Not sure where to place this as I couldn't find a dedicated category so will put it here meanwhile.

I only just got the rx10 and took it with me on a weddingshoot yesterday together with my panasonic gh3/g6 and my sony cx730's which is now my standard kit whenever I cover a wedding. I've seen some people saying the rx10 would be a good holiday cam but I intent to make money from it shooting weddings. I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread to share user experiences shooting weddings with this camera so we could learn from eachother.

I sold my nex-ea50 for this rx10 because after a year of use I found out the ea50 was way too big for me to drag around a wedding all day and I wanted something small, portable and powerful, I also want to point out that some issues I will mention could very well be a user error and if that would be cleared up here, great, if not, we"ll know it's a camera limitation and maybe we can find work-arounds for it, who knowns.

So anyone that like to share their experience with the camera, if you have got great tips, cinematic presets that will make it look like a Red or Aexa camera (:D) or whatever that can make the user experience better with this camera, pls share! My experience below is based on shooting solo at weddings.

So let's start with functionality, something that sets this camera apart from all others in it's price range, I absolutely loooove having so much power at my fingertips, I still need to get used to button positions and which button I assigned what to but I can easily see switching between almost any important function on the fly, I assigned some functions which are important to me to the buttons on camera, there is a lot you can assign to these buttons but I will comment to the ones I used.

When I had to make a quick adjustment from a inside to outside location while keeping teh shutter at a fixed value of 1/100 (I shot in 50p) I just turned the menu wheel on the back with my thumb and the iso values change instantly, from high to low or otherwise, that was like breath of fresh air coming from the ea50 which only allowed 3 assignable iso values to a switch.
Going from auto to manual focus mode, just press a button, want to check focus? press another button to magnify the screen, a target area pops up which allows you to select which part to magnify and press again and it magnifies, I just press twice to get a quick focus check.

Too light outside? Press another button that pops up the nd option, select it to activate, press the button again and you"ll get much more playroom to keep you shutter at a fixed value, is it enough for very bright sunny day's? no, but adding a fixed polarize filter to your lens should get you though most situations, no more +1000th shutter situations like with my cx730.
This camera is a Swiss knife when it comes to having every possible functionality at the tip of your fingers, button layout is very good, no accidental button presses happened like I have with my panasonic g6 and everything is accessible while you are shooting, I can imagine after a longer time of use changing settings on the fly can be done without even looking away from the camera.

The viewfinder/lcd screen

Some people have complained that the viewfinder has no touch controll, I actually prefer that, this means I can add a loupe and access all my functions without taking the loupe off, just by using the several assigned buttons you can change whatever you want without your eye leaving the screen.

I only used the small viewfinder which is very good, it's a sharp high res screen making focusing easy, only outside the lack of some kind of loupe that would block out incoming sun is a issue, maybe a add-on loupe exists?
Through that small viewfinder I got a lot less camera info then on the camera lcd screen, just the essentials which I think was ok but I missed one important info and not sure if it is a setting, I could not see if I was in manual or autofocus, info that is displayed on the lcd screen, my workaround was to set the peaking to mid so if I would be in manual focus I could see the peaking lines, not ideal but it worked.

The zoom

I can be short about this one, I absolutely hate it, again it might be a setting that I missed but in standby the zoomspeed I could live with but in record mode it slows down to a crawling speed of a snail, no matter if you use the lever on top or operate the zoom manually on the lens. If it was designed that way I don't know what Sony was thinking. I only use the zoom to quickly re-frame and cut the zoom part out in post, with this camera this becomes impossible, in any run and gun situation if I want to change my frame, before I am where I want to be the moment is gone. That was what I liked so much about the stock lens from the ea50, I operated that zoom manually all the time and it was a joy to use. If you are into slow creeping zooms this is ok eventhough the zoom "janks" a bit at the start of the zoom, just like the stocklens on the ea50 did, I find the zoom operation during record mode totally useless and a hugh frustration and I am being kind.

The image quality

We have seen by now this camera resolves detail and plenty of it, moire and aliasing are almost no issue at all, if you really look you"ll find it but you don't ntice it like with teh nex-ea50 and especially with canon dslr's below the 5dIII.
My main concern that I had seen with other user videos was the blown highlights which the camera didn't seem to be able to handle, thing is that eventhough I do see that in some of my shots I took yesterday some small yuv curve adjustment solves that, I did lower the contrast in the standard picture profile I used since the blacks are not that crushed in that way leaving me the option to do that in post if needed or just leave it if I want more detail in the shadow area's, also in the venue it helped giving the impression the camera had more dynamic range.

My impression is that exposure setting is a key element, I have my zebra's set at 100% so I know whatever has stripes has no detail anymore and I decide on teh spot if that is ok or not, for a wedding dress in the sun expose to the dress so no stripes appear, I haven't had any glaring sun like you have mid summer but the sun did shine yesterday and I managed to get detail throughout the image exposing to the brides dress, in the viewfinder it looked like some parts where underexposed to much but in post and on my big screen it didn't, I have a spark card connected to a screen with edius 7. Not sure what I am doing differently then other users but I don't have that "limited DR much have been complaining about.
Also the reports about muddy image and macroblocking, looking at the footage from yesterday, I don't see that so for me it's no issue. I might see it if I freeze frame and zoom in 400% but that is not how I and my clients look at a film.

