do you have any rx100 samples you can post that handle highlights well?

Based on my experience with the RX100, there should be lots of adjustability, meaning lots of opportunity to also "get it wrong" with this camera. Took me a while to get a handle on the RX100...

That's the same for me -- since I'm not using my RX100 very often, I always get a bit bewildered when I finally power it up. My little Leica, on the other hand, is more of an idiot-proof point & shoot'er.

-- peer

I am considering getting this camera so here is my question: it has no native 1080/30p which is a format I must use, out of the options it does have which should I use to latter conform it to 1080/30p?

Can't you just add a 60p file in a 30p project? I do this all the time in edius (mixing 50p and 25p)

I'm sure I could, I'm just asking this august group what they think is the best way to do this

Just got the RX10 - anyone else got it yet? Going to be a few days before I try it out tho...

You are one of the first it seems and you dear to let everyone wait for some decent footage? Shame on you. :)
I must admit I had an eye on the rx10 as well and almost pre-ordered untill I saw that random "blown highlights" footage that has been posted so far on youtube, so instead I blew my budget on a 25mm f1.4 leica and a 7,5mm fisheye for my gh3 last week, I still need a longer zoom though as I only got a 12-35mm and it's either gonna be a 35-100mm or the rx10 but then I sure need to see some awesome footage from the rx10 to convince me not to get the 35-100mm instead, so far I"m only partially impressed and waiting for people like you to prove me wrong and then to find out you don't have time, pff. (just kidding :)

Noa -
You're already familiar with Sony cameras, so you are probably used to the overexposure tendency - there is also a DRO setting with 5 levels that should be able to flatten things out a bit too...

I've been looking through my RX100M2 clips (mostly casual family stuff), I am not seeing any real "blown highlights", but I haven't seen anything where a little manual tweaking couldn't take the exposure down if/when/as needed. I need to figure out which drive I stuck the footage we shot at night time cart racing on - the RX100M2 was struggling (a place the f/2.8 would have been a big help!), but it looked pretty good on first review...

The RX10 with ND filters and the aperture adjustment presents another set of "tweaks" available while shooting. I already mentioned I found the 100 to be a bit to learn - one might almost say "too many" adjustments - probably not something the "average" user will be prepared for, to be honest.

I hope to pick one of these up once a few people buy them and find them to be "too much camera" - you'd be surprised how many people think "point & shoot" and then find out that to get the most out of the camera they should learn a little more about how cameras work... wish I had hands on one to play with a bit, but holiday budgets and all that!

Hey Ian, when you have had a good test run with the camera please share some footage and your thoughts.

do you have any rx100 samples you can post that handle highlights well?

I shot this silly & spontaneous DOF'y cat video with my RX100 in bright sunny daylight:

SILLY VIDEO - Supermodel Cat shot with a Sony RX100 - YouTube

-- peer

i'll hold my judgement till i get it and put it in neutral with contrast dialed down

On the other NEX cams the portrait mode gives most extended DR, but this neutral mode seems to be new so try both.

Parafocal ,zoom, contrast Natural-3,-3,-3 awb
RX10 nat -3-3-3 - YouTube

I got a mail yesterday that the rx10 was available so I only need to press the order button but both 2 posted videos have not convinced me yet. Still see hotspots, especially with the catvideo and the second portrait video looks alot what my cx730 would do, don't mean that as a bad thing but rather have something that has a dslr kinda look and it's still too video like to me.

Sample video - comparing the Sony RX10, A7R and FS100 » EOSHD.com (http://www.eoshd.com/content/11576/sample-video-comparing-sony-rx10-a7r-fs100)

Says RX10 compares favorably with FS100. About same detail, and better highlights in RX10, at price of slight less shadow range. OS is supposed to be in the range of the Olympus 5 axis system.

Also AVCHD implementation is good enough that using external recorder does not improve image. he did not test gradability of the two recording codecs.

Hmmm.

and better highlights in RX10

Think I have said it before but any Info coming from that site I"d take with a grain of salt, there is a article about the rx10 where he is already making some statements about moire, resolution and videoquality in general just based on the fact that he was able to hold the camera in his hands at a store where he looked through the viewfinder and made a few photo's, I guess you always have people that like to shout "first!".

