Sonyalpharumors states that Sony says the RX10 has less power consumption than the RX100MII, so it will have less overheating issues.

Actually, they linked to this article about Sony cameras:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/12/04/sony-interview-what-does-it-take-to-change-the-camera-game

I have been away for a week shooting in the bush with no net coverage and just got out, has anyone bought the RX10? and if so please let me know how this camera is going so far.

Cheers

I got it, will be using it on a wedding next week, will let you know how it went.

Fantastic mate, look forward to all the good and not so good opinions that you have with this camera.

I've posted my rather lengthy write up of my thoughts after using the RX10 for about a week...

A truly first of it's kind bridge camera with a versatile lens and tons of good details (http://www.mediahalo.com/articles/rx10review/)

Nice writeup. Looks like a great cam.

thanks, there's also now plenty of videos to look at

https://vimeo.com/groups/219595

Thanks Darren for that write up. Cheers

I think my main obstacle in this camera is the lack of 1080p30 output. It's just so odd that Sony includes 1080p60 (a non standard) and neglects a standard format like 30p... Forcing you toss half the data (in a challenged codec) to get it.

My guess is that this camera is just a test bed for a camera that will incorporate the Full readout into 4K, and they just want to get feeback to fine tune the camera that will become their entry into mass market 4K.

maybe for a consumer 4k product, but they already have their fs700 and beyond for the pro market 4k stuff.

considering theres now even phones shooting 4k, they have less and less of an excuse to put it off. Though i think if with the rx10 if they had even just done something like 2.5K, all other shortcomings would have been blown to the gutter and people would be raving about it

As I have mentioned, my FDR-AX1 has a fan and gets hot. It is the encoder I am sure and not the sensor readout. I say this as my i7 3770, 16G RAM etc takes about 3 or 4 times realtime to encode to XAVCS !!!! A lot of compute power is needed to encode. An external 4K encoder/ recorder would be the answer and a body with a bottom connector much like a lot of DSLR external battery boxes would do the trick I think. This would provide a better performance than the 1/2.3" sensor in the FDR-AX1 I am sure. Maybe even an upgrade to the FDR-AX1 or the AE50 !!!

Ron Evans

This is where the performance of that Bionz X processor comes into review - supposedly it is already crunching 5K into 1080p, so at least the "front end" appears to already be in place. We know the HDMI is able to display 4K, at least for stills, one "frame" at a time...

I still think the memory is the bottleneck, and we will have to see either a faster spec MSPD or SDHC card or yet another "new" (meaning EXPENSIVE, thus not fit for consumers, at least initially) memory format - the 4K cameras so far seem to require an entirely new memory format ($$$).

The thermal question is of course part of this equation, but it does look like Sony made some breakthroughs with this sensor/processor to keep heat under control and still process the large data stream.

Rumor is that there will be a 4k Alphas announced soon, so it shouldn't be TOO long, and the RX series will undoubtedly be "upgraded" in due time - it seems to be their "cutting edge" in camera innovation to replace the niche once held by "P&S" cameras.

I got the new BMPCC on Friday and the RX10 arrives Monday.
I'll definitely have to find some time to shoot the two together when I'm setting them up.

Memory is the cost bottleneck but the thermal issue is the encoder I am sure. Lowering the bitrate may help the cost but not the encoder as this will have an increasing task as bit rate goes down. Memory has a speed/cost issue when encoding rate goes up !!! You can see this with the spec differences between the PXW-Z100 using XAVC 10bit 4:2:2 codec and the FDR-AX1 XAVC-S 8bit 4:2:0 encoder. One has a max data rate of 600Mbps the other 150Mbps. A 64G card for the PXW-Z100 last about 12 mins and costs $320 the N series card for the FDR-AX1 lasts 56mins and costs $199. Data rate will be of the order of 5 to 7 times AVCHD realtime so something has to process this and this is not energy free !!! Still cameras already overheat shooting AVCHD, at 7 times the data rate they will not be cool for long !!! The FDR-AX1 will shoot 1920x1080 at 50Mbps I do not see much of a difference to the NX5U at 24Mbps though as I have not done a lot of testing.

