Steve B, are any of the above going to earn you more money? Thats what I mean by revolutionary v. incremental / evolutionary. that must always be the acid test when shooting to pay the mortgage v. shooting as an enthusiast.

Seems to me that we are at a point right now where great things are bubbling up but not quite arrived.

If you fancy playing with some latest releases during the quiet season thats fine - I'm sure we all love doing that.

But if your current gear performs adequately I would hold fire.

Its sobering to remember that many brides are not even fussed whether their final product is SD or HD and request HD simply because its whats expected or its what was pushed at them in marketing!

Pete

Peter do you know you are quite correct! In seven years I have had just one query? guess what I was using a dslr all day and she did not like the out of focus bit behind at her guests hahaha. I did explain it was the film look bokeh and she said what's that. So yes it may be me as a mad lunatic forking out more money that I do not need to do. I do have four weddings left in the darkest areas and times so will just use a light cheers for bringing me down to earth.....

We all know half the skill of being a wedding videographer is the practical side of things. Most of my purchases are based on how to best get everything I should in the most efficient way. Actual video quality is secondary to that (only to an extent of course!).

Hi Steve

Most of us here are guys and, as you know, most guys are tech-heads and simply cannot resist getting something newer/better/faster

Our current gear does a great job and really doesn't need to be changed BUT we like to get new toys. Seriously I have also had just one pre-wedding question from a couple wanting to know if I shot in SD or HD in 10 years and never, ever has a bride asked me for a BluRay copy of their wedding.

Technically I could still be shooting in SD still on 5 year old cameras BUT I'm like everyone else and when a new camera comes out I want it!!

It's hard to control our desires sometimes because we take our cameras personally even though they are just a business tool! OK, I will hold off any new cams until at least mid 2015 I think as I bought my latest Sony's just 8 months ago

Chris

Almost every couple I had this year demanded I make the copies in Blu-Ray discs. That's the first thing they ask before they even sign the contract. I even had 2 clients for next year asking for UHD possibilities. I would have lost a lot of sales if I just even mention DVD's as the only option. Blu-Ray is the magic word for them. I just want to see what will happen when UHD televisions and broadcast standards will be the norm.

I just want to see what will happen when UHD televisions and broadcast standards will be the norm.

That will take another few years for this to be the norm in households and even then you can still supply a 1080p file and they will still love it. A lot of people also have 3d tv's what also was going to be the next big thing yet nobody is asking for it, if someone specifically would ask for a 4k recording then they have to find a videographer that does this but they can only hope he doesn't suck, but at least the image will be sharp. :) I think we videographers are the only ones that pixelpeep and worry about resolution and dynamic range, a client only gets slapped around the ears with so many marketing terms telling them it's what they need to get, yet they are happy with their 200 dollar camera shooting at a 7mbs avchd they can connect to their Triluminos-display, X-Reality PRO, basreflex-soundspeaker and NFC One-touch mirroring Motionflow XR 600 Hz tv so they can watch their holiday movies where they use the digital zoom handheld all the time.
When they then see our 1080p wedding video they will be surprised :)

[QUOTE=Chris Harding;1819618]Hi Steve

Most of us here are guys and, as you know, most guys are tech-heads and simply cannot resist getting something newer/better/faster

Our current gear does a great job and really doesn't need to be changed BUT we like to get new toys. Seriously I have also had just one pre-wedding question from a couple wanting to know if I shot in SD or HD in 10 years and never, ever has a bride asked me for a BluRay copy of their wedding.

Technically I could still be shooting in SD still on 5 year old cameras BUT I'm like everyone else and when a new camera comes out I want it!!