Cinema vs video

Does the image look "cinematic"? Maybe someone can provide a magic image preset/yuv adjustment in post to give it that look but for me it's close to teh videolook from my sony cx730, you can get some nice bokeh if you shoot something up close or when you zoom in but I got a much more pleasing image "dslr" kind of look with a nicer bokeh from my nex-ea50 with the stocklens.

Stabilization

Is very good, even handheld at full tele, not the same level as my magic eye ball cx730 but very usable.

Batterylife

Not good, when I shot the test in Bruges (see the link below with my videos) I got 40 minutes of footage from one battery, I got a second one which is sufficient for my use but it certainly is not up to Sony standards. Also charging the battery trough the camera is painfully slow, I"m betting Sony did something to slow the charging process down so you would buy their optional batterycharger.

Sound.

Surprisingly good, actually really good at capturing clear ambient sound which doesn't sound like crap like on the internal mike of my gh3, it's not as good as the ea50 but I can see it being used without a external mike.

Rx10 vs cx730

Would I buy another rx10 if one of my cx730's would die? No, I"d buy a similar camera, these cx730's are now exclusively used for the ceremony only. I also always use 2 and these little wonders allow me to get well exposed, sharp, colorful and continuous recording for hours on one battery, in that case I don't care about shallow dof or a dslr look. They give me a ease of mind knowing I can deliver a professional looking product when I use tripods and add clear sound, they are so simple to use yet deliver excellent results. They are also excellent "auto" performers which I sometimes need as a solo shooter where only the exposure get's handled manually most of the time, to cover ceremonies and danceperformances these little gems have proven their value over and over, they are an extremely valuable tool in the box to me.

Where do I find the rx10 better then my cx730's? It has a higher resolution image, much more manual control, the exposure doesn't ramp when you zoom in, better sound and a nd filter. Often I do need more controll and this is where rx10 offers much more.

Rx10 vs gh3/g6

Can the rx10 replace my gh3/g6? No way, the panny's are for all my arsty fartsy work, I can do magic with these camera, after I sold my nex-ea50 with lenses I blew all that money on quality m4/3 glass in different ranges from fisheye to a fast tele, the image those camera output look amazing, only for real run and gun they are much more limited then the rx10, most important features the rx10 has over the gh3 is much better build in sound, a stabilized wide to decent tele constant f2.8 with clickless aperture ring lens, build in nd, better button layout/functionality so I consider the rx10 a better run and gun camera.

Where do I place this camera? Do I really need it?

With the limited experience I have I'd say inbetween my cx730 and my gh3/g6, it fills that gap very good, do I need so many camera's? I would like to have just 2 camera's but what I have now gives me more options, I have plenty backup if any camera(s) would fail, they are all very small camera's, fit all in one backpack and give me the option to use them depending on what I need to shoot. At the venue the panny g6 stay on the steadicam all the time (that used to be my gh3 but 2 days ago I made a adjustment so I could fit my very light g6 onto the blackbird and have more control over my steadicam movements) and then I use my gh3 for tripod shots, when a speech is given I use the gh3 for the speecher and the rx10 for reactions on a tripod and if people move from their spot to give presents for example I just pick up my g6/steadicam.
The sony cx730 are no brainers for ceremony work, they allow me to focus on content while they do their thing without stopping. So thinking about it in this way I'd say yes, I need all these little camera's to cover weddings.

So that's about it for now, might come up with some more info, if someone else wants to share pls! :)

Noa - thanks for the great, and very detailed, comparison of a standard camcorder, the G6/GH3 and the RX10. This will very very helpful for people who are trying to decide between these cameras.

I plan to shoot a comparison between a standard camcorder, the GH3, the RX10 and the BMPCC in a few weeks - I only hope to be able to provide as much value to the community as you have.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Great write up.

I think I mentioned it before, I just can't believe you manage so many cameras on your own at a wedding shoot! Good for you.

Noa, great idea to start this thread. I was thinking we need a place where user experience might accumulate and this is it. Good one, and thanks.

You commented that some think this cam would be a good holiday cam and I believe this is true. In as much as I am forever on holiday these days after two days of shooting I have not changed my mind. So while your (profitable) shooting involves a wide range of light conditions mine generally does not as most of the time I’m shooting in outdoor well lit environments.

And thus far I am delighted with the photographs. By and large I find my point and shoot photographs more pleasing then I routinely get using my NEX 5n.

Even though it is early days yet and the options are a tad overwhelming one thing I can say right off the bat is that is that when it comes to the fun factor this cam takes the cake.

Now, having said that I must report what might be described as a fly in the ointment perhaps. Because I live in a PAL country I set the camera to PAL 50p. I noted what appeared to be movement aberrations that reminded me of bad 24p motion. I recalled seeing this in footage shot with a PAL HX200v so I went to a location that I had used previously to test that camera – cars going along a road at about 50 k and about 300 m away at right angles to the camera. Sure enough the 50p footage, regardless of shutter speed (I tested at 100 and 400) exhibited the same jerkiness one might expect from say 12 to 14 frames per second. Because the RX10 is NTSC/PAL selectable the easy answer for me was to switch to NTSC 60p and the footage is very smooth as one would expect.

However, if I didn’t have that option the camera would be going back to Sony.

Has anyone else noticed this 50p movement aberration?

