I labeled the clips by the display shows what mode the camera was playing. I was relying that so if that was not displaying correctly, they could be labeled wrong. I would double check.

Since I got an another obligation, I had to shoot mountainbike race in 60i format, but thanks to my new employee who is also mountainbike lover helped me to shoot FX1 with the same angle. So these clips are coming after cutting and uploading 24f clips for filmmaking target member here. I managed to shoot a scenery of a sunny bay around 4 o'clock with no gamma curve, cine 1 curve and cine 2 curve. They are already being uploaded so you will see them as soon as Chris comes back from shooting. If these clips appear to be 30 or 29.97, I don't know what is happening. Maybe something is happening when Lumiere HD is capturing? I have to ask Frederic about that.

I also shot various scenes with Cinegamma 2 on. I will make short clips for that too. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to shoot the chart and green back since I have to capture all of the footage before I return the camera.
I will do my best to try those. Maybe have my employees work on them tomorrow morning before we return the cam. But people already see the aberration happening with my bike clips so it seems to be clear that the lense is not quite comparable for real HD because of the price? But what I see is that comparing the bikeseq files with XL H1 and FX1, I think XL H1 looks the best when I zoom all the way in at x20. And low light ability is clearly better on XL H1. What I really wanna see is the compression characteristics between the two.FX1 and HC1 are not capable of shooting mountainbiking race (cross race and downhill) without compression artifacts, I need one camera that doesn't in the same format. If XL H1 is excellent, then I would sell my FX1 and try to buy XL H1 and use HC1 for more handy use.

baygamma files are uploaded now (Chris has to put them listed for you), so I will search good portion of my footage for different situation. Be back soon.

I was discussing with Frederic Haubrich and all of the XL H1's 24 frame clips will be 24 frame simulation and it is based on 1080/60i format. So if you open them in whatever the softwareto playback, it might say 29.97. Is that the case?

Alright. View, in VLC back to back, if you will:

http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Movies/XLH1-24p-1.m2t
http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Movies/HollywoodBlvd1.m2t

The XLH clip is in 24.

Thx for posting the 24F clip Nate. I had seen your Hollywood clips before and now that I saw it back to back with the 24F clip I must say that Im more convinced that 24F doesnt give the same feeling as real 24P. I really dont know whats missing bc it looks much better than CF, but it still doesnt look like 24P to me!

Kaku, thanks for uploading new footage. Cant wait to see them!

It appears to me that Canon did the same trick, using flags. It has nothing to do with how the Canon got those 24 frames from the CCDs....that's another issue entirely.

Where are you seeing repeat flags? I'm not seeing that. The 24F has twenty four frames, the 30F frames etc.

24frame portion of XLH1 tape did not play on HC1. It said incompatible format. However, 60i portion of the tape played fine.

I'll pretty much always defer to Barry Green, but isn't this a hallmark of HDV, not the frame rate? Canon has something similar to JVC's "motion smoothing" in the XL H1. They're not calling it motion smoothing, but something like it is in there, no matter what the frame rate. It's just more apparent at slower frame rates.

I thought JVC had motion smoothing to cover for the fact that it did not shoot interlaced. Why would Canon need this since it shoots interlaced just fine?

Thx for posting the 24F clip Nate. I had seen your Hollywood clips before and now that I saw it back to back with the 24F clip I must say that Im more convinced that 24F doesnt give the same feeling as real 24P. I really dont know whats missing bc it looks much better than CF, but it still doesnt look like 24P to me!

Kaku, thanks for uploading new footage. Cant wait to see them!

19 more 24 frame(emulation) files are uploaded to the server now including three gamma settings on ocean scenery. It seems to be no sense to go without the cinegamma setting, so I shot all of the 24 frame mode clips with "cine2" gamma setting and black parameter set to "stretched". I also did 60i comparison between XLH1 and FX1 but since I can edit that later (without the cam), I will work on that later.

Just wait for Chris to come home and feed you all.

Kaku, arigato gozaimashita!

That's classic chromatic aberration. One edge will have magenta ghost, the other will be green.

Ok Nate, I'm now with you: Did not spot the green ghost at the first glance. Obviously, a simultaneous green and magenta ghost cannot be removed by adjusting the white balance.

