Decision made: Sony announced the Cybershot RX10. This is a new bridge camera with seemingly excellent video shooting capabilities. Shoots 60 and 24p AVCHD, has a high quality tilting screen, a high quality EVF, outputs clean uncompressed 4:2:2 via HDMI and comes with a long list of other desirable features for both video and stills.

I am totally over trying to use the screen on the Pocket camera and I was about to purchase an Alphatron EVF but when I came across the RX10 I changed my mind. My next purchase shall be the Sony Cybershot RX10. My BMPCC is for sale.

DSC-RX10 Digital Still Camera - All Cyber-shot Cameras Sony Store - Sony US (http://store.sony.com/dsc-rx10-digital-still-camera-zid27-DSCRX10/B/cat-27-catid-All-Cyber-shot-Cameras)

Also it appears to come with 50p for the PAL countries.

I don't see that camera as competition for the pocket cam, it doesn't have 13 stops of DR and it's shoots in a much more compressed codec, although those are the only 2 features that the pocketcam is better at it does set the camera apart from any other camera in it's pricerange.

You don't happen to send the camera to overseas buyers? :)

Uncompressed 4:2:2 out Noa, that is if one needs it given that the implementation of AVCHD is better than ever, and get this; I heard that it does 14 stops of dynamic range! Oh, by the way; state-of-the-art photographic capabilities. While I'm making a 'cinematic' movie I can take gorgeous high quality snapshots of all the girls on the set.

I agree, no competition; the RX10 will leave the Pocket dead in the water, underwater, deep in the mud! Such a shame - I do feel for the cousins in Oz.

Overseas shipping – why not. It’s all packed up looking as good as new, ready to go. But I couldn’t unload it on a good fellow like you. After a few days of wrangling with the ergonomics I doubt you would talk to me ever again:-)

I heard that it does 14 stops of dynamic range!

Nah, really?? or is that just some New-Zealandish humor? :) Shout me a price, who knows I might do something stupid.

The a99 claims uncompressed 4:2:2 and its no better than what comes out of the camera. Prores mops the floor with Sony's consumer AVCHD mush. And the upcoming raw DNG for the pocket cam is flat out phenomenal. I've held off going raw with my 5d3 until the pocket cam arrived - because it slows down things on the photo side and I shoot a lot of stills at events - looking at the DNG's, I don't know if I'll ever use the ML raw once the pocket cam has the capability.

Edit: from Sony's website - same crappy AVCHD its been spec'ing in its cameras for years AVCHD: 28M PS (1920 x 1080, 60p) 24M FX (1920 x 1080, 60i) 17M FH (1920 x 1080, 60i) 24M FX (1920 x 1080, 24p) 17M FH (1920 x 1080, 24p) MP4: 12M (1440 x 1080, 30 fps) 3M VGA (640 x 480, 30 fps)

I certainly like the looks of the RX10, plan to buy one to replace my wife's FZ150, and actually did a very positive blog post on it (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com/2013/10/i-am-really-excited-by-new-sony-dsc.html). But I'm keeping my Pocket Cam. There is no way an 8 bit 28mbps AVCHD camera can hold up to 10 bit 233mbps ProRes or lossless 12 bit RAW in the editing suite or on the screen.

It can certainly be a challenge to get the most out of the BMPCC, but it is a cinema camera, and the RX10 is not.

As I point out in the blog, the RX10 is much more of a threat to Panasonic, which has heretofore had the advantage in still/video hybrid cameras.

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

"I am totally over trying to use the screen on the Pocket camera and I was about to purchase an Alphatron EVF..."

I'm thinking the Hoodman Cinema Loop thing (or a variation) might work for this and be massively cheaper then an EVF.

There is no way an 8 bit 28mbps AVCHD camera can hold up to 10 bit 233mbps ProRes or lossless 12 bit RAW in the editing suite or on the screen.

Correct, if you know how to handle it, there are many crap looking pocket cam videos currently online which shows how difficult it is to get it right, it just doesn't shoot great looking video right out of the box like I can do with my gh3, many rave about the dynamic range and the fact you have so much controll in post but only a few seem to know how to deal with all that codec power.

