I have pretty specific needs. The only video I am doing is soccer matches. Typically I video from 20' to 30' behind a goal using a Hi-Pod set at 20' to 30' depending on wind conditions. I use a Canon XA-20 and the internal microphones are not bad, but I know the audio could be better. I have done quite a bit of research and know a parabolic might be the best way to go, but I do not have a second person nor will I be getting one. Also at this point in time they are outside of my budget. Also time is a huge factor, especially during a tournament if I have to move from field to field. So I don't have time for an elaborate setup. If I need to provide more information I can.

My question is do I just stick with the camera internal microphones or is there a better solution? Preferably on camera, but I am open to suggestions.

A radio mike at ground level may be the best solution, although you would need someone near it to avoid it going AWOL.

What type of microphone would you suggest at ground level?

The obvious one would be a shotgun, although this may be too directional to leave in a fixed position. Maybe an omi-directional one would be better suited, with a windshield fitted.

So you think an omni mounted on a tripod with a windscreen would work? Would you set it up behind the goal just in front of the camera?

That's what I would use, so yes I think it should work, try it.

We tend to use sennheiser 416 and 816 mics on soccer/football matches in the UK although a soundfield mic is also used on 5.1 mixes!

If you're delivering in stereo, you would benefit from recording in stereo. I would go with two (matched) cardiod microphones mounted on a stand near the camera position. The audio queues of whistles, shouts, and cheers help anchor the visuals in 2D space. Think of a good movie, when a helicopter comes in from screen left, so does the audio. If you were to close your eyes, you can still paint a picture of the action in your minds eye.

Windscreens (foam AND fur) are a must. The last thing you want to deal with is rumble and wind distortion. There are mic holders that will allow you to place the heads in an XY configuration.
Stereo Microphone Techniques (http://www.ccisolutions.com/StoreFront/category/stereo-microphone-techniques)

You can also employ a Mid-Side recorder like the Zoom H2n, which allows you to adjust the stereo 'width'. But you'll have the added step of syncing the audio in post.

Greenlee Brittenum...I don't mean to be dense, but what are your expectations? Do you expect to get individual player's voices?

Please tell us a little more about what results you would like to get. If, 'Nat sounds' is your goal a good omni set a high on a tall stand (10-ft or higher) would be my recommendation.

Although, not ideal, even an auxiliary camera mount that gets a shotgun MIC away from the axis of camera might be an alternative.

Regards,

J.

The other thought is that viewers may not want to hear some of the language that footballers are shouting to each other.

What do you want to hear - the big sound of the crowd, or the thumps and bumps of the players, with their grunting and groaning? I used to do quite a bit of football, but haven't for a couple of years now, and I'd record ambient audio to the camera mic, and have a couple of radio miked shotguns on short stands facing across the pitch. One mic to one camera, one to the other, and blend them in the edit.

All great input which I expected from this forum. My expectations are to improve sound quality over the internal microphones. I would like hear to be able to hear the thump of the kick. These are high school games so not huge crowds. Yes, there may be colorful language between players. But I am looking for more the sounds of the game. To me when you watch a soccer video and don't at least hear the sound of the foot hitting the ball, it is like watching a Bond movie without the explosions. I am NOT a sound guy, all I can go by is what I have read and the wonderful input you have given me.

What would you guys that have shot soccer or football recommend in a cardiod or an omni microphone? I thought shotguns didn't perform well at distance? So if I set them up at one end or even one side, play could be 50 to 100 meters away. Also if I am already shooting from a Hi-Pod would that be too high to put an Omni on my camera's hot shoe or in the microphone mount on the XA-20? I agree some left to right or right to left movement in sound would be great, i just wasn't sure that was possible with some simple setup.

Based on the stereo suggestion would something like the Audio-Technica AT8022 work? Or would it better to have two separate microphones? Would you mount the Audio-Technica AT8022 on the camera or on another stand closer to the ground? On camera would be fast when I am having to go from one field to another. Or could you use two Shure SM58s?

"would something like the Audio-Technica AT8022 work? Or would it better to have two separate microphones? "
-- If you looking for ambient stereo, a single-point stereo mic would be faster to set up and more foolproof. If you want the option of another mic to mix in when needed, two mono mics aimed accordingly.

"Or could you use two Shure SM58s"
-- SM58s are primarily designed for close mic'd vocals and such, their sensitivity/output is low for that type of work.