I've been also thinking of this deck issue, for, so far, more involved editing has called for a deck. But if new portable hard disk devices for storage appear, then, perhaps, it's better to store both on tape and hard disk, and use the tape only as a backup. (Just read yesterday from the newspaper that these new dvd discs will be able to store up to 100 GB of data.)

My more immediate concern is, will my editing software (Premiere Pro) be able to import all the footages from XL H1. At least, it seems that currently the Premiere Pro HDV mode does not recognize 25P (25F).

Lauri, download the Aspect HD 15 day trial...its superb. I have only 3.2 trial installed but will download the 3.3 trial when my JVC arrives tomorrow since as far as I know only v3.3 supports the 25p of JVC and its physical interface.

I can almost promise that Cineform will support the Xl H1 and all its features (24, 25 & 30F) as well in future updates.

Canon has something similar to JVC's "motion smoothing" in the XL H1. They're not calling it motion smoothing, but something like it is in there, no matter what the frame rate.

I'm not seeing it in the 24F I shot.

I see in a few of Kaku's shots what appears to be 1/24th shutter...which is east to do by mistake on that camera. There's a lot of buttons right next to that iris dial, including the two for the shutter.

I know it's hard to take one person's opinion for it, but what I saw yesterday, and have a little of on my drive now looks just like 24P from my HD100.

I know it's hard to take one person's opinion for it, but what I saw yesterday, and have a little of on my drive now looks just like 24P from my HD100.

Nate, if you have more 24F footage apart from the ones already posted, can you plz upload them? Id love to see it, thx!

Nate, if you have more 24F footage apart from the ones already posted, can you plz upload them? Id love to see it, thx!

It's in a few of my posts back, in this thread. There's an HD100 clip right next to it also for comparison.

Well, I must say I'm impressed so far. I don't have any HD gear, so I converted the m2t files to DV and played them on a broadcast monitor from Final Cut Pro. I'm big on progressive capture and the 24p look, so I thought I'd compare the 3 "bikeseq" clips back to back.

1 - interlaced, when you need it, it's there - classic "in the moment" reality look.

2 - 30F - definitely more narrative and filmic, but still smooth pans and motion.

3 - 24F - It looks just like what I'm getting with 24p with my XL2. I removed pull down with Cinema Tools, and it fit right into a 24p sequence in Final Cut Pro, no problem. I don't know what the official workflow would be with FCP.

Regarding the dynamic range, it looks like it's still very sensitive to highlight blowout. I'd like to see some footage with controlled lighting with no blow out whatsoever.

I really appreciate the posting of footage. I think the community here regarding Canon is world class, and that's what led me to purchasing the XL2 - the sample footage was readily available, proudly posted, and gorgeous.

I'm looking forward to seeing more from the XL-H1, and also the mysterious HVX200.

3 - 24F - It looks just like what I'm getting with 24p with my XL2. I removed pull down with Cinema Tools, and it fit right into a 24p sequence in Final Cut Pro, no problem.


I don't see any pulldown in the 24F clips - what are you removing?

I see in a few of Kaku's shots what appears to be 1/24th shutter...which is east to do by mistake on that camera. I know it's hard to take one person's opinion for it, but what I saw yesterday, and have a little of on my drive now looks just like 24P from my HD100.

If Barry is right, 1/24th would be a slow digital shutter as the CCD is grabbing images every 1/48th. That would soften the image although the images you shot showed the same effect to my eye, so "motion smoothing" or deinterlacing seems more likely.

I agree the motion looks 24fps but it does somewhat look like moving objects lose rez.

I agree the motion looks 24fps but it does somewhat look like moving objects lose rez.

You're right, they do. But it happens on the Sonys, and also on my HD100. The effect is more pronounced in HDV 1080.

You're right, they do. But it happens on the Sonys, and also on my HD100. The effect is more pronounced in HDV 1080.

But on the clips you posted, it looked much more on the H1 - you are saying that's just due to codec issues on HDV and not 24F deinterlacing?