It's hard to control our desires sometimes because we take our cameras personally even though they are just a business tool! OK, I will hold off any new cams until at least mid 2015 I think as I bought my latest Sony's just 8 months ago

Spot on Chris, I don't think I have burned a BluRay in 4 years.. I agree we as men have our toys, just wish my wife saw it that way.. haha

I never really understood why people liked full frame so much for video. Cropped sensor is what high end digital film cameras like the Red Epic, Arri Alexa, and Sony F55 have. Super 35mm film cameras are not full frame either. I can understand someone saying, "The 5D Mark III is really good in low light, so that's why I want it," but not someone saying, "The 5D is full frame, so that's why I want it." I realize that you can achieve shallower depth of field with full frame, but cropped sensor with fast prime lenses will generally get one all the shallowness they'd need. I shoot with a C100 which produces a better image than any full frame camera out there (perhaps only rivaled by 5D Mark III RAW hack), which is one reason I don't see any advantage to full frame.

When I'm on Glidecam, having a deeper depth of field makes it easier to keep things in focus. I'd say a 1.5-6 crop finds a nice balance between not having too shallow of a depth of field, while also having a shallow enough depth of field to make things look nice. Another thing that bothers me with full frame is that often on a 70-200 at 200mm it's not tight enough of a shot for vows, while with a cropped sensor it generally is.

I never really understood why people liked full frame so much for video. Cropped sensor is what high end digital film cameras like the Red Epic, Arri Alexa, and Sony F55 have. Super 35mm film cameras are not full frame either. I can understand someone saying, "The 5D Mark III is really good in low light, so that's why I want it," but not someone saying, "The 5D is full frame, so that's why I want it." I realize that you can achieve shallower depth of field with full frame, but cropped sensor with fast prime lenses will generally get one all the shallowness they'd need.

They would say they want a full frame camera because of shallow DOF, or because a full frame camera is generally about two f/stops better in low light. We shoot weddings and use both, because each has advantages. So we decided we wanted a pair of full frames, then went and found what was right for us. And that is apart from the fact that at similar price points, the full frame will have less noise than crop factors (for instance, I can get a gently used 5d Mark ii or a 70D for around $1100. I recall seeing a chart showing the ISO noise as comparable at 70D IS0900 versus 5Dii ISO1600).

The full frame at f/2.8 would be about the same as the crop factor at f/1.8, OR, in a really dark room, let me keep the ISO at 2500 and shoot at f/1.8 where the crop factor, I'd have to push the ISO into some really noisy levels.

During the ceremony, when the light isn't such a problem, the crop factor let's our 200mm f/4 shoot a great, tight shot of the bride or groom's face and still be a respectful distance away. So we also have a pair of crop factors to use, too.

Full frame is for low light, on a crop a 30mm 1.4 or 50mm 1.4 are decent but the way I work gunning on a monopod I want full frame because I can then get a 24-70 tamron with Vc. Canon does not do apart from 35mm f2 I want stabilization. So the ISO can go to 6400 and with a 2.8 lens will be very good rather than shaky footage at 1.4. Don't want to use lights simples!!

The full frame at f/2.8 would be about the same as the crop factor at f/1.8, OR, in a really dark room, let me keep the ISO at 2500 and shoot at f/1.8 where the crop factor, I'd have to push the ISO into some really noisy levels.

"Full frame" and f-stop are not linked when it comes to low light, if that where the case a 5dII should have the same low light performance as a 5dIII since both are full frame, ISO and f-stop are, so it all depends how well a camera can handle high ISO's which can enable you to close down the iris more so you have a more usable dof while a camera that gets noisy much faster at a higher iso needs to open the iris much more resulting in a much shallower dof.

Kinda late to this thread, and I admit I haven't read every post fully, but here's my take….

We've been from all camcorders to all DSLR, then back to camcorders for some things and full frame DSLRs for others.

Why?

DSLRs (and in particular the 5D3) are awesome at two things:

1) Shallow DOF when you 'want' it

2) They can absolutely bite the nuts off a camcorder in low light.