Thanks for the "impressions" Noa - pretty much validates exactly where I see the RX10 "fitting" - I don't see it entirely replacing the Alpha series cams A77/65, they have their place, and are pretty decent for video in a pinch, albeit bigger and heavier than what I would "like" to haul around! I also see a place for a CX/PJ or two if you're shooting long form, set and forget, or if you want a handheld that thinks it's a steadycam (magic eyeball!). I'm evaluating what cams will stay and go right now, so your observations are very helpful as I wait for a RX10 to come my way... a couple cams I'm not sure abut selling, and they'd pay for the RX!


Hope that zoom thing will be rectified In firmware - seems to come up regularly... I'm sure they wanted to avoid "crash zooms" in video for "quality", but some of us have uses for that crazy stuff! They need a numeric setting for the two stages (I'm presuming there is a "fast" and "slow" depending on tactile input, like most Sonys?). Something like slow zoom\1-6 and fast zoom \6-11 (it has to go to 11!) so in theory you could set slow to be "1" and it's super slow, and fast to "11" so you could crash zoom or creep as desired, depending on finger pressure or aggressiveness with the ring. If the API were opened, that should be something even I could code!

The FW50 batteries have been gnawing in the back of my mind since I saw they were the power source... I was NOT impressed with them when they powered the A55, definitely seemed decidedly "wimpy" compared to FV's in camcorders (even the older FH were better), FM in Alphas, and even comparing to the "new" BX that powers the RX100's. Wasn't looking forward to collecting sufficient batteries, and your experience is a bit worrisome, although not entirely a surprise... maybe Sony needs a FW/Mk2 that's got more beef?!? A battery that can only do 40 minutes of video in a otherwise capable camera is a frustration! I've got similar short life batteries (N series) in TX100 cams I use for their compact size - can be hidden anywhere almost, have decent quality video, and you can stick several in your bag... but that's not something I want in a camera that might be a primary capture device!



And while I don't know exactly where you'll find it in the RX10 menu, there should be a couple settings (on the RX100M2 they are under the "gear/knobby doughnut" subsection) that govern the behavior of the "DISP button" - IIRC the Alphas have TWO menu selections, one for LCD and one for VF - if you select those, you should get a series of check boxes/display options to choose from, and I *think* one should be display EVERYTHING... hopefully including the focus function status you seek!

This is one of those tricky functions, as you of course can have different options as you cycle (consecutive pushes) the display button, depending on whether you are in VF or LCD mode. I've found it handy to be able to cycle between the graphic display, level, "off", and "everything", but you can find what works best for you, hope this will give you the info in the VF you're looking for!



Hopefully Chris can set up a dedicated subsection for this camera (and maybe the A7/A7r & RX100's) so we can compare button settings, and any quirks we run into along the way! I do think Sony is trying to "rock the boat" with their newer offerings, and since Sony is often the "redheaded stepchild" of the camera world, it would be nice to see these cameras given a comfy corner of their own! There are quite a few postings in various places on DVi already, so there ought to be enough to start a subforum in the Sony section... or the "photo for HD Video", or something that makes logical sense!

Once again these bloomin' "hybrid" cameras really muck with "definitions" - is it a photo cam, a video cam... what the heck is it!? These "new media" toys sort of defy all the "old school" categorizations! COOOOOL!

@John... I figure the RX10 will be doing a lot of "double duty" as a still camera for me as well, the RX100/M2 has been a treat to shoot (photo & video) with, love the look, can't wait to have the big glass on the front! The RX100 held up surprisingly well to my bigger Alphas - maybe not quite as good, but "good enough", and there's that compact size thing that means you have it with you when the "big camera" gets left home!

Glad you are finding shooting to be "fun" - that is how it should be, these RX's seem to somehow have that "baked in" to the design, but they don't show it on the SPEC SHEET... guess sometimes you can't quantify everything with engineering measurements!

You commented that some think this cam would be a good holiday cam and I believe this is true

What I actually meant to say was that this camera is perfectly capable to handle paid shoots, the feeling I got from some people was they thought it was an "ok" holiday cam while I think it's much more then that.

I just timed the zoom speed in standby and record mode, in standby it takes 3 seconds from wide to full tele, in record mode that's 12 seconds...

And while I don't know exactly where you'll find it in the RX10 menu, there should be a couple settings (on the RX100M2 they are under the "gear/knobby doughnut" subsection) that govern the behavior of the "DISP button" - IIRC the Alphas have TWO menu selections, one for LCD and one for VF - if you select those, you should get a series of check boxes/display options to choose from, and I *think* one should be display EVERYTHING... hopefully including the focus function status you seek!

This is one of those tricky functions, as you of course can have different options as you cycle (consecutive pushes) the display button, depending on whether you are in VF or LCD mode. I've found it handy to be able to cycle between the graphic display, level, "off", and "everything", but you can find what works best for you, hope this will give you the info in the VF you're looking for!


Found it! :) It was under the "custom settings", "page 2", "disp button" where you have the option to select "monitor" or "finder" and there you have 6 presets to decide what you want to show on the screen.

I plan to shoot a comparison between a standard camcorder, the GH3, the RX10 and the BMPCC in a few weeks - I only hope to be able to provide as much value to the community as you have.

Any contribution you make, no matter how small, is a value, I"m looking forward to the comparison you make!

I just can't believe you manage so many cameras on your own at a wedding shoot! Good for you.

It's just a matter of planning to know which camera's to use when, it's mostly just one a camera at a time and max 2 camera's at a time only in controlled environments, a third one could come into play if I"m absolutely sure the other 2 unmanned are doing what they are supposed to do.

