I was planning to use one of the latest Apple Power Books with a 5400 rpm 80Gig ATA/100 drive to capture directly from the HVX.

I've heard from some people that the laptop doesn't have the speed to capture the 100Mbps data stream. From those who are familiar with both products, does capture to a laptop seem possible?

I think that your hard drive is too slow. Most video manufacturers require a 7200 to 10000 rpm hard drive. I have used slow hard drives in the past and get dropped frames quite often.

I've been capturing form my DVX100a to laptops with USB2 5400 and 4200 RPM drives with zero dropped frames for several months. Of course, DV is much less data than DVCPro-HD.

Laptop 7200rpm drives are widely and cheaply available. My guess is they should work for most HVX capture scenarios, especially on a firewire connection but maybe even USB2.

I'd really recommend using an external drive. For portable editing I use a little 5400rpm 30GB 2.5in drive in a USB2 case as well as a 7200rpm 120GB 3.25in drive in a Firewire case.

The little USB2 drive is great for portability, but it would definately struggle with anything much beyond 25Mbit DV. You might get away with single stream 40Mbit 720p24 DVCPro HD.

The larger Firewire drive is much quicker and I suspect could cope with full-on 100Mbit DVCPro HD (although the most demanding I've personally used is DVCPro50). The down side is that it's more bulky and requires a power-supply. However, I think it's well worth the extra space and speed.

I'd also suggest building your own Firewire drive - ie, select a drive mechanism and a case and put them together yourself. That way you know what you're getting in terms of drive performance, acoustic performance and reliability, you'll also be able to get a slightly more compact case (many "name brand" Firewire drives come in ridiculously oversized cases!), and you'll save yourself a few pennies in the process.

Alex

I've been capturing form my DVX100a to laptops with USB2 5400 and 4200 RPM drives with zero dropped frames for several months. Of course, DV is much less data than DVCPro-HD.

Laptop 7200rpm drives are widely and cheaply available. My guess is they should work for most HVX capture scenarios, especially on a firewire connection but maybe even USB2.

We had problems with uncompressed Digibeta SDI out and several forms of HD. We tried D5, HDCam and even D-VHS. We did not try DVCProHD, so that might not drop frames as it would be coming in over firewire.

I'm glad you've had good luck with your laptops. We've done okay with dv. Just not the bigger stuff. Had to move to an Avid Adrenaline and a DS for the other.

One solution: Mac T-Book with FW800 and a drive such as a
LaCie Big Disk Extreme.

After some research, I'm going to try upgrading the hard drive to a 7200. I've also been researching bus powered external drives, as I will be out, away from AC for a lot of my shooting.

Thanks for the ideas and input.

KC

Hi Ken,
I have a similar problem...and don't have a clear solution at this point. I will be working off 12V DC for an extended period shooting a documentary. I want to be able to reduce my archived material by editing off any unusable footage. This would require the ability to load the DVCProHD material onto an editing platform like Avid or the like and trim as required...then transfer the edited video to the storage device (another issue!!) not having lost any quality in the process. I'll be watching this thread to see if you come up with a solution...and will let you know if I come up with any ideas beside the hugely expensive (around $8,000!) "1 Beyond" laptops: (http://www.1beyond.com/products/laptops.asp?search=laptops)
Cheers,
Bruce

I've been watching M-Tech laptops to see when the dual channel processor AMD & INTEL models role out. They are priced reasonably at about $3,000.
I'm a Mac guy and I'm going the way of Serious Magic DV Rack for HD recording. I still edit with FCP.

For those of us who might go the laptop/external hard drive route, any thoughts about how we'd keep them hooked to the camera while using a full-on glidecam with arm and vest?

Maybe something like this:

http://www.standalonelaptop.com/pages/1/index.htm

I know it looks a little flimsy for production work and will no doubt add to the front-heavy feeling of the fully loaded glidecam.

Running / travelling shots will definately be more of a challenge with the laptop capture method. The difficulty of getting these shots (especially if your show is filled with them) may make it worth getting the P2 cards or waiting for the Firestore solution.

For those of us who might go the laptop/external hard drive route, any thoughts about how we'd keep them hooked to the camera while using a full-on glidecam with arm and vest?
Two solutions:

1) The FireStore. It's only a pound, and very, very tiny.