Ron Evans

@Ron -

There's definitely no "free lunch" - up your data rate, it'll cost ya! My main observation was that this PARTICULAR sensor/processor combo supposedly is taking the data off the chip at full rez and dealing with it, albeit crunching it down to 28Mbps 1080p (or whatever the user chooses). Not sure how much difference there is between crunching it down and outputting a 4k "stream"... somehow it seems like it shouldn't be that bad? But going from indications on the Z100 and AX1, memory is a SERIOUS bottleneck/expense/format issue.

I know the NEX APS-C sensors are notorious due to tiny body size, but I've not run into issues with the larger body Alphas, and the RX100/M2 seem to be fine heat wise... it's not a guaranteed headache, just a common one. There are anecdotal reports that the type of memory used can affect the heat problems too, so again, there may be something about trying to stuff larger data streams into certain memory cards...

Ahh, the joys of the bleeding edge...

The FDR-AX1 will shoot 1920x1080 at 50Mbps I do not see much of a difference to the NX5U at 24Mbps though as I have not done a lot of testing.

Ron Evans


I haven't done much testing either but I would expect a difference because...

1) The chips in the NX5U are not full HD chips. They are about half that and play offset pixel interpolation tricks to synthesize a FullHD image. The payoff for Sony at the time was bigger pixels/greater light sensitivity. The FDR-AX1 doesn't need to do this to get a FullHD image so I would be a bit shocked if it didn't have a higher resolution image.
2) It has been demonstrated the FDR-AX1 low light sensitivity is nothing to write home about. The standard tradeoff made for a higher resolution (smaller pixels) image.

For Dave: The data rate for 4K on the FDR-AX1 is max 150Mbps or about 19MBps well within the data rate for SD class 10 cards. I can certainly read and write to my Patriot class 10 EP cards at this rate. Spec is 35MBps write 50MBps read The 600Mbps for the PXW-Z100 is 4 times this so more than a SD card can do at the moment until the new series is available. Readout from the sensor and scale in a fixed ratio is likely an easy hardware task but encoding in longGOP at an acceptably low data rate is not easy and requires a lot of compute power. As I think I mentioned in an earlier post it takes my i7 3770 with 16G RAM a long time to encode XAVCS, far from realtime. As an example in Vegas 12 with a FDR-AX1 60P 11 sec clip on the timeline and just render back to the same thing XAVC-S with no effects at all my PC took 97 secs at Turbo boost running at 4Mhz. It took 19 secs to scale the same clip to 1920x1080 AVCHD 60P. So it took 5 times longer to do the encode to XAVC-S format. So the general CPU can not quiet do realtime scale but should be easy hardware task.

Bill: I am aware of the sensor layout for the NX5U. The bigger sensor allow better signal to noise ratios and are about 2 times the size of the actual 1920x1080 pixels and the interpolated pixels will take the values from 4 surrounding sensors to arrive at a value. With data array smoothing this interpolation should be reasonable. Since almost all camcorders process the sensor output to smooth date, correct for fault sensors etc etc whether the data comes from a 1:1 sensor pixel arrangement or an interpolated/corrected array is in my mind no difference as long as the apparent pixel size is the same. In the case of the NX5U this is the case. The NX5U sensor issue is that they are old design sensors !!!!

My comparisons are to setting the FDR-AX1 to 1920x1080 and comparing. This will be an internal scale and I have not done a lot of comparisons but the few I have done do not see a startling difference. Very much like my NX30 or CX700 sort of image and very close to my HX30V still camera which I am presuming has the same sensor !!! I expected to see an obvious improvement since it would be recording at 50Mbps XAVC-S not 24Mbps etc. The downscaled image in Edius using Lanczos 3 though is lovely but as you say needs light !!! It is between 1 and 2 stops slower than the others close to the HX30V though !!!! . It took me a year to get my NX5U set up with picture profiles etc so comparing to a default set up for the FDR-AX1 may not be fair. A downside to the FDR-AX1 is that although there is a paint function there is only one and no on off setting on a button !!! A backward step as others on the camcorder. Hopefully a future firmware update will improve the camcorder.

