A pro tog normally crouches at the head of the isle but not these two!

There are certainly some weird developments in photography….. what happened to getting a back shot of the dress as they walked down the isle? Hopefully you didn't have a third one in your way for that as well!

A pro tog

That says it all, you recognize the behavior of a beginner immediately, also they are standing side by side taking shots from the same angle which is a sign of insecurity, since that is a keymoment to get a shot from they probably agreed in advance to take the same shots incase one would mess up, if it was a "pro" duo one would be crouching and the second one would be standing in a totally different place. I see this more then once, worst kind is if a friend of the family asks if they can shoot pics all day as well. Must say I sometimes get pro photogs that have the feeling they are the center of the universe and they do whatever it takes to get the shot.

worst kind is if a friend of the family asks if they can shoot pics all day as well.
I generally take a lot of pictures when I'm a guest at a wedding; video is too much work to do as a guest but with photography you can just send them unedited pics after the wedding if you wish to. I try to stay out of the way of the hired professionals, but that doesn't mean I'm not moving around at all.

last wedding I was a guest at, I didn't even have a phone with me not to mention a camera! leave it to the hired help I say.
kicked back and had a great day

:-)

Bad 2nd shooter. I've never seen both at the front. Personally I would probably tell them myself to shoot from a different angle, although I'm usually in the front of the aisle myself, so there'd be no room for 3 up there.

In the cases where I have done photography as a guest often the "hired help" did a terrible job, so while I consider myself a novice at photography (and a professional at video), sometimes it's not difficult to do better than the "pro photog," in which case the bride and groom have been quite happy to have additional free photos from a guest which are sometimes better than the hired photographer.

At one wedding I did guest photography at the official photographer, who was a relatvie who did pro photography, decided to stop taking pictures after the speeches, so missed cake cutting, bouquet, send-off, etc., to the bride and groom's dismay. Fortunately I was still taking pictures then so captured all of that.

I also feel awkward being at a wedding without a camera in my hand. Photo/video is fun for me so without a camera a wedding is less enjoyable. I don't really view it as work. Then again, photography isn't really work for me since I do it more as a hobby.

I find this normally happens when the second shooter is a contractor who doesnt shoot with the primary all that often. They are insecure, just copy the primary as they dont want to get in the shots or mess up.

+1 Danny... The assistants

This was a interesting post trying to convince guests to leave their camers/iphones/ipads at home rather than get in the way.

4 Good Reasons to Ask Your Guests to Leave Their Cameras at Home (http://www.glamour.com/weddings/blogs/save-the-date/2013/06/4-good-reasons-to-ask-your-gue.html)

Wedding tomorrow and a Pratt of a photog so im ready for him...Wedding Saturday and another Pratt so im ready for him... Get out of my way or I will leave you in then tell the bride like a tell tale and let her sort it out...

Then again, photography isn't really work for me since I do it more as a hobby.

and you piss off the people that are actually paid to do the job and most probably the bride & groom & half the guests - maybe they're just too nice to say.

The couple I mentioned where their photographer stopped taking pictures half way through the reception insisted on paying me for the photos I took as a guest. I kind of doubt that was just to make me feel like I wasn't being a pain at their wedding, but who knows.

I don't get annoyed when hobbyists shoot video or photos at weddings where I'm the hired videographer, as long as they stay out of my way, so I don't see why the hired professionals should get annoyed at me, again, as long as I stay out of their way. I'm not really concerned that a hobbyist will do a better job and make me (the professional) look bad, but hey, if they're that good and do do better, well, then good for them, and good for the bride and groom too, as they get an extra (better) free product.

I think the smart thing to do when a guest is taking video with a quality camera, if you think it could be of benefit, would be to ask them if you could copy their footage and use it. I mean, why declare war on guests with cameras? I never quite got that.

I think the smart thing to do when a guest is taking video with a quality camera, if you think it could be of benefit, would be to ask them if you could copy their footage and use it. I mean, why declare war on guests with cameras? I never quite got that.

Wait what??? I would never ask a guest to copy or use their footage at all!! Wow, imho that would be a massive blunder which when word got back to the bride & groom would make you the professional look silly.

As to your other post, Paul could have a point there. The "Pro Photographer" who was a relative, could have offered to shoot for free, as in their wedding gift to the couple. Being a pro-bono job he got the important shots, yet maybe as time went on it got too absurd with other guests not treating him like the pro & getting in his way as if he were just Uncle Bob which irritated him and he felt with 10 other people taking shots of the cake cutting let them handle it. Sounds a bit much tho to skip out on the cake & bouqet but maybe he felt the ceremony & portraits were enough. Maybe it was agree upon to only shoot up until the first dance too, since he was a guests the bride wanted him to just have fun & felt he'd done enough. Just playing devils advocate.