What would be a good mono microphone to use for that purpose? It is all new to me, so model numbers help.

A shotgun mic is normally used for outdoors. I just worked on a film with a soccer game scene and used a long shotgun (which otherwise rarely gets used) and picked up the sounds on the field decent. The key actors also had wireless body mics. (not recommended for real games)
There are many long and short shotgun mics available from $50 to $5,000. Wind protection is a must have for outdoor work and should be factored into your budget. BTW, a foam windscreen is really only enough for a slight breeze.

Hi , I have little experience of video recording football matches ( although I have done still photography of them a few times ) , but if you are shooting from behind a goal I'd thought you would want something with at least some directionality to reduce crowd noise from behind you at least somewhat .

I would imagine your biggest enemy will be wind noise , so a good windshield for whatever mic you use will probably be essential . If the mic was mounted on a camera which is going to be panning and zooming a lot , I'd imagine handling noise would be another potential problem - so I'd suggest getting the mic off the camera and onto a separate mic stand , which could just be a couple of feet to the side and still plugged in to the camera by a short cable .

I'd suggest at least a cardioid mic to direct pickup more onto the field than off it . Someone mentioned radio mics - if you were able to use one positioned at the far end of the field to pick up sound when the play was at that end , you could perhaps combine that with a wired mic beside your camera to pick up sound when the play was at your end ? Shotgun or rifle mics are much more directional ( or more precisely better at rejecting unwanted sound from other directions , allowing you to use more gain ) but the downside is they are more prone to picking up wind noise due to larger exposed surfaces , and I think this would work more against you for what you are trying to do . EDIT - I see that Rick beat me to it while I was typing :) The other thing with ( long ) shotgun mics is they are so directional they really need someone operating them rather than just being left on a stand .

From a sound perspective , I might be inclined to film from one of the sidelines about halfway down the pitch - this would at least even out your chances of pickup whichever end play was taking place at . You could either use a pair of wired cardioid mics on a low stand ( with stereo bar ) in front of your camera pointing slightly towards each end of the field , or if you could run to a couple of radiomics , place them maybe 1/3 of the way along the side of the pitch ( running wired mics out would probably be frowned on due to trip hazards ) . The downside of filming from the side is that you'd be doing a lot of panning to and fro and it could potentially look messy , unless you have a good fluid head tripod and are proficient in its use .

No chance of finding a like minded partner with a second camera ? Then you could film from both ends and cut your footage together ? Or maybe set up a second unmanned camera locked off at the far end then you would have both sound and pictures from there ?

Oddly enough , although I've never thought of filming football , despite living just outside Glasgow , I recently sold my two older standard definition cameras ( JVC GY-DV500's ) to someone who was intending to use them for just that .

Finally , just a wild idea ! Someone mentioned something about parabolic mics - I haven't tried this , but I wonder if putting a mic in place of the LNB at the focus point of an old satellite dish ( which is a parabolic reflector ) would work ? Perhaps a crazy idea , but it might just work ??

Someone typically videos from the sidelines that is why I get a different view from the goal. Most of the fields/stadiums do not have bleachers behind the goals.

Are the furry covers good enough for wind protection?

So would a shotgun like the Rode NTG-2 work? I thought there were issues using a shotgun to pickup sounds at distance or am I misinterpreting what I have read?

Here is a clip I did at Man Utd with just the camera mic for sound FX: ManU-v-RealMadrid - YouTube

I use a stock panasonic AJ-MC700MC short shotgun with a rode WS/6 windshield.

Another clip here: Aj-MC700MC ENG mic FX - YouTube

Those sound great. The only issue being you can barely hear the impact of the foot on the ball, but I won't have 50,000 screaming fans. So you think the way to go is a short shotgun? What might be a good one for my application. Keep in mind I will probably just have 100 screaming fans.

I saw one of your posts somewhere that you liked the AT-875, but it was an entirely different application. For the most part I have to deal with more wind noise than fan noise.

I really appreciate all of the wonderful input. I would like to get a microphone ordered this week for an out of town tournament next week.

You can always add a few stock audio clips of footballs being kicked - extra work I know, but if the guy is kicking the ball at the far end of the field then you are not going to get that much of a live sound.

...

