Hey everyone,

I've been following the forums here for a while now and now needed advice. I'm going to shoot a concert in the next couple weeks and wanted to get some advice on my plan.

As I don't currently own a camera, I have decided to rent for this concert my church is putting on. I am doing this event for free, and therefore all the rental charges come straight out of pocket. I am recording this for free as I have yet to turn videography into a profitable business for myself. I intend to rent 2 Canon XA10s with adequate batteries as well as a Canon 50mm f/1.4 EF lens to pair with a borrowed T3i (which I will rent batteries for as well). The plan is to shoot with one XA10 on a tripod at the back of the room to get a wide shot of the stage, have my assistant take video handheld with the XA10, and I would use the T3i to get some fancy DOF shots. I already have a follow focus rig that I intend to use with the T3i and have used with it before extensively.

So my first question is what microphone should I get for shooting a concert? I assume the locked down cam would record the best audio since it would be consistent in quality and would be the closest to what the crowd/audience hears. What I am most unsure of is if I should get a shotgun mic or a large diaphragm condenser mic. What type of mic should I get? What will pick up the most natural sound from the event?

Secondly, will my current plan adequately cover the event so I can create not only a highlight video, but also an entertaining full length edit of the event? Is there a way I can spread the three cameras to get a more coverage? Should I not offer a full length edit of the event?

Next, is the Canon 50mm long enough to cover an event like this from multiple different angles or should I get a 135mm? I was thinking about a zoom, but I can't really afford to rent one with constant aperature which would be absolutely necessary considering the lighting conditions. What do you think?

The last thing I wanted to know is how much should I try to give them? I wanted to do a full length and a highlight video at least, and maybe a promo for this event next year (it is annual concert). Is that too much work to do for free (in my spare time)?

I have never shot anything like this, focusing mostly on short films/music videos in the past but I really wanted to transition into live event video and though this would be a great event to start with (since they didn't have any plan on video taping the event this year anyway).

I'd love to get some opinions on all this and I appreciate everyone who read this wall of text.

Oh and here is the video they had someone "official" shoot and edit last year. Not exactly sure why the aspect ratio got screwed up, but it did. Sounds of Christmas Promo - YouTube

- Matthias Claflin

Not going to get into all your questions, there are better stage shooters here than me, but some thoughts...

Why the XA10s? Not my first choice. What are the other options?
The 50mm is unlikely to be much good unless you are onstage with them. 70-200 mm is the choice if you are using a DSLR IMHO.

If it's going to be as loud as last years, take a mixing board feed through line in to your recorder (you do have one with a line in right?) and just use the mics on the cameras for syncing. I once shot in about 120 decibels of pure rock noise (with ear protection on) and my board feed saved me and made the band sound like they were much better than they were. You might not like the sound here, but believe me, it was painful to listen to without earplugs and totally distorted my best efforts to reign it in on camera. (Cafe Com Leite - YouTube).

The DSLRs are going to need a lot of SD cards to cover a full couple of hours. Plan accordingly. I rarely use DSLRs for stage. Camcorders work just fine. You don't need much DOF shots on stage. Your camcorders can usually do the job.

These days I like to work with one camera fully locked down. I used to work freestanding, but don't like the look. Here's an early video shot with a single camera on shoulder mount. I did manage to record sound from my shotgun on the camera and it was ok. While I would never shoot like this today, it's too shaky, I think the energy level came across fine. The zooms could not have been done as well as they were with a DSLR, though I had only owned the camera about one month. It worked great though. I just needed a monopod. You don't have to watch it all but it does give you some ideas of a variety of shots you might encounter.
Wintergrass 2010 Band Sampler - YouTube

Lately, I've been shooting with two xf300s locked down from two angles. Here's an example,with sound off the board. It's one of my better ones I think without having full access to the stage. These are long telephoto lenses so I don't need to be on top of the action. Only think I might have added is a third cameraman with a telephoto and a Dslr from stage right or left. I would have liked one or two real tight face shots.
Tim O'Brien - Voice Works 2012 - Working On a Building on Vimeo

So think about getting tripods for all cameras, and use one without, or use the tripod as a monopod.

The short highlight might be worth doing for free, but a multicamera hour long presentation is not worth giving away. When there is no budget (or I love the band and want to give them free publicity) I might offer up just a lock down from the back, long view, no tight shots, just a document of the concert. You can see those kinds on my Vimeo and Youtube pages.

Also you have to consider your audience. You don't want to be blocking their views, making them regret having paid money to see a show with a cameraman dancing around in front of them. I try to stay low, in back or on the sides.

Hope this helps. many of us start with jobs like these. Just don't give away the farm, and consider it a portfolio builder. Good luck.

Definitely looking at this as a portfolio builder.

Anyway. I wanted to use XA10s because they are cheap to rent and I have to pay everything out of pocket. I typically rent from ATS Rentals (http://atsrentals.com). I have had very pleasant experiences with them in the past. That being said, the cheapest camcorder they offer with XLR ports was the XA10. Also I intend on buying an XA10 in the future, but would love to try it out first. That being said I have lots of experience on the HF G10 (younger sibling to the XA10) and thought it would be a smooth transition from one to the other. That being said I can't really afford much else for camcorders but I would love to know why you wouldn't want to use an XA10, and what to look for in a camera for this type of work?

As far as audio goes, I intended to record directly to one of the cameras via the XLR jack, as opposed to using a seperate audio recorder. (I still need to touch base with the sound guy who will be at the event, they may be recording a high quality version of the event that I could get my hands on).