Stephan, I believe he removed the pull down after he had converted to dv (I.E. 24F to 29.97 to 23.98) I think it's also important to be careful how we compare footage, as the test that Charles did with hd100 also used the mini 35 adapter which would be another key issue in adding "film look"

Hi,

The resolution is very high as expected. So high in fact that you can scale the image immensely. I've made an example for you, you'll want to see this:

Click here for wmv (http://www.planetliquid.us/web_video/szn89productions/h1resolution.wmv)

Couple of observations. The footage is slow to edit even on a twin processor computer (same as Sony). Get ready to wait for rendering because multiple streams in real time are almost impossible. The clips in the CX color corrector show the highlights blasting 100IRE. Japan's NTSC is NTSC-MJ which puts their blacks at 0 IRE. In the supplied clips the blacks are right around 6.5 IRE. The footage looks like video right off a handy cam and I'm sure the settings will need to be adjusted. Are there any preset gamma curves prebuilt into the cameras menu?

All in all, it has the real resolution but the editing goes slow. The camera needs adjusting to get some more color range out of it.

But on the clips you posted, it looked much more on the H1 - you are saying that's just due to codec issues on HDV and not 24F deinterlacing?

Yes. HDV1080 stretches the capabilities of the MPEG2 codec much more than HDV720.

My HD100 suffers (in my opinion) from less HDV artifacts than the XLH1, but the XLH1 has way more raw resolution. Pick your poison!

I was looking at uncompressed HD-SDI out of the camera straight to an HD CRT that had HD-SDI input yesterday. I saw nothing like blurred motion, I promise you.

Kaku's XL H1 clips, "Part Two -- The Sequel," now available at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=52110

Please discuss those clips at the new thread linked above. Thanks in advance,

My more immediate concern is, will my editing software (Premiere Pro) be able to import all the footages from XL H1. At least, it seems that currently the Premiere Pro HDV mode does not recognize 25P (25F).

Download Aspect HD for Premiere Pro (www.cineform.com) that will support all released HD modes of HDV cameras, and it almost works with all the modes of the XL H1 (needs a couple of tweaks.)

I think I may prefer 720p on the HD100 at this point. I always have been a huge fan of 720p for many reasons other than resolution and framerate. Such things as rendering 3D scenes and other graphics are naturally much much faster at 720p. Now after finally seeing footage from 3 groups of 1080i cameras, FX1/Z1, HC1/A1, and now the CANON XLH1 I can see almost the same level of quality. While the CANON does in my opinion look better than any current 1080i HDV camera 1080i is 1080i. The 24/30f modes seem to have the same overall look. At first I didn't agree on the other people on here but now I do see it. No matter what camera you use trying to cram 1080i into 25 Mbits is a tough job. For most things it handles it well but sometimes it falls apart. 720p HDV right now seems to handle things much better. Well at least from what I have seen so far. I have yet to see any major artifacts from any of the 720p footage I have seen.

I do think the XLH1 looks great but it still looks like HDV2 video to me. While I am sure the SDI video will look even better it will still have the same overall mood and feeling. I guess I have to decide if that is ok for me or using analog uncompressed from the JVC going to be better for me. For me now at this point it comes down to the certain look I want. I do think I am now leaning back towards the JVC

I think I may prefer 720p on the HD100 at this point. I always have been a huge fan of 720p for many reasons other than resolution and framerate. Such things as rendering 3D scenes and other graphics are naturally much much faster at 720p. Now after finally seeing footage from 3 groups of 1080i cameras, FX1/Z1, HC1/A1, and now the CANON XLH1 I can see almost the same level of quality. While the CANON does in my opinion look better than any current 1080i HDV camera 1080i is 1080i. The 24/30f modes seem to have the same overall look. At first I didn't agree on the other people on here but now I do see it. No matter what camera you use trying to cram 1080i into 25 Mbits is a tough job. For most things it handles it well but sometimes it falls apart. 720p HDV right now seems to handle things much better. Well at least from what I have seen so far. I have yet to see any major artifacts from any of the 720p footage I have seen.

I do think the XLH1 looks great but it still looks like HDV2 video to me. While I am sure the SDI video will look even better it will still have the same overall mood and feeling. I guess I have to decide if that is ok for me or using analog uncompressed from the JVC going to be better for me. For me now at this point it comes down to the certain look I want. I do think I am now leaning back towards the JVC

It wasn't likely and probably too late, but I mentioned in my VideoAlpha Magazine last month about Canon should be supporting everything in this camera, 720p/i and 1080i/p because some people needs higher resolution once they see 1080, but people like me needs the format that does not break up for fast motion. It seems to be correct of what I said, if they had done that, people might be accepting the higher price tag.