Wait what??? I would never ask a guest to copy or use their footage at all!! Wow, imho that would be a massive blunder which when word got back to the bride & groom would make you the professional look silly.
I can see how asking for a guest's footage could look unprofessional in a sense. But let's consider this; if the main goal is to give the client the best quality product you can, and you feel that the guest's footage will add to the quality of product that you can deliver, then it would make sense to ask for the footage, from that point of view. Consider that, for example, DSLRs tend to look less professional as a videographer's main camera, yet, people began using them not for their professional look, but because it often added to the quality of their production.


As to your other post, Paul could have a point there. The "Pro Photographer" who was a relative, could have offered to shoot for free, as in their wedding gift to the couple. Being a pro-bono job he got the important shots, yet maybe as time went on it got too absurd with other guests not treating him like the pro & getting in his way as if he were just Uncle Bob which irritated him and he felt with 10 other people taking shots of the cake cutting let them handle it. Sounds a bit much tho to skip out on the cake & bouqet but maybe he felt the ceremony & portraits were enough. Maybe it was agree upon to only shoot up until the first dance too, since he was a guests the bride wanted him to just have fun & felt he'd done enough. Just playing devils advocate.
That's certainly possible. Though, in this particular case the bride and groom said they were upset he suddenly stopped taking photos, so therefore they were expecting him to beyond the speeches. In the case of a professional, though, it's obviously quite unprofessional to quit taking photos because a guest or guests are taking lots of photos.

I shoot a high volume of weddings as a photographer and I supply quite a few albums, mainly from the high-end Italian manufacturer Graphistudio.

I let clients use guest images in their album if they wish.

Anyway, my point is that the technical quality of many supplied files is way below what you really need. I always ask for the original unedited files but more often than not they are beyond reasonable rescue other than as very small images because they simply weren't shot using appropriate settings in the first place.

So I would not encourage the submission of guests footage and I would keep clients expectations very low. The obvious elephant traps with video would be guests inattention to audio and to cam stabilisation. Oh and not using cams that can perform well in low light and not making simple essential adjustments such as exposure compensation.

Content does always trump technical quality for clients of course, but never underestimate how irredeemable guest stuff can be no matter how high-spec their gear may be. The insulting but true phrase "all the gear no idea" often applies. You only have to look at some of the samples of the sites of businesses that hire out video cams direct to couples and then undertake to do the editing for them to get a feel for it. If the samples are the best gawd knows what the average are like!

Pete

I've never used guest footage in a wedding, but there was one time I was editing for another company and I saw in the video footage of a guest using a professional camcorder that was as good or better than the ones the company I was editing for used, and it was all shot from a locked down tripod, so if the guy had the basics right (exposure, focus, composition) then it was probably usable footage which would have helped the edit. I asked the guy I was editing for about it and if I remember rightly he said he'd tried to get the footage from the guest, but the guest didn't speak English, or something to that effect, and he wasn't able to get the footage.

Sure, in most cases guest footage isn't going to be up to par with the footage that a professional is filming, or the angles may not coincide with what you'd want, etc., but in rare cases it could be, such as if the guest is a professional who not only has pro gear but pro skills to go with it. I mean, if I was shooting a wedding with a couple C100s and a guest who was a professional showed up with a C300 and got a different angle that I thought would be useful, I doubt what would be on my mind would be, "I hope the bride and groom don't think it unprofessional that I'm using quality footage from a skilled guest's $14,000 camera."

I've certainly bumped into guests who are pros at weddings before. One who was taking photos ran a high end wedding video company, and another shot national TV shows (such as House Hunters) with an Arri Alexa among other high end cameras.

last wedding I was a guest at, I didn't even have a phone with me not to mention a camera! leave it to the hired help I say.
kicked back and had a great day

:-)

amen
amen
amen
amen

I've certainly bumped into guests who are pros at weddings before. One who was taking photos ran a high end wedding video company, and another shot national TV shows (such as House Hunters) with an Arri Alexa among other high end cameras.

and I think that;s the point - they are there as guests not as anything else - if you were a celebrant would you hop up and help the officiant on the day do his job? if you were a chef would you knock up a quick salad for the guests?.

I can't think of anything more unprofessional than getting in the way of the paid professional doing his job - and the more you know about the craft, the more likely you are to be in the way - you are looking for the same things that the professional is looking for, framing, composition, light & shadow. rank amateurs get in the way because they don't know what they're doing and 'experienced' amateurs are just as bad because they do (or think they do).