He also doesn't use any charts, just shoots a subject and if you look at the fs100/rx10 example side by side in his video the fs100 seems to be overexposed compared to the rx10, not exactly scientific, although I do like his "real world" images he takes with the camera's I think there is much more to comparing camera's as there are differences in image presets and such that can provide different results, I personally prefer Philip Bloom's reviews, he also doesn't use any charts but at least he makes some pretty impressive videos which do showcase the camera's abilities.

Hopefully more real life videos will start to appear that do show the strong and weak points from the camera.

Yes, I must say I agree with you regarding ‘that’ site, and while Bloom does publish nice videos I find his ‘reviews’ not particularly helpful. Everything is just lovely with some being lovelier. But his use of soundtracks is exemplary. I have yet to find a site that in fact does conduct in-depth high quality reviews of video cameras and would certainly appreciate hearing if such a site does exist.

Never mind, when I receive my RX10 you can be sure I shall at least stick the thing on a tripod, shoot a few clips and upload the MTS files untouched off the camera for viewing. Trouble is being way down here in this remote part of the planet it is not scheduled to arrive until 12/12/13. When I whined about that to my local reseller he smiled and said the other side of the coin is that all the garbage that happens out there in the world mostly doesn’t make it down here. He has a point, I suppose, but if I had ordered it from B&H it would be almost on my doorstep, sans warranty unfortunately.

And yes, hopefully we might soon see footage that is somewhat helpful but I’m not holding my breath waiting for a half-decent review.

I could order the camera, shoot with it and send it back saying I didn't like it, it's something we can do within I think 7 days if we order online :) You never know which source to really trust but that's why I like to see reviewers that know how to shoot (like bloom) as opposed to ones that know all the technical ins and outs but shoot awefull video.

From Cinema5d:
Sony RX10-first look cinema5D (http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=22136)

-Most important, picture quality. This camera DOES have strong aliasing and even worse, kind of micro blocking in “low light parts of the picture” or when it comes to “fine structure” like hair.
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------

Well I can see a bit of that, even 1-2 times it looks like a bit moire. Also the codec isn't perfect, especially for this shaky run and gun situations. But it's not as bad that I stop to follow the story, that's what happen often to me when I watch DSLR videos. Yes the restaurante picture got a bit soft, maybe if you need higher iso some post sharpening is required.

Hmmm, I was close to order a RX10. My expectations have been a bit higher, on the other side for that money it looks still like a very good offer. I'm looking forward to the test from EOSHD, because a comparison to the FS100 will hopefully show how good the value of the Rx10 really is. This sounds better to me than pixel peeping and comparing it to the perfect image for what you have to spent way more money.

So far the "reviews" all have "interesting" inaccuracies (one stated a "66x zoom"?!?)... sigh, sometimes first is not so good...


Part of what makes this camera a bit hard to get a handle on is it's a STILL camera, with a strong VIDEO side (which takes it out of "overpriced" to about the same $$ as a high end Handycam, but with better capabilities). SO, you find still photography sites thinking "wow, it's a REALLY expensive P&S", and not knowing how to shoot video better than uncle Bob... and the bit of video popping up seems to be basically "auto" footage, which will not be "bad", but also will not show what the camera can do.

It took me quite a while to dig through everything available in the extensive RX100 menus before I was able to get video results I felt were what I wanted. The M2 came easier, since the learning curve (which is actually more of a rock wall climb!) was already behind me. The RX10 should be "similar", but I'm sure will have its own set of things to learn.

I would venture to guess that anyone with less than a few HOURS of experience with the RX10 will have barely scratched the surface - this is the typical downfall of "reviews" - they grab a camera, poke at it a bit, and render a "verdict", usually with aforementioned "interesting inaccuracies"... it's not like an advanced camera is a dang kitchen appliance like a garbage disposal...you actually have to LEARN to use the thing a bit!


I love the stills from my RX100M2, and I'm quite happy with the video it shoots as well (I did see a little overexposure in a few sections of some of the stuff I've shot, BUT I wasn't adjusting the EV down either, nor was the video "BAD", in fact it was pretty GOOD). Ultimately, the bottom line is I have it with me, and so I get acceptable footage of stuff I wouldn't get AT ALL if I had to drag a bigger camera around! I'm still on the fence about the size of the RX10 for that very reason, but I have been using the RX100M2 with the HX300 for when the RX just doesn't have "reach", and it's easy to carry that "kit".

