Hi. I'm new to this whole HDV thing, so please excuse the elementary questions. I know that standard m2t takes up about 13gb/hour of footage. However, if I'm hoping to use Gearshift and converting to an easy DV proxy since I only have a 2.6 Ghz system. My hope is to convert 1080 60i to 1080 24p, but use a dv proxy to edit. How much harddrive space should I allocate for that? And is it okay to use USB 2.0 external drives for that? Or do they need to be firewire drives?

Also, on a side note, I run Vegas 6 using Windows 2000 -- I heard there was a driver issue trying to get the Sony HDV cams to be read by 2000. Is this true?

Again, sorry for all the questions. There's a lot of HDV info out there, but some of it is so contradictory or high-level that the more I read, the more confused I get.

First...
Win2K will see the cam, but it's a number of clicks to get it to do so.

As far as the proxies, you'd need to allocate the same amount of space for the DV proxies as the HDV files use, approximately. DV is the same data rate as 1080 HDV. You get a little bit of file size shaved off for 24p, and GearShift can convert it to a DV 24p widescreen with correct color space compensation.

Questions are welcome, never hesitate to ask them.

Instead of using DV proxies, can Gearshift create Cineform proxies (using the Cineform that comes with Vegas), and then let you switch to m2t files for the final render?

I'm just thinking that this would provide the highest quality in the end (though I am not certain about how this would work for color correction - you'd probably still have to color correct the m2t directly), but it just strikes me that Gearshift could allow the built-in Cineform to have more functionality.

I realize that it would take more hard drive space than DV proxies, but it seems that this would allow higher-end computers (like 3Mhz P4s and up) to work in HDV the entire time if the users wanted to go through this workflow, but with the added benefit of returning to m2t in the end.

Instead of using DV proxies, can Gearshift create Cineform proxies (using the Cineform that comes with Vegas), and then let you switch to m2t files for the final render?

I'm just thinking that this would provide the highest quality in the end (though I am not certain about how this would work for color correction - you'd probably still have to color correct the m2t directly), but it just strikes me that Gearshift could allow the built-in Cineform to have more functionality.

I realize that it would take more hard drive space than DV proxies, but it seems that this would allow higher-end computers (like 3Mhz P4s and up) to work in HDV the entire time if the users wanted to go through this workflow, but with the added benefit of returning to m2t in the end.

yes, GearShift can render to the CineForm codec from either the timeline, bins, or explorer. It can also generate the proxies, AND a 4:2:2 YUV file if you'll be doing HDCAM.
CineForm does use more HDD space than proxies, but it's a great editing experience IF you have a 3.2 or faster.

One thing to be aware of is that Cineform avi files smartrender just like regular DV footage. In other words, any part of the video that hasn't been changed is just copied to the newly rendered file. This has two advantages: speed and quality. It's fast because only transitions and parts with filters applied are rerendered. It's high quality because most of your renders are exactly the same as the original.

The point of this is that I would use the Cineform codec stuff for rendering rather than the original M2T files. In either case you are looking at at least one generation of rerendering: M2T to M2T means that the whole thing is rerendered; Cineform to Cineform means that you have one generation at the beginning, and only generations beyond that at points where transitions or filters are applied.

In addition to this, Cineform is designed for rerenders and looks good quite a few generations later. Mpeg is not.

Laurence my experience is somewhat different. I have cropped a 4x3 SD DV image from m2t, cineform and Canopus HQ. The m2t ouput is by far the best, it is considerably sharper. In this case there is just one reencode. For repeated encodes you are correct that Cineform and the Canopus codecs stand up much better than repeated mpeg re-encodes. But in the case of cineform and the Canopus HQ they still have to be encoded again to go back out to the camera as HDV. FOr me the main advantage of the intermediates is smooth speed in editing but there is the disadvantage on extra space on the hard drive and the time to encode and re-encode for export anyway. In both the cases I tried I used the standard file size and have not tried the large file size options which may yield better results.

Ron Evans

Well cropping the Cineform footage makes it rerender so in that case using Cineform would give you an extra generation.

I use the ConnectHD utility to convert the footage, and Cineform says that because of the mpeg decoder that they use, this generates a slightly higher quality image. This conflicts with other statements I've read saying that there is no difference in quality between the ConnectHD and a direct Vegas Cineform render. As far as I can see they look the same, but I have a pretty modest LCD screen for monitoring so I really can't say. Any difference must be quite subtle, but none-the-less might be important when comparing M2T to Cineform renders.

