The big news about this new Sony Cyber-Shot camera is how video-capable it is.

It has:
Fixed 24x200mm constant aperture f2.8 zoom
1080/60P
Built in 3-stop ND filters
Zebra
Peaking
Manual control audio

But the biggest surprise is the 1" sensor is fully scanned for video. No more line skipping. That means far less moire and artifacts.

Sony RX10 Review: Hands-On Preview (http://www.imaging-resource.com/camera-reviews/sony/rx10/)

"the new BIONZ X processor in the Sony RX10 has a special LSI front-end processing section ideally suited to processing huge amounts of video data on the fly. For the first time (that we're aware of), the RX10's processor clocks the entire 20-megapixel image off the array up to 60 times/second, and then sub-samples (think of it as a special class of signal averaging) the raw image data digitally, to produce the final 1,920 x 1,080 video image. Doing so effectively performs a low-pass filtering operation on the video data, thus greatly reducing the propensity for moiré and false color artifacts."

RX10 official sample video (24p) ???? - YouTube

Am i see moire and blown hightlights ? (see attachment)

Looking at the general quality of the video samples I see the same "compact camera feel" picture, not very sharp, low dynamic range, and medium level image stabilisation.

This is definitely not a game changer in videography, can't reach even a basic Sony EX1 level.

Some samples (made by cameraholders): Sony DSC RX10 video sample 3) - YouTube

I'd wait till someone who can hold the camera still gets their hands on it.... VERY poor handheld camera technique, and that's being generous.

Typically Sony needs a -EV adjustment (will clean up "blown highlights"), there is an adjustable dynamic range available on this camera (presuming it follows the RX100M2). If you don't swing the camera around like a drunken sailor, both the RX100M2 and the HX300 (which seem to both have some "DNA" in this new camera) perform quite well in video mode... giving a reasonably stable handheld image.

It's still very early to know what this camera can do in the right hands... I see lots of potential in a camera Sony clearly aimed to the video market. Considering those tile roof represent the ABSOLUTE worst case scenario for moire, I only saw a couple minor instances on my monitor...

I like the RX100's 1 inch sensors video a lot, in-fact its so good i'm surprised they haven't put it in a Handycam by now and invented a mini VG30.
If they really have improved the moire which was already very low, with that fantastic lens on the RX10 this will be a winner without doubt.

my concern is the overheat issue. I used a Nex-5n before, they heat problem is driving me crazy.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1817643

Quote:
The person who record this samples not set the correct camera parameter such as potrait color profile (-3 -3 -3) and the 180° degree shutter. This introduce a moire and scales in rolling shutter.

This is definitely not a game changer in videography, can't reach even a basic Sony EX1 level.


Just to clarify, you're expecting a point and shoot "pocket" camera to be a game changer in digital cinematography? And be better than a broadcast spec dedicated pro video camera that cost 5x the price?

This camera meets a very specific niche market. It is not a point and shoot by any definition (although I'm sure it can do just fine in "auto", if one wanted to pay $1300 for an "auto" camera). FULL manual controls are there (including in video), and it has definite "tuning" towards video.

Plus that's a mighty big "pocket" (or someone's REALLY happy to see you!).... most people seem to be thinking a pair in a backpack would provide a potent amount of both still and video capability (not sure why you'd need two... but...). While the sensor comes up from the RX100M2, which does qualify as a "pocket rocket", that lens is a beast...

I'd expect the video functions to go WAY over the head of the average "still" camera shooter, the RX100 was a bit of a challenge, even knowing what the settings do... takes time to appreciate what a small camera with a relatively large sensor CAN do when handled properly. And at least on the RX100/100M2, it takes a while to figure out how the controls work!

Once a few people who can operate a VIDEO camera properly have a play with this, then we will see what it can really do. It's an entirely new animal, with many "interesting" features - including a processor that supposedly handles 5k data flow off the sensor - makes me wonder if it could be tweaked to produce 4K output with a little work... I'm guessing the bottleneck is the memory throughput.

Probably won't "beat" an EX1, but sure will be easier to carry around, and I wouldn't bet it will be THAT much worse when handled by a pro... Won't be that long, we should know more!