From experience with the RX100 and M2, as well as plenty of Sony cams, EV shift will be your friend. The other feature worth experimenting with is the DRO function. Between those two it should be possible to control exposure quite adequately if and when you really need to. I did see someone pulling the EV back, and then pushing it back up in post as needed... they found that to be very effective, as would be expected. I doubt they knew the DRO was even there...

It does appear that the RX10 is quite sharp, so it may well have a more "video" quality than an SLR, and there's only so much you can expect from the 1" sensor - but how many VIDEO cameras have a constant 2.8 and a 1" sensor?? Sure, there will be times to shoot video with something with a bigger sensor too, so I can see having an SLR/SLT in the toolbox.

Again, this is an entirely new "class" of camera, with it's little bros the RX100/100M2, and they DO take both high quality stills (not something you can get from a Handycam, at least from the times I've tried), and very good video. All in packages that fit in your pocket (RX100), or a small bag... pretty decent "hammers" for visual artists, all things considered! Perfect? Probably not, but I'm noticing a consistency in the reviews - they are impressed when they didn't expect to be, and they are having FUN shooting... that's a "feature" that you cannot put a price on, and yet it's there.

I'll take FUN over "pixel perfect" (as long as it's "almost" perfect <wink>) - Sony is catching on that average users are NOT using P&S cameras anymore - they have their CELL PHONES for that "fun" moment. They are aware that dragging 10 pounds of SLR or video "kit" with you negates the "fun", and that's a very limited market. The RX series is for "serious" photo/video, without all the weight/size...

Plus one to all the points you made Dave.

I downloaded the original ‘en&is- Shot with the RX10’ and my reaction was...this will do me. Like most gear reviewers he must find fault and in this instance it seems to me we have a case of ‘praising with faint damning’. His actions speak louder than his words (surprise!) as the video he produced is very nice indeed. Close-ups without blinking. Furthermore the bit rate of the ‘original’ I downloaded is less than half the specified capability of the camera. What he did to the ‘real’ original, including the post-edit compression, we do not know.

And he makes the same almost criminal mistake made by the bulk of the photography site reviews but in reverse; he fails to mention the fact that this camera, seemingly, shoots high quality photographs, and for me that is also a key capability. But not a word about that from this reviewer, unfortunately. In his defense he may not consider himself qualified.

Of course he must grizzle about AVCHD; how old is that getting?

Whatever, the ‘original’ piece published at his Vimeo site is not too shabby. So when I largely ignore what he says, and fails to say, but simply view his output I am more than delighted. As a walk-about image capturing device, more and more this thing looks like it will indeed be my cup of tea.

Nice piece - well done Johnnie Behiri.

From Cinema5d:
Sony RX10-first look cinema5D (http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=22136)

-Most important, picture quality. This camera DOES have strong aliasing and even worse, kind of micro blocking in “low light parts of the picture” or when it comes to “fine structure” like hair.


Johnnie Behiri did the test, he also tested the sony nex-ea50 and what he said about the shortcomings of that camera was right as I do own it, therefore I do trust him with his current findings of the rx10. I do think his video looked pretty good but I did see a few high contrast scenes flashing by which again showed how poor the camera would handle strong highlights which easily seem to turn into hotspots. It looks like it's a great run and gun camera which would handle most situations right, only the high iso/soft footage issue is not very reassuring. I"m becoming more certain it's better for me to just invest in an almost equally expensive 35-100mm lumix lens instead of this rx10.

The RX10 is designed to select under exposed areas and selectively apply NR, hence what he saw. If you do not like it then turn down/off NR or use lights. If you try to use this as an extreme low light camera then this will happen. But you can stop it, just read the manual.

Are you referring to the aliasing or the softness at high iso?

^
He refers to both these things in areas of low exposure, not in the overall image. That is the NR working as designed.

This may not be the best system, but you can turn it off or lower it. Just use NR in post.