The FDR-AX1 with the RX10 sensor would be nice though !!!

Ron Evans

Just to get this thread back on track; has any owner of this camera been shooting with it yet? Normally I plan to go to the city Bruges this week to shoot some footage, just to get some hands on experience as I plan to use the camera at a wedding this Saturday. I have been going through the menu just now and assigning functions to the buttons on the camera for quick access, this camera has some powerful functionality.

I assigned the iso settings to the scroll wheel so while I"m shooting I can scroll the wheel and the iso values pop up and go up or down depending what direction you turn the wheel so that's an instant change while you turn the wheel, that was what I missed most on my nex-ea50, this makes changing Iso during run and gun a breeze.

I also assigned the nd filter to a button which requires pushing one button to bring up the nd selection and then use the scroll wheel to go up/down and press enter to activate, takes 2 secs to activate the nd filter, awesome. :)

I also have the audio levels assigned to a button, just press it and it pops up and use the scroll wheel to in- or decrease the volume. Then I also have one button which brings up 12 other functions in a small menu I can scroll through to change any other value quickly, I can also change from manual to auto focus with teh press of a button and the peaking does a very good job, Sony has really given this some good thought.

One thing I don't like is the speed of the zoom, don't know why but in standy mode the zoom speed is slow but ok to use, only in record mode it becomes much slower, up to the point that it's too slow for real life use. must be a setting I hope.

The very few test shots I made are bloody sharp and I"m able to get sufficient shallow dof, what I had hoped for, setting exposure with the zebra's is real easy and the iris ring is buttery smooth, I did notice that burned highlights issue I have seen in other videos but I find it's mainly a matter of setting your exposure right manually and if necessary bring the highlights back to 100 (even with what seemed to have a correct exposure the highlights where at 110 ire.)

has any owner of this camera been shooting with it yet?

https://vimeo.com/groups/219595

I was expecting some written experience :) I've seen the footage so far, but was more asking how users are experiencing the camera so far.

Comon Noa, catchup on the thread before asking, i posted this just the last page, and there's a lot of write-ups to be googled

Sony RX10: A truly first of it's kind bridge camera with a versatile lens and tons of good details. Review (http://www.mediahalo.com/articles/rx10review/)

first page of google...

Photography blog
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/sony_cybershot_dsc_rx10_review/

Imaging resource
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/11/26/sony-rx10-review-bridge-camera-beauty-change-mind-interchangeable-lenses

Pocket Lint
http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/125373-sony-cyber-shot-rx10-review

ephotozine
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/sony-cyber-shot-rx10-review-23331

I have seen those but I am still asking for user experiences in general, is that ok for you? I thought this was a forum...

absolutely, but that's not what you wrote and what i responded to. perhaps you meant it another way

I think it's clear by now what I"m asking, no need to continue to make a point as it doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion.

I was expecting some written experience :) I've seen the footage so far, but was more asking how users are experiencing the camera so far.

Mine arrives tomorrow and I'll be shooting it all week beside the new BMPCC.

Glad to hear you're getting on with yours Noa - I am holding off as other holiday expenses take precedence!

Even though I don't have one in hand, experience with the RX100/M2 (and to some extent the HX100-300 series) gives me a fair estimation of how the camera will "feel", and I look forward to getting at least one - I am selling a few other things that it will replace, maybe if enough of them go to good new homes, I'll bag one. I have a serious natural aversion to paying "retail", but the RX10 is dangerously close to overcoming that... and Santa has been notified, extensively! I also know there will be some of these come up lightly used when "average users" discover this camera is WAAAAAAY over their heads, and they can't figure out how to use it - it always happens!


The reports of the slow zoom seem to be a "feature", hopefully something firmware can address.

I think what you're wondering about is what "user customized menus" are people finding useful? That is a good discussion question, as the camera has a lot of room to customize. ISO, WB, DRO, and EV shift were my main choices on the RX100/M2 (IIRC up to six selections pulled up by the Fn button) - EV shift has it's own dial on the RX10, and up to 12 options... kid, meet candy shop...