PLEASE WATCH THE SECOND BATCH TO HAVE OPINION ON FILM LOOK AND FEEL, because first batch don't incorporate with extra gamma settings.

Most of the clips in the secont batch uses cinetonegamma.

Thanks

My feelings exact Thomas Smet!

Kaku, thanks for all your hard work, man. I'm sure everyone is very appreciative. I do want to chime in and say that I saw footage at Resfest today (part of another thread.. sorry Chris) but I have to go on record in saying that although this footage is good it is not under "controlled" conditions, or at least as controlled as it would be in a normal film production with attention to lighting, composition, color pallette, production design and tweaking of the camera's settings to get the best possible picture.
The footage I saw today at Resfest was, at least to me, blow away. It was up on the big screen and professionally done.
While I was watching it I thought back on Kaku's clips and thought they were good but do not do this camera justice.
This thing from what I saw can kick some serious butt when the right people get their hands on it.
That being said, it's hard to give final judgement on the images just because we are obviously only seeing shades of what it is capable of.

That being said, it's hard to give final judgement on the images just because we are obviously only seeing shades of what it is capable of.

Cosign. Amen.

Well, that is one of the reasons why I hate providing what I don't usually do. Filmmaking approach. I should never do that in the future.

I did mention before that rock musicain can't play classic music in its tradditional way.

I'm into capturing the real performance rather than making up stories and situations, so yes, I'm not the right person to put my hands on this camera.

XL H1 is too heavy for my purpose, and don't even balance on my shoulder like HD100 would, and not light enough to take it around in the extreme situation.

Well, that is one of the reasons why I hate providing what I don't usually do. Filmmaking approach. I should never do that in the future.


Kaku, I'm very sorry if I offended you. I don't mean to say you are unprofessional in any way shape or form. You did as well if not better than any of us here could considering your time constraints, conditions and so on.
My intention is to say that the footage I saw was with a film crew with tons of production equipment, they even showed footage of the crew along with the footage shot.
Don't quote me on this, but I believe what I saw was Canon's "official" footage that we've all been waiting for.
No one can match that by going out on the town with a camcorder alone and no one is ever expected to.
I completely appreciate what you've done because it demonstrates to a degree what the camera is capable of.
Truly, truly sorry if I offended in anyway.
It wasn't my intention.

What you saw Eric was the "Watchmaker's Shop" vignette that Canon USA put together (and still has not yet put online, go figure). We are very fortunate to have Kaku Ito provide us with these XL H1 clips... just like last year with the Sony FX1, these are among the first of their kind available anywhere; definitely the first 24F clips in the world that have been made publicly available. We all owe Kaku a debt of gratitude for thinking about sharing his limited time on the XL H1 with DV Info Net community here.

Canon USA pulled out all the stops on their sample video; they had a full crew, a crane, a dolly, a DVCPRO HD deck, video village, craft services and the works... and for some reason have chosen to show it only at ResFest so far; it is a complete mystery to me why this video did not get put on the web at the Canon site right after the Expo announcement of the H1. If you want to see "filmmaking" with the H1 then you'll have to hold out for the Canon USA promo.

Thanks again to Kaku; someone in Japan put the H1 in his hands and he thought of DV Info Net right away. The amount of sample material he has submitted so far is just wonderful. The man is catering to our requests. We owe him a big thank you.

No Eric, it's true and you said what you felt, so that is real.

I don't have any filmmaking background, so I'm not entitled to provide the clues for what this cam can do for filmmaking.

But one thing is though, I had PDX10s before, and PDX10 was great in shooting Live band performances at massively lighted situation, but it was terrible in natural low lighted situation. So, yes, naturally, heavily production equipped environment makes any camara perform better.

I should put a title as "naturalist" next my name, so people know for the next time on, I do emphasize on natural environment for shooting. AND that does not mean that I would not stop developing knowledge and ability to shoot better in that situation.