@ John -

My reaction as well... it'll do just fine! Your comment that the "original" is at a reduced bitrate may well be the problem, or part of it - I've accidently shot personal tests with a camera at less than optimal settings a "few" times... easy mistake, as Sony typically does not seem to set "best" settings as the DEFAULT! More than once I've looked at something and thought it looked "off", only to check settings and discover "user malfunction".


I saw a few spots of "rough handling", that could also be the intelligent NR, we'll have to wait and fiddle with that function, but again, the image quality was something that would probably have left us all barefoot (knocked our socks clean off!) just a couple years ago if someone said they shot it with such a "minimalist rig". I'm presuming maybe the external mic adapter might have been used, but no lights, and I'm guessing this could easily have been shot with just the cam, a couple backup batteries and memory... when taking into consideration the overall presentation of the CONTENT, it's pretty slick to be able to do this with such a small "kit".



Low light performance is "OK" with the RX100M2, at least wide open (constant f/2.8 will be NICE, IMO) - and depending on the situation, you can bump the ISO and adjust shutter down to 1/30 and get "usable" performance - this is one of those things that is subjective, and a tiny LED light works wonders too. I will have to wait and have "hands on" to know how the RX10 performs - sometimes Sony does go backwards in low light performance, but I don't expect that here. Samples I saw looked like you might be able to push to ISO 6400 in a pinch, though there is a price to be paid, and I've seen some tests indicating the RX100M2 is a little cleaner than the RX10...

Honestly, I thought it was pretty hard to find much (any?) fault with that entire piece, and the subject matter was cool too. For what the camera can do in a small package, I'm sold, I'm sure there will be more than a few of these that are returned because they are "too complex"... I'll be in line for the "open box" deals!

I agree with the previous two comments, after reading the review I did not expect such a good video documentary. Now to look at it on a big screen

That was great to see the RX10 in action, sure it's not a C300, PMW500 like the cameras I own but for a point n shoot outa my bag when I need something small this will do but I have yet to test drive one myself.

^
He refers to both these things in areas of low exposure, not in the overall image. That is the NR working as designed.


does the NR cause "micro blocking in low light parts of the picture” like was described?

Dear friends.

Thank you for taking the time watching the RX10 video and commenting. Appreciated!

NR (and other un-necessary features for video) were turned off.

The camera was studied carefully before starting to shoot. (together with the A7, A7r). True, it is a photo camera first BUT, sony is heavily promoting its video side.

I guess if one align expectations, he/she can be happy with the end results.

One thing in favour of Sony's team, they are listening very carefully to the given feedback and very eager to improve their products to meet our needs.

Thank you!

Johnnie

Thanks for weighing in on the conversation, Johnnie.

Great review, and terrific mini-documentary.

As with all of your work, I forgot what it was shot on and was caught up in the story.

All the best,

Bill

Slashcam reports that the moire is from the electronic IS system, and with that turne off it approaches C300 levels of moire free detail.

Test: Sony DSC-RX10 - The camcorder Killer: From the measured laboratory (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Sony-DSC-RX10---Der-Camcorder-Killer--Aus-dem-Messlabor.html&usg=ALkJrhgzT5w-op5jj1Vav_doj2oVh5L5DQ#Aus_d)

They call,this a camcorder killer and say that with IS turnd offit approaches the very best results.

Other tests show the smearing of low light detail from NR.

So turn n all the automatic goodies and it is a good camcorder, and turn them off and it approaches the best results if you stay within the optimal DR and ISO range,

Thanks for weighing in on the conversation, Johnnie.

Great review, and terrific mini-documentary.

As with all of your work, I forgot what it was shot on and was caught up in the story.

All the best,

Bill

Bill, thank you for your warm kind words. appreciated!

Johnnie

Slashcam reports that the moire is from the electronic IS system, and with that turne off it approaches C300 levels of moire free detail.

Test: Sony DSC-RX10 - The camcorder Killer: From the measured laboratory (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Sony-DSC-RX10---Der-Camcorder-Killer--Aus-dem-Messlabor.html&usg=ALkJrhgzT5w-op5jj1Vav_doj2oVh5L5DQ#Aus_d)

They call,this a camcorder killer and say that with IS turnd offit approaches the very best results.

Other tests show the smearing of low light detail from NR.