The advantage of having more then one camera is that you don't have to switch lenses that often, during the bride prep I have 2 camera's hanging with a strap around my neck; my panasonic gh3 with a 25mm f1.4 for creative shots and the sony rx10 for anything unexpected that would happen where I would need to shoot very wide or more tele, same way a photog works actually as I can quickly switch from one to the other camera.

What I actually meant to say was that this camera is perfectly capable to handle paid shoots, the feeling I got from some people was they thought it was an "ok" holiday cam while I think it's much more then that.

I just timed the zoom speed in standby and record mode, in standby it takes 3 seconds from wide to full tele, in record mode that's 12 seconds...

I think generally the cam has a LOT of potential... it looks to be quite versatile, and if one knows how to use it, shouldn't be a problem to use it for paid work.

And all I can say about that zoom time is.... OUCH... that should be addressed with firmware - obviously it's variable, since it switches between modes!

The one other concern, which I noticed another user asking about, is does the beast overheat? I recall the A55 being prone to overheat... made it less than usable, but I've shot long clips with the RX100M2 and didn't notice any heating, hoping that holds true for the RX10!

i'd like to see more against the likes of the g30, x920, or cx760(basically the same as noa's cx730) especially in the already of low light.

those little camcorders have some advantages and even though they have smaller sensors, the pixel size should be roughly the same as the rx. it seems noa already has a lot of points for a cx730 or similar, and since this is in fact a fixed lens camera, should be pitted against them just as well.

i had up until recently discounted the little consumer camcorders, but seems they are right up there with advancing tech and i would venture to guess a big reason why many don't use them despite their ability, is that since they look like a bestbuy cam, you'll look like a tourist/unprofessional.

I"m planning to so some tests to determine what presets match best with my panasonics and sony handicams but that will have to wait to beginning next year so there will be some comparison videos made. About the reason why people are not that much into sony handicams, I think the formfactor has a lot to do with it, I wouldn't think of taking such a camera with me on a corporate shoot but have no issue whatsoever using them at a wedding, they are either on a tripod or on a mini shouldersupport and a loupe attached to the lcd screen which makes them much easier to use handheld and gives it a little bit more "pro" look. These handicams outperformed my nex-ea50 with the slow stocklens at a stageshoot during a businessevent, they where more lightsensitive and had less noise.

OUCH... that should be addressed with firmware - obviously it's variable, since it switches between modes!

Yeah "should be addressed", didn't help much with the ea50 though where easy adjustable iso was the main request and I would be surprised if they change it on this camera, Knowing Sony this was a limitation build in for a reason. Probably the rx20 4k or whatever will have a faster zoom so you will have another reason to buy yet another camera.

I still hope though it is a setting in camera that can be changed, pls someone tell me that is the case...

I have just viewed the footage I shot at a wedding 2 days ago on a big screen again and noticed that all handheld footage with the full zoom applied which seemed very stable at first is showing some very fine microvibrations, on my pcscreen it's not so much noticeable but on a big screen you do see it, anyone else have noticed this?

@ Noa -

Alpha still cameras do get firmware revisions... slowly, but does happen once in a while. You've already proven that the "setting" is variable, dependent on the state of the camera (rec/not rec), it's a matter of having access to it, and whether or not Sony can, or willm either open it to developers or change the user interface to allow access. Fingers, toes, and eyes crossed....



@Darrin -
The "top of the line, consumer" camcorders often have the most "bleeding edge" tech (due to the fast market cycle) - so they shouldn't be underestimated. That said, the "small sensor" camera, be it a P&S or a Handy cam is a RAPIDLY disappearing market... the whole V/DSLR "revolution" didn't help (but that market too is shrinking noticeably), and cell phones have taken over the vast majority of the "consumer" market for photo and video capture devices... people just aren't buying $1K+ video cams or virtually any P&S like they used to.

From experimentation with the RX100M2, it's possible to slow the shutter to 30 and come fairly close to the "lo lux" mode of a CX/PJ7xx series camera. With the non-ramping constant f/2.8, the advantage should go to the RX10 once you start to zoom, for obvious reasons.


Noa noted those advantages that the "Handycam" might still have - fully rotating/touchscreen can be "handy", the BOSS "magic eyeball" is still an amazing bit of tech, you can let one "free run" for hours, lightly supervised, and the captured images (video, as I remain unconvinced by stills from my video cameras!) will be quite acceptable.

I'm not prepared to get rid of every video camera, but am considering how and where the RX10 will be as "good or better" fit. Manual control, big plus... very usable stills, bigger plus... Clip length, battery life, potential overheat issues (still to be determined, probably not an issue), well, they "might" be obstacles, or may be "nothing" in practical use. I will say that most off my video of late has been from the RX100/RX100M2, and/or the HX300 (another underestimated little monster). The "video" cameras are languishing alongside the "big" Alpha SLT's...

If you ask "why", it's because the small light cameras are just plain easy to take along (see "cell phone" above!!). Since the results are excellent (far superior to "cell phone quality"), for casual and general "consumer type use", they make sense. And there's that "fun" factor...


For weddings/events, sometimes multi-cam is just a better way to capture the "action", and wrangling a flock of large cams without additional operators is not practical. But several small cams, carefully positioned, can give you a lot of coverage, and it's actually easy (one might even say easier!) once you've done it a couple times.