Sorry if I'm ranting but it's getting more and more difficult to shoot good footage without being in the couple's face - there is a new 'thing' here called the 'unplugged' wedding - no cameras, no phones, no facebook - I go to sleep dreaming about it.

Everybody add a clause similar to this in to your contracts if you haven't already:

Company name is not responsible for missed footage if there is interference from guest's, family or vendor on the day of shooting.

Can't stress the above enough ... there is absolutely no way that guests/family will stop filming at weddings and intefering with the pro's. Why? because believe it or not, some people feel comfortable fiddling around with their phones / cameras at social gatherings, rather than standing/sitting there doing nothing. It makes them feel comfortable.

I recently did a job, where the clients had booked two separate photogs, and one them came with an additional video guy. The first photographer and myself where outside the venue after visiting the groom, when a second photog and video guy showed up. They had been to see the bride. This was the first time we had been informed that there would be another crew!!!

The clients had booked my top package with a crew of 3. So in all there where 5 camera people and 6 cameras pointed at them.

To cut the story short it was chaos. The other video guy got the hint he was not needed and left after the speeches.

To many cooks defiantly spoil the broth.

Can't stress the above enough ... there is absolutely no way that guests/family will stop filming at weddings and intefering with the pro's. Why? because believe it or not, some people feel comfortable fiddling around with their phones / cameras at social gatherings, rather than standing/sitting there doing nothing. It makes them feel comfortable.
I'd say a second reason guest take photos is to make sure they have them, and fast. We live in a fast paced world, and people like to post photos from the wedding they just went to on their Facebook that night, not at an unforeseen date in the future when they may or may not get ahold of the professional pictures taken that day. In my experience of being a guest at weddings, I hardly ever get to see the professional pictures from the wedding; maybe just a few on Facebook, but nothing much.

In a world where everyone has a camera, and people like to take pictures with their friends, at parties, and different social events, but then to suddenly tell them when they're at a wedding, an event they'll surely want photos of, that they can't or shouldn't use their cameras, and will have to wait, again, for an unforeseen date in the future when they may or may not get ahold of the professional pictures, I think is asking a bit much in this culture.

And why is that really necessary? I guess different people have different filming styles so to some it may be more important to have no guests with cameras in your shots. Personally, I haven't had any issues with guests getting in my way. A common shot during preps I'll try to capture is a rack focus from a bridesmaid with her phone taking a picture of the bride, and shots like that then make the participants of the weddings and their cameras, part of the story. Of course I don't want any of my cameramen or equipment in the shots, and don't want the photographer in my shots, but generally showing guests with cameras in my shots is not an issue because they're part of the wedding. So it doesn't typically bother me, just as long as they don't stand directly in front of my camera during a shot I need.

This tread has so much going on. I am a videographer that began my career in still photography a long time ago. I quit shooting stills for a living years ago but am still quite capable at it. I am one of those video guys that considers myself a photographer regardless of what type of camera I have in my hands. For a long time I did not understand why so many videographers are so opposed to being referred to as a photographer. In my commercial world that is what we are. For some time now I have followed the posts of the wedding guys here and now I get it! At least within your specialty.

What bothers me most about the photo in the OP is the female photogs attire. She is going to grace everybody there with the gift of sticking her bare armpits in their face all day! Are you kidding me, have some class lady! Cameras attract a lot of attention. Look at all of the finely dressed guests staring at her pits, disgusting.

Pro vs. amateur, guest vs. pro:

Over the years I have had calls from so called friends inviting me to their special event. Be it a party, kids graduation, wedding, or whatever. Then the invitation ends with “oh by the way, would you mind bringing your cameras and snapping a few pictures for us?” That is when I realize I am not being invited to attend as a guest. I got the call because I can shoot. My real friends and family know me better than that. I not only do not bring a camera to those events, I don’t attend. People don’t understand that what we do is work. Magic does not happen because it is one of us pushing the button. It happens because we have worked hard at our careers. Those people don't want a "few snapshots". They want your work.

When a true friend or family member is getting married and I get the call it is different. I gladly shoot it for them for free. I do however, explain that I will not be there as a guest, I will be working, and my craft will be their gift. I refuse to take money from family or friends. I say, take the money I’m saving you and put it in your honeymoon budget. That makes me happy.