OTOH they have a couple of major drawbacks:

1) The shallow DOF is a major PITA if you're stood at the front of a darkish church and you're trying to get both B+G in focus (from a side angle) while keeping the ISO low enough to not worry about noise. Even F8 won't do it sometimes (and the longer the lens, the more you need to stop down!). If you're at the back of a church and at 200mm f4 you still don't have enough DOF to get the B+G and minister in focus. You get to choose which, but you can't have both.

2) The short recording times (12mins 5D2, 20 mins D800, 29.59 5D3)

3) The poor audio support (although the 5D3 is not bad if you have an external feed)

They also miss the zebras and focus peeking and waveforms etc etc.

Batteries don't last long. Hell, my Canon XF100s run all day long on one battery while the 5D3 requires several changes, some of which need to be planned well if we're using them for dark environments for speeches that are dragging on.

There is no doubt, the 5D3 is the mutts nuts in low light. ISO6400 (if properly exposed) is usable. 8000 in a pinch. I've shipped footage shot at 12800 and not worried about it (a little kiss from neat video). You can just about shoot in the dark with a 24mm f1.4 lens, but then that's not a cheap one. Bars at a couple of venues come to mind for this setup. The camcorders just about die.

The 24-105L and 70-200 f2.8 are our normal goto kit with the 50 f1.4 and a couple of samyangs as backup.

But, there's no substitute for being able to throw the camcorder in to AF mode as the bride is walking towards you and the DOF afforded by the 1/3" chip gives you lots of room for error if people are moving around in speeches.

So, I'd hate to be back in the either/or camp. I like having both tools available to me, especially when I'm at a venue with crap (cough) "intimate" lighting with dark wood wall panels and I'm shooting a couple with dark skins. Oh man, the DSLR comes right out of bag then, no messing!

Damn. There's never a do all, be all piece of kit out there. Everything is a compromise and I guess it always will be.

My understanding is that low light capabilities are generally related to two factors, pixel size and the camera processor's capability of handling ISOs. The reason the 5D III is better in low light than the 5D II is because the III has an improved processor.

As for pixel size, the larger the pixels are physically on the sensor reading, the more light that can be gathered on the pixel.

The 5D III's sensor size is 36mm × 24mm and its sensor is 22.3 Megapixels. So a 36mm x 24mm sensor is 864 square millimeters, and 22,300,000 pixels / 864 square millimeters is 25,810 pixels per square millimeter.

The 7D's sensor size is 22.3mm × 14.9mm and its sensor is 18.0 Megapixels. So a 22.3mm × 14.9mm sensor is 332.27 square millimeters, and 18,000,000 pixels / 332.27 square millimeters is 54,173 pixels per square millimeter.

The C100's sensor size is 24.6mm x 13.8mm and its sensor is 8.3 Megapixels. So a 24.6mm x 13.8mm sensor is 339.48 square millimeters, and 8,300,000 pixels / 339.48 square millimeters is 24,449 pixels per square millimeter.

As for a 1/3" traditional video camera, the XH-A1s's sensor size is 4.8mm x 3.6mm and its sensor is 1.67 Megapixels (though it has three CCD chips, so I'm not sure how that effects things). So a 4.8mm x 3.6mm sensor is 17.28 square millimeters, and 1,670,000 pixels / 17.28 square millimeters is 96,644 pixels per square millimeter.

So to sum up the amount of pixels that are crammed onto a square millimeter...
5D Mark III: 25,810
7D: 54,173
C100: 24,449
XH-A1s: 96,644

The smaller the number of pixels that are crammed into a square millimeter, the larger the pixels are. The larger the pixels, the more light each pixel can gather. So based on those numbers, the C100 is slightly better in low light than the 5D Mark III, which actually reflects real world results as well. Of course, again, the camera's processor also has a say in the matter.

There is no doubt, the 5D3 is the mutts nuts in low light. ISO6400 (if properly exposed) is usable. 8000 in a pinch. I've shipped footage shot at 12800 and not worried about it (a little kiss from neat video). You can just about shoot in the dark with a 24mm f1.4 lens, but then that's not a cheap one. Bars at a couple of venues come to mind for this setup. The camcorders just about die.