WARNING, WARNING Will Robinson !!!!!

Take care and be sure the camera has what it says it has. When I bought my Sony VG 20, they promised control by have several picture profiles for the video, but when we received the camera, no such thing was aboard. You had one profile, and that was it. You cannot depend on Sony's sales literature to give you the true lowdown on the camera !!!!!

Chris,

The VG30 is the one with the picture profiles.

It was definitely posted as being on the VG 20. I found out the hard way having purchased directly from the Sony website. I saved the webpages and had an extensive communication campaign with Sony

Ouch.

And rightly so. It's unacceptable for Sony to mis-lead buyers like that.

Pre ordering any consumer product is generally ill advised.

Pre ordering any consumer product is generally ill advised.

i preordered an RX10.

from a retailer with a return policy :)

I’ m having a hard time actually listing my BMPCC on Trademe. This always happens; I just can’t bring myself to part with cameras I no longer use (other than a couple I gave to relatives). I’ve still got a couple of fully functional, almost as good as new, HDV cameras; a Sony HDR-FX1 and a Sony HVR-V1P - lovely cameras in their day.

Today I unpacked the BMPCC again and took it, along with the EX1, out shooting. Gorgeous weather; the best possible shooting conditions with scarcely any wind, slowly changing light as the thin high overcast dissipated and sky-blue at its best ruled the unfolding day, photons streaming in full bore.

A passerbyer called me four-eyes (with a smile) because I was using two pair of magnifying glasses to try and see the screen in order to set focus and exposure and framing on the BMPCC. I have been called worse. I did get some very nice footage with both cameras and better yet I had a great day.

Now, after having downloaded Gigabytes upon Gigabytes and compared a few clips from the cameras I believe, with a touch of mild sadness, that the BMPCC will go back in the box it came in. It’s just too much trouble to use out there, and I actually don’t want to sit at the computer for hours on end grading the footage. Furthermore, heavy pushing in post is clearly not for me; fanciful grades are of diminishing interest - the orange/teal look is so yesterday already, and blue-blacks fail to turn my crank.

I will say this – without a doubt - I have had my money’s worth; the fun of learning how to use the BMPCC and the basics of Resolve. When RAW becomes available I will in all likelihood have a shot at that just for fun. Good on Blackmagic I say, and while I conclude the BMPCCC is just not my thing I imagine it will be for lots of folks, that’s for sure.

On the other hand – the new Sony DSC-Cyber-shot RX10...(here we go again:-))...

I always carry a camera to shoot photographs anyway and when I read the specs...this is just the camera I’ve been waiting for. Looks like an extremely competent device for both worlds. Bring it on Sony!

And I’ll tell you a dirty little secret; I ain’t never going to make a movie anyhow:-)

John, sad to see that. Your video previously posted was nice. Have you tried something like Film Convert or Magic Bullet that gives you a preset look that you can then tweak - eliminating your time in resolve? I think with the DNG's we can use Lightroom or Capture 1, which for me would be a lot easier as I have a lot more experience working with stills. There are of course a lot more really nice preset options for LR. For the sake of turnaround times, that's the route I hope will work for me.

The RX10 looks terrific. I've never in my life had the slightest bit of interest in owning a 'superzoom' compact... and now I do.

That said, they'll have to pry wide-DR 10-bit ProRes from my cold dead hands before I'll shoot AVCHD again (at which point I probably won't be shooting much).

I will say after spending a few days with the Pocket Cam, focusing is a challenge to say the least, so I can empathize with the OP's frustrations. I've handheld my Z-finder to the LCD and it doesn't help much, not enough resolution for my eyes. Of course focus magnify would make life a lot easier, but since BM's firmware updates seem to address functional issues as opposed to adding features - I'm not holding my breath. That was something I knew going in, based on the Cinema Cam complaints and what BM has done in the year since its been out. Some sort of external monitor will be necessary for me. I may try one of the Lilliput 7" LCD's or a small EVF.