My only exception to my all or nothing rule is I will sometimes bring a still camera (as someone said, video is more work) to a reception to shoot candids for them. I stay out of the professionals way. My candids are good enough to be cherished and a great addition to the set up shots. Maybe there good because I am drinking and relaxing like a guest, no pressure on ;)

Only one time have I ever had a problem with the professionals at the event. I don’t have problems because I talk to them early and let them know I will not interfere with their work or shoot over their shoulder. I’m doing candids. Otherwise, if I pull an EOS 1D and a couple of 2.8 zooms out of a bag and set them on my table what I see is fear. That is the bottom line, that is why I talk to them Pro to Pro and put them at ease. Even Uncle Bob does not have the kind of gear I have. You guys all know you would pick me out of the crowd in a heartbeat. And the truth is, NO ONE (including me) wants to be out shot when you are the one collecting the check. So could I out shoot some of them? I will never know because I dot put them in that situation. I am a pro ;)

Steve

i know its an old thread but i thought this was somewhat entertaining :-)

Video | MasterGlass 55: Wedding | Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/photos/masterglass/2014/06/24/masterglass_55_wedding.html)

2 weeks ago I had a guest turn up with a 5D MK3 with a 70-200mm F2.8 L lens and bounce flash on it ... it's a hobby apparently.

This same joker will probably have a website by the end of the year showing off the photos he took at his friends wedding.

I had a guest turn up with a 5D MK3 with a 70-200mm F2.8 L lens and bounce flash on it

Like this one :- ) He had an external battery pack as well! (look bottom right)

http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/939-c/images/035-Bisham-Abbey-wedding-photography-Marlow-Buckinghamshire.jpg

Pete

I recently did a job, where the clients had booked two separate photogs, and one them came with an additional video guy. .

Wow. I would have guessed they (the photogs) were trying to add videography to their business, and were trying to get footage for their website and samples.

As for the OP, my first assumption, if he IS with the professional, is that he isn't actually a 2nd shooter. He's really an inexperienced photog trying to build their portfolio. That's why the duplicate shots. Though maybe, just maybe, they are shooting two very different focal lengths, but that's also silly.

I had a guest turn up with a 5D MK3 with a 70-200mm F2.8 L lens and bounce flash on it

Like this one :- ) He had an external battery pack as well! (look bottom right)

http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/939-c/images/035-Bisham-Abbey-wedding-photography-Marlow-Buckinghamshire.jpg

Pete

Dear o dear ... it's more common than I thought.

If I was the paid tog and he started snapping away I would ask him to jog the f*** on ... if not, i'd be having a word with the bride and groom.

Thank god I do video.

Even as the video guy, I still bring along my Nikon D90 and 70-200 F2.8 VR2 and 17-55 F2.8 and do try to snap some pictures during the day, to post to social media. Not a ton, but a few.

Back to the original posting - one of the guys I work with shot a wedding in Washington DC last week and there were 5 - FIVE! hired photographers taking pictures at.

He was telling me that there were 3 of them up near the front and on stage, always getting in his video shots.

I've seen up to 3 photographers before, but never five. Wow!

I had an photog a few years ago that had an assistant who carried around a Sony FS100! He told me he was doing a promo for the photog but then proceeded to film the wedding in great detail never once getting his intended subject in the shot but always the couple. It was blatantly obvious that he wanted a demo video for future brides. Luckily this was one instance where I had a second shooter so I carefully instructed her to block the guy whenever she could, which she did very well. Whenever he moved, she did the same so hopefully he got some poor shots.

I'm not a mean person but I don't like liars! If he had talked to me before the wedding and explained he was struggling to get into wedding video, I probably would have helped him rather than hinder him!!

I occasionally see a wedding guest with a DSLR and a honking great (what looks like) a 600mm tele lens..obviously to impress his mates no doubt ??? I still think I would rather have one enthusiastic amateur stepping into the aisle for shots than 20 guests all struggling to get a clear shot with their phones.

I'm still struggling with the concept of multiple photogs! Apart from crowding the Church why do you need so many or are they so poor that they need to backup each other. I wonder what the poor bride paid to have all those photogs??

Chris

Forgive me - I've posted this image before on this forum. I took it at a wedding where I was a guest. It seems pretty relevant to this thread as well.

Can anyone find the B&G, MOH, Best Man at at the head table lol?

Mike,

My favorite part of your photo is the female guest in the foreground trying her best to take a cell phone photo/video anyway.

Some of you guys need to let go of your security blankets. Grow up and let your own professional work hold it's own and not worry about the model number on a "guests camera".

If your that worried that you think you should tell a guest with a 5D MKlll that he should "move on" your probably not worth your rate. He might be the brother of the groom for all you know. Be a Professional, in the way you act and what you deliver.

Sorry children, I have never made a post this brutal before, but it is what I wanted to say!