After watching your videos, I would agree, I definitely want all cameras to be locked down, so maybe I'll rent/buy a cheap monopod to shoot with. Anyway, thanks for the response!

Matthias,

Al gave you very good advice. Handing a camcorder to an "assistant" and expecting him to get you usable footage is a bad idea unless he is experienced and talented at it.

There is a ton of information in the audio section about what you need to know.

You have too many maybe's. Know what you are going to do before you start the gig. Then let the other parties know what you are doing and what you are NOT doing.

A full length record sounds useless here? If no one wanted it in the first place why bite off an elephant for your learning experience? If you tell them your going to do that someone will suddenly say, "he promised us he would do it". Then they will claim they have to have it or it will ruin their future if you don't produce it. That is a commitment!

Don't wait until the day of the gig to let the talent know you are going to record, get permission FIRST. Even small time performers can become instant divas when a camera shows up.

Everything you need to know is here on this forum.

Good luck. These type of gigs can be fun and they are fantastic learning experiences. Communicate well with everyone involved so you don't learn things the hard way.

Steve

One more thing. Only use batteries when you have to. Run off of AC power at all other times.

Hey Steven,

Thanks for your reply. I think I have changed my mind aobut utilizing an assistant. As helpful as it would be, I think I'll just shoot with two cams to make things cheaper/easier on me.

I haven't discussed any of what I will be providing with the owner/operator of the venue yet. I just secured myself permission to film. I plan on going over, in more detail, the plan for the night, this weekend, but wanted to get ideas/criticism from here first. So thank you for that. I think my best bet is just offering a highlights video that they can use to promote the concert next year.

The talent does know that I will be filming (or at least the "leader" of the band knows.) Do I need to get some kind of audio/visual release form from the band members? I figured I would, as I normally do this for all my projects.

I appreciate all the feedback you all have provided thus far, and will definitely be taking a closer look into past threads on this topic for more info. Thanks!

- Matthias

WELL, at least the bar was set pretty low... aspect ratio, interlace artifacts, distorted sound... ouch...

I'd FORGET the SLR entirely, unless you've got a zoom and want to run around a lot...

One camera locked off WIDE, high (you'll want a TALL tripod to avoid lots of "back of head shots") and centered. Second camera (and preferably a third) working close ups and cutaways - likely NOT on a monopod - you want stable footage. Having the second cam at a different angle gives a better production feel, but then it NEEDS to be manned, and you have to trust the operator...

I use a multi cam adapter I made in house to set up three cams (left side of stage, right side of stage, and center/zoom/ closeups) for a wide stage, plus a fourth on a clamp pod for the wide. It's been an "OK" solution, though not ideal.

IF you can have a "wandering" third cam with an operator you trust who can "work the stage" properly without getting in the way, those can be good angles to have... note all the caveats...

I think you CAN get by with two cameras, three would be better. You'll have a better time in post if they match, but...

Audio, forget trying to get a "house"/ambient "mix" - depending on the venue, the sound guy, and the volume, you'll get bad to horrible sound most likely. OTOH, for an event this size, there should be a "house mix" that you DEFINITLEY need to get a copy of - maybe mix "ambient" with it, but DON'T rely on ambient being worth bothering in a rented venue with live sound mixing... I was initially hoping this was in a building that had been sound engineered for a large church, then you said rent.... ugh... Ambient is tough in a building properly sound engineered with a proper sound system... it's well nigh to impossible in most "rented venues"...

The one concern I'd have is with light conditions - I shoot small Sonys myself, so I'm confident that small camcorders at the high end of the consumer range (IIRC, that's an XA10 if you speak Canon) can pull this off, but be aware that you'll need to be on your toes (thus why you probably shouldn't be messing with an SLR TOO...).

Hey Dave,

I agree. The bar was indeed set very low. When they played that video at our church to "hype" the event, I couldn't help but cringe while watching it.

I think I will drop the DSLR as I can't afford to rent a zoom and at the end of the day, I am doing this for free, so it would be better for me to focus on what I know I can do (with two cams) as opposed to trying to complicate things with three. It doesn't seem realistic to try and shoot this with any kind of assistant or trying to manage three cameras.

You say "likely NOT on a monopod", why not? My idea aobut a monopod is that it would allow me to get a variety of different shots from different angles, allow me to be completely mobile, while also keeping the camera more stable than handheld. Would it be better to just man a locked down cam on a tripod?

Also I will be in touch with the sound guy this weekend. I will see what cables I will need to get a line from the board. I'm sure they will accomadate such a request.

As far as lighting goes, they will be doing a full "rehearsal" of sorts before the concert (the day before) including doing all lights as if it was show time, which I will be at, with my camera, testing out different shots with different settings, hopefully making it easier for me to figure out what I settings will be necessary for that night.

A rehearsal should be VERY helpful to iron out the kinks! That and a little advance footwork, and it should go well!

As far as using a monopod... well, even if you're stable with one (I tend to wobble... thank goodness for image stabilization), you still have to be supporting it. I've got monopods myself, and they have a place (love the Bogens with tiny feet!), but it's a place between "handheld" and a stout tripod, with good and bad points.

Monopods give portability, and you can use them sort of like a steadycam with practice, but it's not easy to get constant footage if and when you're moving. Still better than handheld for a long form event, but...

If you need to tend to your "main" camera because "stuff happens", that #2 camera on a monopod will not only not cover you, but will present a problem while you figure out where to park it... For a #3 or 4 "roaming" camera when you KNOW you'll have a solid "safety" (and preferably a backup as well) to cut to, sure, but it's risky for a 2 camera shoot to have the "backup" not be capable of being locked down for at least a little while should the need arise.