Noa - quick question on the microvibrations - were you completely handheld or were you bracing on something? I ran into something similar with the HX300 while trying to steady on a railing at full zoom - audio in the room was transferring through the railing, and introduced camera shake the IS couldn't handle!

I'm thinking the physics of that rather robust Zeiss lens may make it vulnerable to vibrations when fully extended, even "ambient" vibration from wind or acoustical coupling? Just a preliminary guess, based on things I've seen with the HX300 at full zoom... sometimes even a little wind can shake it up a bit. Seems like the IS isn't tuned for those particular sorts of instability...

I was completely handheld, no rig or anything, actually I see these tiny vibrations now also on wide shots :) I had the stabilisation set to standard, not the active setting as it then zooms in on the image, not sure what that does on the rx image but I know from experience that with my cx730 the image quality gets a hit in that way. It is barely noticeable but it's there, I really need to do some more testing to see what's going on.

I'm sure it's high-frequency vibration caused by the optical stabilization system. Most of the Sony Handycams and Cybershots that I've used in the past few years seem to be affected as well. The CX500E, CX350E (1/4" Sensor), CX700E, NX70P, HX9V all of them with the PJ760VE (similar to your CX730 I guess but without the projector) being the only exception. Since the entire optical block of the PJ760/CX730 series is suspended by some kind of gimbal or gyro mechanisms as opposed to an optical stabilization unit sitting somewhere between the front and rear elements in the case of the other, older Handycam models including the RX10, the gimbal models somehow don't exhibit that symptom.

However, once I chose the Active Mode, the one which we all know the cameras employ software stabilization in combination with the optical one, the jitters always disappeared. You are right the IQ takes a small hit when you choose the Active Mode but I see it as the better alternative to stabilizing the jittery images in the NLEs such as FCP, PP or some other plug-ins. In post it is more flexible with respect to the how and how much you want to stabilize them but you're going to lose some quality anyway. I've found the algorithm Sony builds into the Active Mode very effective in most cases and the loss in IQ a small price to pay for this.

Think you are right, never seen this kind of behavior with standard stabilization on my cx730 but that one uses the magic eyeball as additional stabilization, the rx10 resolves plenty of detail to take a small resolution hit and should still match with the panasonics gh3/g6 camera's, I"ll see if I can make some time available to do some test to see the difference between both stabilization modes. I also prefer doing the stabilization in camera instead of in post as it never looks very good and it sometimes warps the image.

if you're on the fence about an RX10, it's $937 at adorama for god knows how long. it says open box, but i just got it and it's retail, invoice even shows retail new SKU.


$937
Sony Cyber-Shot DSC-RX10 Digital Camera, Black - Open Box DSC-RX10/B OB (http://adorama.evyy.net/c/78693/111874/1036)

Won't see those kind of bargains in Europe anytime soon, when I got my sony nex-ea50 (got it the day it was available) I was lucky to find a store that sold it at a lower introductory price for a short while, one year later now the camera is still more expensive in all Belgian and Dutch stores then what I paid for it.

Also available from Adorama on eBay... same price, and you can get a little kickback from ebay! Yes, that will knock one off the fence...

US always gets the best discounts and offers.

As Noa says, the EA50 is still at it's original retail price or higher in the UK also.

The RX10 is also priced at around the £1000 region.

I've seen multitudes of discounts on the EA50 in the US already ...

Hey, can one of you guys check and see if this is NTSC, PAL switchable for me please. With that price at Adorama this is way cheaper than a shop purchase here in Aus for me.

Thanks

Yes it is.

Thanks Noa, great work. Cheers

Simon -

I believe (don't quote me on it YET...) that the US models are NTSC ONLY, and the "international" models are switchable 50/60... I know that has been an early question that hasn't been confirmed yet.

Perhaps Darrin has his in hand to confirm?

just scoured the menu, and no there's only 24 and 60, no 25/50 options

Can"t you order a EU model then? Mine does have the pal/ntsc option in the menu.

Noa, can you tell me the differences from RX10 to EA50 in the easy of use terms?

Thanks

They are basically 2 completely different camera's where the nex-ea50 wins hands down when it comes to versatility, you can add a wireless receiver, big videolight with battery without any special constructions and have a formfactor that is cut out for any type of work, the rx10 is the only hybrid dslr kind of camera out there that has all important features build in that even the nex-ea50 is missing, most important one is build in ND. The rx10 is easy to operate and has everything you would expect from a real videocamera with the biggest difference between the nex-ea50 that is has a fixed lens which can be limiting and the difference in size which can either be a advantage or disadvantage. The worst part for me is the much to slow zoom operation on the lens, even when in manual, the nex-ea50 stocklens is a joy to use, the rx10 zoomlens a big frustration, unless you only need slow creeping zooms. The rx10 has a sharper image and less moire and aliasing and a much better wide to tele lens in terms of low light. If it wasn't for the zoom speed issue this camera would be perfect for any run and gun work.

To confirm, US models are 60/24, no apparent switching to 50/25, but it looks like EU models (and perhaps some other international versions?) have different firmware.

And about that zoom... you were being kind at 12 sec end to end... I need to double check, but pretty sure it's even slower here! Not to mention it stays sluggish into Clear and digital zoom ranges. Since there is an obvious change from not recording to recording, there must have been a "design decision" in the firmware.