The one thing that does make a difference that you can see even on the cheap LCD monitor is rendering direct to MPEG 2 instead of DV when you are downrezzing to SD. The colors seem much brighter with a direct DVD compatible MPEG render.

The test I did was from a musical theatre show and from the full stage camera. I was wanting to see if I could create a multicam shoot from just one HDV camera by cropping and panning and zooming from the one file. I used both the m2t file, this file encoded by HDconnect and this file encoded by Canopus PCE to the HQ format. I then used Vegas 6, Premiere Pro 1.5.1 and EDius PRo3 to see how easy it was to do this task as well as the final quality. Output choices were to DV in all cases as well as to create an MPEG2 file for DVD creation in DVDLab Pro. The clear winner was a TMGenc EXpress convert from the Vegas 6 m2t conversion to DV. THe finished DVD had less noise and was sharper. However the process was very lengthy compared to my usual use for EDius PRo3 with my DVRaptoRT2 which is realtime to DV. To be honest unless I want the HDV output I will convert to DV in camera and edit as normal. When work flow is MUCH faster and HD distributable output is available I will change. Currently I use my FX1 in HDV for family events and in DV mode for projects.

Ron Evans

First...
Win2K will see the cam, but it's a number of clicks to get it to do so.

As far as the proxies, you'd need to allocate the same amount of space for the DV proxies as the HDV files use, approximately. DV is the same data rate as 1080 HDV. You get a little bit of file size shaved off for 24p, and GearShift can convert it to a DV 24p widescreen with correct color space compensation.

Questions are welcome, never hesitate to ask them.

Spot, I've got my new HC1 and run Windows 2K. I've searched this forum and the Sony Vegas forum. I've configured Vegas to use the internal capture app. I've double checked the HC1 is in HDV mode. I've seen posts about how you have to manually install the drivers in XP if you don't have SP2, but those instructions don't apply to Win 2K. I've searched the Microsoft Windows 2000 support site and can't find anything there either. What are the "clicks" I need to do to get Windows to see the cam?

When the cam is on, in Device Manager, Imaging devices I can see "Microsoft DV Camera and VCR". But no HDV device. Right clicking in Imaging Devices doesn't let me install a new driver.

If I turn on the HDV-DV downsample mode in the camera and switch back to the external app, it recognizes it as a DV camera... but even this doesn't work correctly, the video I capture is all "garbled". So I can't even edit in DV mode, though at least Windows sees the camera...

Help!

Mark

I've got an answer to this from research and another forum...
No support for HDV 1394 capture with Windows 2000. I need to install Windows XP SP2.

Mark

WinXP SP2 definitely makes the driver installation easier. It will also work fine with SP1 but you have to manually locate and install the driver. You might also check out this thread - specifically the posts by "ForumAdmin".

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=391928

The indication is that it *can* work with Win2k if you get the proper driver installed but is recommended that you use XP SP2

Edward,

Thanks for that link! I had searched that Vegas forum, but didn't manage to find that thread.

Yes it seems to indicate it may be possible to use Windows 2000 IF you can "get the drivers to load". But it never gets to the point where it explains how one can get the drivers for Windows 2000.

I have done some brief editing of HDV files with Windows 2000 (I downloaded some clips for this, before I got my HDV camera) and that seemed OK, but it is the drivers part where I am stuck. Windows 2000 can see the device, but only as a DV one.

I too have a support ticket in with Sony... I expect they will answer the same way... recommend XP SP2.
I think that is they way I am going to have to go.

just got gearshift, it kix ass!!!

i do have a question though. does the DV Proxy last through the editing session ONLY? what if you closed it vegas file, reopen it. will gearshift be able to swap the HD files back in place? if so, how? i've been l00king up&down the faq&tutorials. everything is the latest version Vegas 6c, Gearshift 1.5.1. i've already done a m2t->DV Proxy conversion, how do i swap DV Proxy->m2t back? i tried clicking on gearshift with the radio dial on the 1st option to swap DV Proxy with m2t back on timeline, but it gives me the warning "errors were found when replacing media", and then an error message, "no media files were replaced.". i've tried several different things. nothing was changed from the time i did the DV Proxy conversion and tried to swap it back with m2t.

anyone? i don't want a cineform avi file. i want *only* the DV Proxy and then i need to swap it back for m2t. anyone?

ok, here is what i am doing:

1. capturing m2t.
2. place m2t onto timeline in vegas 6.
3. click on gearshit.
4. click on timeline tab.
5. select entire timline w/swap media on timeline checked.
6. click on gearshift.
7. select swap out real w/DV proxy
8. click OK.

then i get that message. if i DON'T click on gearshift button initially, i can get the initial m2t->DV Proxy conversion to work. but when i try to DV Proxy->m2t doesn't work. i get the same error messages. is there a step by step spelled out way to do this? the tutorial is too vague.

