

And if you're getting jiggle in light wind, even the pan is moot - unless the head is loose somewhere. Vibrations due to wind point to the sticks, rather than the head. It could be due to the feet or pins and the surface. To test, try touching the tripod rather than the head and see if you still get vibration. Try wiggling each connection point to see if there is any particular loose item.

If the tripod is anchored well and has no obvious fault, you might improve things by just adding a rope and a weight. Tie the rope to the bottom of the tripod. (There should be a hook there.) Tie a steel weight or water jug to the rope so that it just touches the ground on one edge or corner. This keeps it from swinging free but still applies its weight to the assembly.

Lock down the pan and tilt and touch the handle. With enough weight, nothing broken, and a good connection to the ground, this will be as good as it gets. Any problems will be due only to flex and play rather than to the mechanical operation of the head. Next, unlock the pan and go side to side. Now you're seeing the tripod action and any wind up. Finally, try the tilt. (This is where mine is sticky.) Unless you've added height and weight, you won't be able to just let go and have it stay at any one position.

I've also got a Vinten 3AS with aluminum legs and mid-level spreader. Its motion beats the 516 hands down, but it's not perfect and my 516 setup might even be superior for locked-down stability. A weight helps the Vinten but the real solution was the 70-200/2.8L IS II lens, compared to the non-stabilized 200/2.8L II that I used previously. IS does wonders at removing micro-vibrations.

Your 516 will never be great for motion (especially tilts) but with a good connection to the ground, all connections tight, and enough weight, it might tide you over until you can upgrade - or get an IS lens! :)

Finn,

Try looking beyond Manfrotto. I don't know why people are obsessed with it.

$2000 should get you a lot of Vinten, Miller, Sachtler...

Sorry for the tardy response, was in the process yesterday when my decrepit (8 YO) PC decided to have a terminal cardiac arrest. Need some new silicon!

Think I may have been a bit conservative with that $2 k plus comment having checked out B&H subsequent.

The secret to "rock solid" support is pretty simple, sheer out and out grunt (decent design, materials and manufacture helps too).

Grunt weighs heaps and costs big. Grunt is also what you'll do every time you pick the thing up.

My Vinten FiberTecs (sadly no longer made) weigh in at about 5 kilos with spreader, add a decent head and you're looking at one heck of a lift, but man, have those things got grunt to spare.

They're rated to nearly 90 lbs tho' I think that's a trifle conservative. New price, sticks and spreader, from B&H back when, - US $2,700. Throw in the case and Vision 3 head, which I did, it topped out at over US $ 4 K.

6+ years ago!

So, where to from here?

Rather than me suggest anything in particular, let's draw up a few guidelines and see what our Sachtler and Vinten guru's can throw your way as testers.

Sticks:

Design load - 100 lbs or thereabouts

Format - 2:2:2 (2:2:1 I simply don't think will have the rigidity for those big lenses)

Bowl size - 100 mm (so much gruntier than 75 mm)

Spreader - Mid level

Max. Height - up to you, but the first two items will probably limit you to about 65 inches)

Center column - hell no!

Head:

75 mm should do fine. Full variable counterbalance (stepped, Sachtler; continuous, Vinten), side/ drop load nice but optional.

So, if you now fire mails to Barbara.Jaumann@VitecGroup.com (Sachtler) and Andrew.Butler@Vitec.Group.com (Vinten) they can suggest what systems they would recommend you try to see if they fit your requirements.

(I thought I had the mail address for the guy at OConner, can't find it. Not sure you want to spend that sort of brass though!).

Anyway, if you get a test system from each of the above, you get to decide whether either cuts the mustard and whether you want to spring for one, or not.

All it costs you is the return shipping after playtime, whatever you decide.

And no, I don't think you'll find anything in the Manfrotto line up that will do what you need.

It's got to be a better way to go than the "buy it and weep" alternative.

Good luck.