Almost every sample that could have them has blown highlights. Really ugly sudden blow out. Is this due to the cam recording 109% and then the NLE cutting off highlights, or is it this bad?

Most people who shoot Sony will tell you that they can lean towards overexposure - usually dialing back the EV dial is all that's needed to prevent it.

The RX100M2 uses the same sensor, and I haven't noticed any problems with blown highlights, so it also could be pre-production firmware?

In the end, will have to have release cameras in hand to see for sure, but I doubt that there's a real problem there - I'm quite happy with the results from the 100M2... I don't see Sony screwing this one up, more likely that early reviewers haven't had enough hands on time to get a handle on the camera just yet, especially the video side (presuming they are "still" shooters). Even with "blown highs"/overexposure that are fixable with a turn of a dial, footage looks promising.

... It's an entirely new animal, with many "interesting" features - including a processor that supposedly handles 5k data flow off the sensor - makes me wonder if it could be tweaked to produce 4K output with a little work... I'm guessing the bottleneck is the memory throughput.



I wonder if the HDMI output could support 4K video. It implies 4K HDMI output but I assume for now that is stills. An external recorder on the HDMI would make a very nice unit.

To add to Dave's comment on over exposure every one of my Sony's over expose in auto. I shoot manual or -2 AE shift with the NX5U, AE shift on all the others from -.2 EV to -.75 EV on the CX700 and NX30U. Also a lot of NLE's will not manage Super white so would clip the highlights . So these sample may have several things working against them.

Ron Evans

This is going to be great. Can't wait to get my hands on one and try it out. Zebra, three steps of ND, clean HDMI out, clickless aperture, peaking for focus, optional XLR in... It also is half as much as a NEX-EA50 and if you were balking at the EA50 because you don't have lenses... well... the RX10 is your new video camera.

Ron -

The published specs say 4K output for stills (I wonder where the 5K throughput info came from, I've seen it a couple places, and it makes sense with the new Bionz X processor)... but everything about the hardware suggests 4K video should be "possible", if not enabled - I suspect it would take "too much, too fast" memory so they didn't put it in as a feature for this round. I certainly would like to have seen the option available, if only to get a toe or two wet in the 4K pool!

We know it's coming, it's even "here" in some cell/tablet devices... and right around the corner in new Sony camcorders. Honestly, I'm surprised the RX10 doesn't at least have SOME optional capability, but maybe a firmware update or it could be hacked... hmmmm....

It's still a pretty interesting camera with all that it DOES have, I think it'll be a big hit for Sony.

Encoding from the sensor to XAVCS for instance may need a fan to keep it cool just like the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100, bigger battery, like the 970 used in the 4K camcorders and the use of the QXD cards. I do not think that makes a lot of sense but if the output was HDMI 2.0 then an external recorder could record just fine in a larger unit with the power for the encoder etc. Would make a good companion to the FDR-AX1 or the PXW-Z100.

Ron Evans

Here is another sample that I found online.

The Sony RX10 Video at the State Fair - YouTube

im noticing a heck of a lot more motion macroblocking than usual, wonder if thats a youtube thing

My experience is it might be a Youtube thing. I notice it when I compare the same high motion video uploaded to my Youtube and Vimeo "plus" account. Big difference in their encoders and maybe bitrate.

Here is the manual for the RX10. Looks like this is a World camera, Pal/NTSC. Great news.
http://support.sony-asia.com.edgesuite.net/consumer/IM/4477083811.pdf

Not according to page 33... 60 OR 50...

Yes I did notice this prior to posting but I found on page 28:
PAL/NTSC Selector (only for 1080 50i compatible models)
By changing the TV format of the device, shooting in a different movie format is possible.

I guess this is a world camera for PAL users?

When one arrives into a local camera store I'll check it out

I also found this info on line for those that are interested.

Help Guide | How to Use (http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/wi-fi/dsc/2013-3/4530335111/eng/contents/contentslist01.html)

Well, on the one hand it would be good for "world" shooters, on the other, it means that 29 Minute clip limit would be harder to "ignore" or bypass.