Steve

Often it's hard to deliver professional results if you have uncles and aunts standing between your camera and the couple holding their iphone to shoot the same what you are shooting, just last wedding a aunt of the bride walks up to the table where the groom was giving his speech to film that with her iphone, right in front of my camera which was positioned a few meters further back on a spot where no guests view were blocked. I had to run to her telling she had to move and that incident made me miss a full 30 seconds of the openingsspeech, during that speech the bride had flowers as gift for her parents and bridesmaids which where delivered by the groom so I use a handheld camera to follow the groom, who is walking right in front of me following the groom to shoot the exact same thing? Right, the brides aunt! She again get's in my way because she is older and doesn't move that fast and when the groom walks up to the second person that get flowers I get tired of it and push the aunt gently aside as she was standing in the best spot. After that speech her aunt gives me a deadly look all the time but I don't care :)

I've booked a wedding next year where the father and brother of the bride run their own wedding film business and will be filming around me as I do my job! If they get in my so be it - my terms and conditions point out that I am not liable for any shots missed due to blockage from guests etc. They actually asked if I'd supply them with the raw footage but got a resounding NO!

Should be an interesting day

Pete

Some of you guys need to let go of your security blankets. Grow up and let your own professional work hold it's own and not worry about the model number on a "guests camera".

If your that worried that you think you should tell a guest with a 5D MKlll that he should "move on" your probably not worth your rate. He might be the brother of the groom for all you know. Be a Professional, in the way you act and what you deliver.

Sorry children, I have never made a post this brutal before, but it is what I wanted to say!

Steve

I take it you don't film weddings and stick to corporate stuff?

It has nothing to do with security blankets.

If your brother, uncle, aunt or whatever is planning on bringing a professional camera along and taking the same shots as the professional. DO NOT BOOK ME. I don't work like that. I expect to be told prior to booking that the guests will be bringing professional equipment too.

It's already a nightmare getting shots along with the iPhone brigade but now hobbyists think they're cute bringing their professional cameras too.

Get ready for a headache Pete.

I have a photog I work with that tries to convince brides to have an unplugged wedding ..ie: no cameras at the ceremony or reception but I'm not too sure how successful he has been. We have a few Churches who forbid guests to take any photos or videos at the ceremony which is great!!!

Pete I don't envy you ..they will be taking all the prime spots and there will be nothing you can do about it as blood is thicker than water!! Why are they filming anyway ..surely as family they either let you do it or they do it ... I had an enthusiastic amateur at a wedding last year with his 5DII shooting video and blocking both myself and the photogs. He said that he had permission to film and was the groom's best friend ..when we asked him if he was getting paid he said no so we both said "In that case, push off, we are getting paid ..go film somewhere else" He moved a bit but still was a pain.

You must let us know all your comments after the wedding Pete?? There is only one way to do this scenario ..either "worry like hell and struggle" or "couldn't care less" ...They will soon see themselves blocking shots and the daughter will not be happy ...I think I would explain that three's a crowd and there will be blocked shots and then take the "couldn't care less" option. I think a good idea here would be a GoPro high up on a stand to get the entire ceremony without being blocked.

Chris

Chris the reason I'm not too bothered is that it's a nice big spacious venue I've filmed in many times before. They are going to film some candid footage during the day but mainly they want to film the evening reception as I'm only staying until first dance and they really want later evening dancing filming but didn't want to pay the extra for me to stay.

I'll post my thoughts after the event ;)

Hi Steven,

As James mentioned, most of the time it has nothing to do with security blankets. Here's an image from a recent wedding I did - photog in the aisle, iPhone guest in the aisle to the right, iPhone guest in the aisle to the left, Bride and Dad in window in the middle.

I, for one, like the clutter most of the time. It lends excitement to the shot, drama, and energy. That's how it happened that day - everyone wanted a picture of the bride and she's the center of attention. She'll probably love seeing this. I don't know that for a fact, but I'm guessing. And there really isn't much I can do. I shoot as is.

But I also have to think, "oh crap if either of these ladies with the phones move I've just lost my shot" and "what if the B&G don't understand why I didn't get more of her walk up the aisle?". I've actually had that before and got a bad review from a bride solely based on the fact that I missed a little wave they did to their guests once the bride reached the altar. And the review came even after I explained in an email why I missed the shot - I was moving my main cam from the front of the aisle so I wouldn't be in the way, and my side cams weren't centered on the end of the aisle because those cams were focused on the area where the B&G were going to be standing once the actual ceremony begin. So the wave was out of shot for each camera.

So thoughts like this are always in the back of a lot of our minds while we're shooting. It's why we get a little agitated when camera-guests start moving around. I take it with a grain of salt - my style is to film as things happen spontaneously - but it can get under my skin from time to time because I want to do the best possible job, and get the best possible shots for my clients. That's being pro.