The 24-105L and 70-200 f2.8 are our normal goto kit with the 50 f1.4 and a couple of samyangs as backup.

But, there's no substitute for being able to throw the camcorder in to AF mode as the bride is walking towards you and the DOF afforded by the 1/3" chip gives you lots of room for error if people are moving around in speeches.

So, I'd hate to be back in the either/or camp. I like having both tools available to me, especially when I'm at a venue with crap (cough) "intimate" lighting with dark wood wall panels and I'm shooting a couple with dark skins. Oh man, the DSLR comes right out of bag then, no messing!

Damn. There's never a do all, be all piece of kit out there. Everything is a compromise and I guess it always will be.[/QUOTE]

Exactly what im saying Dave nice one and that's my arsenal I want. unless a gh3 owner can tell me otherwise....

Would anyone swap their 5d iii for the c100? One push button focus, peaking, fantastic low light, great dynamic range or has the 5d iii got better shallow depth of field. steve

Just get the Sony A7, it will be out soon on the shelves. 1/2 the price of that 5D abd with the money saved will get you a few really nice primes to do your thing in low light.

Jeez Arthur, that looks decent, pheeew cant keep up..C100, 5d iii, sony rx10, sony a7, 70d, what else...

I would scratch off the C100, the 70d, even the 5D3, and seriously look at them Sony's. That auto focus on video mode will make shooting a wedding a breeze. This bokeh and DOF thing is way too hyped about. You can still get that effect with F2.8 if you know to manipulate distance and focal length. If you really want F1.4 territory, then the A7 has it with Carl Zeiss glass.

Would anyone swap their 5d iii for the c100? One push button focus, peaking, fantastic low light, great dynamic range or has the 5d iii got better shallow depth of field. steve

I'd swap in a heart beat if the C100 wasn't quite so expensive. I'm seriously considering picking one up though…..

The shallow DOF on the 5D3 is great, but can also be a problem (i.e. when you want more DOF). The C100 images are so much sharper and the C100 is even better in low light.

With the dual pixel AF mode coming next year as an upgrade, the C100 looks even better.

In fact, if any one has a C100 they would like to swap for a 5D3 (with some adjustment of course) then gimme a shout!

Haha nice one Dave it looks tempting alright, my wife is barking mad already at me looking at one but it does look easier to use than a dslr. Got all the lens and the body is £3700 but should come down soon. Arthur onto something though that a7 looks great!!

Arthur already there seems moire issues with the a7

Moire ?? then how about the 36mp version A7r ?

More expensive Arthur than the 5d iii...I think they are all gimmiks from Sony to just exploit the market and get those millions in...

Moire ?? then how about the 36mp version A7r ?

If the 36MP D800 was anything to go by, yes there will be moire (I shot with one for a season). More MP doesn't always mean better video.

Just get the Sony A7, it will be out soon on the shelves. 1/2 the price of that 5D abd with the money saved will get you a few really nice primes to do your thing in low light.

Take a look at this then…. comparison of moire & aliasing on the A7 vs 5D3.

Resolution / Aliasing / Comparison: Sony A7 vs. A7r vs. Canon 5D mark III cinema5D (http://www.cinema5d.com/?p=22118)

That's the one I saw Dave...

Would anyone swap their 5d iii for the c100? One push button focus, peaking, fantastic low light, great dynamic range or has the 5d iii got better shallow depth of field. steve

We've just gone all C100 and I have to say, this thing is utterly amazing. ISO 20,000 is just beautiful and clean. Peaking, continuous recording.

On the focus side, dont get too excited. Its just the same as pusing the AF button on your DSLR. It hunts, in, out, in out then settles. Its nothing like servo autofocus like you remember on the likes of the Z1 or any other dedicated video camera. In a word, its useless and not something you would ever use. Quicker to manually focus.