It does appear it is an option in the setup menu, so that's where to look when you get hands on...

I see a iris and a zoom ring, does this camera have a dedicated focus ring or does that only function with touch or auto focus?

If it's the same as the RX100, ring is assignable to multiple functions, so could be focus, could be zoom, and when called by function buttons, can adjust other settings... plus memory presets with assignable buttons/functions.

One of the things about the RX100 is it takes a while to figure out what does, or can do, what... RX10 should be equally customizable to the users preferences, and equally "fun" to figure out! It's hard to explain, but I definitely had a learning curve with the 100!

I see a iris and a zoom ring, does this camera have a dedicated focus ring or does that only function with touch or auto focus?
From what I've seen, easiest to zoom with the right hand index finger rocker switch, then dedicate the left hand outer ring for manual focus, and the inner ring for iris.

Hope it's a world camera.

I think the Rx100Mk2 US-version can only do 60p. The European version can be switched to 50 or 60p. But I heard something that you can't use the highest AVC bitrate when you switch the European version to 60p. No idea if this is true so I'm confused now. On EOS HD was written that it is a world camera, but this guy tested the camera somewhere in Germany, so it wasn't a USA version.

Can the RX10 do both: 60p 28M(PS)/50p 28M(PS) ? That is the question for me and the reason why I have not pre-orderd it yet. Maybe I have to buy one when I'm back in Germany for Christmas vacation but sure in the US it's cheaper. Would love to know that to do my preorder for this perfect travel camera.

Why preorder? Better wait until it's available and check at the store, this is not a black magic camera, Sony has a bit better controll over their delivery schedule :)

Yes you are right about that. However there is something special about to be one of the first persons who get this camera. I got one of the first Sony Ex1 in Germany for example.

But sure consumer products like this will be available in every store without any problem.

I just read somewhere the tilting screen cannot be operated with the Sony XLR mic attachment fitted. Just today I saw where the titling screen was lowered, yes it goes down... which makes me think it won't work on a tripod. Hope I'm wrong.

The thing that is worrying me most above all else about this camera which on the surface offers so much, does it have some sort of gamma curve adjustment with knee in the settings? Don't think so from looking at the instructions posted so far.

I am looking in vain for a sample video from the RX10 that doesn't have burnt out highlights in sunny conditions. I downloaded one from Vimeo in the original 1080/P60 format which on Vimeo looked ok and watched it playing in Edius in all it's glory via my Storm 3G hardware (50/60P capable) to a high quality large screen HDTV and the waveform meter confirmed what I thought, the bulk of the sky was at 109IRE and severly clipped.

May be I hope for too much but still hoping, perhaps when the full manual is available more will be revealed.

All the Sony's I have ever owned over expose in auto. I have all of them in AE shift when I shoot in auto the newer ones at -1.0EV. AVCHD shoots superwhite so will be maxed at around 110 ire. I correct all afterwards in Edius with yuv filter before going to DVD. If the user in this case just pointed the camera and pressed the button it will over expose !! Most of the videos I have seen on the internet are shaky hand held with slow frame rate and shutter !!! There are a few with nice tripod shots though. It will be interesting to see if this sensor is used in a real camcorder version.

Ron Evans

All the Sony's I have ever owned over expose in auto.
Ron Evans

My experience too. When shooting with the HX20v and the HX200v I invariably reduce exposure about 1 stop using the exposure compensation device.
Gordon Laing has posted an mts file Sony Cyber-shot RX10 sample movie: static zoom on Vimeo that he shot with the camera set to 60p while balancing it on a window sill. The sky looks somewhat blown out however when I dropped the file into Vegas Pro 12 and played around there is detail there so I found that encouraging. Perhaps the new Bionz processor really is a significant improvement and the traditional short-comings of these cameras no longer apply as well as delivering better dynamic range. Whatever, we shall see. The good news is that there is an exposure compensation wheel right there under one’s thumb.

That's the video I downloaded, here is a screenshot of the Edius waveform meter where I see the sky is clipped sharply at 109 IRE.

