I've never had an issue to date with a potential booking on the basis of music … until now.

Normally once I explain the law, the couple says its ok. This latest potential client sounds like it may be a sticking point though!

Does anyone else ever have bother with this? Does anyone let the rare one slide through and take the risk?

I've told her that I can do it with her song choice, but I can't upload it. I told her I can send it to her and she can upload it without mentioning my company name. I've also added a fee for this option due to my losing out of potential publicity.

Good idea/bad idea?

I've done on site music in the videos for full length, but never for anything I would, or think they would post online. That means, of the three videos I can make (full length all-day is optional), both the highlight reel and wedding film (about 20 minutes) are sound tracked and NEVER have copyrighted music.

That's because I assume those are the two they'd want or be willing to put online. The full length, at 45-90 minutes, I don't worry about since it's likely to stay on the DVD.

Added a fee due to lost publicity? Where did that come from? I would never pay that kind of fee, it sounds made up. Put yourself in the bride's place and rethink it from her point of view.

Clive,

Check out PRS, it may not be as expensive as you think....

Performing Right Online Licences (http://www.prsformusic.com/USERS/BROADCASTANDONLINE/ONLINEMOBILE/Pages/PerformingRightOnlinelicence.aspx)

I assume you don't think you will get more than 45,000 plays (where music is the focus) or 3,500 hours of play time (where music was not the focus).

While we're sort of on the subject, could some one list some links where you can purchase music with vocals and such. I can find music without vocals, but I've seen some amazing music used with vocals, but I don't know where they are getting it from. Thanks in advance.

Sick to the back of my teeth because we have to pay so much for all these songs yet people are using torrents to download illegally and millions of websites hosting pirated software, movies, games, music etc.

If anything the work we do promotes the artist! You always get people asking, that song is nice, who is it by!?

I wish there was a way to pay a one-time ownership fee for the rights to use the song for wedding work including commercial music.

I hate the fact we have to pay for a certain amount of plays and multiple licenses.

Explaining it to the bride/groom is the worst part!

Steven, songfreedom and the music bed have an amazing selection.

Steven, songfreedom and the music bed have an amazing selection.

Thanks Jeff.

Does anyone let the rare one slide through and take the risk?

Yes. .

Clive,

Check out PRS, it may not be as expensive as you think....

Performing Right Online Licences (http://www.prsformusic.com/USERS/BROADCASTANDONLINE/ONLINEMOBILE/Pages/PerformingRightOnlinelicence.aspx)

I assume you don't think you will get more than 45,000 plays (where music is the focus) or 3,500 hours of play time (where music was not the focus).
Sorry to disabuse you Dave but the PROL does not permit you to use copyright music on wedding videos online. For a start there is this

The Performing Right Online Licences covers the act of communicating music to the public when you want to use music online and have already cleared the mechanical rights (i.e. the right to copy/reproduce the track) separately.

Sadly despite the fact that here in the UK we can easily & cheaply licence music on physical products like DVD & Blu-ray there is no equivalent licence for online use.

Added a fee due to lost publicity? Where did that come from? I would never pay that kind of fee, it sounds made up. Put yourself in the bride's place and rethink it from her point of view.

I don't see the problem with this Jeff. All my short vids go on my website and on facebook. I share them, google users find them, the client's friends see them. This all directs traffic and interest to me.

If I'm doing a job, but I am unable to upload the short video in the usual way, I am simply asking that the fee reflects the disadvantage I take upon myself.

As a way to deal with the licensing of music, is there a way to license it for use on the video that is supplied to the client and put a End User License Agreement on the video at the end? Say, after the credits?

The EULA could say what the video is licensed for and/or what it is not. Maybe break down the parts of the video, for example, a EULA for the video part and another one for the music part.

Commercial videos have copyright information at the beginning, something that says how illegal it is to copy the material.

I agree with a comment made about all the on-line illegal music and also with illegally produced products imported or sold abroad. These people are getting away with murder while those who try to do it right wind up getting hammered.

The US Government used to confiscate boats (i.e., yachts) and private planes that came into the US with illegal drugs, even an ounce worth. And yet, there seems to be no problem with the importation of grey market or illegal goods on container ships from abroad.