I take it you don't film weddings and stick to corporate stuff?

It has nothing to do with security blankets.

If your brother, uncle, aunt or whatever is planning on bringing a professional camera along and taking the same shots as the professional. DO NOT BOOK ME. I don't work like that. I expect to be told prior to booking that the guests will be bringing professional equipment too.

It's already a nightmare getting shots along with the iPhone brigade but now hobbyists think they're cute bringing their professional cameras too.

James, this is not aimed at you, just a general response with my own thoughts that not everyone will agree with, and that's OK.

Professionals need to hold their own with what ever gear you have and not worry about what anyone else is using. It's the shots you get not the gear you use, at least that's the theory ;)

Consumer gear is getting better all the time and the difference between pro and consumer is becoming more and more blurred. Example, lots of consumer cameras can shoot 50p but my C100 can't. Which is better, especially for slo-mo?

Would it be better to have someone with a 1Dx or D4 that was courteous and considerate or someone with an iPad that was constantly getting in the way? It's not the gear, is the person using it.

If they aren't in my shot, or dragging the attention away from my camera I don't care. If they take the same shot over my shoulder, so be it. They could do that with a P&S or an iPad and still get a great shot if they know how to use it properly.

They could also have it on YouTube / Facebook etc before the B&G even sit down to eat and there's absolutely nothing I can do about that, so I just get on with what I'm being paid to do and no worry about what other people are doing.

For sure it can lessen the impact of my shots if the B&G have already seen something similar, but then there's more to it than just getting the shot, it's about how you edit / grade etc and how the entire thing comes together. If a guest has a couple of great shots then good luck to them, but in the end they won't have the overall production that we have.

If they step out in to the isle while the bride walks down, hey, it happened, and guess what, I have the proof right there on the video and what was I supposed to do? Taser them?

I've always told my clients that I can't control what their guests do, so they have the option of asking them to stay out of the way or accept that occasionally (more and more) our shot gets blocked because Vicar won't allow us to move around in the same way guests can. It's also covered in the contract.

Would we all prefer to shoot weddings where the family & friends don't bring cameras, phones, iPads etc? Of course! But I'd like to drive on open roads instead of being in traffic, and be able to park right where I want to.

It's how life is now and it's only going to get worse, so learn to deal with it or find something else to excite you :)

With all due respect to Steven.... it's NOT the model # of the camera that is an issue, it's the number of cameras or camera equipped devices that is the issue...

ANYONE can buy a "fancy" pro camera, no laws against that, but it does NOT make them a "pro"... conversely a "pro" can shoot with a cheap camera and know how to get stunning results (anyone recall some pro stuff shot on a "Brownie"?).

I think the cell/tablet cameras are far worse, since now EVERYONE and their dog has one, and so feels obligated to "document" their lives in pictures/video, probably at least secretly in hopes of catching the next viral sensation...

Of course it does not help to be shooting any "event" while competing with a scrum of paparazzi wannabes competing for "the shot", regardless of what they are shooting with.


Image quality of even "cheap" devices is only getting better, but actually getting usable shots... nailing framing, composition, lighting, those things will always be an art/craft... and NOTHING will give a camera equipped dog "the eye" for the shot...

Gentleman, I have “corresponded” with many of you for quite some time on this forum. Am I opinionated, yes, but I play by the rules and generally am not condescending. The tone of my last post was out of character for me but I meant what I said.

For James to say that if a guest is going to show up with professional level equipment they better not book him is ridiculous to me. I cannot sugar coat my words about what I think of that kind of attitude enough to be appropriate here.

I agree with what Dave P. and Dave B. said. The stuff is out there in all kinds of formats and the people shooting with them come in many different models too. It IS part your wedding shooters world. No, I don’t do weddings. But I am in no way exempt from it either. In over twenty five years of shooting I have covered everything from international sporting events, to broadcast television shows, to corporate meetings and interviews. I know a little bit about being a working professional. Being a professional videographer means we must deal with the enthusiast aspect of image making. What does Aunt Betty and Uncle Bob want? They want to take a picture of their own of someone they are there to honor on their wedding day. Big Deal! My abrasive post was sparked because I read almost everything you guys write. I respect what you do. But here is the caveat, quite honestly some of you guys have tone of your own that makes it sound as though Uncle Bob is Darth Vader walking in and his 5D is a light saber he brought to destroy you with. Uncle Bob is not your enemy and Aunt Betty’s I-phone can’t hurt you either unless your work sucks. That is the real underlying issue for “some” of you guys. When you’re worried about their “pro level gear” you’re really worried that they are going to show you up. Be a professional and do your job. They are not your enemy. In fact, what do many of them want from you? They want to pick your brain and talk about gear most of the time. You are the guy earning money doing what the enthusiast loves to do. They want to talk to you, not hurt you. Get over this ridiculous idea that “I better be the only one there with pro level gear”. Seriously? Really? How you could possibly even think that is beyond me. And, if you are a pro, you should be able to shoot better with an i-pad than Uncle Bob and his 5D anyway.