So turn n all the automatic goodies and it is a good camcorder, and turn them off and it approaches the best results if you stay within the optimal DR and ISO range,

Hi Philip.

I will try and verify Slashcam findings with Sony engineering.

Thanks!

Johnnie

One thing in favour of Sony's team, they are listening very carefully to the given feedback and very eager to improve their products to meet our needs.

Not to sound abrasive or arrogant here -- but I'm curious to know what experience you have had and/or how you know that Sony will "listening very carefully to the given feedback and very eager to improve their products to meet our needs." That's certainly a very different experience I've had with my complaints & suggestions for their RX100. Pray tell.

-- peer

Hi Peer.

We at cinema5d are very much in close contact with the leading camera and accessories manufactures due to the nature of our work.

I can tell you from my experiance that there is an open ear and genuine willingness from most of them and Sony being at the front to try and make products that will serve us better.

Thank you!

Johnnie

Sony might listen to their clients for developing features for every new model that comes out but my experience is also they don't listen to clients of existing models, a good example is the nex-ea50 where several improvements where asked of which being able to quickly scroll through all iso values with the menu wheel just like you can do with the shutterspeed was one of the most requested. Sony did release a firmware update but that included features almost nobody asked for.

Johnnie -

Thanks for popping in, that piece was quite enjoyable! Always helpful to actually hear from the shooter firsthand, and one with experience who can clarify what they found, and how a shoot was done! Would be curious how much if any "external" gear you needed or if this was just mostly camera handheld - looked very very good from the standpoint of camera work. As everyone says, the story took precedence over "technical", meaning the camera work was doing it's "job", but it's still interesting to know the behind the scenes!

In my mind, while I could find a few little things to pick at, overall the video looked good. Better than the typical "HD" over cable good, and better than a lot of HD stuff I see on my computer screen. Not bad for a camera at this price point!

I'm sure Sony can release a firmware update to address any little "annoyances" - and I'd also suspect they are still "fine tuning" this new design, glad to hear they are listening to feedback, and it may well be that they can squeeze even more out of the camera with updates?


Phil -
Interesting results... sort of a tradeoff, active IS is of course handy for "run and gun" handheld use, but you have to give up a "little" image quality... OK, I can accept that. One more setting to experiment with! Very deep feature set... methinks having time on the RX100/M2 will be helpful, but there will still be a learning curve...

I noticed Slashcam mentioned the WB in video, I presume from the translation they couldn't figure out how to set custom WB... you can SET (one push) custom WB in stills mode, and then SELECT (but oddly not SET it!?) in video, not intuitive, stumbled across the way to set it while fumbling around! Their low light results were fairly consistent with how the RX100M2 performs - you bump the ISO and drop shutter speed, it'll get noisy, but still get you the shot - that f/2.8 will be quite helpful.

Sony might listen to their clients for developing features for every new model that comes out but my experience is also they don't listen to clients of existing models, a good example is the nex-ea50 where several improvements where asked of which being able to quickly scroll through all iso values with the menu wheel just like you can do with the shutterspeed was one of the most requested. Sony did release a firmware update but that included features almost nobody asked for.

Hi Noa.

It has been a long time since I've touched the EA50 pre.production model.

I will do my best and send your request to the responsible product manager.
We have nothing to lose by trying...

Thank you!

Johnnie

Johnnie -

Would be curious how much if any "external" gear you needed or if this was just mostly camera handheld - looked very very good from the standpoint of camera work. .

Dear Dave. Thanks for watching the video and commenting.

The only other piece of kit I've used is Sony's XLR-K1M (Professional XLR adapter and microphone kit).
I've used it in the "Pizza scene" as I wanted to test it in a relative loud environment.

Other then that I did some interview with the guys but it never made it to the final edit. There I used a small Manfrotto tripod F&V Z180 LED light and Sennheiser's G2 wireless system.

Thank you!!

Johnnie

It has been a long time since I've touched the EA50 pre.production model.
I will do my best and send your request to the responsible product manager.
We have nothing to lose by trying...