Ron, not only AVCHD format records super whites, MPEGII format was just the same on my old Sony V1E and also with my current cam the EX1R. It's the camera that decides what to do with overdone highlights, compress them or not. If the camera has an adjustable knee setting in it's gamma curve then it can roll off the exposure at the top end of the scale. I was hoping the RX10 might have something similar, I will of course keep an open mind but there is so much unknown about the inner workings right now.

For instance how does the internal ND work? Because it's internal I read suggestions it may simply be an electronic attenuator following the sensor, how about that, oh and it was proved to be effective, wow...

Just one thing, has anyone noticed in the full quality download video the power lines appear to be broken into little pieces? Similar to watching fields instead of frames. You need to see the fully zoomed up part, I saw it on Edius computer screen and put it down to scaling artifacts but it's still there out onto my Panasonic HDTV. Perhaps US power cables are not smooth? Not sure about this, is it just me seeing it? If not, maybe it's because instead of line dropping from the sensor this cam re-samples the whole lot and it's "interpolation" effects?

Yes Claire I know that other cameras and formats expose super white but was just referring to RX10 and AVCHD. Applying AE shift to my cameras that do not have independent knee controls seems to solve this problem and even my NX5U used this way is better.

I am downloading the original to see if I can see the power line issue you noticed.

Ron Evans

I can see the power line issue too in Edius and Vegas 12. Not really visible when played but definitely there when stopped on a frame.

Ron Evans

Thanks for checking this Ron, I see it in motion (60P) on a 32" screen as a vertical dither or "trembling" just on these cables , not to be confused with the camera shake. BTW the WD Live TV Hub will also display 60P if you have one.

I do suspect this is likely to be an effect from the downscaling in the camera. It must be a fast processor indeed to manage this in real time at 60P and remain very good quality, Maybe better this than simply skipping lines from the sensor.

As Ron mentions, Sonys overexpose in many situations, easily rectified by EV - adjustment. Doesn't worry me for one second, my thumb is already "muscle trained" from shooting HX series cams! VERY easy to adjust the cameras "intelligent" auto to reflect a bias towards a "better" exposure when needed - I think they try to retain shadow detail vs. highlight detail, where I would lean the other direction in "most" cases...


I'd observe that that sample looks like many a "hazy" day - not sure where it was shot, but many cities have smog/haze that looks just like that in real life - it's not "blown out", it's just this "stuff" hanging in the air! The joys of living in a city, where you get to chew your air!

There is significant "handheld" camera bounce at full zoom, and when I paused, most of the time the wires looked pretty good as "stills" - when "rolling", I saw what could have been camera 'bounce", OR quite possibly atmospheric distortion - at that distance if there was any heat coming off of nearby concrete/asphalt surfaces, the wires could well have appeared "wavy" and distorted - I had this recently while shooting aircraft taking off - at the far end of the runway, there was HUGE distortion from ground heat waves "shimmering", when zoomed!

I would be more focused on the apparently fine detail on the nearby buildings than by a distant object at high zoom... Half the fun of having high zoom is being able to shoot at great distances, but as a practical matter, you have to expect stabilization to be pushed to, or past, it's limits, and that there is a strong possibility of atmospheric distortion between you and the "target". Heat, moisture, dust, haze, smog... all can drastically reduce effective "visibility", even if you have optics capable of resolving at long distances and a stable platform!

I've done some "moon" shots with an HX300 - you need a stable tripod or monopod, and a CLEAR night to get best results - again, a little wind (dust) or light clouds, you lose a lot of detail.


So far, I've been unimpressed with the skill of the handlers of this new "toy", but very impressed with what I'm seeing that IS there. I know that MOST of the reviews are coming from the STILL side of the equation, where this is a "good" camera, but not necessarily overly impressive when compared to APS-C or FF per se, and at first glance is "overpriced"... but when you come at it from the VIDEO side, with a relatively HUGE sensor, dedicated video features, and a darn fast lens, it starts to actually look pretty reasonable...

Much of the reviewer "interpretation" of this new toy much be taken with that "bias" in mind - as with all "reviews" and "test footage", there are SO many places to fly off the track, where in real life this may perform rather unexpectedly well once video-centric people get their mitts on it!