Perhaps if we raise enough of a stink, they can correct it with an update (Alpha division DOES do updates!). My solution would be a menu selection that allows us to set the speed to OUR liking. Should be easy to do if you had access to the Firmware! I snagged the more advanced remote that goes with the Sony tripod, when it comes in, I will see if it can access zoom speeds, it has a few more switches, so maybe it will grant "magic" access to things not otherwise accessible?


I'm primarily testing the photo functions right now, as a backup to an aging Alpha - so far, looks like it may well compare favorably. I could retire one more camera from the fleet if so... the RX10 looks to be the "Swiss army knife" of cameras, it may not "replace" every other capture device, but it can do the functions of many!


One thing to note, as I've seen it stated elsewhere incorrectly - you can turn off zoom entirely, enable just the clear zoom range (2x), or enable clear AND Digital zoom (4x!) - it will show in the zoom display readout as "C" and "D". Good to know it's there in a pinch if you can accept some image degradation. I shot a couple samples of things off in the far distance with the 4x, and the results weren't bad - again, in a pinch, you have a passable 800mm! I also noticed a very odd wavy flickering in the Live view at that long end of the digital zoom, in low light - doesn't affect the shot, but looks horrid, is very distracting, not sure what is causing it? Of course this would be ABSOLUTE worst case shooting conditions anyway!

Overall the camera is pretty beefy, feels a bit larger in the hand than it actually is, heavy for it's size like the RX100, really demands a "two hands on" grip, IMO. Menus will take quite a while to go through and sort out (even if you already know Sony's menu system), that's before trying to decide on custom button settings, this one will take a WHILE to get a complete handle on!!


So far, a few little head scratchers (mostly menu items that gray out when it seems like they should be active...), but probably need more time to work with the camera! Could probably go out and shoot with it right now and get acceptable results! So far my random samples have been sufficiently nice to get my attention.


One other nice thing, some knockoff batteries (meaning it SAYS Sony, but it's NOT) I've had laying around seem to work fine... they didn't work at all with some NEX's - gave "wrong battery" warning, and were a little short so they didn't connect reliably in A55 series cameras. Looks like they will suffice for additional power! The Sony external charger I have from A55 days is not exactly a "speed charger" either, I wonder whether the "new" QM1 would be any better... charging for a full day or longer trip could be tedious with what I'm seeing!

Overall first impressions are quite favorable, but much to explore and learn - definitely NOT a "novice" camera!

Great stuff Dave, I look forward to more of your thoughts as you become familiar with the complexities of this camera.

Regarding your final point about the novice while I do agree with your comment in as much as this camera has a lot more to offer than a ‘novice’ might be able to understand or interested in exploring there is another way of looking at this that I feel obliged to point out lest novices reading here might conclude this camera is not for them, which might not be at all true.

I have been playing around with the camera for a few days now evaluating some of the options, and there are many as you know, and the standard to which I compare my experimentation is the factory default which I return to frequently in order to reset my view. Therefore I am gaining a good understanding of how the camera performs outdoors in good light with the camera set up as it arrived; that is as a point and shoot device with the photographic mode set to Superior Auto and hitting either the photo or the movie button without touching the myriad of controls that are available. I passed the camera to a friend who knows nothing whatsoever about cameras, photography or movie making, and told him to point and press the appropriate button. Understand that this guy was not even to novice level yet he shot remarkably good photos and footage. Now his framing left something to be desired but the quality he delivered, or should I say the camera delivered in his hands, was remarkably good.

It could be argued that for novices who want a decent EVF and accurate point and shoot capabilities this is one heck of a camera. Just because all the stuff under the hood is there doesn’t mean you need to get in there and utilize it to produce excellent material under good outdoor lighting conditions..

Therefore in that context I can say the RX10 is the best point and shoot novice-friendly non-pocket-able camera I have ever used for both photography and movies.

But of course it is also much much more...

Agreed to the extent that you CAN just point and shoot, right out of the box, and photos and video look remarkably good!

Where the comment comes in is that if a novice decides to start pushing buttons and "fiddling" with the controls, they could QUICKLY find themselves WAY over their head!! Just dealt with that on an RX100 - guy pushed the wrong buttons with a slow memory stick, and thought the camera was malfunctioning - it was trying to write RAW+JPEG bursts to a slow card.... CHOKE, GAG, SPUTTER!! As long as they don't push the WRONG buttons, they'll get great results!

After a couple handheld video "runs" with an added bracket (LCD seems to conflict with the bracket or a tripod mount - if you don't pull it out a bit first, it will get "stuck" by the bracket/plate) to help keep level, the video cams just went up for "review", and the stills have me debating whether the Alphas should stay in the fleet... That whole "Swiss army knife" thing. I'm finding there's a fairly decent "pop" to the photos and footage thanks to the lens.

An RX10 and an RX100/RX100M2 would make a potent combo, and cover most of what every other camera I have or have owned would do. VERY few times when these two wouldn't "fill the bill" (OK... so long form, free run might hit that 30 minute mark...) - the 100 is small, so it's got uses when the 10 is a little "big", but both still fit in a small camera bag, including several accessories and extra batteries. If you use a backpack or sling type bag, you'd still have room for a huge picnic lunch!


The next move is to figure out "accessorizing" - the small folding Stratos bracket has always served me well, works nicely with the RX's, I'm thinking the small "puffer" style flash diffuser would be good to soften the flash, a little LED light for fill, have to test the small shotgun mic... not too much this "kit" wouldn't be able to do nicely!

Dave, the camera will continue to grow on you as it has me. I can just about guarantee that.