CS

Finn,

If you go to a town with a good video rental shop, stop in mid-day if you have a chance (after the morning pick ups and late afternoon returns.) Let them know you're not renting today but are checking out equipment for a possible future job. (Who knows? You might find something very nice that's way out of budget but perfect for that unknown future project.) Just move out of the way when a paying customer walks in. If you call ahead, you can make sure to be there on a less than crazy day.

They'll tell you what has been reliable and takes a beating and what didn't work out. You can probably try one of their long lens setups and shoot something at the far end of the shop. Hopefully, you can try stuff in your budget as well as far beyond. This helps calibrate you to how good things can get - and how nothing is quite perfect. In the end, you might buy a mid-range product while renting "grunt" for specific projects.

What are you likely to find there? Sachtler. What are you unlikely to find? Manfrotto. ;)

Of course, their models might no longer be available as new, so you're unlikely to do true head-to-head (pun!) comparisons. And you never know. They might be willing to part with an old workhorse for the right offer. :)

All right, thank you all for weighing in with your time and advice, ranging from clever modifications and work-arounds to suggested models and how I might go about testing them.

I think that my main problem last week was a "perfect storm" of challenging conditions that would tax any tripod. However, as my work is moving more towards critical imagery and away from "good-enoughs-ville," I will be trying out some new options.

Next week my first Sachtler test subject should arrive--the DV12 on 5390 sticks. It costs more than I paid for my camera. We will see if it solves the shake!

It costs more than I paid for my camera.


And so it should.

It'll outlast it by 20 years minimum unless they bring in electronic heads and 64K imaging systems, which, of course, they will, eventually.

I shall be looking forward to your impressions of the tester with great interest, it sounds like a great system (and I would have suggested it if I was going to suggest anything, which I wasn't).

Keep us all posted, this is better than going to the movies.

Have you cut Vinten in on this?


CS

Buy a second hand decent head on ebay - there are some bargains if you look hard, and age is meaningless on well looked after ones. Vinten, Satchler and Miller kits comes up quite often, an being frank, it's crazy to put expensive kit on a head that is likely to suddenly shoot up, or down. Even worse the cheap heads wobble when you touch the pan handle, wobble when you let go, and once you move up or down more than 20 or 30 degrees with a heavy load, you have to hold the camera's weight. A second hand Vinten 3, 5 or 8 can be quite reasonable - same with the other two decent brands. A proper head improves your camera work so much that you will never be able to go back to a poor one again. I had a couple of those Manfrottos when I started and never realised they were so poor until I went better. Umpteen thousands of pounds worth of equipment on a few hundred pounds worth of support is very poor balance of money.

Gone awfully quiet here, no feedback?


CS

Thanks for checking in, Chris. I didn't meant to leave you hanging.

I spoke to a rep from Sachtler on the phone and ordered a DV12 head and a set of truly monstrous sticks: the CF100 ENG-HD, "HD" signifying that these are the "heavy duty" version. The HD is not that much more expensive, percentage-wise, than the lightweight version, and since it is carbon-fiber, it's light enough.

I actually plan to post the results and some pictures of my comparative test, in case anyone is interested in the fairly obvious question: are more expensive tripods better? I just haven't finished yet.

Upon preliminary review, the answer is a qualified yes. Why "qualified," you ask?

Well, it should come as no surprise that the real secret to cinema mastery is technique, not technology. And this seems to apply not only to cameras, but also to tripods. Shooting at 300mm on a super35 sensor on this setup, as beefy as it is, isn't an automatic pass to perfectly smooth shots. I still have to balance the rig carefully if I don't want the head to "ease back" slightly when locking off a tilt, for example. And the wind can still catch my 7" monitor and cause problems.

But the good news is that the issue I was having with my HEARTBEAT ruining my shots, just by holding the pan handle, is completely resolved by the DV12. I don't know why, perhaps the more robust fluid drag dampens the vibrations... but it works.

And the sticks are fantastic. I didn't even notice until I started to use them that previously, with my Manfrotto 535, I actually had to hold onto the tripod when executing a high-drag pan to keep it from shifting around and losing its footing. The grippy feet (sold separately) and the mid-level spreader on the CF100 mean that I don't even have to think about the tripod when I'm panning anymore.