2) a LONG firewire cable. You should be able to run a 75' cable. Not as good a solution as the first one, but with a skilled cable wrangler following you around and keeping the weight/tension constant (i.e., you the operator are not actually dragging the weight of the cable), it should be perfectly workable.

I'm not finding a firestore drive that is compatable with HDV. Can you point me in the right direction?

Two solutions:

1) The FireStore. It's only a pound, and very, very tiny.

2) a LONG firewire cable. You should be able to run a 75' cable. Not as good a solution as the first one, but with a skilled cable wrangler following you around and keeping the weight/tension constant (i.e., you the operator are not actually dragging the weight of the cable), it should be perfectly workable.

I've been watching M-Tech laptops to see when the dual channel processor AMD & INTEL models role out. They are priced reasonably at about $3,000.
I'm a Mac guy and I'm going the way of Serious Magic DV Rack for HD recording. I still edit with FCP.

I know DV Rack supports HDV now, but will it work for 10 bit?

I'm not finding a firestore drive that is compatable with HDV. Can you point me in the right direction?
HDV is not relevant to the HVX200. The FS-4 can be upgraded for $299 to support HDV, but that doesn't do an HVX200 user any good.

Firestore is introducing a new model specifically designed to work with the HVX200; they've made a press release, the actual unit should be delivered sometime in the first quarter of next year.

From the press release: "The FireStore FS-100 for the HVX200 is expected to be available in March 2006, and price will be less than $2,000." For the full text please have a look here: http://www.focusinfo.com/corporate/pr_new/IBCWrapUp091905.htm.

Yes, and if the new Firestore is anything like the FS-4, it will have a removable battery pack, so you will be able to have a 90-minute run time per battery.

Focus Enhancements has also pegged the price of the HVX compatable Firestore somewhere south of $2000.

You should also have an optional mounting kit that connects to the hot shoe on top of the handle, like the FS-4. You should be able to keep the balance centered enough to operate the HVX on a stabilizer with Firestore as one connected unit.

1. Is it possible to upgrade the Powerbook G4 laptop (best model) to a fast 7200 ATA drive that would make this scenario (capturing from the HVX200 directly on the laptop) possible? Anything on the market that might fit this problem and solve it?

2. In case the above isn't possible, are there firewire 7200 drives that are completely mobile (don't require separate power)? Or, at least, can be powered by a mobile, effective device - such as a high-capacity battery belt or something.

Just asking... would like to investigate all the options/solutions.

PS I would definitely buy the HVX - but not with the P2 cards. I'd need to sell my DVX100 (a beautiful thing working perfectly) AND put way more money to buy two memory cards that can hold only 16minutes and will drop in price like crazy in no time. I'd better give my DVX away to some poor student. And the Firestore is coming all the way in March...

Laptop drives generally aren't fast enough, however according to barefeats.com the Segate Momentus 7200.1 2.5" drive can sustain a transfer rate of at least 31MBytes/s. This leaves plenty of headroom for 100Mbit DVCPro HD.

It's a major job to take apart a PowerBook and replace the HD, and I doubt Apple use the Segate Momentus as their stock upgrade drive. But the Momentus drive does even better in a FW800 case. So, with a G4 laptop and a Segate Momentus 7200.1 in a portable FW800 case you could capture from the HVX200.

Just to be clear, though, you can't capture directly from the camera to the HD.

Just to be clear, though, you can't capture directly from the camera to the HD.

No, but you could run it directly into FCP or Avid on the G4 and record on the fly, right?

Yes. You can capture directly into FCP or whatever over firewire. And although it never used to be recommended, I've never had a problem daisy chaining the camera into the HDD into a PowerBook and capturing onto the HDD (although I've only tried DV25).

I guess if you had a 15" or 17" Powerbook with FW800 then you wouldn't even need to daisy chain them... Although 2.5" FW800 enclosures seem pretty pricey!

I keep trying to think of solutions that wouldn't require the Laptop too... all I come up with involves building a very small computer. But then I realise that's what the Firestore is: a hard drive with a small (albeit with limited functionality) computer.