In a previous life I used to have a stereo business and I had a customer that wanted to buy a sound system for their restaurant. Trying to do it legally I contacted ASCAP, I'm pretty sure that is who it was, in San Francisco, about the ins and outs of using a system for music in this situation. The communication went south in a hurry and we wound up being threatened with a law suit and for several years afterward we would receive nasty and threatning letters. The end result of the potential sale is it didn't happen and they bought a system from somewhere else and, obviously, our relationship soured. Also lost aftermarket sales of CDs.

If you're a little guy the big guys can really overpower you with legal hammers. But that also goes for little corporations vs big corporations so we aren't alone.

I don't see the problem with this Jeff. All my short vids go on my website and on facebook. I share them, google users find them, the client's friends see them. This all directs traffic and interest to me.

If I'm doing a job, but I am unable to upload the short video in the usual way, I am simply asking that the fee reflects the disadvantage I take upon myself.

I turn around my edits in 8-10 weeks and include a PRS licence in the price - it's about £7 for each wedding and allows me to use copyrighted music on 5 discs. Within a week of filming I upload a 2 minute highlights clip on my blog using premiumbeat/songfreedom/music bed purchased music. It's great for SEO and gives the couple something to view while they are waiting for the final edit.

Pete

Its all too confusing!

Peter, Nigel above states that the PRS licence is not sufficient.

Is he right or wrong?

You would need to hire a lawyer to explain this all! I can't find anywhere online that highlights this in black and white terms (not in the UK anyway).

I think some people on here are just content to buy something(anything), then if a law suit comes their way, they will plead naivety and say "i thought I was covered by that!", instead of fully looking into the full requirements.

Nigel is right - the PRS licence allows you to produce 5 X DVDs with copyrighted music but does not allow you to post online - If a couple wish to purchase extra discs that takes me above 5 I have to buy another licence.

I don't sweat this one - The couple get their favourite music on the wedding video and I'm more than happy with Song Freedom/Music Bed stuff for my online samples. When I visit potential customers I take my tablet for showreel samples and samples of 'actual' edits so they get to see the real thing with actual music.

It's no biggie here in the UK but It seems there is no alternative to the PRS licence in other countries. I wouldn't risk posting copyrighted music online - other posts have highlighted what can happen if you are caught.

It does make for an un-leavel playing field however as some vidographers happily post samples with copyrighted music I know of a few local competition that do so - I wouldn't risk it however.

I had to smile this week when one of my videos was tagged by youtube for potential copyright infringement. I'm happy. Very odd you may think. I'm in a tribute band, and we play beach boys songs, and youtube identified the song, and the right recording date. Their software is getting very good now, so anyone who uploads anything now is going to be scrutinised. So much depends on what the copyright owner wants to do? Add an ad, or ban it!

Paul -
Just read your post:
"I had to smile this week when one of my videos was tagged by youtube for potential copyright infringement. I'm happy. Very odd you may think. I'm in a tribute band, and we play beach boys songs, and youtube identified the song, and the right recording date. Their software is getting very good now, so anyone who uploads anything now is going to be scrutinised. So much depends on what the copyright owner wants to do? Add an ad, or ban it!"

I'm wondering, what do you think the odds are that Google is getting some kind of kickback for spotting copyright violations? My guess is they must be making money doing it or they wouldn't be so zealous.

Now then, what about videos? Maybe those who produce videos should be getting the same kind of service as the music people?

I'm wondering, what do you think the odds are that Google is getting some kind of kickback for spotting copyright violations? My guess is they must be making money doing it or they wouldn't be so zealous.

They don't get sued anymore, that's what they get out of it. They dealt with a bunch of lawsuits some years ago over allowed copyrighted content.

I'm wondering, what do you think the odds are that Google is getting some kind of kickback for spotting copyright violations? My guess is they must be making money doing it or they wouldn't be so zealous.