That would be great, thx! How is it with the rx10, can you quickly change the iso values? With the ea50 you can only assign 3 iso values to the switch on the side of the camera, if you want to change a iso you need to re-assign iso values to that same switch through the menu which is a big waste of time in a run and gun situation. My experience working with dslr's is that you need to be able to quickly change to whatever iso the camera has.

Hi Noa.

Yes, Changing ISO on the RX10 is as very easy and fast.

Thanks.

Johnnie

Hi Johnnie,

Loved the segment mate, I forgot about the camera I was checking out. I'm so looking forward to having this little camera in my bag. I have a full ENG shoulder camera with all the fruit but this RX10 and me will become great mates. I shoot also on the C300 and 5D and the 5D is collecting dust and the C300 does not get used much either. I'm after a fun camera again and I hope the RX10 is the bad boy.....

Great work again.

The only think I"d be interested in is how the camera deals with highlights because what I have seen so far hightlights are very harsh (also seen in Johnnie's video around the 02:22 mark), also seen this especially on faces where hotspots quickly seem to appear.

One other possible "feature" that might cause blown highlights (in cases like the strong backlit scenes) is the face recognition - it may be that as the camera tries to expose close to properly for skin tones it pushes the exposure so that foreground/skintones are not underexposed? I would think EV shift "should" compensate for the camera's "auto", but "backlight compensation" is one of those things where the camera tries to be smarter than the operator, so not 100% sure...

I guess my take is that if the camera can keep the main subject looking pretty good when the lighting or backlighting is less than optimal, I'm good with that. If I have enough manual control to improve on the "auto" when the situation warrants, even better. Sonys tend to overexpose, other brands have different "tendencies", you deal with the "features", that's part of tech toys...

Been playng wth an RX10, judging from the LCD it appears that the Deep and Portrait settings have much greater DR. Also, other settings do alter DR. I have set up a hgh DR test bed, and will play deeper into settings tomorrow. I know that these settings do give at least one and a half stops more DR if you also minimize contrast setting.

Doing a rough estimate of DR by observing differences in what it takes to set off zebra set at 100 when shadow area is still visible.

Sonys tend to overexpose, other brands have different "tendencies", you deal with the "features", that's part of tech toys...

Don't think that any auto exposure was used in the "en&is" video and you shouldn't use that if there is a dedicated iris ring on the lens, controlling the exposure manually is on of the key elements of getting a good image, based on the footage I saw so far it looks that highlights, especially whites or sun on faces, burn out easily which make it look like a cheap handicam under those circumstances.

look like a cheap handicam under those circumstances.

Oh no, how horrible! Do you think I should cancel my order and get a GH3 instead :-)

Don't think that any auto exposure was used in the "en&is" video and you shouldn't use that if there is a dedicated iris ring on the lens, controlling the exposure manually is on of the key elements of getting a good image, based on the footage I saw so far it looks that highlights, especially whites or sun on faces, burn out easily which make it look like a cheap handicam under those circumstances.

If you use the Deep or Portrait settings with contrast at -3 then there is at least one and a half
more stops DR. I have been testing a RX10.

EOSHD has panned the AVCHD implementation as breaking apart with motion at 50/60p, but not so much at 24/25p. I have yet to use 60p, so I have no idea, All my tests so far are oriented purely to maximizing DR. And I shoot at 24p. Have not shot scene with motion, just large DR setups.

Exclusive review - Sony RX10 » EOSHD.com (http://www.eoshd.com/content/11581/exclusive-review-sony-rx10)

It is hardly an exclusive review, he bought an RX10 at a shop, same as everyone else. But I will look at what he says. BTW he is correct that the HDMI out is a micro HDMI that I would not trust. And the manual is horrible, totally unusable with absolutely no mention of what certain features in the camera are, just completely ignored.

Again, I am struck by the size of this camera (I like it).

As for me, there's a reason I gave up on low bitrate AVCHD. I will rent this camera to test[/URL], but I'll probably stick with the GH3 and BMPCC (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CWLSHUK?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B00CWLSHUK&linkCode=xm2&tag=din0a-20) for motion pictures I care about.

I looked at Johnnie and Andrew's videos. The are both are very skilled videographers. I don't think Sony's implementation of the AVCHD codec is ready for professional applications. With a camera as nicely built as the RX10 I think they should have gone with a codec similar or equivalent to the GH3.