My best suggestion is to notice what functions you use often, and assign them to the fastest button combo that is memorable to you. I've found that the RX and HX series Sony cams have similar button layouts, and after a while you find you've developed reflex memory for most common functions - at that point you're no longer thinking about shooting, it just becomes fluid, and even more "fun" because the camera no longer is getting in the way, it becomes a natural extension of your "creative animal"! I know this sounds "strange", but hopefully it will be useful to you!

Enjoy shooting, look forward to your experiences, even as I wait to get hands on one myself, shooting with my none too shabby RX100M2!

Mine arrives tomorrow and I'll be shooting it all week beside the new BMPCC.

That would be interesting eventhough they are 2 completely different camera's in functionality and output.

That would be interesting eventhough they are 2 completely different camera's in functionality and output.

Chalk and cheese perhaps, though which is which? My RX10 arrives later this week and I have had several weeks already to come to gripes (that’s not a typo) with the BMPCC and I’m not complaining about the picture.

You just know I shall have some fun comparing these machines.

That would be interesting eventhough they are 2 completely different camera's in functionality and output.

Of course they are.
I happened to get both at the same time for upcoming work - thought they could make complimentary small systems.
It's not comparison testing, its working with them to get to know them and integrate them into our kits.
The RXi0 you can just pick up and shoot, both of the BMCs take a good deal of finessing, but deliver a superlative image for film and TV work.

Dave: thx for your thoughts, I find the rx10 a bit overwhelming to start with, like with the pana gh3 there is a plethora of functions which not only help using the camera but have a impact on the image and you need to spend a lot of time going through each one of them to reach the full potential of the camera. It doesn't have the ease of use my nex-ea50 had but that's too much to expect from a photocamera but it's certainly the first one ever that reaches out further to videographers, from what I read so far photogs where not so positive in general about the camera and found it too expensive, seeing what it offers for video I think it's cheap.

I also see many people complaining about the codec and wishing it had a option to select a better one as well like you can with the gh3 but the included avchd codec is as good as it gets, unless there is something else going on that has an impact on image quality, I see macroblocking on fast movement with my cx730 as well so that's nothing new but never had a client noticing it, it's also a good thing I don't shoot fast action sport with this camera :) If I have to believe some reviewers the macroblocking can get so bad the footage becomes unusable but like I said unless something else is going on that I am not aware about yet those comments are pretty exaggerated, I shoot avchd 50p almost exclusively and never had to trow away a shot because it was not usable. Asking Sony to give us something better with a firmware update is pretty useless because nex-ea50 users know by now that will never happen, unless they bring out a new model which will include those functions.

If all goes well I hope to have some useful footage from the city Bruges by the end of this week, with or without macroblocking :)

You just know I shall have some fun comparing these machines.

I had a long thought about the bmcpc as well but I had to be honest that for my paid work this camera would be useless, the rx10 however will be used until the lens falls off. :) The only comparing I will be doing is with my gh3 as I need to find a matching picture profile before Saturday.

The RXi0 you can just pick up and shoot, both of the BMCs take a good deal of finessing, but deliver a superlative image for film and TV work.

I thought you where planning on comparing both camera's which explains my comment but I agree that the rx10 is much more a run and gun camera what the bmcpc never will be, eventhough many people say otherwise. As I see it the bmcpc has a much steeper learning curve to get the most out of it but if you manage to master it the footage can shine in a way the rx10 will be never able to. Only from what I have seen so far on Vimeo just very few seem to master that skill. I also think the rx10 takes quite some experience as well, you can just pick it up and press the rec button but several footage I have seen so far also show people are using the camera in a wrong way.

Can anyone comment on how a RX10 might match up to an EX1R? Thinking about event shooting where the big cam could run sound and have the small camera(s) as cutaways and closeup angles. Are talking "Sony" color here? Mainly thinking about if reds/blues/purples will look similar enough. Minor color correction is of course expected, but are they at least in the same vein?