FWIW, I probably am a bit paranoid about redundancy and planning, but that comes from doing "live" events on the audio and video side - it's amazing how many "strange" things happen, even when you plan ahead!

Dave is right on, as usual. I use good tripods. If I need to be light and fast with a camcorder I sometimes skip the big heavy video sticks and run around with the camera on a bare bones Bogen made for still cameras. Small, light cameras like the XA10 do not have enough heft for me to be steady with them unsupported. I have used monopods too. Never to my total satisfaction.

I used to shoot with a lot of Canon cameras. Not all of them were selectable between line/mic. Is the XA10? As Al said, use line and a sub mix if you can. If it will not take a line feed, at the least you will need a DI box to knock it back to mic.

The rehearsal is going to save you big time. Don't just monitor it a lot, roll footage you can look at and listen to afterwords. It sounds silly but I can't tell you how many experienced operators set up before a show and don't actually do a test record and say they are ready. Not on my gigs!

Concert audio is hard to monitor for quality because of the db level in the venue. You might pick up a hum and not be able to hear it live. Be careful. There is so much that needs to be done correctly to record a gig like this. They get messed up by a lot of guys. Wish I could be more helpful because you sound sincere about advice but I can only help a little in a couple of paragraphs.

Rule number one: Don't clip the audio.
Rule number one: Don't clip the video.
Rule number two: This is a classic fail for many "auto functions".
Rule number three: Have fun.

One of your most useful cover shots will be to shoot from the edge of the stage back towards the audience. Concert audiences love it when you point a camera at them, even christian ones :) Shoot a lot of this because when you go to post you can insert it anywhere, anytime, with no sync issues. The footage can be from a different song and no one will know. It can save you.

Steve

I can't chirp in with much useful because so much depends on what the concert actually consists of. A locked off camera with a stereo microphone could be best IF the sound at that location is good. Only your ears will tell you that. If it's a mix of live and amplified sound then it could sound very odd. Don't forget that you may have a good sound op or a poor one and worst of all, the mix will be set to give a good balance. If there are loud instruments then the pa May have none of those in the mix, just the things that need to be made louder. So a mix of camera sound and desk audio is safer and you can adjust the blend when you edit. The real killer for me with this kind of thing is wobbly images. Look how it can go wrong
surfin usa on Vimeo
My band - I had three cameras from a video job in the van, so I gave cameras to one girlfriend, one wife and a venue tech. None had used cameras before. I told them keep on wide and instead of zooming go in closer. I told one to do a wide shot and not change the zoom and to steady the camera on anything solid. Sound came from the desk. As all the cameras moved, including the one I'd told not to, the audio varied so much that I couldn't use much of it. You can hear the sound mix is wrong in places. View this, spot the errors and don't copy them!

So after reading/pondering all this advice I have decided that I'll rent a seond tripod for the second camera (instead of a monopod), and use my tripod for the main camera. The main camera will shoot a wide shot, in theory encompassing the entire stage, and I will man the second camera to get more specific shots and a different angle. I plan on only making a highlight video/promo video for next years event. I don't plan to offer them a long form edit at all, just in case I do miss something important, I don't want all that stress the first time I try a gig like this, especially when I'm doing it for free. However I plan to shoot as if I were going to create a long form edit that way I can get the practice and experience for next time.

As for audio my plan, as of now, is to shoot with a line in from the board, (according to this schematic (http://kbsupport.cusa.canon.com/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1011&PARTITION_ID=1&secureFlag=false&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=38756) there is a "line" switch on the xlr inputs), this would record to one side of a stereo channel, while I shoot the other side of the stereo channel with my shotgun mic. Then in post I can seperate them and mix as necessary or remove one altogether if it is awful. Is this a bad idea?

As mentioned above, I think I will shoot everyting while my cameras are plugged into power to avoid any battery issues.

I also have every intention of going to the rehearsal and shooting multiple different angles, and settings to see where I want the camera to be and what settings work best for the venue. The XA10, if anything like the HF G10, has full manual control over aperture, ISO, and shutter speed, so I will get to play with a mix of those to see what gives me the cleanest image. I plan to shoot in a neutral color mode and boost saturation/color correct in post.

Due to financial restrictions I am incapable of renting a third camera, unless I borrow the church's DSLR, which I think would overcomplicate things as suggested above. I think that a mix of the live performance and various shots before/after with the band/audience, I can get a neat little highlight video.

Onto the more business side of things... Should I put together a shot list for an event like this? Should I put together a service agreement to protect myself, and ensure rights to use this footage to promote myself in the future? And do I need photo/video/audio release forms from all who are in the video?

Good ideas from all the respondees, and your last post has good decisionmaking. Lower the risk and expectations, and just have fun in a learning experience. having both cameras locked down is always better.

If you have time at rehearsal, yes do a shot list. If you have an assistant (i.e. friend or partner) then have them do it. A good task for a novice wanting to 'learn the ropes'. You'll be busy.

Running two cameras alone is fraught with problems, though it's doable. I've had a zoom mysteriously zoom in while I was across the hall shooting from the B cam. I think it was a defective remote control zoom handle, but I wasn't around to watch it.

BE SURE you set your record levels to -10 to -15 on for the peaks. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to blow out your limits. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then go to the audio section of this and readup on setting levels right. It's really important! Some even recommend -20 to run things at. I find that too low for my tastes. But I try to *rarely* go above -10 in situations like this. Getting close to 0DB is asking for trouble. You can almost always boost sound and save it, but you cannot recover blown sound to any real degree.