Some sort of external monitor will be necessary for me
Then it's not a pocketcam anymore :)

I'd be interested in the pocket camera if you're serious

Then it's not a pocketcam anymore :)

The concept of a cinema camera that fits in your pocket, when you get right down to it, is a bit daft anyway. Who in their right mind would use this camera, or any small pocket camera such as the Sony RX100ll for that matter, to make a real movie? A home movie perhaps but given the BMPCC limitations even that seems a huge stretch to me. Interestingly, the sensor on the RX100ll and the RX10 is said by DxO to have a dynamic range of 12.4 and to the best of my knowledge they are a credible source of such information. I have yet to find any equally credible information regarding the advertised 13 stops of dynamic range of the BMPCC however presumably such data does exist, perhaps.

If you attach a pancake lens to the BMPCC with the inevitable zoom range limitations and you have the eyesight of a 16 year old then yes, it works as a pocketable camera that records moving pictures. In most hands the footage will in all likelihood be very shaky, as we’ve seen even in professional hands, and for many folks hardly worth wasting all that time in post pushing it around to get those outrageous colours, but it can be done, that is true.

The Sony Cyber-shot RX10 that is the subject of this thread, while certainly not pocketable nor claimed to be, is arguably as good a ‘cinema’ camera if dynamic range is where the action is, along with the alleged uncompressed 4:2:2 out. But of course that all remains to be seen. Ergonomically there is no contest; the RX10, again based on published specs alone, wins by a huge margin. Sony in their wisdom is not marketing it as a ‘cinema’ or a ‘movie’ camera but rather their headline ‘See Life in a New Light’ is little more than a weak compound pun.

But ‘Pocket Cinema Camera’ and ’13 stops of dynamic range’ sure is an attention-grabbing headline and the marketing person who came up with that deserves an extra bonus even if the concept is a tad nuts. Make no mistake as a coffee table paper weight the BMPCC is remarkably effective, everyone just wants to reach out and touch it, though a bit expensive so on second thoughts and after it has lost its skin-deep eye appeal then Trademe it might be before the market gets flooded.

Then it's not a pocketcam anymore :)

As mentioned, unless you're working with a pancake and don't care about audio, then the whole pocket thing is really moot. My Nex 5n or 5d3 isn't pocketable either when kitted for an actual production, a small monitor isn't a deal breaker for me. I really want to shoot raw without the whole bootflag mess that'll muck with my 5d3 when shooting stills. The level of detail and lack of banding make it worth tinkering with an efficient workflow on the Pocket. The DNG's look fantastic, I'm not writing off the Pocket Cam yet.

Interestingly, the sensor on the RX100ll and the RX10 is said by DxO to have a dynamic range of 12.4 and to the best of my knowledge they are a credible source of such information. I have yet to find any equally credible information regarding the advertised 13 stops of dynamic range of the BMPCC however presumably such data does exist, perhaps.

According to DXO:
The GH1 is rated at 11.9 Evs.
The GH2 is rated at 11.3 Evs.
The 5D Mark II is rated at 11.9 Evs.
The Canon 1Dx is rated at 11.8 Evs.

I don't think any of these cameras have that kind of range for video though - at least not without the Magic Lantern raw hack. I would be careful with DXO numbers when it comes to video - I am not so sure that the sensor is the whole story...

I"ll be looking from the sidelines to see where this all is heading, in the meantime I"ll be using my gh3 during the winterperiod on several personal projects, just like I did with my nex-ea50, best way to get to know your camera better. Once the winter has passed and the pocketcam/rx10 is old news I"ll probably get one of those 2 just for fun, and probably cheaper then what they cost now. :)

Currently there is a lot of talk about the rx10 specs, I"m only interested to see what the camera can actually do in real life, not what some site says about what it's supposed to do. My feeling is that Sony are actually afraid to hand over pre-production units to experienced users who might make the image look better then their much more expensive and high end camera's. The currently available rx10 footage doesn't look very promising and I"m sure rx10 footage can look very good in the right hands, take gopro as opposite example, if they show a trailer of a new camera it looks nothing short of amazing, even much better then most users will ever achieve because they don't have a gazillion other higher end and much more expensive camera's to protect and will go out of their way to show the camera at it's very best.