Can anyone comment on how a RX10 might match up to an EX1R? Thinking about event shooting where the big cam could run sound and have the small camera(s) as cutaways and closeup angles. Are talking "Sony" color here? Mainly thinking about if reds/blues/purples will look similar enough. Minor color correction is of course expected, but are they at least in the same vein?

I've used the EX1 a lot, and yes it has that certain sony character to the image. I do see some of that same character in the rx10, but it definitely has a character of it's own, not better or worse, just different. And while it doesn't have nearly the same image control, i think there's enough settings to get it somewhat close to the EX1 in camera, and then tweak the colors to match it better in post. I've done shoots where i've mixed 5d2 and EX1 with satisfaction, so if sony and canon colors can be made to cut together, certainly sony to sony can be. keep in mind we're talking sony consumer colors vs sony pro colors, which i do see a distinct difference.

Today I found out the camera handles highlights just fine, and look at all that macroblocking! That's avchd at it's worst :) The codec is fine too as long as you don't blow up the image 400% and put your nose against the screen.

BRUGGE on the Sony RX10 on Vimeo

Ah, that is exactly the footage I need to see. Done I'm sold on this. Noa was this recored to cards in the camera?

I"m currently uploading a higher quality sample so the video can't be watched for a while, you can download that to have a look and yes this was recorded to a sdhc card in camera.

Great, thanks Noa.

Here's what I'm loving about this and DanC's footage from the Grand Canyon - so many detailed backgrounds that would be screaming moire and aliasing on a GH3 or 5D or BMC look amazingly clean and maintain their detail regardless of the codec.

I haven't taken it out yet but have shot some lit interior/skin tone tests and side by side with the BMPCC to see if they could cut together reasonably.

So here's the kicker; after testing them with the same model and lighting, BMPCC with primes at matching FLs, the RX10 was still too strong (for my creative taste) even at Natural -3, -3, -3

I use Filmconvert as the LUT for my BMPCC footage so I chose a generic RGB curve that I figured would match the RX10 and boy does it map that Nat -3-3-3 to a really nice color space and gamma curve. It takes the RX10 footage to a whole other look and the natural "organic" look that I like.

I'll post a couple of stills tomorrow.

Jim, please post film convert settings. Sounds very interesting.

I'll post a couple of stills tomorrow.

That would be very helpful, thx, at the shoot in Bruges I was expecting moire or aliasing but I really have to look to see anything that is bothering me and I deliberately panned most shots to see how the camera would deal with this fine detail. with my canon 550d that would have been a moire hell with those small bricks and I"m sure that would be the case with any canon dslr offering below the 5d mark 3. I do see some subtle banding in the blue sky while I was panning the camera in some shots, most certainly a limitation of a 8 bit camera and the avchd codec.

It's also a very sharp image coming out of this camera and it deals very nicely with high contrast scenes after you dial back the contrast in camera. I found it very easy to set my exposure with the zebra's, even from a reflective small lcd screen in full sunlight. Only for fine focusing I need to use a loupe, the peaking is good but sometimes it clutters the image with all white edges and it's hard to see what exactly is in focus.

I don't understand why some people complain about the codec, yes it is stressed when you shoot highly complex and detailed scenes with lots of motion and yes you see it when you take out a frame and magnify it to pixelpeep. I even read about one "reviewer" that had to take some images out of a shoot as they where unusable according to him which I think is nonsense.

Everything I shoot is avchd 2.0 50p and I never had a client saying that the shades look like mud or that there is macroblocking visible, why? Because you just don't notice until you freeze-frame an image and start blowing it up, but honestly, who and why would you do that unless you are making a high end film or commercial that's going to be published on national tv or cinema, but then you use a Red or similar camera, not a 1200 euro 8 bit dslr. For those seeking better image quality at a low price point there is still the bmcpc but let's be honest, after seeing what people publish with this camera it is a much more difficult camera to get good footage from, I even saw footage from a more experienced shooter that shot outside in the snow to find out it looked so bad even colourcorrecting couldn't solve the problem. A camera problem? No, a wrong setting during the shoot. I will take the rx10 on a paid shoot soon with minimal experience and I will go with enough confidence it will perform as expected, I know I would be nervous taking a bmc pocket cam along.