Thanks again to Kaku; someone in Japan put the H1 in his hands and he thought of DV Info Net right away. The amount of sample material he has submitted so far is just wonderful. The man is catering to our requests. We owe him a big thank you.

I agree, Chris, completely. I'm sorry that it came off as more of a bite on Kaku's footage because I was so far away from that notion it wasn't even on the horizon of my thought process.
Kaku, don't ever stop giving us footage, man. I'd hate for Chris to hunt me down like a dog and kill me.


I should put a title as "naturalist" next my name, so people know for the next time on, I do emphasize on natural environment for shooting. AND that does not mean that I would not stop developing knowledge and ability to shoot better in that situation.

And shooting under regular circumstances is great, we do need to see this camera operate under all kinds of conditions, run and gun included.

Jeez, now I feel like a jerk. (Insert sad face icon here...)

I'd hate for Chris to hunt me down like a dog and kill me.

Naw Eric, the Kennelmaster doesn't engage in that anymore now that he has us wranglers to do it for him.

All kidding aside, this is why written communication has to be thought out and words chosen carefully. I kind of came away with how your earlier post could be misconstrued as a slight against Kaku's camera skills.

What he has posted is very useful to me, because that's typically what I shoot and the more 'realistic' it looks, the more I like it. That's why I'm such a fan of the promise of affordable HD.

-gb-

All kidding aside, this is why written communication has to be thought out and words chosen carefully. I kind of came away with how your earlier post could be misconstrued as a slight against Kaku's camera skills

-gb-


Ah, the joys of being the Kennelmaster! Thanks for the advice, Greg. It will be well heeded.

Naw Eric, the Kennelmaster doesn't engage in that anymore now that he has us wranglers to do it for him.It's true. I have people who do this for me these days. "I was attending the baptism of my godson at the time, your honor."

Chris, good solid alibi, I like it.

Kaku, if you're ever in LA, the beers are on me, sincerely.

Personally I would prefer to see footage shot along Katu's style as it is very easy with a full crew and plenty of time, lights and money to make any video look good.

If the camera is going to get the independant small shops to buy it we must see footage shot by one man bands.

Thanks for all the hard work and time Katu

You see, even when you try so hard, even taking time to shoot, things don't get perfect so I call my effort as "study" rather than professional work.

I'm inclined with understanding of music, sound, sports (at least BMX and mountainbiking) and with more than average (as normal person) understanding of video, nonlinear editing environment and web technologies. I'm not pro of any of them (I run companies distributing MOTU software/hardware and system integrating NLE and music production system), but at least always try to stand users' side and sympathize to research the useability and quality, and at the end, develop the culture of production and the real performance of music and sports, capturing the precious moments, performance that may happen only once or twice.

Thank you Eric for sticking around and I'm not taking it personally with you, but filmmaking style is not my bag at all, so we should do cooperative testing for the next time, to make senario to do perfect testing here, that will make me understand filmmaking aspect and I'm sure others that want to getting into would appreciate it, too.

Thank you for all of you for the encouragement.

Another hard thing for me is to express professionally in English as a second language. My writing might not sound professional, but I tell you, even at my current level of writing English, I improved a lot from posting and getting commnents here. So, I thank you all.

Thank you Kaku,
making tests is heavy that I know for sure...
Atleast I got a lot of information and I am very happy that you shared your weekend with us .

This thing from what I saw can kick some serious butt when the right people get their hands on it.

Well, that's true with any camera.

But I don't think controlled conditions will take away the video look. Nate's L.A. footage was also in uncontrolled conditions and looks like film. 24f doesn’t look the same as 24p.
It's what I said before. Resolution doesn't make a camera.
I know it's quite early to fully judge. But my first impressions are that the HD100 is an overall better camera.

Well, that is one of the reasons why I hate providing what I don't usually do. Filmmaking approach. I should never do that in the future.

I did mention before that rock musicain can't play classic music in its tradditional way.

I'm into capturing the real performance rather than making up stories and situations, so yes, I'm not the right person to put my hands on this camera.

XL H1 is too heavy for my purpose, and don't even balance on my shoulder like HD100 would, and not light enough to take it around in the extreme situation.