Steve

I can't say other people filming really bothers me. I had a Wedding recently, where 2 guys had a handycam; filming the Ceremony and Speeches amongst other things. They never got in my shots and were no trouble at all. You've got to wonder about the point of filming Speeches when I'm doing it, but given they're holding a handycam up by hand, set on wide, whilst I've got 3 cameras, 1 on wide, 1 on the Bride and Groom and 1 on the person speaking, proper audio and all carefully edited for maximum impact, their footage is only going to make the Bride and Groom see the value in what I'm doing, not detract from it.
It's easy for a guest to take some great random photos of the day, but for a guest to do really great video, there's more to it. Great editing for one thing. I have a Guestcam service; the footage I get is a different take on the day, a compliment to my video; but hardly a replacement.
Really if any Guest wants to take it upon themselves to film the Wedding Day to the standards I set myself, they must be bloody mad; I'm getting paid for it and even I think I'm mad trying to cram in as much as I do.

theres a lot of interesting points in these posts, I suppose people can feel a bit under threat if someone who hasn't been hired arrives on with superior equipment than them, this could apply to various aspects of the event not just imaging!
I did a wedding recently where from the back of the venue, i saw was a young girl holding aloft a ten inch tablet among the sea of iphones, pads phones and various screens etc. which seemed to catch my attention more than the others.
So I zoomed into it a bit and rack focused between the screen and the couple which created a different. effect, so i was using the environment i found myself in rather than fighting it.

But if people walk in front of your camera(s) - the client should be advised that this is a possibility prior to the event, and is more than often outside your control.

Steven Steven Steven ...

PLEASE GO AND FILM A WEDDING.

We get ONE TAKE and that's it.

Mike pointed it out nicely. I don't want to come back to the office, offload the data on to my computer, start editing to find critical moments RUINED by an enthusiast at the wedding.

Why? Because it ruins my highlight reel, the actual film and last but not least, I have to go out of my way to now explain to the bride if she complains (she might say why didn't I get a better position instead of standing where I was).

Why should I have to have that headache? As a guest, come discreetly. Your iphone or handycam is just about tolerable. But whipping out a 5D MK3 with all the extras on top is simply rude and obstructive. I'm not talking about being intimidated by gear, i'm talking about them ruining my shots that i've been paid to deliver.

I feel your pain - I have been there, and it's one of several reasons why I don't usually do weddings now. But...

I don't really see why it matters whether the idiot who blocks your shot has an iPhone or an Arri, the result is the same. I find tablets to most intrusive at events, especially the ones in a cover which hangs down doubling the area of blockage.

Perhaps we should be rethinking this as the problem is only going to get worse at weddings and other events as almost everybody brings their camera or whatever. People blocking your shot are a pain in the backside, but regrettably nowadays that is something that we need to take into account when planning how the wedding or whatever is going to be covered.

In broadcast event coverage even though there is more control and predictability, camera positions are chosen so that the shots won't be blocked by unexpected actions of participants, (though it can still happen) and perhaps we need to think along the same lines and not be taken unawares by the unthinking amateurs who are trying to get their own photos and (often vertical :-) ) videos.

What could we do? Instead of being surprised that critical shots are blocked, expect that this may well happen and plan to do our best make make sure they are not. Get some Blu-Tack and stick a GoPro 8 feet up the wall if you can't guarantee a clear shot any other way. Jibs and cranes are expensive and inconvenient, monopods to hold a camera above the crowd are not, neither are robust chairs or portable mini steps. How many people think of getting a lower angle and letting the scrum shoot above us? Forum members here have mentioned using cameras on light stands and high tripods to avoid the total blocked shot situation, but the main thing to do is to expect the worst and not just be trying to compete literally on the same level as the unintentional saboteurs. Very hard when it is a single crew operation, slightly easier when there are two.

I think that the days when guests deferred to hired videographers (if they ever did) may well be past (photographers still usually get away with it because they tend to dominate the proceedings) and we have to learn to deal with it, but I honestly think the the majority of "shotblockers" have very little awareness of the problem they are causing whatever equipment they happen to be using. They just don't get it, and if were are not careful neither will we.

Hired photographers who block our shots are another matter, adequately discussed on other threads.