I wonder if anyone does a Laptop with a really fast HD (other than the very expensive 1Beyond Laptops). Or I could just buy a Firestore... :-P

Having said it was hard to replace the internal HDD on a PowerBook, I've since found several guides online that say otherwise.

xlr8yourmac.com have an upgrade guide (warning you will void your warantee) and says that it only takes about 30 minutes, so it probably wouldn't cost that much to ask an Apple service center to do it for you.

I am now drooling over the thought of a fast 100GB drive inside a brand new PowerBook.

How about this option for capturing directly to laptop (PowerBook)?

The hard is 1ooGb - let's suppose you will have in the end a partition of 50Gb just for the HVX. This would give you aprox 230mins of 720p or 50mins of 1080 high definition video. Would this work until the Firestore is released?

--------
MCE Ships 100GB/7200 RPM Hard Drive Upgrade for PowerBooks

MCE Technologies, LLC (MCE) has added a 100GB hard drive with a fast rotational speed of 7200 RPM to their MobileStor line of PowerBook, iBook and Mac mini hard drive upgrades. The MCE MobileStor 100GB/7200RPM drive is the highest performance drive available at the 100GB capacity for the Apple PowerBook and sports an 8MB cache buffer.

The drive has a suggested retail price of $399 and is available for immediate shipment.

“Our new MobileStor 100GB/7200RPM drive is the ideal pairing of speed with capacity and makes light work out of any data intensive task the PowerBook G4 might give it during video editing, dvd creation, image retouching or otherwise,” stated Arnold Ramirez, president of MCE.

The MCE MobileStor 100GB/7200RPM PowerBook hard drive upgrade is compatible with all Apple PowerBook G4 models, and can also be installed into any iBook G4, PowerBook G3, iBook G3, and Mac mini models.

The MCE MobileStor 100GB/7200 RPM PowerBook hard drive’s most impressive feature besides its sheer capacity is its rotational speed of 7200RPM. This gives the drive the ability to have sustained data transfer rates of over to 75MB per second with burst transfer rates of up to 100MB per second.

The drive is also designed with an 8MB read and write cache buffer. This allows the drive to anticipate which data will be requested next by the PowerBook, and the drive will pre-load this data into its high-speed buffer. If the PowerBook does request this pre-loaded data then the drive responds immediately, transmitting the data from its super-fast memory buffer, completely eliminating the latency involved in having to search for the data on its disk. The larger the cache, the greater chance the data will already be pre-loaded. Since most drives include only a 2MB buffer, the MobileStor 100GB/7200RPM’s 8MB buffer gives it a further performance advantage.

The MobileStor 100GB/7200RPM drive’s fluid dynamic bearing technology reduces acoustic noise by up to 20% over drives without this feature. The drive also features a low-power idle mode to help conserve PowerBook battery life during non-hard drive intensive activities.

The MCE MobileStor 100GB/7200RPM PowerBook hard drive upgrade has a suggested retail price of $399 and includes an illustrated installation guide and an installation kit containing the tools needed to properly install the drive. More information can be found online at:
http://www.mcetech.com/ms.html
-------

a LONG firewire cable. You should be able to run a 75' cable. Not as good a solution as the first one, but with a skilled cable wrangler following you around and keeping the weight/tension constant (i.e., you the operator are not actually dragging the weight of the cable), it should be perfectly workable.

Barry somewhere in the back of mind is the IEE1394 spec says a maximum cable length of 15 feet. I know in practice you can get away with longer runs, but the longest I've seen is 33 feet, and they won't guarantee it will work in every situation.
http://www.usbfirewire.com/Parts/rr-fw-002-20.html
Maybe you know of a better solution - I seem to remember somewhere cables with built in repeaters.

Just found a longer one on GMP - but woul it be safe to use?
http://www.globalmediapro.com/video/products/Datavideo_2066_DV_Cable--989.html

Yes the IEEE spec is maxxed out at 14.5 feet. With that said, I regularly use a 30' Laird and it works fine.

We tried using 30' cables with a 16' extension and that was a complete no-go.

Some people on the Serious Magic forum are reporting having no problems with a 75' cable. I can't see how that would work without some sort of repeater along the way; maybe they're using repeaters.