The question really is do you have the budget to upgrade? And, how old are your cameras? We give all our gear a 5 year life cycle. You will gain pretty much nothing by going full frame. My personal fav is the 7D for DSLR shooting. Even the C100 has a 1.3 crop. Low light, yes the MK3 is better but if light is that low that you need the MK3's extra power then things really must be dark and I would consider throwing a little wattage in there. Even shooting in a candlelit castle with the 7D I was happy with the results at ISO 1250 (shutter down to 30).

Thing with the C100 is the extra power only comes into play when you shoot using c-log. Which means all your cameras need to shoot with this really as its pretty hard to mix DSLR with c-log footage.

Switching brands you must also consider... what are you going to do with your significant lens investment? Make sure you can buy some adapters.

To be honest, I have no issue with the 5DMK2 and a 7D setup like we have.

Cheers Danny always great info from you. Yes sure my 60ds are still great and touch wood no comaints in 7 years. But it's just that time when the B&G don't want the lights on in a dark ambient environment. I have five in Knowsley hall next year and I tell you it's dark dungeon like. 1.4 50mm is ok at 1600 and neat video is good at fine tuning any noise but I am a geek and a 5d is in my thoughts and now a c100!!! Us men and toys ha

Also consider going for a shutter speed of 30. Breaks all the rules, blah blah blah but we use it all the time when we need a push and notice very little extra motion blur over 1/50.

C100 is great so far but it is a 1.54 crop, so like a 7d. Having to look at our lens bag as the 50mm is now more like 85mm telephoto.

Cheers Danny... I think the 5d iii is going to be my last camera buy, like you say the c100 will be hard to match my dslrs and I think the 5d iii will match better in cinema c profile which I love.. Work flow really is the same as the c100 all manual anyway, just you will have the peaking and other bits on the c100 but im used to the dslr run and gun so the 5d will fit in. Will you be using two c100s or will you try match to dslr? steve

We are now all c100 with a dslr as a backup camera.

Cheers Danny... I think the 5d iii is going to be my last camera buy

This year?
Before Christmas???
Until the next one????
I was so proud that I did not buy a camera this year... Except for the 70d that I just ordered... I sure hope they don't put that AF into a full frame camera! With a better codec. Damn technology!!! Why can't it just sit still for awhile????

This year?
Before Christmas???
Until the next one????
I was so proud that I did not buy a camera this year... Except for the 70d that I just ordered... I sure hope they don't put that AF into a full frame camera! With a better codec. Damn technology!!! Why can't it just sit still for awhile????

Ha ha, if it didn't, then the Uncle Bob's would catch up to us.

Boys and their toys! Bloody money it costs this game we are in

The choice of kit is almost endless with new toys being released in rapid succession.

The Panasonic guys have the GH4 in the pipe line 4K Panasonic GH4 May Arrive This Spring to Compete Against Canon Cinema Cameras No Film School (http://nofilmschool.com/2013/10/panasonic-gh4-4k-30fps-price-cost-rumor-canon-cinema/)

Sounds like a nice piece of kit.

Nope Matt two c100 on order for January... Early next year, three Peckfortan castle and dark, four knowsley dungeon and dark. Five Mottram hall and dark. Don't like Panasonic...

Nice toys. You will need them in Peckforton that is one dark castle to shoot in.

But who needs low light performance when you have a 1000watt blonde!!! Let there be light, and there was light.....

Haha nice one, Cant wait to get them babies for my new format out in January, keep watching kidda.....

Nope Matt two c100 on order for January... Early next year, three Peckfortan castle and dark, four knowsley dungeon and dark. Five Mottram hall and dark. Don't like Panasonic...

LOL so after all that you went with the C100 ?

I have to admit I was sorry to see the demo C100 go back….. definitely loved that camera. Still thinking about it.

Yep decided Dave got to stay ahead of the competition that watch your every move!!

Yep decided Dave got to stay ahead of the competition that watch your every move!!

Holy crap Steve ..... so thats how you managed to rationalise your gear lust :- )

Pete

Yep gone for it