I am fascinated by the design/concept, as it does very much cross the two disciplines in ways not ever before seen - Sony has been moving this way for a while, and it's starting to be VERY usable, not just a marketing "feature".

Just wonder when we will see this sensor in a real camcorder ? Or if there will be a camcorder version of the RX10. Maybe a fixed lens version of the EA50 with 4K !!!! Video is clearly an objective of the camera with the clean HDMI being stated as a means of external recording to overcome the time limit. If it had the spot focus etc menu items of my CX700 it would be a good replacement for an unattended camera in my theatre shoots with a Ninja 2 or Odyssey. WiFi remote would be good too

Ron Evans

I guess I've been shooting video with "still" cameras long enough now that I think of them as "real camcorders" <wink>. I'm finding that the HX300 and RX100M2 are working quite well as a pair for both stills and video - each has its strengths and weaknesses - the RX10 seems to bring the two together in a good way.

Aside from the 29 minute clip limit and some of the Handycam features like touch focus/exposure, nightshot, and the form factor, you are shooting "real video". There is not a lot to complain about in terms of video quality in the current generation of "still" cams, and I am actually quite comfortable with the ergonomics. I don't feel like I am "missing" something when I leave the video camera(s) sitting home... the RX100 OTOH, is right up there with the smart phone - just seems like you should have it with you!

Sure, I'd like to see a full rotating LCD that can flip to protect the screen when off, touch functionality is of course "nice", and dump the clip limit... but each of those things I'd classify as "minor annoyances" compared to what IS already there. I do hope they will figure out a path to 4K output as well, I am surprised it isn't "there" with this generation release...


I'm.not sure Sony can make a "magic eyeball" imaging block version of the RX10, but it would be "interesting"... Sony VIDEO division certainly needs to up its game to keep up with some very aggressive and innovative initiatives coming from the STILL camera side. They risk becoming irrelevant in a company that is looking for cuts to improve the financials... I could see the consumer Cybershot and Handycam lines being phased out due to cell phone prevalence in the market.... They MUST innovate, should be interesting to see what comes from that!

I found this on YouTube, shot on the Sony RX10.

????? ??25??????? ???? Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 - YouTube

The image stabilization seems to be very efficient, even at full zoom but I noticed the image gets softer then so not sure if some digital zoom was at play. Sound also seems to be good, I only can't get rid of the feeling that the images looking very "video-like" to me which might make it harder to match with a regular dslr. Still waiting to see some shots in the hands of a experienced person.

I expect to have one of these to test in the next couple of days,: what would you like to see in terms of a test?

DR, DR at different ISOs, Spread of DR above and below neutral gray.

what would you like to see in terms of a test?

That would be great, I think what especially weddingshooters would like to know is how much shallow dof you can achieve, don't know if you can compare to a dslr, like a 7d? And how well it can handle high (3200) iso and again it would be great to see how it would compare to a regular dslr. I"m asking much but you never know what is possible. :)

And here is one more RX10 I found on YouTube. I reckon that this little camera is a winner for a point and shoot. Cant wait to get one.

??????????????????RX10?????? - YouTube

Where I think this camera might sit well is with journalists and basic News gathering due to its size and complete package. The Image looks good enough for low end broadcasting and a perfect Broll camera for behind the scenes etc...

I have only ever been impressed by this camera on paper, not one of the multiple videos I have ever seen from this camera has ever impressed me whatsoever in any way.

And here is one more RX10 I found on YouTube

Colour and sharpness looks great, but I see that on the faces especially burned out highlights when it gets hit by a spotlight, I think the way the camera deals with the highlights is it's Achilles heel.

I totally agree with highlight handling, all the clips that I have seen show blown out hot spots. Fun camera I reckon with ability to take stills.

i'll hold my judgement till i get it and put it in neutral with contrast dialed down

Based on my experience with the RX100, there should be lots of adjustability, meaning lots of opportunity to also "get it wrong" with this camera. Took me a while to get a handle on the RX100... now I don't hesitate to shoot video with the RX100M2...

I'd suggest start with the EV shift to the negative side (overexposing being well documented to be a Sony tendency), and also fiddle with the DRO setting...