If you are doing everything for free, you don't need any kind of permission to use stuff from the church. you are donating your footage to them. If you need to do anything, simply tell them that in an email.

As to model releases, boy it's always better to get them, but the performers likely are wanting you to promote them, right? If you are simply going to do something to promote the church and the performers, you likely won't need it. I've never needed to for the freebies I've done, including the ones you see below. One I was 'hired by the band" the next two I was doing PR work for the organization, and their contracts stipulated they could shoot limited video for PR purposes.

Do it if it makes you feel better, but you likely won't need them unless you actually sell the work in some way.

Have fun and write if you find work...

@ Paul -
Still better than the OP's "gotta do better'n this" footage... all that while having wife AND girlfriend shooting <wink>.

@ Matthias -
As far as audio, keep in mind that depending on the size of the room, you can have a lot of strange audio delays and phasing. When you get to mixing, pick ONE audio source to use, and then add additional sources only if you need to - trying to sync multiple audio can be a nightmare. Honestly, depending on the room, there are times when the on camera mics might be better than you expect... I would hope that from the video you posted that all the instruments will be mic'd/mixed rather than roaring stacks/cabs in the mix - that bodes well for the house mix being pretty decent - maybe have the sound guy recording during the rehearsal to check it out?

You can always shoot for a short promo clip, and then if it works out well, do a long form. Work from the set list, use a shot list as a tickler if there are specific things that would be good closeups, otherwise wing it...

One thing you haven't mentioned is copyright issues, probably better just to whistle on through that potential graveyard - if you want to explore that side of the issues with an event shoot, well, there's lots of old threads here...

You do need 1 or 2 locked off cams on solid tripods for sure - and positioned where inattentive audience members cannot jossle them - but I disagree with the others over the use of a monopod. It could add greatly to the interest value. You don't need to hold it steady for more than a few seconds per clip as people do expect rapid cuts between angles in music vids.

But what can really make a difference I have found is the video stabilising software Mercalli V3. I've just used it for the first time on about 150 short clips. Its remarkable.

V3 is standalone n.b. you don't buy this version to integrate into your NLE. It can batch process which means that you can simply load up all your clips and walk away while it analyses and outputs them ready for use. And a real timesaver is that it can auto-analyse and identify whether there are intentional pans and zooms mid-clip and act accordingly. You do have full manual control as well if you want it.

The MP4 output files are about 4x larger than my original AVCHD files but I can live with that. I had expected them to play very smoothly in my NLE which is Vegas Pro 12 (770); I imagined that they would be like files transcoded from AVCHD but in fact they play choppy when editing. They do play properly in VLC Media Player though. Must be down to their size. You can examine their characteristics using the free MediaInfo software. So if you are doing a multi-cam edit you may want to use your originals when actually editing then swap in the stabilized versions afterwards.

It won't get around compositional errors like cutting off the tops of players heads (sorry Paul!) but it does make hand held very usable.

As for the audio. Lots of potential for a nightmare as others have explained. Try to monitor it at stages during the performance rather than just setting up at the start and hoping for the best. Often at amateur events the sound board operators well-meaning talk is far stronger than his walk :- (

Pete

For audio if you record to the camera a feed from the audio mixer to one channel and from the camcorder mic the other channel they will almost certainly be out of sync, just enough to echo on a simple mix and will need to me moved in to sync in Vegas or an audio program. Vegas is the best for this re syncing as it can slide, squeeze and stretch the audio channels for sync. The reason they will be out of sync is just the simple speed of sound in air or down a cable through the delays in a mixer !!

Ron Evans

Then there's the option of going to a community college or other video/film training facility for a year or so.

Hey everyone,

Thanks for all the advice. I do plan on recording audio from the sound board as well as from the camera on the night of the rehearsal, just as if it was the night of the event. I didn't think about a delay in audio, but it would make sense that this would happen. I'll be editing in Adobe Premiere and Audition so I don't think syncing will be an issue. Been there, done that before.

For this event, I think I will simply use two tripods. I may try a monopod on another day, but for this event, I think it would be best to keep it as simple as possible.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Time delay is something you don't think of until you sync up several cameras/clips "perfectly" by audio peaks, then realize that the video is ever so slightly "off" from one cam to the next!

I've found when shooting multicam I'll sync to the peaks/audio, THEN I'll look for a visual "cue" - a movement, a flash, something you can see in all your video "channels", and fine tune the sync to THAT. Of course you then either have to re-sync and nudge the audio, or I've found I just pick the best track and use that one if at all possible, mixing other tracks (and of course re-syncing audio) as needed. Don't forget to make sure the track you pick is matched to any close ups, so you don't make a Japanese monster movie!

Usually, you're only talking "milliseconds", but it's surprising if you aren't thinking in terms of how long it takes time for sound to travel from point A to point B vs. Point A to Point C... the VISUAL cues should be effectively instantaneous, since light moves faster than sound (lighting and thunder!). We'll ignore that there can be a little offset between several cameras shooting at 60 frames per second that are recording at different milliseconds of that second... but if you sometimes can't quite seem to get video PERFECT, there ya go!

Add to this any "acoustical quirks" of a given room/venue and audio can be quite the fun handful!

NLE's will frame sync the video so getting the video in sync between cameras is less of a problem. Audio is different altogether and for me takes a lot of time to sort out for the theatre shows. Picking the best sound source for any particular scene and then making sure it is in sync with the video as the sound source can be either from a camera or a mic closer to the stage or from a mixing board that has other delays. I rough sync to audio then in Edius ( my main editor ) move into multicam so I can see all the cameras in the same preview monitor and nudge them into video sync. Audio, even channel 1 and 2 off the same camera if from different sources can be out over a frame. Both may be late if shot from the back of a large hall. I usually then edit audio in Vegas ( slide, stretch or squeeze into sync) and Sound Forge and then return with the mixed audio to finish edit in Edius. I edit with VA tracks so that I can do a rough check to see that sync is consistently "in sync" with the source closeup camera audio as lip sync is the most disturbing to be off.