What would you guys that have shot soccer or football recommend in a cardiod or an omni microphone? I thought shotguns didn't perform well at distance? ....The optimum working distance of a cardioid is less than that of a shotgun and an omni is even less than the cardioid. If you want to hear the thump of a foot hitting the ball you need to suppress the sounds coming from other directions. If you want to hear the crowd, you need something that picks up

That makes sense, I think I would rather have the sounds on the field instead of the crowd noise which is very little. So does that mean a shotgun microphone? Would you mount it to the camera which is on the Hi-Pod 6 to 9 meters above the ground and aimed directly at the action? Which model would you recommend for narrow pickup. I guess I could also setup an omni on a stand near the ground. If I wan to pick up wider ambient sounds. What would you recommend for that application? I wish someone made a parabolic that would fit on a camera or be capable of mounting it near off a bracket. I suspect the physics of sound prohibit an 8 to 12 inch parabolic reflector from working. All the ones I see are more in the 2 to 3 foot range.

In general, the longer the shotgun, the better it will be at rejecting unwanted off-axis sounds.

I say "in general" because there are different families of shotguns (i.e. different acoustical and/or electronic means of producing the directional pattern) and the different principles result in differing off-axis rejection for the different designs.

Also, I suggest you just listen, using your own ears, to the sound of the ball being kicked. It will sound a lot different at a distance of 100 feet than it sounds at a distance of ten feet. That's physics. No microphone can magically eliminate that difference. One mic might give you the "100 feet away" sound with a lot of background sounds; another mic might give you the "100 feet away" sound with much less background sound; but no mic will give you the "ten feet away" sound if the mic is 100 feet from the ball.

You're right about parabolic reflectors. Small ones, on the order of a foot or two, are used by nature recordists to capture the sound of distant bird calls. But those are all very high frequencies compared to what you want. I would have to dig in some old reference books for an actual number, but to get a good low-frequency "thump" I'm pretty sure you'd need one that's more than three feet in diameter. Even if you had such a beast, you'd need a separate operator to keep it aimed at the action, while you were busy aiming the camera.

So Greg, with me videoing from behind a goal with potential distances from 10 to 100 meters what model would you recommend? Can you get something under $500 or do I need to move up to under $1000. Since this is more hobby than professional I don't want to go crazy.

You can always add a few stock audio clips of footballs being kicked - extra work I know, but if the guy is kicking the ball at the far end of the field then you are not going to get that much of a live sound.

Yes , after reading the previous post I was going to suggest that he goes along to a practice session where he can get out onto the pitch and record a few kicks at close range .

These sounds can then be added in post .

I am trying to keep it as simple as possible. Trying to time sound to kicks could be time consuming. :-) But it is a great idea.

So Greg, with me videoing from behind a goal with potential distances from 10 to 100 meters what model would you recommend? Can you get something under $500 or do I need to move up to under $1000. Since this is more hobby than professional I don't want to go crazy.

First, please re-read my previous post, especially the third paragraph. You just cannot get a good "thump" of a ball kick from 100 meters away.

At one time E-V made an interference-tube dynamic mic, the model 643, which I often saw used in the stadium pressbox, aimed at the field. The sound wasn't great, but it was the best that could be done in the '60s.
A Seven-Foot-Long Microphone | Preservation Sound (http://www.preservationsound.com/?p=4051)
http://javierzumer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/electro_voice_model_6431.jpeg

It was an outgrowth of the RCA MI-10006A
http://www.hollywoodsound.com/pic-lib/RCA%20MI-10006%20Vari-directional%20condenser%20microphone%20with%20Ultradirectional%20shotgun%20attachment.jpg
I actually built a mock-up of this as a high school science project. (Plans were published in one of the electronics hobby magazines). It had reasonably good coverage of the neighbors back yard.

IMHO, to do what you want to do today, namely to capture a realistic "thump" of a kicked ball at a distance of 100 meters, you need a microphone that hasn't yet been invented, plus direct intervention of the Pope. Perhaps someone else can suggest a compromise solution.

Anybody have any experience with this microphone:

Audio-Technica BP4029 (AT835ST) Stereo Shotgun Microphone

Would it work for shooting soccer matches or is there still better options?

Greg, I appreciate your frankness. That is what I am looking for the best compromise. I realize from all of your suggestions that to get optimum sound I need multiple microphones aimed at the pitch from a number of different positions. And maybe somewhere down the road I start adding wireless equipment and additional microphones. But for now just looking for the best performance from one or two microphones that I can get that is an improvement over the internal microphones of my Canon XA-20. As far as divine intervention, I certainly can use all the help I can get. :-)

The bottom line is, you are not going to get fantastic sound from a mike on top of your camcorder, you need to invest in a lot of gear, but from what you are posting I am not so sure it is worth spending a lot of money on. I am sure the soccer teams will be more than pleased to see the videos and will appreciate that you can't cover every inch of the pitch.