In my own experience, as long as you're using a quality manufacturer's properly-engineered cable (such as the Laird 30') it's completely reliable. No way would I trust some $8 no-name cable from ebay, but the Laird stuff works well.

i have used 50ft cables from camera to laptop running DV rack and have used same cable from DV deck to laptop ...so far no problems .. the same 50ft cable from laptop to 1394 hard drive doesn't work =problems mounting the drive ...

Sorry to insist...

But would the set-up I was talking about a few posts above work? The Powerbook laptop (op of the line) with a 100Gb 7200rpm hard-disk...

In theory at least.

Thanks you.

Yes that should certainly work, as long as all the components meet the minimum specified requirements of FCP-HD.

Apple is now selling its top-of-the-line Powerbook G4 laptop with an option to have the 100Gb 7200rpm hard-disk instead of the 120Gb 5400rpm one.

For the guys interested in this approach... I think it's pretty recent since I haven't seen this option just a while ago.

Instead of paying close to $3500-4000 for 2 P2 cards, you can just buy a brand-new Powerbook G4 with a 7200rpm hdd ($2500), partition the drive in two (let's say) 50Gb disks and capture directly from the HVX into the laptop. Home, you transfer the files onto a firewire drive.

Of course, there are limitations, but later on you can expand your camera with the Firestore or even with the P2 cards when the price drops (or the capacity increases) to give you more minutes of recording on the set. Not to mention that with this approach you also get an amazing laptop in addition to your system... :-)

That does sound interesting, Mike:) But didn't the Hard Drive press release you posted say the could handle 70 per second with bursts of up to a hundred and wouldn't a lot of the HD modes require 100? Or am I misreading as usual.

Betsy,

I'm just looking for ways to avoid the P2 cards till the Firestore arrives... or till their price drops down.

I don't know for sure if either option would work (the drive I mentioned in the pasted press release or Apple's included one). That is why I posted my question here.

I would be happy with 720p if 1080i is not an option. I just desperately want to be able to capture DVCPRO HD directly to a Powerbook G4 with a workable internal hard-disk for this situation. If I can't do this, then I will have to (reluctantly) spend a few grands on those cards...

Anybody else seriously considering going the way of laptop capture before the Firestore is released?

The company I work for is going to purchase the latest G4 laptop and the HVX w/2x8Gig P2s. We'll be using the laptop (w/7200RPM drive) for P2 offloading and for extended captures. As soon as we get the gear (when it's finally released) I'll be sure to post the results.

Is there anyway to salvage my PB G4 1GHZ? I read of the possible 7200 rpm drive that might help for capture. Is this possible though being only a 1 GHZ PB. Think I could even play a single stream in FCP w/ this unit even if it did capture o.k.?

thanks,......I'd just hate for this PB to be useless when the new HVX comes.

probably dreaming huh?

Rob

You might be able to get away with using an external firewire hard drive. I seem to recall a bus powered drive out there if you don't have access to AC.

You'll no doubt be able to test your laptop when footage from the camera is posted on this and other forums. Better yet, find someone local who's going to get one.

You might be able to get away with using an external firewire hard drive. I seem to recall a bus powered drive out there if you don't have access to AC.

You'll no doubt be able to test your laptop when footage from the camera is posted on this and other forums. Better yet, find someone local who's going to get one.

I will be doing a lot of testing when I get the camera, as I'm sure others will as well. I have a friend who I think has one of the earlier Powerbooks, I'll see if she can bring it over for a test. Bottom line, I'd wait and see the solutions others are going to come up with before plunging in and buing this camera right off the bat.

Kenn,

Do you know the particular firewire drive that is bus powered? The new powerbook 1.67Ghz and the drive you mentioned might prove to be a solution for some people before the Firestore arrives. Or before P2 prices drop a little.

Mike

Mike,

There's this:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MOFW80GB72/

and then Macworld did reviews of various bus powered drives here:

http://www.macworld.com/2005/05/reviews/fwharddrivesportable/index.php

Only a few of the drives reviewed are 7200rpm, unfortunately.

Where can you buy Laird cords? I've looked on the net, googled, and on ebay, and haven't found 30' lairds or a link to a Laird site.

Betsy
I thought the firewire chords were limited in length...