I was forced to use the RX10 as a backup camera at a church service last week - absolutely no room for my usual backup cam. I have to say, I was quite blown away by the quality of the footage! Only thing I really need is an android app that lets me control the video functions... is this available? Set it up as an extra cam during speeches and the results were not that great... but there was appalling lighting conditions in the room. Absolutely delighted with this - sold my 7d to pay for it. Think this will be getting a lot better usage from me!

Love the footage I'm seeing from you guys...

If the light is really low, try shutter priority and 30 rather than the "default" 60, you'll buy a bit more headroom, as long as there's not "too" much motion. Found that helpful with the 100/M2. I was able to get close to the low lux modes on7xx series Handycams that way, and with the f/2,8, should be pretty good...

Only thing I really need is an android app that lets me control the video functions... is this available?

According to the Sony site it's available as an App, too bad I have a windows 8 phone, When you set the camera up during the speeches, what was not so good about the footage?

I was able to get close to the low lux modes on7xx series Handycams that way

The cx series also switch to 1/25th shutter in low lux mode, what also should help quite a lot on the rx is to dial down contrast and saturation in the standard preset, that will show more in darker area's, you can always add both in post when needed.

Very nice footage Noa. You have clearly demonstrated what the RX10 is capable of in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing; how refreshing. Good on you, and thanks for posting.

I have one on the way. It’s coming (and so is Christmas). Courier service here is still done on horseback, or so it seems. Good to know that when it does finally arrive the last thing I need to worry about is the codec!

Good to know that when it does finally arrive the last thing I need to worry about is the codec! And you where right as usual, it has 14 stops of dynamic range so you finally can sell your pocketcam. ;)

Ha ha, well, you never know it just might come in handy even if I can't imagine what for right now. A couple of things I have learned from my experience with the Pocket cam (other than it doesn't fit in my pocket) is that it is quite OK, not a terrible sin, to sometimes crush the blacks and blow out a highlight here and there. And that there is more BS spoken about DR than you can shake a stick at :-)

the wifi apps thing is one area where sony needs to cut the BS on, all the functionality is there, yet is mostly not available for the rx10. you can only do basic photo shooting with it, while im told even the rx1002 can can at least control basic video shooting. the nex and a7 were even given an api for developers to make apps, and for no given reason they won't release an api for any RX camera.

Many camera manufacturers could have a tagline with their camera's like: "Close, but no cigar" but especially Canon and Sony are leading the pack. They cripple all camera's below a certain pricepoint to protect their higher end camera's. Years ago when I bought my Canon xh-a1 it was simple, you had a more expensive brother but it had extra connectivity, it was an expensive upgrade but at least the image quality was exactly the same, same for the Sony ex1/ex3, same image quality but different approach. So to me it looks like the sensors in these camera's where at their limit in quality they could output and therefore differences where made in functionality.

Then they "accidentally" discover in 2008 you could shoot video with a dslr, in 2013 the ML team discovers the 5DII and the 50d which was released around the same period can shoot raw, you don't have to tell me the Canon engineers where not aware about, they knew how powerful these large sensor camera's where and had to lay out a long term plan to squeeze as much sales out of as many different models they could produce, it's no coincidence that in the past you only had one model per category and release time for new models took a longer time, they could only make a difference in functionality, now the dslr sensors are so powerful it opened a whole new world in possibilities to differentiate their offerings and by doing so making much more money. Now they spit out so many new models so quickly that it's hard to keep up anymore. Crippling each model down the line should make many users buy more models then they actually needed or find ways to work around the limitations, something which I and many others have done. If you want to have a cigar you pay a very high premium price. If you think they have reached their limit, 4k is around the corner and is the next phase of again a whole new offerings for the next years to come from a technology that already existed years ago.

Then we should not forget the accessory market which has exploded since the large sensor revolution, there have been so many new accessory manufacturers born just because camera manufacturers make a contest out of it producing the weirdest formfactors. Everybody wins.