This could help.

Shotgun v camera mic on Vimeo

Norwich City's ground in Norwich - but a private match. I picked these two shots from the game. Shotgun placement is on the touch line to the left of the camera position - visible in the clip. This mic is the left channel, and the right channel contains camera audio from the stock microphone - very similar to the one Gary used. Camera position is the back of the stand, near the commentators position - so you can hear the roof! In the second shot, you can hear the goalkeeper bouncing the ball on the camera mic, but not the shotgun, which faces across the left side of the pitch. This is why I try to have one left, one right and camera audio in the middle - all bases covered.

With no audience, you can hear what these mic positions give you.

Pure luck I had this particular match - It's from 2011 when I sponsored the team strip (the red/black one) Nice to do, but generated no business I'm aware of.

What shotguns did you use and what did you mount them on? Were they in blimps or was that just one of furry mic covers?

Does anyone have any experience with these microphones and which do you think would be better for my application?

Audio-Technica

Based on models originally developed for use in the broadcast of the Sydney Games in 2000, the BP4027 (14.96" long) and BP4029 (9.29" long) Stereo Shotgun models are engineered for high-end broadcast and production use. Both microphones feature independent line-cardioid and figure-of-eight elements configured in an MS (Mid-Side) arrangement with switch-selectable internal matrixing. These innovative microphones allow sound recordists the choice of selecting a left-right stereo output (wide or narrow) via the microphone’s internal matrixing system or choosing discrete Mid-Side signals for later manipulation, a flexibility not available from any other manufacturer.

A switchable low frequency roll-off filter helps minimize the pickup of unwanted low frequency noise. These phantom-powered models feature a rugged lightweight design and sleek black color scheme, perfect for on-camera use.

The Audio Technica shotgun mics have a higher noise floor the Sennheiser MKH 60 / 70 or MKH 416 / 816.
Stereo shotgun mics / stereo mics are useless around the soccer field..... Mono mics are much better as the stereo perspective is taken from the wide shot camera. Stereo mics are good for crowds but not on the field of play.
With the Olympics just think about the total quantity of mics that need to be purchased, if a lower cost / lower performance mic is suitable then why not use it. EVERY production has budgets.

Some of the Audio Technica stereo shotgun mics are no longer made....

The AT875R would be a good choice for a short camera mounted shotgun as it is nice and focussed but not too long to get in shot.

I have the panasonic mic on my camera as a generic sound fx mic but would use more AT875R mics if I was doing a more complicated match coverage but with the full outside broadcasts on Premier League it is stock 416 and 816 all the way!

The AT mics as used on the olympics are OK and as said we use hundreds of them so cost comes into it as well.

So would that be a good start for me with one AT875r mounted on the camera up on the Hi-Pod? Or would it better to have a couple of them mounted on mic stands on either side of me aimed towards the field, if it is the latter what height would you mount them at? Or would you cross them in an X/Y pattern?

I have a AT4071 long shotgun which has a very high output. (89.1 mV) It was a 'replacement' for a rarely used Sennheiser 816 which was heavier and longer . The AT4071 rarely sees the light of day but is nice to have when needed.

Would that be the better way to go and use a short shotgun and long shotgun? Would I need to mix them down to one channel? Would L and R sound weird if didn't?

If I was doing a single camera and needed stereo I would use three of my AT875R mics, one on the camera panned centre and two rigged either side of the camera position and panned left and right.

For pro coverage they have numerous mics and mix them depending on the camera shots, they even have an i-pad app for the calrec digital mixing consoles to assist with this: http://community.calrec.com/soccer-sidekick/

It all depends what you want to get out of it and you need to experiment to get the best coverage but generally the more mics you have out the more coverage of the huge pitch area you can get but you will need someone to look after all of that so a mono approach or a tri mic stereo set-up may get you better results.

Using three mics is almost like a decca tree and the two stereo panned ones will get you general effects but the centre mono one will get you closer effects that are more appertaining to the picture framing.

I would also have the gain of the centre mono mic slightly higher than the stereo two or putting a longer shotgun on the camera would do a similar job with the two shorter shotguns for generic stereo coverage.