A truly excellent notion Colin!

In fact there are many, many times where I have had to resort to using my GoPro footage to clear not only the multitude of guests (yes with tablets too and a full size iPad blocks a shot even more than a phone) but also over enthusiastic pro photographers. Sadly there are not many considerate photog left either as you find that the average wedding photographer now consists of 3 or 4 young guys (in our area South East Asians seem to favour the profession) whose sole purpose is to get as close to the bride as they can with as wide as possible lens.

I did a marathon run for an ad agency a few weeks ago and at the finish line was what I can only call a cunning photog! He had built a mini tower from aluminium so all his still and video cameras were 8' to 10' above the road and of course every shot he got was a clear one as all the others were under him. I liked his approach PLUS he never blocked anyone so he was the good guy.

Chris

James,
We will probably never agree on this at all and that’s ok. I am not trying to sway your opinion; I am just stating my disagreement. You and I have contributed a lot on this forum so hopefully you know I am not usually cantankerous.

First let me say I don’t shoot weddings because you guys deal with issues that do make things hard for you. I am not discounting the problems. I have nothing but respect for guys that earn their living shooting weddings. I don’t need to go shoot one to understand the difficulties involved in the process. I only post in your wedding threads when I can contribute in a positive way. In this case I DID get on a soap box.

As far as dealing with the still photographer problems and the advanced amateur that breaks out his pro gear issue I have said many times before a big part of solving that is talk to them before the problem occurs! I know for a fact some of you treat them all like adversaries from the start. You say it here. I cover sports, corporate events, and interviews. I am not exempt or ignorant about the issues you face. I talk to every other shooter of any type as a friendly professional before the problems start. I establish the rules before the game starts. Then if they want to play hard ball, the fight is on!

The post Colin made above is exactly what we do in my world. Whenever possible we set up so the problems don’t even occur. He is spot on.

Here are a couple of common scenarios I deal with all the time:
Sporting event coverage: Along with covering the action there is always a few mandatory shots all of us MUST get. The victor raising the trophy over his head for example. If it says ESPN (or whatever the live broadcaster is) on the back of your photo jersey then you are top dog and you have no problems. For the other fifty of us it is a dog eat dog 15 seconds. Still guys will jump in front of my tripod mounted camera or some guys will pull outright stupid stunts at the last second. Elbows and tempers can fly. Jobs are on the line, if you miss the shot you don’t get the job again. And everything is always not as it appears. In those barricaded areas just for credentialed media you might get your shot blocked by a beautiful 35 year old woman with an i-pad (I’ve seen it happen) so you open your mouth and tell her in no uncertain terms that she is not press and she better stay the hell out of the way. The credentialed shooter that swore at her was the one that got an escort out of the media area. She was the trophy wife of a guy who wrote a 15 million dollar check to be a title event sponsor. It is quite common for VIP guests to get a media credential so they can have the same access I have. The problem is they don’t know the rules. So yes, I know a little bit about shot blocking.

This happens all the time too. I also do a lot of interviews of renowned physicians, corporate executives and other people with substantial incomes. After the shoot it is common for them to say “I like to shoot too, can ask you some questions about my camera?”. Of course I gladly oblige, they pull out a LowePro camera bag and guess what’s in it? These days it is a Canon 5D XXX. It is used to shoot their kids birthday parties and vacation pictures. Why? Because they can. That is the true market for that camera. It is not a professional body. It is made for the serious hobbyist. They are all over the place. It is the DSLR fanboys that have elevated the 5D to a professional status. Canon has the cinema line for professionals that are serious about that type of camera style. So I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. Again, I am not knocking anyone’s choice of gear. You see someone with a 5D at your wedding and assume they are some kind of pro or going to be a problem. It is just a camera. They may not even be able to shoot well with it. For you to say they are rude to bring it is laughable to me. That is why I said get over it and do your job. As a professional you can’t worry about what other people are shooting. It is your gig. Do your job, do it well, and no one else can be a problem unless they get in your way.

Steve

Hey Steve

I'm on your side on this too. A wedding is often an easy task compared to some commercial shoots. Besides quite often you can cheat some wedding shots ? Rings shots? I used to do dummy rings shots on a regular basis when I did stills ...much easier.

Sorry James but you obviously haven't done shoots where National media are involved!! I have done a couple for electric vehicles in our city and involving the Lord Mayor on camera ... You are happily shooting her (yep our's is a lady) getting in and out the car and then giving a little speech when the big boys arrive...they bump, push and jostle with each other to get a shot and you are trampled in the process.

You would be happy (in fact overjoyed) to have a few guests block you at a wedding after that!!

Chris