Ron Evans

Ron annd Dave thanks for that
I use edius 6.52 and plural eyes to sync multi cams. Usually everything goes well but once in a while they just won't sync and now you've giver me better insight as to why

Just got back from the rehearsal and had some audio problems that I didn't expect.

I found out a friend of mine is big on audio recording, been doing it for years, and he volunteered to help me record the concert. He recommended a couple pencil condensor microphones, so I picked some up. MXL 991 and MXL 441. The two have identical specs. We shot with those two plugged directly into the Canon XA10, and adjusted levels accordingly. What resulted was a lot of what sounds like clipping, even though it is at -6db. I'm not sure what I did wrong. The built in attenuators were not on.

audio problem - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qhrtaO77N4&feature=youtu.be)

Everything sounds perfect to me up till about 10 seconds in, then the music builds and as it gets louder, the mics get cut off. Can anyone explain why this happened?

PS the venue records the event to a USB via their own microphones. My friend suggested postioning ours in a similar place to the others, so they were literally inches away. Would this have effected them?

Those are very inexpensive mics. This is a guess without seeing your setup but it sounds to me like distortion coming in from sound outside the pickup pattern. Was there a wall or hard surface behind the mic placement? All of that amplified sound bouncing around can cause sound to come from behind the pickup pattern and distort regardless of your level.

You have two cameras. Put one of them on auto and use the on camera mic. That is not something I would normally recommend. I am suggesting it only to give you an insurance track in case you don’t get a good record for the show. Are you monitoring with good headphones? You should be able to hear that kind of distortion unless you are right next to the PA.

If you still have time post this in the audio section. There are guys there far better than me.

Steve

Where exactly were they placed? They won't be affected by other devices and although to expensive, they're actually pretty good. The noise is at the bass end - was the bass in the room excessive? It sounds to me like you were recording the PA and the subs just kicked in, and your gain was either preset too high, or the volume was simply too high for auto gain? The mics are also showing a very odd polar pattern in the specs, almost omni, rather than cardioid which is a bit odd?

I suspect a PA with mega sub content, and just a bit of overcooking in the gain dept. recording already amplified music is always a compromise - get the audio from the desk!

Can't be 100% certain, but I "think" I heard two distinct problems happening? Keep in mind this was a short clip, and at first I wasn't sure WHAT could be happening!

There was what sounded like some sort of signal type interference like I'd expect from a wireless that was getting "stomped" by a secondary signal source close to the frequency - that was between :20 and :22... Were you using wireless, or were your cable runs long and near other potential sources of interference (I've seen fluorescents and bad A/C runs cause havoc, as well as nearby radio signals).

The rest sounded like "something" in the signal chain was clipping a bit - could be the mics, could be the gain settings, could be the cameras preamps/compressors. Not as bad as problem #1, but noticeable if you have been in audio...

I concur on the idea of running one camera with onboard mics and letting it "auto" the best it can - it still may clip, but as long as everyone close to it is reasonably quiet during the performances, it "should" offer a passable backup since you seem to be having problems with your "primary".

I'd still see if the audio guy can provide a house mix recording too...

Because of the pitch being exactly what I expected, I assumed that to be a bass note - very, very loud. Could of course be anything, but with 88 notes to choose from, interference starting on exactly one pitch from the song key seems a bit lottery number ish.

I was suspecting outside interference because the "note" simply didn't seem to quite fit into the song, unless something else was set very wrong, so that whatever "instrument" issued the tone/note/noise (I am reminded of the "well executed fart" analogy) stomped everything else in the mix.

What I heard in that short clip didn't make sense to me at first. I've done live audio many times, and had to track many "mystery noises"... and I still suspect that there are TWO things that were causing problems. You never know without being there...

I'm reminded of a show in an old theater, where there was a large airspace under the "stage", and when a guitarist who was of the "turn it all to 11" philosophy cranked the bass knob on his amp (back when amps were not tiny little digital "interfaces", but rather large heavy boxes with hot glowy things inside...), the whole dang stage became a gigantic "horn" and the already difficult mix became quite unruly (back to the "fart" analogy)! Audio is SO much fun!

Hey everyone!

Thanks so much for your opinions/thoughts on the problem. I talked to the guys running sound that day, and the guy who was supposed to help me with sound (but ended up being more of a burden). They said they would record a house mix onto USB (which failed to record the entire first half) and I decided to take what limited knowledge I had of audio and adjust my levels without talking to the guy that I was planning on working with (who dropped out the day of the performance). So I turned on the attenuator on the XA10, set the levels as best I could and let it go. I also moved the mics away from the sound booth. They were previously 2-5 inches away from the outside of the booth, so I angled them to be more like 12-16 inches from the booth. This helped immensely. I'm not sure if it was just turning on the attenuators, or moving the mics, but something ended up working and here is a clip of the audio for you all: BMHA Christmas Concert - Audio Preview - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xnpIY64RFU&feature=youtu.be)

The following are based on my personal preferences and should not be taken as good advice. Listen to the wiser words of others who comment here.


For your master camera ( wide shot ) :-


Try to avoid places where people close to you in the rear seats are going to get up and block too much of your view. However because all such events are interactive, you do not want to exclude all audience from all the camera views at any one time.