Hey Kaku, you are doing a great favor for this whole community. You shouldn’t feel bad at all. I'm sure we all are very grateful to you. If it wasn't for you, we would most likely have to wait a long time till footage hit the "airwaves." So, don't be so hard on yourself. Specially that your footage looks great. It's not your fault it doesn't look like film. You shot it properly. I think it wouldn't look much more filmic even if you had done the test with filmmaking in mind, using a full crew with all the equipment. If you had shot those clips with an Arriflex or any other 35mm camera, no matter what, it would have looked like film. So, it's not your fault at all.

Michael,

Don't worry Michael, I know I tend to take things too seriously.

By the way, my source, Mr. Sekiguchi at Apex (http://www.appex.co.jp/) (Canon's broadcast lense dealer) told me that Canon changed the distribution channel on this XL H1, from the consumer channel to broadcast channel. He is going to talk to the broadcast product manger next week to report all of our cooporative effort here. If we raise enough recognition here, so we might be able to do another test in the near future. I personally requested that I want smaller HDV with 720p or 720 interlaced in a casio G-shock sytle chassis. No other brand had done it before, so it might be a kick.

Mr. Sekiguchi was able to get the sample unit last week, to start taking it around to his broadcast related customers beginning this week, and he thought of me and got okay from Mr. Yamaguchi of Canon Sales to let me use it for the last weekend. They are the same people that helped someone from france who wanted to shoot independent movie with XL2.
They're intention and actual efforts to help the people in the field is very generous and in the contrary, I never had received any kind of recognition from Panasonic nor Sony (I got help on GS400, DVC30, FX1 and HC1 from Pro Video Station Shinjuku (http://www.pv-station.com/) and Mr. Nakamura from VideoAlpha magazine). So, I must mention that I really appreciate their help.

For the tourist coming to Japan, Pro Video Station always have the cheapest price tag for these popular cams. They are right in Shinjuku around all of the other huge camera stores are. So check it out and if you mention my name they will be extra nice to you.

If you really can put in a word to the product manager just tell them to make a gl2 with hdv and 1080i24f (or 720p24 jvc style, which I doubt they'd ever do) and 2 xlr inputs, that's all I and probably a lot of people need!

If you really can put in a word to the product manager just tell them to make a gl2 with hdv and 1080i24f (or 720p24 jvc style, which I doubt they'd ever do) and 2 xlr inputs, that's all I and probably a lot of people need!

We can try this anyway. I've been writing a column in a professional video magazine for close to ten years now. The topic is all up to me, so for the last several months, I've been writing about affordable HD production environment and the column is called "Affordable HD Study" on VideoAlpha magazine published by ShashinKogyo Shuppan. Since Canon could be different from Sony or Panasonic, I can keep putting requests that we can gather here on my column and hope they would listen. But my main goal is to suggest them the hardcore HDV camera with the chassis of G-shock style, so we can take it to extreme conditions without so much weight.

My requests are G-shock style chassis, DVC30 style manual zoom ring, 2 XLRs like Evan says (or maybe even detachable unit) and special vistasize mode (less active pixels to avoid compression breakups for fast camera action) and so on. I will probably make a special blog section to keep sending the message. If you want to join me, feel free.

What codec is this! It won't play... I took it to my XPpro box and it wouldn't play on that either. So not on my macs or PC. What do I need?


Hi,

The resolution is very high as expected. So high in fact that you can scale the image immensely. I've made an example for you, you'll want to see this:

Click here for wmv (http://www.planetliquid.us/web_video/szn89productions/h1resolution.wmv)

Couple of observations. The footage is slow to edit even on a twin processor computer (same as Sony). Get ready to wait for rendering because multiple streams in real time are almost impossible. The clips in the CX color corrector show the highlights blasting 100IRE. Japan's NTSC is NTSC-MJ which puts their blacks at 0 IRE. In the supplied clips the blacks are right around 6.5 IRE. The footage looks like video right off a handy cam and I'm sure the settings will need to be adjusted. Are there any preset gamma curves prebuilt into the cameras menu?

All in all, it has the real resolution but the editing goes slow. The camera needs adjusting to get some more color range out of it.

I managed to play it with Media Player Classic - wmv9 codecs installed.