I've been getting more of a kick out of this camera than any I've owned in a long time. :)

Ahh, bugger man, I thought this might be the case. Thanks for the info guys. We get hit hard in Aus and our dollar is dropping again against the Green Back. Oh well..

On the plus side, this is likely to remain a very usable and technologically advanced camera for at least a while - there might be a FEW "Mk2" improvements next year, but I'd rather have a year of better photos and video!

While there are a few "quibbles" so far (and those may vanish once I use it some more and figure out all it can do!), the wish list for "improvements" really wouldn't have very much on it... there's ALWAYS something, but even the slow zoom thing felt oddly "natural" (almost like a dolly move) as I tried a couple handheld test shots!


My list of cameras that have suddenly become "redundant", or mostly so, grew longer after actually putting hands on the RX10 - I should actually come out ahead once I sell a few off! There's always room for "special purpose" cams, and something "pocketable", but the RX10 covers a LOT of shooting scenarios.

And yes, the "fun" factor is quite significant if you enjoy shooting (both stills and video). Can't really put a price on that, OR the high quality output that seems well baked in!

Quick question - I understand the power zoom is slow, but can you override it manually, just by twisting a ring say?

I realise the shot change probably won't be usable, but am thinking if you simply need to do a quick reframe. (Probably cutting the zoom out in editing.)

As Noa has already stated, the zoom is "sorta slow" when you are in still or standby, but once you hit record, it's nearly glacial, a good 12 seconds from W to T, I just double checked it with the zoom lever - the fly by wire ring is worse, as you have multiple revolutions... awkward...

It appears to me that the traditional Sony "two step" slow/fast zoom action becomes a "one step", AKA: SLOW when you hit record - this may be intentional, or perhaps could be a firmware "glitch" in record mode (this is after all an "all new" camera, there may be glitches!) It's not the hardware, it CAN zoom faster, it's the way the firmware was designed from the factory - sort of like a throttle limiter to keep a car below a certain speed!.


That said, I did some walkaround shooting, doing a few zooms, and it felt actually rather "natural" for want of a better term. Definitely can't "crash zoom", but I think I can get used to it, and the slow zoom felt sort of more like a dolly move, which is in theory "better" so you don't have to cut the "crash" out?

I am sure there was a reasoning behind it, but it's a little "different", and will take some getting used to, particularly if you are trying to shoot live/run and gun, you'll HAVE to anticipate your shots/framing


I've suggested that Sony could possibly add a menu item that would allow a user to adjust the zoom speeds - I know I've seen that on "pro" cameras. If they open the API, this could probably be coded in about 5 minutes...

Processor likely needs the time to interpolate without breaking up the encoder. There is a lot of data to crunch from that sensor to make a 1920x1080 image.

Ron Evans

has anyone seen a little jump in the optics when zooming out from full tele? i noticed it when pointing up at a tall building and starting to zoom out, i got 2 different optical studders. most apparent when shooting faraway subjects

also, i noticed what noa was talking about with micro vibrations which arent apparent when shooting, but very apparent in editing. has me thinking a lot less of the standard stabilizer, and wondering if sony can make more settings for the active stabilizer, like low, medium, high. high being what the current only option is.

Haven't noticed that Darren. But I did mention early on in another forum that I felt the OIS was the weak point of the RX10.

@Ron -
I suspect the idea was to give a better "user experience" - while WE might know what a "crash zoom" is and where it comes in handy... there may have been a perception that preventing the "inexperienced user" from executing such a maneuver was desirable.

Recall the early "test footage" by reviewers who thought that waving the camera around wildly was "technique"... Such things do indeed "stress the encoder" and CODEC and result in crap footage. Sony might have felt that encouraging good camera work might reduce criticism? Criticism of a device for what is nothing other than "user malfunction" is all too common...


@Darrin -

Yep, I've noticed some "jump" - it's a factor of the substantial glass and physics, the HX300 also has a little of it, same thing of starting and stopping a larger lens rather than the typical Handycam moving smaller internal elements.

Haven't turned off the "active" to see what happens as of yet, probably wouldn't do it unless tripod mounted anyway, as I've never been able to avoid my own "micro-wobbles" when handheld - as still as I can try to stand, breathing, pulse, and the microtwitching of muscles that prevents us falling over all seem to transmit to the camera!

I've noticed some criticism of the A7r as the internal shutter apparently shakes the camera when mounted on a large lens (basically leverage amplifying the shutter inertia, causing a linear "shake" and blurriness in the stills).


I'd begin to suspect that as we are shooting higher and higher resolution and expecting sharper and sharper images, these tiny motions will become more noticeable - much like many modern aircraft, that MUST have computer assistance to maintain stable flight, we may NEED "active" stabilization to avoid physics induced "issues". I've had a bit of fun with wind-induced and sound induced vibration with the HX300... stabilization can only do so much... and physics is unforgiving...

Dave, I can recall my Sony NEX-VG30 having better OIS and that had a pretty substantial piece of glass...but still smaller than that of the RX10.

So maybe you're right. I've done some casual A/Bs with OIS in Standard vs Active and there may be a slight hit in resolution in using Active. More importantly though, you do lose some of the WA capability of the lens when using Active.

Of course in WA, we don't really care as much about the method of OIS. So there the Standard is perfectly fine in stabilizing motion.