Try to avoid being in or near a pedestrian traffic area, especially if the floors are elevated platforms made of frame and wood. Your tripod will shake. Improvised public gallery seating and access-ways in re-purposed buildings can be the worst.

Try to avoid false verticals and horizontals when you set up. To the camera, no stage is going to present itself as a perfect rectangle to the camera view. Some cameras do not always mount squarely in reference to the levelling bubble on the tripod head. In the darkness of an arena with a stage curtained and unlit, it is not always easy to sort these things out. If you get a chance at a rehearsal, use it

My personal preference after trimming with the bubble is to check against any known true vertical edge in the shot, dead-centre in the camera view, not off to the side using frame edge to line it up. The frame edge will always mislead you due to perspective, lens distortion.

Your chances of finding a true horizontal edge in the view for a reference, exactly on the same level as your viewpoint are remote. Because you are unlikely to be exactly on a horizontal or vertical centreline from the stage through the auditorium, any view you have of the stage "frame" itself will more likely present the stage "frame" to the camera as a trapezoid shape.

There will be a perspective effect, however slight, in play. Referencing to the upper "frame" edge of the stage itself may seem almost natural but the perspective will make the lower edge of the stage "frame" very un-natural.

Be aware that sometimes, large spans in reinforced concrete balconies may bend under load as an audience moves in and tilt your camera ever so slightly but enough after setting up to spoil the look when it comes to horizontals. In composing my shots I try to avoid having any stage "frame" edge too close to my image frame edges.

Test what you see in the camera viewscreen with what you actually get by shooting a test frame inked onto a card with edges hard against your viewscreen edges. You may be surprised just how much your camera sensor sees that you do not in the viewscreen, especially with camcorders.


If it is possible for you to get a separate master recording from the mixing desk, do it. Sort this out well beforehand. The sound guy has his job to do and your clean feed is not his priority unless the organisation makes it part of the deal.

The designers of the audio sections of many modern digital camera of all flavours seem to have almost disdained established audio conventions which go back years. An industry standard of "unity gain" is often ignored. Trying to get decent feed levels into non-compliant camera audio systems may compromise the rest of the sound guy's previously hard-won settings and balances.

He may therefore not be very patient with you, especially if you come in at the last minute with the apologetic look of a whipped beagle expecting favours.

It is nearly always file-based digital recorders these days. MAKE SURE, whoever is doing the recording, stops the recording with recorder controls so the file closes off correctly. If the recorder is still running when all the appliances are turned off, you will lose that recording.

Audio continuity is king and a clean master/backup audio recording will save your bacon if for any reason all sound to cameras is contaminated.

You can always lay auditorium camera sound over a clean performance recording for atmosphere but going the other way is near-impossible.


If I am confronted with the impossible and have to manage several cameras myself without a mixing panel, my personal preference is to have a locked off wide master shot with a third camera if possible and to set the other two cameras, near to each other. If I only have the pair, I will try, if I can get some co-operation, to shoot safety cutaways and fillers prior to and after the show before everyone scatters.

For court ceremonial sittings and some stage events, where the camera presence must be discreet, my personal preference is to set the cameras close and alternate the cameras as master wide and close-up. I do this so that I can get cleaner cuts without cutting on partial zooms and apparently unmotivated camera motion whilst chasing a better frame after people move.

You really need to have rehearsal time or familiarity with a fixed ceremony or process to do this adequately.

I was really up against it with this one, no opportunity for prior preparation. It was a pro-bono and was rushed, 47 minutes running time, cut together manually by 36 hours after shooting.

Fortunately the guitar guy is familiar with mixing for live-gigs and managed the audio feed for me, even managed to graph out most of the dreadful highway traffic noise. You will observe continuity errors with the guitars but if I had not shot what safeties I could after the event concluded it would have been much worse.

I am prepared to fess up. I accidentally gave the second tripod a kick which is the cause of the discontinuity. - Actually a partial kick complexed by my trouser cuff catching on the hooked foot of the tripod leg and finishing the job.

"SECRETS MOTHERS KEEP" LIVE BOOKREAD PREVIEW - YouTube

Hey guys! Thanks so much for all the help/advice. I've been working on this for the past couple weeks (editing wise) and wanted to thank all of you for the tips. I'm very glad I was able to get feedback before shooting this concert. Definitely made a significant impact on the quality I was able to achieve with this video.

Quick update: I was approached by the director about putting together a full edit of the video before I left after shooting the concert. It took me by surprise because I was only planning on doing a highlight video, but thanks to everyone's advice on here, I shot like I was going to edit the full thing, so I was able to say yes. I have that done, and ready to go. I created a DVD with motion menus, two highlight videos (one 1m and the other 2m), and scene selection. I planned to give a free copy of the DVD to the director, however she approached me this week about getting 12 copies, one for every member of the cast/crew. I have the materials for such a job, but am hesitant to give them away for free. So I asked her if she would be willing to pay for them, she told me to name my price. This brings me back to you all, I don't know what a DVD like this is worth. For reference, here is a picture of the completed DVD and case:

Untitled | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27747982@N07/11958505774/in/photostream/)

And a higher quality of the DVD cover itself:

DVD Cover Version 2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27747982@N07/11828155993/in/photostream/)

I am unsure what to ask. I have the materials to make approx 40 DVDs and I spent $110 on all the materiasl (ink included). This brings me to $2.75 per DVD. However, my goal is to make some of my money back on this product. Is it reasonable to ask $5? $10? Somewhere in between?