The RX10 looks great and I also found some info that suggested that the DR is 12 stops but the video images that I'm watching via YouTube seem to be a bit soft and I'm fully aware of compression etc. I hope someone gets a hold of this camera and really takes it through it's video performance soon.

Every dog has its day and in due course the day comes when it no longer is top dog. That’s a given and it applies to products such as cameras too. I remain unconvinced that the RX10 poses a serious threat to Sony’s high end product line no matter how good the video delivered. The footage I have viewed said to have been generated by the RX10 is absolute rubbish and the origins questionable, so like you Noa, I await the real thing. In this regard most footage posted on Youtube is often anecdotal, at best.

As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and all I’m saying is that I do find the RX10 specs mouth-watering to say the least, heightened by the promise and the inherent short-comings, for me, of the BMPCC. Not exactly a dog, but not exactly a breakthrough earth-shattering piece of technological wonder either. Still, a good effort from a somewhat small company relatively new to the game.

In any event it would not surprise me in the slightest if the RX10 delivers more than the BMPCC in most every way that interests me, and for less money when all is said and done.

We shall see.

One thing I'm sure the new Sony won't do the way the BMPCC did to me and a few shooters around here is suck the joy of videography out of you. It may have less than 12 stops of DR or record to the amateurish AVCHD or etc. but I have a feeling it will be a superior videographic tool in terms of joy and fun.

In general I don't pre-order, but I made an exception with the BMPCC (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CWLSHUK/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00CWLSHUK&linkCode=as2&tag=battleforthew-20) because it was clear from the BMCC (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C89ZVR8/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00C89ZVR8&linkCode=as2&tag=battleforthew-20) experience that mass production is not Blackmagic's strength. If I wanted a camera this year for less than $1000, I needed to pre-order. So far, this has been a good call.

... and actually did a very positive blog post on it (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com/2013/10/i-am-really-excited-by-new-sony-dsc.html)...

Glad you posted this link as I had no idea you had a blog. Lot's of good stuff.

"Who in their right mind would use this camera, or any small pocket camera such as the Sony RX100ll for that matter, to make a real movie? A home movie perhaps but given the BMPCC limitations even that seems a huge stretch to me"

Are you kidding? For those of us who travel the world on a regular basis, or just plain work anywhere this camera is a miracle. Spectacular image, ProResHQ or RAW soon. Don't compare it to the RX100 or any camera that doesn't feature a professional codec. It has 1/4-20s on both the top and bottom of the camera, so it will attach to anything. Yes, you must use a loupe. EVF not necessary. This works great if you have a Manfrotto 501 or 701 head laying around: QV-1 LCD View Finder – Kamerar (http://kamerar.com/collections/lcd-viewfinders/products/qv-1-lcd-view-finder). Otherwise a host of others are ready to roll out loupes for the pocket.

What limitations? My main camera is a C300. It continues to be a workhorse for me. But I will find plenty of use for this new professional tool. It takes up almost zero additional space in my carry-on. A basic grading pass only takes minutes as long as exposure is close. And the ability to push the image around to the extent that you can - if you want - is too good to be true... but it is.

I will say after spending a few days with the Pocket Cam, focusing is a challenge to say the least, so I can empathize with the OP's frustrations. I've handheld my Z-finder to the LCD and it doesn't help much, not enough resolution for my eyes. Of course focus magnify would make life a lot easier, but since BM's firmware updates seem to address functional issues as opposed to adding features - I'm not holding my breath. That was something I knew going in, based on the Cinema Cam complaints and what BM has done in the year since its been out. Some sort of external monitor will be necessary for me. I may try one of the Lilliput 7" LCD's or a small EVF.

It does have focus magnification. Double press the "ok' button

It does have focus magnification. Double press the "ok' button

Yes and peaking, wish the magnification pushed in more though. I still find it far easier to focus with my 5d3, a Z-finder and its higher rez LCD - where I rarely use magnification. I'm not putting any more into the pocket until raw drops. For now its bare bones - the camera and my Oly 14-42 lens that came with my dearly departed EM5.