Hi Yi. I had the same problem. I posted the thread below. Basically DSE said they are working on it and that was about 2 months ago.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=53487&highlight=Gearshift+problem

Yi Fong,

I can't tell you details of how it works, but it has a naming scheme it uses to map the files.
And yes, it can work even if you close Vegas and re-open it.

Looking at your steps:

1. capturing m2t.
2. place m2t onto timeline in vegas 6.
3. click on gearshit.
4. click on timeline tab.
5. select entire timline w/swap media on timeline checked.
6. click on gearshift.
7. select swap out real w/DV proxy
8. click OK.


In step 5, selecting "swap media" means as well as render the Proxy, do an immediate shift. So by doing this, when step 5 is complete you already have the DV proxy on the timeline. So in Step 7 when you tell it to swap out the "real" with the DV proxy, it will be confused.

What I do is I don't tick the swap media box. If you do that, then the manual shift in step 7 will work. Or you can leave the box ticked, but skip step 7.

I also always put the proxy media in the same directory as the m2t files, this isn't mandatory but it seems less can go wrong (Gearshift will be sure to find the files).

Mark

hi mark,

that's precisely what i have done, only what happens is that i get those two error messages when i tried to swap the real media out for proxy ones. so... i dunno what2do from thereon.

as of right now, i have to move on with my work, i can't wait for gearshift bugs to be worked out. i don't have time. i thought $50 will get me that DV proxy pronto, but i was wrong.

i'm currently rendering it all as cineform .avi's. when that's all done, i'll do my editing.

I'm not sure if I made myself clear. The steps I copied were your steps, and if that's what you did there is a problem with it.

1. capturing m2t.
2. place m2t onto timeline in vegas 6.
3. click on gearshit.
4. click on timeline tab.
5. select entire timline w/swap media on timeline checked.
6. click on gearshift.
7. select swap out real w/DV proxy (Problem is here. As you had swap media checked, the DV proxy has already been swapped at this point. Trying to swap it again would cause that error).

Mark

hi mark,

that's precisely what i have done, only what happens is that i get those two error messages when i tried to swap the real media out for proxy ones. so... i dunno what2do from thereon.

as of right now, i have to move on with my work, i can't wait for gearshift bugs to be worked out. i don't have time. i thought $50 will get me that DV proxy pronto, but i was wrong.

i'm currently rendering it all as cineform .avi's. when that's all done, i'll do my editing.I must apologize for leaving this problem open for so long. (it slipped through the cracks) If you are not extracting regions, the best way to work with GearShift is to select the source files from the filesystem. This has always worked. I’m not sure why the timeline option is giving this error but I will work on this today and get you a fix.

~jr

hi mark,

what steps should i take if my steps aren't correct? how do you do it?

i also wasn't making myself clear. i'm running into problems in step#5. NOT #7. it doesn't matter what happens afterwards. the initial step of swapping out the real media for DV proxy doesn't work for me.

What I do:

1. capturing m2t.
2. place m2t onto timeline in vegas 6.
3. click on gearshift.
4. click on timeline tab.
5. select entire timline, swap media on timeline NOT checked. Select the same directory as where the m2t files are for the proxy location.
6. Click OK. Gearshift kicks off a render of the DV proxy.
7. Click on Gearshift, and click "Shift Gears".

You have to create the proxy first (this is what you do in step 5) before you can shift gears to use it.

Mark

I should add, the only reason I've started doing it this way is I do some rough cuts on the timeline first, so that the render to DV proxy is shorter and smaller. I've found this feature really useful, especially when I know I only want to use a small amount of the source material. Otherwise, I'd simply select the source files and convert them as John R suggested.

Mark

mark,

lemme try this @home when i get tonight. thx for the help.

john,

i tried doing that, it won't lemme batch render. haven't had any luck with it. it seems to be giving me errors @every turn after reinstalling fresh.