EDIT: Overall, for the entire concert, I spent a total of $654.97 on this project. I spent 424.70 on the rentals/equipment to shoot it. I spent $110.30 on the physical DVD materials. Then I spent $119.97 on music licenses for the DVD menu and highlight videos.

You'll probably get responses from $20-40... based on what others have posted, and what most people charge for a copy of a well shot and edited "event" video.

$5-10 likely undervalues the time and effort significantly, and if the end product is quality (esp vs. "prior" videography), it might be reasonable for a short "run" of disks - you mentioned 12, but I've had requests for a short run that quickly turned into 100+.... you may want to feel that out before you quote a price, as quantity can offset the per piece price!

edit: It occurred to me that if you were producing say 100 pieces, $10 might well become a viable price point for this "first time" project, so perhaps you should at least float the higher price, and be prepared to offer a better one with quantity?

Hey man! Can't thank you enough for the quick response. As this was my first project, I was really worried about over-charging them. I honestly thought $10 was high, so hearing that other professionals charge so much, kinda started me. I wanted to charge closer to $20 a piece, but was afraid it would be completely unreasonable. I will have to give this a bit more thought, and do a bit more math.

You have to think of it in terms of what a "new release" movie costs, not in terms of what the "bargain DVD bin" does.

Not that there's anything wrong with DVD's for a couple bucks, but in terms of a one of a kind "feature" with a limited distribution... a "one of a kind" thing if you will... it in theory becomes "priceless" (name your price)to the person who wants a copy (keep in mind 99.999% of the rest of the potential viewers may not be interested at all, and to them, the DVD is a coaster).

This is the tricky part of "event" videos - how do you place a value on a child's performance, on a brides' "special day", etc. etc.? It's not about the DVD, it's the CONTENT, and that can be worth a LOT to friends, family and loved ones! THIS is where the "value" of event video is, not in cameras, sliders. steadicams, editing bays, or even deliverables... it's the CONTENT, the artful (and quality) "capture of the moment". This is also why I think some people don't seem to mind really BAD video (technically speaking), so long as they can sort of see and hear the content...

Once people see QUALITY, they should understand it takes work and investment in equipment beyond an iPhone to achieve, and hopefully be willing to pay "reasonable" amounts for it... but that is the battle in making videography a "business"! And of course we still have to "compete" with shaky handheld vertical format phone-cam footage too, so you can't go too crazy on prices either!

I have never thought about it like that before. I really should have. It is an entirely unique product, designed/created for them. Thanks for all the input! Here is a link to the one of the Highlight videos I produced for the event. I'd love to get some feedback on it.

Sounds of Christmas Concert 2013 Highlight Video - YouTube

The problem with starting too low on pricing is that it becomes VERY hard to raise them the following year ... especially if you're starting with $10 and you know you should be making $20 or higher.

There's nothing wrong on giving them a little bit of a break the first year so you can get your product in front of them, but you need to be MUCH closer to what you think you want to charge the following year. Otherwise, they're going to think you're gouging them.

I thought the video image looked good, but was let down by not hearing anything from the concert? I do lots of music stuff, and what I saw looked interesting, but I felt let down that a rather dull and out of place (as in Christmas concert with no christmas music) had been used rather than something from the concert. We saw some interesting bass playing and some pretentious guitar stuff, plus people who might be speaking or singing?

I like the images a lot - but what's the concert sound like?

+1 for Paul

That montage does nothing for me. It is a concert. IMHO you can not discard the audio completely.

Steve

How would you guys do it? Honestly, when it comes to the "highlight" videos, I didn't really know what to do. I ended up with what I did because that is all I've ever known. I'm completely new to concert video. I have done some summer camps, music videos, and one wedding (years ago) but have never done a highlight video for a concert. What is the best way to go about keeping the music? How long should the clips be? Does anyone have any good exmaples of what a highlight video should look like?

I hope you don’t think I was being hard on you, just my opinion. There is no hard right or wrong answers to the questions you just asked. Editing is as creative (maybe more so) as shooting. If 50 of us edited your footage into highlights you would get back 50 different looks.

I always start by thinking about how the brain of the viewer is going to interpret what they see and hear. For example, the entire video could be audio from just one of the songs from the concert. So you start, with video and audio from that song. Once the viewer knows that is what they are looking at you start cutting other highlight shots in and out of that song and finish for sure with video of that song. Every clip does not have to have its audio used. Here is the tricky part, when you start cutting in the other clips you want it to be obvious that is what you are doing. So the brain does not get confused. Creative use of transitions is one way to do this. But be careful not to get too cheesy with them. Fortunately, music video and highlight reels are one place it is OK to get out your box of cheesy tools. For example, one way to achieve what I am talking about would be with picture in picture. The song being performed would get reduced to a small PIP every time you cut to something else, then expand back to full frame, then back to PIP etc, etc. PIP is not always pretty (some guys just moaned when they read that). But I am trying to make the point that the viewer will never wonder how the images they are viewing is linked to what they are hearing.

Also, avoid awkward cuts like showing a guitar riff while a drum solo is playing on your audio. Tricky I know, I am telling you they should know they are not listening to that exact riff, but don’t go as far overboard as just drums. As video editors we struggle with continuity, flow, and perception all the time. That is what it is about. And the problems are almost always solved creatively, not from a rule book.

You are the only one that can do it because you will be looking at it and listening to it as you put the pieces of the puzzle back together. All the while, trying to think like a viewer that does not have all the information that is in your brain.

Have fun with it. Welcome to professional video. This is why we say….If it was easy, Uncle Bob could it!

Hope this helps.