Seems the RX10 uncompressed out via HDMI reported earlier has been confirmed. From dpreview.com: PPE 2013: Hands-on with Sony's new A7 / A7R and RX-series cameras by dpreview staff on Oct 26, 2013 state ‘The Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 is an ultra zoom compact camera, featuring a 24-200mm equivalent (8.3x optical zoom) lens with a continuous F2.8 maximum aperture, and a 1-inch, 20 megapixel BSI-CMOS sensor. The RX10 uses the new Bionz X sensor (the same as the Alpha 7R/7 full-frame mirrorless cameras), which provides improved sharpness and noise reduction, reduced diffraction, and snappy performance.

Other features include a 3-inch tilting WhiteMagic LCD with 1.228 million dots, SVGA electronic viewfinder, a weather-resistent body, Wi-Fi, 1080/60p video with uncompressed HDMI output, and much more.’

And with the better than 12 stops of dynamic range...we might just have a point and shoot (with complete manual control available of course) cinema camera with excellent ergonomics. How about that!

Really... they posted a review on october 26.... wow... and i thought deloreans were all talk and no flux

Yep, Oct 26, 2013 at 00:59:53 to be precise. I believe they are located in the UK and are therefore a bit ahead of you the way the world turns:-)

blasphemy, the world doesn't turn, it ballerina twirls.

Gordon Laing, Camera Labs.com has posted Sony Cyber-shot RX10 footage at Vimeo. Not sure if it's kosher to post a link here therefore I shan't, but if you search 'Gordon Laing on Vimeo' you will find this footage. The original mts files directly off the camera and untouched are available for download.

I am very favorably impressed. Just take a look at that dynamic range; 14 stops do you reckon:-)

Forget the BMPCC; this will do me just fine, I'm thinking.

I reckon It's a little ripper for what it can do and I will be adding one to my kit for sure. I wish it had a night vision thing for those shots at a campsite or spooky house etc...

looks pretty darn nice. download the originals.

far detail in the landscape definitely looks a notch above dslr standards, and the iso3200 looks to be at least as good as the 5D2, and has far more grain like noise than the 5d2's line noise

Hi all just a question on the Sony A7. I put on the front a Sony 18-200 power zoom off my VG30 the images are excellent the power zoom works fine from the switch on the lens but I can't get it to work using sony multi lead and controller that same lead etc plugged into my small handycam works a treat do I need to set something on the A7 or will it just not work' Thanks Wilf.

Gordon Laing, Camera Labs.com has posted Sony Cyber-shot RX10 footage at Vimeo. Not sure if it's kosher to post a link here therefore I shan't, but if you search 'Gordon Laing on Vimeo' you will find this footage. The original mts files directly off the camera and untouched are available for download.

I am very favorably impressed. Just take a look at that dynamic range; 14 stops do you reckon:-)

Forget the BMPCC; this will do me just fine, I'm thinking.
please post the link. i can't find what ur talking about.

Seems the RX10 uncompressed out via HDMI reported earlier has been confirmed. t!

If you don't mind the sub par quality of a "on-the-fly" half-debayered signal, that was made for monitoring use, but not for recording, than you are fine with the RX10.

If you don't mind the sub par quality of a "on-the-fly" half-debayered signal, that was made for monitoring use, but not for recording, than you are fine with the RX10.

Do you have any support to your claims, or are you just trolling?

right on the sony site:

"Connect via the HDMI terminal to transfer clear, uncompressed digital movie signal output from the RX10 to an external monitor/recorder simultaneously in real time. Or, for a cleaner view, turn off the shooting info display and watch your movies unfold on an external monitor/recorder."

If you don't mind the sub par quality of a "on-the-fly" half-debayered signal, that was made for monitoring use, but not for recording, than you are fine with the RX10.

I have a Sony Cybershot RX10 on order due next week. I also have a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera which I not particularly affectionately call ‘little Oink’ as it really is such a pig of a thing to use even if the imagery is half-decent. You can be sure I will conduct objective disinterested dispassionate comparisons (I do NOT have a ‘special’ relationship with either Sony or Blackmagic therefore trolling will not be my game) under my regular shooting conditions.