I’m sorry you are having so much difficulty with this. Feel free to email me jrofrano [at] vasst {dot} com and we will find a solution to your problem.

~jr

mark,

i'm @home now. your step#5 isn't clear.

i did select entire timeline radial dial and then unchecked swap media. the problem is that at this point, i can't click on the render directory, it is greyed out!

so when i click on OK right now, THEN it gives me a warning message about how it needs a directory, THEN i can select the directory.

also, the HD media is changed to [none] cause i don't need any YUV or cineform avi files.

i just finished the render. on your 7th step, i did click on shift gears and there are 2 more options, 1 is to swap out dv proxy for real media the 2nd option is to swap out real media for dv proxy. neither worked with or without the swap media under timeline checked.

i can't f00l around any longer, i'm going to have to render cineform .avi's to try and edit by the weekend. wish me luck!

Try this

1. capturing m2t.
2. place m2t onto timeline in vegas 6.
3. click on gearshit.
4. click on timeline tab.
5. select entire timline w/swap media on timeline checked.

Steps 1-5 are yours. After step 5 be sure that the HD Media pull down box is set to "None" then click OK. Gearshift will build the proxy files and replace your m2t files on the timeline with the proxies.

After you finish editing then

Click on Gearshift
Click on Shift Gears amd select "Swap out proxy media replacing it with real media"
Click OK

Your proxies sgould now be replaced with m2t files.

The error in Gearshift is that swapping M2T files for DV proxies is not supported in Timeline mode. So GearShift should not allow you to specify HD Media=(none) with Timeline selected. You MUST render both HD and Proxy to use Timeline mode and have Shift Gears work.

My apologies for GearShift not preventing this. I will update it so that it doesn’t allow you to do this.

The reason you can’t use M2T files for the timeline render is because you can trim the events on the timeline but if only DV Proxies were generated, there would be no information to know the offsets into the original M2T file so that you can swap the proxies out for the real media. Perhaps I can devise a way by using the timecode offset in the filename or something, but it doesn’t do that today.

If you just want to use DV proxies, then you MUST use the Source Files option so that the entire M2T file becomes a DV Proxy (and the swap is one-for-one). If you want to use the Timeline option, then you MUST ALSO render an HD Media AVI file with the DV Proxies (again so the swap is one-for-one).

I also apologize because there is no documentation to tell you this. I will work on that too.

~jr

A new version of GearShift (1.5.2) is available on the VASST site. This version will warn you that you must select HD Media if Timeline is your Source. DV Proxies can still be generated from M2T files if the Source Files option is used. (this has always been possible from Version 1.0 and is still the primary way most people use GearShift) As I said in my previous post, I will look into a way to support only using DV proxies with Timeline and M2T files.

~jr

John, Yi.

My apologies... I'm sure I got this to work yesterday - I put a m2t file on the timeline, I deleted all but a small bit of it, and rendered a DV proxy only, and shifted gears. Maybe I created a HD file as well without knowing it.
Mark

I resolved my main issue! The key for me was to keep my tab on the Source Files Tab, render my DV Proxy and gearshift (like the way I drive stick shift!).

Thank you John for your help/assisstance. I think the amount of time you spent on this is already waaay over $50 I paid for the plugin! The time you put in to secure the reputation of VASST is to be highly praised! Even Microsoft, Sony, Adobe, Avid combined doesn't equate to the personal support that you give. You've won a customer for a lifetime =).

addendum: i am unaffiliated in any way with VASST or John! =). he's still gotta fix that timeline issue in Gearshift 2.0!

PS I also recommend that you update the name somehow, if you miss the f in shift... i've had to re-read my posts several times to make sure! check out the posts by mark&jim from above =).

Yi Fong,

Thank you for the kind words. It was a pleasure working with you. I didn’t realize that we never wrote a users guide for GearShift (although we do have a tutorial and demo video on our web site) so I took the time to write one tonight so that others will have more guidance on how to use GearShift. I just have to proof read it tomorrow and I’ll get it up on the VASST site. I’m also working on a way to just use M2T files and DV proxies from the timeline like you originally wanted (stay tuned as I will contact you for beta testing). ;-)

Thank you for being so patient and for working through this with me. I know you were under project deadlines and you took the time to answer my questions to figure this out. We try to build the best products we can for our customers and when we fall short of your expectations, we try even harder. Thanks for your support of VASST.

~jr

in the end you probably cut my deadline down, which was what Gearshift was designed to do. =). Again, no probs.