I think it is unrealistic to expect to hear the kick with ANY kind of microphone from the sidelines (or end zones). What you hear in pro broadcast is almost certainly "sweetened" (i.e. somebody in a truck pushing the "Kick Sound" sound-effects button when they see a kick). Audio is not magic. High-budget productions use all sorts of behind-the-scenes "magic" to create the illusion.

If you want the sound of the kick, maybe you could just thump the camera mount. (Only HALF joking.)

I can hear the kicks, albeit faint with my internal microphones, so I disagree that it is unrealistic to think those sounds can be picked up.

Gary the calrec program is impressive. If money was no object and I could buy 12 microphones and hire someone to operate the software.

What would you recommend in a long shotgun? Can you get one under $500?

Greenlee,

Sorry to toss cold water on this but you simply can't overcome physics.

Sound level pickup at any microphone follows the inverse square principal. Which says that sound level falls off at the SQUARE of the distance.

So that mic one foot distant from a kicked football that sounds "perfect?" move that mic 100 feet away and you have one THOUSANDTH the level of sound.

On top of that, you have a noisy sound field to work in. Even if you had a "perfect" microphone that (a thing that does not exist) - you would STILL have the issue of the crowd noise and the misc sounds of the players and the wind and everything else competing with the sound of the foot kicking the ball.

Want great sounding kicks? Record one cleanly - and MIX that sound into your recorded sounds. That's the ONLY way you'll get it. Period.

You simply cant beat physics and no camera mounted microphone will ever get you anything but a general sound profile that can easily be screwed up by somebody walking by closer to your mic than the players on the field whilst having an argument with their boy or girlfriend.

Just how this stuff works. Sorry.

So that mic one foot distant from a kicked football that sounds "perfect?" move that mic 100 feet away and you have one THOUSANDTH the level of sound.

Actually, one TEN thousandth the level of the close shot. (100 x 100 = 10,000)

That's 80 dB lower in level... not a trivial difference, not to mention the difference in timbre when you move the source 100 meters away from the mic.

100 metres is more than three times 100 feet .

and that is why we use 416 and 816 mics as they are about as good as it can get and as said you can not change the law of physics.

I sit in the prime press seats at most games and acoustically it is virtually impossible to hear most of the kicks so there is no mic that is going to amplify what is not already there.

We tend not to add effects in the OB truck as it just doesn't work besides the atmosphere of a sports event such as football tends to be the crowd and not the spot effects on the pitch.

Concurring with Bill and Greg, shotguns ARE NOT the acoustic equivalent of a telephoto lens. They DO NOT 'magnify' distant sounds and and they're no more sensitive to faint sounds than any other mic. What they do is REDUCE (but not eliminate) the pickup of extraneous sounds coming from directions other than where they're pointed.

I really appreciate the input, it is incredible. Keep in mind I am NOT videoing EPL games with 50,000 plus fans. I am videoing school games with possibly 50 fans maybe less. So I don't have the fan noise. I think with all of your help I am narrowing in on a solution I want to spend money on.

Is there a long shotgun under $500, that anyone would recommend? I have seen a few under $1000. I have seen some used AT4071s under $500.

I think Gary's solution is certainly doable. The one with the AT875r microphones, not the one with the calrec app. :-)

I would just stick to short shotguns as longer ones will not help and if anything will be not as useful on other jobs.

If I was doing a school soccer match I would do what I suggested with my three AT875r set-up with one either side of the camera position panned left and right and a centre panned one on the camera.

The ones either side of the camera could be quite a distance apart and rigged out of the way of any crowd or people so to get the max audio from the pitch.

A mixer may be required but with my four channel camera I could do it easily and even put a radio mic on the ref for good measure.

In my clip the mic you can see is actually an Audio Technica 815 - I've had it for years and it's a bit longer than the 416. I have two Sennheiser baskets and grips with furry covers, but for this session it was the 815 in the Senn basket but without the hairy cover. The 815 is too long for the basket intended for the 416, but it fits if you remove the XLR plug cover - so I have a thin cable that has the female insert only on one end and a normal plug on the other - just for this mic. Irrespective of the microphone type, having it as close to the pitch, and with it's rear to the nearest crowd does give more pitch, less crowd.

Is there a 4 to 2 field mixer under $1000 you would recommend? Or would recommend I get a six to two or eight to two, in case I want to add in the future? I have never dealt with phantom power, how far will it go on xlr? Since I only have two inputs I will need something.