Not sure its a "kickback" per se, but more they probably revenue share in all advertising. I would think for all the ads shown on Youtube Google gets a 10% or 20% cut of it with the copyright holder getting the remaining. It may not be exact I'm sure someone can look it up if they want, its probably out there in GoogleLand.. Preventing lawsuits too, which was inevitably going to come, but advertising generates revenue for both as opposed to simply banning copyrighted music.

Dont charge more for not getting publicity. That's just good customer service.

Upload it online but password protect it. It is annoying that we can easily licence music for disks but not online. The music industry is STILL trying to ignore the fact that the internet exists.

If you make it public then re-cut it with your own song choice and a licenced one.

I actually emailed PRSformusic there to ask point blank what I need. I explained to her that they are wedding videos played on Vimeo and on my site.

She told me that PROL is all I need to cover myself.

£60 a year for under 120,000 streams.

Thats the cost of two Music Bed Licenses.

That can't be right, can it???

I actually emailed PRSformusic there to ask point blank what I need. I explained to her that they are wedding videos played on Vimeo and on my site.

She told me that PROL is all I need to cover myself.

£60 a year for under 120,000 streams.

Thats the cost of two Music Bed Licenses.

That can't be right, can it???

BARGAIN ... why can't it be right? you have it in writing.

Buy the PROL, print that email, print & file it in your cabinet. If a law suit were to ever arise, HIGHLY unlikely. Just whip out that document and claim you were mis-informed !

So I wasn't so far out then :D I remembered it being something like that.

I actually emailed PRSformusic there to ask point blank what I need. I explained to her that they are wedding videos played on Vimeo and on my site.

She told me that PROL is all I need to cover myself.

£60 a year for under 120,000 streams.

Thats the cost of two Music Bed Licenses.

That can't be right, can it???

No it can't be right. For the reason that I posted earlier amongst others:-

The Performing Right Online Licences covers the act of communicating music to the public when you want to use music online and have already cleared the mechanical rights (i.e. the right to copy/reproduce the track) separately.

Look at the the full T&Cs for more evidence http://www.prsformusic.com/users/broadcastandonline/onlinemobile/Documents/2013%20PRS%20Online%20licence%20full%20terms%20and%20conditions.pdf
3.2 For the avoidance of doubt, licences granted under this Agreement do not grant any “synchronisation licence” covering the initial fixation of Repertoire Works in combination with visual images to create and produce content.

I am not trying to be a smart arse but the girl at the PRS has it wrong. However if you have it in writing that it covers your wedding videos for just £60/year then good luck.

As I don't upload my weddings the licensing is not something that worries me, but surely part 3.2 of the t&c is covered by the parallel application of the Limited availability licence, which gives the right to use the music in the first place. Does the addition of the PROL then extend those rights to online use?

Roger

As I don't upload my weddings the licensing is not something that worries me, but surely part 3.2 of the t&c is covered by the parallel application of the Limited availability licence, which gives the right to use the music in the first place. Does the addition of the PROL then extend those rights to online use?

Roger
No.

It's a Limited Manufacturing licence. It licences music on a physical product.

you have to explain the customer there is no music limitation, if they get money the can have anything they want. The limitation is on their bank account.
Once they understand this, they understand that anything they do for not paying the musical rights is illegal, they welcome you for proposing alternative solution.
Front the lawyer point of you , you should not even mention the "if you do this , do not mention my name", because it implies you are encouraging illegal activity while perfectly knowing the case.
The customer can always say he dos not knew it was illegal and that the "guy who made the movie advised us to proceed like this".

Sick to the back of my teeth because we have to pay so much for all these songs yet people are using torrents to download illegally and millions of websites hosting pirated software, movies, games, music etc.

If anything the work we do promotes the artist! You always get people asking, that song is nice, who is it by!?

So, if I want to make a video for one of my songs, I'll just use your video footage cause it's good for you cause you'll get PR from it if people ask who's shot the footage... Thanks, that'll save me some money when it's time to make our next video!

I'm sick to the back of my teeth because I have to pay so much for all this video footage yet people are using torrents to download illegally and millions of websites hosting pirated software, movies, games, music etc.

The discussion here has been interesting, especially as it pertains to the legal aspects of using music in the audio track. Just thought I'd throw out a few more thoughts.