Double-extension in all three stages, really meaty locking levers, and scary-looking double stainless-steel spikes on the feet all add up to a setup that is not only very solid, but also looks like military tech from some video-game.

So, for a mere $6,000, my problems have been solved. This number could no doubt be brought lower by buying a used head/aluminum sticks, but it's really hard for me to justify that kind of expenditure on top of the unknown buyer/out of warranty risk. Heads do need to be cared for and maintained. I still have a little time to consider before my window to return it runs out, but I think the tripod is here to stay.

Finn...welcome to the 'club'! : )

It's hard to beat good old 'mass' for stability. Ideally, we'd all like a steel beam sunken to bedrock, but that's impractical unless you an Astronomer. I have amateur Astronomer friends who have done just that. : )

I also have the Sachtler CF100 ENG-HD and the lightweight CF 75, I believe my 'tripod issues' are resolved. They're both a good combination with my Sachtler FSB 8 fluid head. Albeit, the little FSB 8 looks ridiculous on the CF 100, it's very stable.

I hope to purchase an O'Conner 1030D this year. Maybe it will be the conclusion of a journey started 4-years ago for the right 'Tripod System'.

CS - You're the 'Bomb'!

Enjoy your purchase in good health.

J.

Pretty close:

the real secret to cinema mastery is technique, not technology

I think I'd prefer to say something like "match the best technology with the best technique and it all becomes effortless".

That's why nobody's air force is tooling up with Sopwith Camels, even ours (do we have one? Thought it had gone the way of the Swiss Navy and the Dutch mountaineering team).

As to your remaining foibles, that "easing back" at the end of a tilt MAY be you finding the limitations of stepped counterbalance.

It would be worth your while to try a Vinten head to see if that solves the problem, though that may possibly give rise to another problem if the short, lobed clamp knob of the Vinten won't play nice with the Sachtler tripod receiver.

The other issue you mention, with wind catching the monitor and causing "problems" (a slight, but noticeable, side to side rocking of the entire camera, perhaps?) just goes to highlight the "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" nature of the ongoing farce that is the support/ camera interface.

I refer, of course, to the fact that the $6,000 support system is connected to your $XX,000 camera rig by one poxy 10 cent 1/4" X 20 70% screw, mounted dead centre of the cameras front/ rear axis, and nothing else.

Factor in compressible rubber buffer pads on both camera base and QR plate, apply a modulated lateral force up top of the camera and away it goes, rocking around the clock.

(Interestingly enough, the very rigidity of the tripod makes this worse, a less rigid one will actually "sway" under load [not so noticeable], your CF 100 most definitely won't, hence why the rocking [very noticeable indeed]).

Roll on a decent 4 point fixing system. Ha!

Thanks for the update Finn, looking forward to the finished product.


CS

OK, so I'm not done with the moving test between Manfrotto and Sachtler yet. I tried (see picture), but we are in the middle of a blizzard and I thought it would make for an interesting test but instead it just coated my lens with flying ice and I couldn't even see the monitor to pull focus.

So, in the meantime, here is a cross-post to a different evaluation that I made between the performance of the Sachtler DV-12 and the Vinten Vision 8, similarly priced and rated heads that I was trying to decide between: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/522200-sachtler-vs-vinten.html#post1836674

http://i.imgur.com/33YjzZH.jpg

OK, this one is a no-brainer for many, but I wanted to see what the real difference was. So here is a short side-by-side test that I did of a few repeated pans using the Manfrotto 516 and the Sachtler DV-12:

Mafrotto 516 vs. Sachtler DV-12 - YouTube

With the 300mm lens you can clearly see what I was talking about where my heartbeat transmits through the pan-handle and ruins the shot!

In the end, I wish that the DV-12 had just a few more steps of aggressive drag to damped my pans, especially with that super long lens. I wish that I could get that without forking over another 25% for the Video 15. But such is life.