Based on the mts files directly off the RX10, and not re-compressed, that I have viewed, and for that matter the output published at the Sony RX10 user group at Vimeo and to a lesser degree on YouTube I am of the opinion that Little Oink will be getting a short shift to Trademe primarily because of the horrible ergonomics. I hardly need a comparison to know that already, nevertheless I shall conduct the comparisons.

The Blackmagic Pocket was a good idea very poorly executed, unfortunately, and because of that not only will the RX10 provide serious competition but, in my opinion, will leave it floundering and falling to pieces in the dust no matter the final vain inglorious attempts to stop the hemorrhage.

Back to the drawing board Blackmagic, and may I suggest you begin again at square one. And next time drop the silly ‘Pocket’ nonsense perhaps.

I shall post my findings in due course.

Ironically, I just added both cameras to our kit this week.
I got them both for their size and different abilities.
You'll never get the image out of the RX10 that you will from the BMPC.
You'll never get the range and function of the RX10 from any BM camera or DSLR, nothing but a "C" camera.

So getting both, and sticking them in our kit was kind of a no brainer for me once I got a chance to work with the footage.

And rigging the BMPC to shoot well was pretty easy - a form fit cage, a magnetized VF. Still small but easy to attach a 7" monitor. Yeah, it's basic out of the box, but it's image is a lot more than half-decent - it's world class if it's shot well.

American English New Zealand English.

World class - ranked among the world's best. An over-statement perhaps. Certainly pushing it!

Half-decent down here means very good – an under-statement if you will. It’s just that we don’t like to brag :-).

I agree that in most ways the two cameras are very different machines. The problem I have with the BMPCC is that by the time I rig it to the functionality of the RX10 it surely is not a small portable device like the RX10 and when I consider the money involved in getting there I do ask myself why would I do that? I was about to head off down that path beginning with an EVF when the RX10 was announced (for similar money) and I said to myself 'hang on a minute mate'.

I do have one use that might justify keeping the BMPCC and fitting it out to improve the ergonomics and that is to slap on a Panasonic G Vario 100-300mm f4/5.6 Mega OIS Lens which will give me huge reach for shooting wildlife that none of my current cameras, including the about to arrive RX10 will give me, not by a long shot. But the BMPCC so rigged is no longer a walk-around sling it over the shoulder and head off on Shanks’ Pony for a few kilometers across the swamp. So I'm still cogitating...

For me it invariably comes down to what is it I want to shoot, what are the conditions that I must work within and then what is the best tool for the job? Thus far the BMPCC has not been that useful while the RX10 looks very promising indeed, for what I largely do.

And always YMMD.

I love learning the subtleties of the languages we share, and NZ is a "must visit someday" for a lot of reasons for me.

It's always about the user and the usage with these tools.
We're diverse/fortunate enough that I get to produce a lot of doc and promotional work for locations and outdoor sports - and do a lot of narrative, TV spot work.

I got the pair for their size and the extremely different purposes they fill.
Rigged out, the BMPC is still so much smaller than other narrative tools we might use like a Red or C300.
But honestly, the image is right there with them.

The R10...we'll see, but I get a feeling I'll have a blast with it on a lot of locations

OK, I’m late to the party I know but my Sony Cyber-shot RX10 finally arrived. How do I like it - let me count the ways. Actually no, I shan’t do that as the attributes of this well designed and engineered little wonder have already been well documented by much smarter and more moving picture savvy people than me. However I can report that even after only a couple of sorties I am highly impressed, to say the least.

Is this new machine serious competition for the BMPCC as is the subject of this thread? In my humble opinion - that is for my intended use - the answer is no, there is no competition; the BMPCC doesn’t even get a look in - the RX10 is everything I had hoped the BMPCC would be and then some when it comes to easily delivering a great image. Which of course is not to say others won’t find that the BMPCC meets their needs.

So the question I addressed regarding whether I should purchase an EVF for the BMPCC or the RX10 (similar dollars) the answer is the RX10 - a no brainer.

Many thanks to all the folks who posted footage (there is now tons) and comments regarding the ‘camera of the year’, the RX10.

Oh, yes; I have one serious complaint; the lens cap is not able to be connected to the camera body by a cord. How could Sony be so inept? I tell ya...

OK, let me dig out my Trademe account information.

delete...........