First, to make an assumption, can one assume that a couple who hires a videographer (or videography company) to record their wedding tend to be financially slightly better off than someone who doesn't? And if so, then would it seem that they would want to protect themselves from a lawsuit?

If a professional videographer wants to market and sell a product (wedding video) then it would seem that it would be a good business practice to also protect ones self from a lawsuit but going through the appropriate process to obtain any necessary rights to the music audio soundtrack. At first glance (and second glance), this process appears to be a quagmire. The confusion comes about based on various countries and their copyright laws and also what copyright one wants to obtain. This site has some definition of the different rights: Iamusic.com: Music Licenses & Copyrights (http://www.iamusic.com/articles/copyright.html)

Selling one's services:
Part of selling is service is to show the client that they are getting a good value for their money. In the case of copyrighted music then one could show that the proper process was used and the legal rights were obtained; hence, they (and you) are protected. Sure, it will cost a little bit more but isn't it worth it to not worry about some big legal firm coming after you (your client)?

There are several ways this could be shown like by using paper or, maybe better yet, showing the rights in the product that is given to the client. This could be done via credits in the video or provided as a separate file.

Personally, I'd recommend including something in the video as a minimum. As an aside, I am also a musician and on my sheet music at the bottom of the front page there is always something that tells who the publisher is and who owns the rights to the sheet music. There is, I think, always something that says how it may be used, like not for profit, or something like that. Something like this, stating the terms of use, could be easily added somewhere in the video.

Example on one sheet:
© Copyright 1954 Robbins Music Corporation, New York, N.Y.
This arrangement © Copyright 1968 Robbins Music Corporation, N.Y.
International Copyright Secured Made in U.S.A. [this was on the printed sheet music]
All Rights Reserved Including Public Performance For Profit
Any arrangement or adaption of this composition without the consent of the owner is an infringement of copyright

At the top of the sheet:
Words by [author]
Music by: [composer]

Also note "Cue Sheets" on the above link. For a video with several tracks something along these lines might be used.

There is also a company called "Motion Picture Licensing Corporation" at this link MPLC | Motion Picture Licensing Corporation (http://www.mplc.org/index/worldwide)
Maybe something like this is what us videographers should be looking into.

An Internet search for licensing reveals there are numerous "organizations" that are in the "business" of "protecting" artists. Of course they all do it for some money up front and a little percentage after that, right? Somehow while writing this the word "Mafia" comes to mind only in this case it is like death from a thousand cuts.

Thats all well in good, and I'm more than aware of the reasons for being legal etc...

Truth is...

Out of my local competitors, some of us use musicbed etc, but quite a few just use whatever (including, the most popular and expensive guy).

It is a fact that if you are the same price as another guy, the client will choose the guy who is allowing them their favourite song.

I'd say nearly every client of mine queries the music part of my T&Cs.

I explain the law, and reluctantly they usually say 'oh, oh well, I suppose thats ok then'. I don't like that my client is a bit down about something even if they go ahead and book. I'd rather they were happy and excited.

Back to my local market - aside from the fact we hear about these big high profile law suits - I've no knowledge of anyone in my locality getting in any trouble for it.

What are the actual stats?

How many people on here know of somebody in their locality who has fallen foul?

If the law has to be so stringent, its a pity in can't be enforced better in order to allow a level playing field and reduce the temptation.

Clive why not simply purchase a prs licence for your delivered dvds? Then your clients can have their favourite music - does the prs not operate in NI?

Why would you bother licensing for a personal home-viewed DVD. Wheres the risk of being sued there?
I put my highlights online, and as already highlighted, the PRS license doesn't cover that - and I think the email I got from PRS was wrong.

Hi Clive - but are you telling the couples they can't have their favourite songs on their DVD? sure the PRS licence doesn't cover online publishing but they can have what they want on the DVDs. If you want to remain legal then get a licence for each wedding.

I can see how avoiding this seems a no risk option but what if some of your clients took it upon thmeselves to upload to facebook/you tube whatever and somehow landed you in it?

Just buy licences and put the £7 on your package prices, and then stick to royalty free music for your online advertising but also mention popular music choice is available for the DVDs.

Pete