I agree the OIS is not that great, better than nothing though. Just not in the same league as the HX200v but then the image quality is way better. I have gotten into the habit of turning Steadyshot off, both active and standard, when shooting with the cam mounted on a tripod and immediately I remove it to shoot hand held I turn on Steadyshot active mode. The quality loss that might result is not a problem for me. The ‘micro-wobbles’, and they are there, I easily fix in post.

Ken -

The VG30 would have a mass several times that of the RX10, and a very different form factor - so it wouldn't be unexpected that the IS had an easier time of it. I've been shooting smaller cameras and still cams shooting video for a while, so I'm a little more used to it.

Any time you're shooting a "still camera" style cam, you've got all the glass hanging "forward" - while the VG series is also inherently "nose heavy" with the 18-200, it's a particular quirk of an "SLR" format - and it gets worse the farther you zoom.... you constantly must counter forces tending to induce "pitch".

One thing that helps noticeably is the addition of a small flash bracket sticking out to the left side - sort of a mini "fig rig".. The second vertical "grip" is effective against "roll" and "pitch" that tend to be the most distracting. I use a folding one from Stratos that takes little room in the bag and weighs almost nothing. My initial tests with the RX10 looked good on the small screen, but I had "active" on... will have to experiment a bit more, and of course put the results on bigger screens and scrutinize mercilessly!

It appears to me that the traditional Sony "two step" slow/fast zoom action becomes a "one step", AKA: SLOW when you hit record - this may be intentional, or perhaps could be a firmware "glitch" in record mode (this is after all an "all new" camera, there may be glitches!) It's not the hardware, it CAN zoom faster, it's the way the firmware was designed from the factory - sort of like a throttle limiter to keep a car below a certain speed
It's *possible* that it may be down to power issues - power to the zoom motor being more limited when the camera is in record mode?

From your comments about the "fly by wire ring" being even slower, can I take it the answer to my question is a total "no". No way (whilst recording of going from wide to tele quickly, even if the zoom is not intended to be used? (So camera doesn't have to remain framed.)

Interesting hypothesis, but I don't think it's power related.... here's why....

When not in record mode, you can in fact be aggressive with the "fly by wire" ring, and get a "crash zoom" - you can hear the motor, same as if you use the lever, you distinctly hear the two "steps"... and the ring actually can be forced to a pretty snappy zoom....

Once you hit that record button, you can do the exact same thing, and the camera actually IGNORES the aggressive input entirely! It will however let you do a nice smooth slow (and Interestingly QUIET) zoom. IOW, the firmware is clearly intentionally set up to prevent fast zooming while recording from what I can see... AKA it's a feature not a bug....

And I'll concur with the 12 second W to T optical while recording, which is longer if you are using clear and or digital zoom ranges. I did just notice that the DIGITAL (meaning both Clear and digital) DOES seem to zoom faster, which in combination with the above leads me to an additional hypothesis.... I still think part of it is to maintain video quality with a novice operator... BUT...

The zoom motor is "barely" audible in slow mode, and fairly noticeable in "fast"... so methinks there's a strong possibility that the "throttling" (and this would mean that is LITERALLY what it is!) is intentional for the purposes of keeping usable AUDIO while recording! IOW, you'd hear the zoom motor in your audio if you could and did execute a "crash zoom" rendering the audio marginal or unusable, but the slower setting maintains an acceptable S/N ratio!


BOTH these hypotheses (preservation of video and audio quality) make sense, and I can see where they might make such an engineering decision - from a "marketing" and support standpoint, there have of course been complaints about zoom (and focus) motor noise showing up in recordings and of course breakup from stressing the CODEC with overly rapid movement, in theory this would reduce those "complaints", and improve market perceptions of the camera's quality.

I think I can live with the "slow" zoom, but will have to do more actual shooting before I know for sure - the slower speed felt very "smooth", and to me actually more natural in some way in admittedly brief testing, but I have not had time to shoot more tests due to personal events...

I try to plan my framing ahead and avoid fast zooms if at all possible anyway, so I don't see it as a "deal breaker" in an otherwise "fun" camera that is getting images that are making me VERY happy. If you were to say to me "you can ONLY have ONE camera" (yeah, I know you all out there just twitched at THAT thought <wink>), I'd grab this one without hesitating... and secretly pocket an RX100M2 while you weren't looking!

Just to update the zoom "issue" - got the handle from a VPR10, which has the multi-USB connection...

Works nicely with both the RX10 and 100M2 (and the HX300 as well!). It has a "slow zoom" switch on the side, and It appears that is the ONLY zoom speed when in record mode with the RX10, even though there are clearly two steps while in standby, as per usual Sony remotes. I think using one of the adapter cables and an RMAV2 would be just as effective in practical use, and I have those "old" LANC controls laying around anyway...

I was hoping that there might be more access to zoom speed controls, but no luck, at least with this remote - I have to dig around and see if any other cheap LANCs I have control zoom speeds, and figure out if they can be hacked into the multi-port. Not sure it's really necessary to have access, it's just so tempting to try to hack the design!



At this point I firmly believe the slow zoom speed in record mode is a "feature", not a "bug", to both "improve" video quality and prevent the zoom motor from being "too" loud in the audio channels. Have had almost no time to do further shooting, but thought I would pass these quick observations along, FWIW. Still not a deal breaker in my book. I'd have done more testing, but my "second shooter" grabbed the cam and started shooting stills with it... she seems to like the camera rather a lot... good thing the 100M2 was in the bag and worked fine!