Steve

Well thank you. I know it isn't easy ;) I was the "uncle bob" but more like "cousin matt" and it was no fun. I knew I wanted to do better, and years later, here I am, trying to do better. I have looked at some stuff online, but it seems highlight videos from concerts are few and far between. Most of the ones I found seem to be some form of K-pop band.

I think what you mentioned may be a viable option and I'll play around with it tonight. However, I don't have a lot of time (and I despise PIP most of the time). I was asked to have DVDs ready by tomorrow, so I'll be looking to see if I can get an edit done tonight, if not, then I'll be forced to stick with what I have. As this particular doesn't really know they are getting a highlight video, it was more just for me to get some experience editing and hopefully add a fun surprise to the DVD. If I'm not happy with it by the time I need to create the DVD master, I'll just give up and leave it out. Possibly putting one up online later.

PIP was just an example to illustrate my point. I don't use it, unless the scenario makes it a requirement.

Steve

It's quite possible to edit different songs together, but you have to match the musical keys and the tempo, and that's a bit tricky, but can be done.
Toni Warne - YouTube
This is an edit of quite a few weeks worth of show, into something that works musically - If you listen to Proud Mary, there's a bit of a verse, a chorus and and end - so just enough to make the song work. The singer was just given the clips with her in them - so no separate audio tracks - just the 'as broadcast stuff'.

I'd see if you can do something similar with your clips from the show.

Steven hit the one thing that stood out a bit to me - the expectation is that the audio and the video "match" in some way... once I got over that, the video itself looked good, you improved over the last guy!

The problem with a "highlight" is always trying to stitch together a bunch of different "outfits" to make an ensemble that doesn't look funky or tacky (nod to those US Olympic duds - ouch, my eyes...).

I just took it as a highlight video with a generic "soundtrack", and figured the actual deliverable DVD would be the actual performances, i.e. a "documentary" of the event.

Most of the time mixing a successful "trailer" or "highlight" is harder than straight "docu" mixing! Much like a movie trailer, you have 30-60 seconds to "hook" the viewer to watch the whole thing, so you have to connect them to the "whole" - perhaps a "Christmas Concert" with Christmas music might be one place to start?

The reason I didn't use Christmas music for the highlight video was simply because the place I went to license music (premiumbeat.com, due to affordablility) had very little that I liked as far as Christmas went, so I decided to throw some generic "rock" track on there to suit my needs. At this point, I'm trying to put together a simple highlight with actual video/audio from the event as opposed to the generic track. I'm having a bit more luck with it already than I had anticipated. The DVD itself has a full length edit of the video, and really the intention of delivering the DVD was to give out a copy of the full performance. That is what I spent most of my time on. The highlight, for me, was a bit of an after thought. Something else I could put on the DVD to give it more depth. I intend to work closely with the director of the concert to create a promo for next year, however I deemed that an unnecessary part of the DVD as it is still January.

At the end of the day, I don't have to deliver a highlight video. They are not paying me for anything other than a DVD with the full video on it. That is what I will deliver if I can't put a better highlight video together by tomorrow night. I appreciate all the feedback.

Matthias,

You have had a great project to cut your teeth on. And a lot of DVINFO guys really stepped up to give you good advice. There is a lot of good advice on this thread. That does not always happen for new boots. It happened for you because you hung in there with us. Don't get me wrong, this is a community based on people helping each other, regardless of experience level. I have done this for a few years and I learn something new on this site almost every day. The reason some guys ( at least me) are hesitant to spend a lot of time helping a new guy is this: some guy logs in and says "I have a new project on my hands, PLEASE help me! We spend our time helping out, and the guy never returns to the site again.

If you continue to hold your interest in video this site is an amazing resource. And much of what you will want to learn is already here. Check out the whole site, you might be surprised what you find.

I am glad this project went well for you. I have seen guys with far more experience than you put a gig like that straight in the toilet!

Paul, did you work on that edit? I could have made some jokes about her choice of hair style but I am sensitive to the fact it could be chemo induced, so I refrained?

Steve

Matthias, first, you did a very good job shooting and editing the images for the highlight video. But, a lot of the viewers experience will be how well you were able to capture the sound. If it is good you've got a very worthwhile product.

or event videos, as has been pointed out, you can't go by what a mass produced DVD would cost. I do a lot of dance, theatrical, and live performance video productions. I keep the costs of the finished DVD's as low as I can while still making a reasonable rate. My normal day rate for a day of shooting if I bring my own camea is $850. So, if I'm doing a live event video where I'll also edit there has to be a reasonable return. I'm still less expensive than a lot of others around me in my market. I usually charge $25 per DVD and $30 for a BR. Other companies around me are charging $30 or $35 per DVD. Having the ability to purchase a quality produced video is usually very worth it for the people who want it because it allows them to enjoy the live performance without having to worry about videoing it. I always have people come up to me after these shows and thank me for doing it.

I would recommend that you don't scrap working on the highlight video. You've got the footage and it could be a good learning experience as well as possibly a good marketing tool. To be able to cut between different performances you should learn a little about editing narratives and documentaries. Using a lot of those techniques and theories will help to put a highlight video together that won't feel choppy or have a strange rhythm to it. Cross fades can help but don't over use them. You could cut midway through a song to the beginning of another song to eliminate strange tempo or pitch changes. If you are knowledgeable about music, you could even go as far as making cuts between pleasing chord progressions. Think of it as doing a jazz solo, sometimes changes in keys or tempos are abrupt, and sometimes they are smooth and almost seamless. Editing is definitely an art. There is a definite rhythm that every project has both visually and sonically. Good luck and have fun with it.